Quote:
Originally Posted by jericohs@cottage
You're suggestions are highly uncompetitive.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jericohs@cottage
You're suggestions are highly uncompetitive.
Is there an echo in here? This whole post is highly uncompetitive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenos
But if your talking about my post...
I'd extend a friendly wager and say that my crappy pauper deck would mop over some tier one decks if i'm playing against you, lol.
Heh, at one of the places I played at I would hear similar wagers, yet the guys that made the boasts didn't ever want to ante anything and would regualrly lose the match.
Said deck is a strictly inferior version of normal burn and burn is a very easy matchup for a lot of decks in the format...so by my skills of deduction, that leaves your budget deck in a pretty vicarious position at an edge that tumbles into the endless abysmal chasm of nubcake.
On an on topic note, perhaps taking a look at the blue and red gargadon decks that were semi-popular in type two and seeing if you can sort of adapt them might be a good starting point for an aggro/control burn deck.
I haven't given it much thought until now, but maybe take a sort of fish approach to it and have a few very efficient creatures that answer and beat at the same time and have them combined with a bit of search and a few burn spells for reach/removal.
Goyf presents an obvious problem to this strategy, but submerge, threads and spellsnare could help alleviate the massive pain in the ass that is goyf...maybe. Then again, if someone wants to play UR fish, they might aswell just throw in nuaghts and tinkermages and then they will have a deck that already exists. I think UR control is pretty much doomed.
A whole fucking paragraph to regurgitate what has already been said. This idea sucks. I think you speak out of your hat most of the time while the rest of the time you speak of plain white facts that everybody already knows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
Warned for flaming
-PR
So sans thread degeneration, the main point we've reached is U/R doesn't have a sufficient way to deal with goyf, right? So maybe we should focus on that, as it truely is a deal breaker. Nevy's Disk is obvious, but slow. Same with Powder Keg. Are we really gonna end up cracking fetches for snow-covered basics and casting Skred?
Has anyone considered EE in-depth? Off the bat it seems perfect, but I'm concerned that U/R Control without an active Counter-Top is on shaky legs, and EE and CB do not play well together. Is it worth it though? Or am I overestimating the deck's dependence on CB?
Skred is slower than powderkeg to an extent when you want to deal with a goyf because you will need to have have four or so land down to kill one.
I think a counter is the best solution for early ones and aside from bounce, which isn't really worth touching upon EE or keg are the best solutions.
may be we should stay more Ucontrollish with Vedalken Shackles and use red just as finisher?
in my opinion this deck is not crap at all, we can brutally own Threshold Goblin and Storm/ANT deck...
but we need a good idea for both the stack and the permanent control, followed by a solid, recurring finisher.
Finishers... hmmmQuote:
Originally Posted by Poron
well redzone finishers include:
Oona, Meloku, Morphling
(arranged by my preference)
Oona is the 1st pick but not by very much. The drawback from Meloku is outweighed by its low low cost of 5cc.
Otherwise, we could try a storm based version like swath/grapeshot or brainfreeze.
I like swath/grapeshot (what was known as the perilous storm combo aka originally called Billy Plans.dec) It was played in standard at the time. And reflects the ext swath combo minus the 4 Mind's Desire. The engine worked just as well since casting perilous storm at your opp end step to sac hatching plans would net you 5 cards + 1 draw. Usually, enough to carry out a deadly grapeshot kill.
Gaddock is not a problem without Mind's Desire.
Cards that own the deck are: Stifle and ...
Here's a decklist for reference:
Morikatsu Storm
A Standard deck, by Ren Ishikawa
2nd place at a Nationals tournament in Tokyo, Japan on 2007-09-02
As reported at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...pnat07/welcome
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maindeck:
Artifacts
4 Claws Of Gix (Not a legal Standard card)
4 Lotus Bloom (Not a legal Standard card)
Enchantments
4 Hatching Plans (Not a legal Standard card)
4 Pyromancer's Swath (Not a legal Standard card)
Instants
4 Perilous Research (Not a legal Standard card)
4 Remand (Not a legal Standard card)
3 Repeal (Not a legal Standard card)
Sorceries
3 Empty The Warrens (Not a legal Standard card)
4 Grapeshot (Not a legal Standard card)
4 Rite Of Flame (Not a legal Standard card)
Basic Lands
3 Island
Lands
2 Calciform Pools (Not a legal Standard card)
2 Hallowed Fountain (Not a legal Standard card)
2 Sacred Foundry (Not a legal Standard card)
4 Shivan Reef
4 Steam Vents (Not a legal Standard card)
1 Tolaria West (Not a legal Standard card)
Legendary Lands
4 Flagstones Of Trokair (Not a legal Standard card)
Sideboard:
2 Brine Elemental (Not a legal Standard card)
2 Court Hussar (Not a legal Standard card)
3 Martyr Of Ashes (Not a legal Standard card)
2 Vesuvan Shapeshifter (Not a legal Standard card)
2 Logic Knot (Not a legal Standard card)
1 Pact Of Negation (Not a legal Standard card)
1 Grand Arbiter Augustin Iv (Not a legal Standard card)
1 Teferi, Mage Of Zhalfir (Not a legal Standard card)
1 Empty The Warrens (Not a legal Standard card)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMO replace Lotus Bloom for LED. Reason, your already going to lose your hand to swath anyhow. Antoher reason, its a Glass Jaw.dec, you spend all your ammo for one kill. The light control is used early game to help you stall and sculpt a few pieces. Also, control elements are there to force your hatching plans into play vs control. I love playing the deck. It was pretty resilient since lists usually ran Gigadrowse.
Stop with the 1.x decks and what the fuck are you gibbering about with your finisher creatures?? You have them in reversed:
Oona has a conditional milling ability, which might get you an two creatures for three mana in a fairly multi-coloured format. Vulnearble to almost every single type of cheap targetted removal, blue which means it can be REB'd AND she costs six mana. For all intents and purposes her damage is likely to be like this 6->7->8->9, which totals out to thirty. That is pretty good. Too bad you have to waste counterspells on protecting her AND she goes online a turn later than the other two beaters, which means in effect she does twenty-one, not thirty.(Simply put:Oona fucking sucks and has a mill effect that will reward you with ONE (1) token for THREE mana in many situations, with a milling effect that is almost worth not mentioning at all.)
Meloku is a decent creature with ability that costs you land drops and gives you little flying forks in return. Not bad. Costs five, which is not bad either. Two power...hmmm, that kind of sucks, but he grows by one every turn, technically if I don't want to limit my lands too much. So that means that his damage will ideally lok like this: 3->4->5->6, which totals out to eighteen. Cool, that is decent. One minor problem though: he is fucking easy to kill with any type of targetted removal and the dorks are easily killed by deeds and the likes and leaves you with a two damage a turn clock. Next?(Simply put: Meloku is okay, but extremely weak on it's own and extremely easy to kill.)
(Please note that all of the creatures listed thus far have one glaring issue: all attempts to kill them will require you to expend one of your counterspells...that is BAD when you have very few creatures and you are investing a fair amount of mana into a creature that is played relatively late in the game.)
The unspectacular morphling. Let's see...he costs me colourless mana to hit harder, a blue to give evasion and has a toughness that is only limited by how much mana I have, not that it is really useful, but that is an option anyway. Everything it does costs me one mana, which is kind of a bummer, I guess. It sure would be lame if my opponent could kill him easily, but wait... They can't because you can make him untargettable for a blue mana, which eliminates the need to waste counters on protecting him, which pretty much makes up for the fact you have to pay for all of his abilities. It seems he can also untap, for the odd time you might want him untapped. Morphling flies in for 5->5->5->5, which has an obvious total, though realistically, you should only need to swing for eighteen or so, due to fetchlands and such. Please note that you don't get bonus points for killing an opponent more, so max damage isn't an issue too often.
(/SARCASM ON) With all of that said, morphling is clearly the last pick out of three possible kill creatures. (/SARCASM OFF)
Seriously, dude...seriously.
You have to play a sort of speed landstill.
A decent clock with at least 6 manlands, some burn spells, isochron scepter some bounce and the cb/top engine. And other landstill cards like crucible of worlds , EE , tfk instead of FoF. Pyroclasm, Reb and some artefacts hate in side^.
I believe this is the only way =).
Or maybe a Muc with only a little red splash to play Pyroclasm and EE and side otpions...
Try the wand of the elements it's overwhelming in late game^
I know this is probably lame, but maybe use a UR Landstill route with Meloku and Seismic Assault as finishers.
Or use Swans+Chain Lightning+Conflagrate/Lightning Storm as a finisher. Or even better, play Swan Thresh in the first place.
@Mordel
I ordered them exactly as you did. Seriously, dude...seriously. Call me "the DUDE". I'd rather you call me by my forum name; Jericohs.
1st Oona,
2nd Meloku
3rd Morphling
4th Mahamoti, Djinn (unh, so 90's ;-))
@Chokin
I thought we were staying away from that idea... And, sticking with NEW developments for UR? Plus, I think the OP wanted something more "Budget".
Anyhow, I think he isn't interested in Swan/Slaver or Canadian Thresh since he would likely of called this forum "SEISMIC SWAN or SLAVER or CANADIAN THRESH" ;-) ya digg?
About finishers: note that UR has access to some combos (and you can build in some of them, not necessarily one):
- Swans + chain (compact); (already mentioned, but still)
- painter + stone (compact);
- Niv-mizzet + curiosity (+ show and tell / some reanimate);
- izzet guildmage + intuition (3x rite of flame) (compact);
and some huge finishing options:
- dreadnought + stifle / other staff
- welder + staff.
The last one means a very specific kind of deck though.
Note about staff: show and tell comboes nicely with Swans (eot, turn 2/3), dreadnought and "welder guys" also and intuition do the same with ..ehm all of them, I think.
This means that you don't necessarily have to think about "how to beat goofy" but can think about "what good temporal disruption does UR have?" because if you have good disruption, you can wait (a little?) until you win.
But the thing is I'm not sure that I do understand what "UR control" we're talking about now?
I think it's a question mostly for Poron, but not only.
UR has a first turn Stiflenought off of Simian Spirit Guide and a blue land. It has a first turn Magus of the Moon off of Ancient Tomb and Simian Spirit Guide. It has access potentially to Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void off of Ancient Tomb. All of the above potentially backed by Force of Will and all potentially having blue draw to make up the difference a bit down the road if they fail.
One of the things about UR that seems obvious is that the cheap under-costed threats are also underwhelming in their effect. The cheap under-costed filter and draw spells on the other hand are golden as long as they are paired up with appropriate threat to go find.
Probably the way to go in a UR deck is to have some fast disruption available early on and then go find the more appropriately costed bombs as the opponent is trying to break your disruption. Ancient Tomb really needs to be in a UR theme because the spells that will have dramatic effect both as disruption and as finishers are going to require more mana out of sync with the game state than a normal deck requires.
Yes, this is effectively saying that UR Control is going to need to look more like Dragon Stompy than Landstill, however what you get out of a UR Dragon Stompy is more predictability and more recoverability because of the blue draw and filter and because of at least a limited number of counters to potentially back up the bombs.
-> Take a look at my UR Landstill again. All your ideas in a synergetic shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
But it seems that poron wants to play Mono Red Burn with blue splash for inferior cards...?
Threshold and ANT? No way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Your deck plays 2 contradicting concepts (Burn & Control with CBalance). If you try to burn out your opponent, you will run out of gas by drawing (mutiple) Counterbalance and (multiple SDT). You also don't have enough cardquality to ensure you can assemble the CB-Top engine effitiently. At the same time, CB-Top requires a lot of mana. It will be hard to play well-timed Burnspells.
Another reason why you definitely won't beat Threshold is that a resolved Tarmogoyf is already cousing you some problems, BUT Nimble Mongeese are the real gg threat. Nimble Mongoose = gg. Just like against MUC. But MUC plays Explosives/Powder Keg. You have 0 solutions against Mongoose.
Therefore, Nimble Mongoose = gg.
Give reading the reply again a try...You should be able to understand the reply now because I included little summaries in case you are easily distracted by things while you are reading.Quote:
Originally Posted by jericohs@cottage
Here are some further hints if you are still having issues:
Hint: Each card's name is accompanied by a fairly short paragraph.
Hint#2: Traditionally, a rebuttal will address issues in the same order they are introduced.
Happy readings, dude.
Hey, has anyone explained to you that saying dude over and over again is the same as saying "like" and you understand how annoying that is, right? It also suggest a lack of respect and a general trend for being a tree-hugging hippie! Get a haircut and a job. Next.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mordel
Your sarcasm a side, your post suggests that the best blue creature is still morphling, then that is true. But I wrote "(by my preference)" No need to be so callous. If shroud is the only credit to your argument, you got me. Morphling is the only blue creature with shroud...
Meloku and Oona to a lesser extent are the only blue creatures seeing play in Legacy (both currently in MUC - Mono Blue Control). Also, i forgot Sea Drake. I like sea drake but would never shell out 40$ for one.
The best blue creatures right now are Tarmogoyf and Phyrexian Dreadnought. There's a long dropoff after them in terms of creatures actually played in decks in which the majority of cards are blue. Probably the best actual blue creature, in terms of what sees play, is Trinket Mage although I keep expecting Faerie Stompy to come back in a big way and that would add Sea Drake back to the list.
I agree 100%Quote:
Originally Posted by FoolofaTook
Perhaps in light of how terrible a great deal of your insights, repeated personal attacks and poorly thought-out opinions are, I maybe, just maybe have very little respect for you..Quote:
Originally Posted by jericohs@cottage
The key issue with morphling is that it does what it does without sacrificing land drops or any long-lasting costs to be paid(aka:bouncing lands or protecting with counters). It does what it does and is very consistent and forces an opponent to work pretty hard to stop it or die in four swings, period. Shroud is obviously important extremely important, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by jericohs@cottage
I am not saying that you are wrong here, but on deckcheck, I seem to see mostly morphlings, efreets and the odd sower/Kira combination..there is the odd single copy of Meloku or Oona, which I find extremely questionable, but I will leave that be. The inescapable fact is that they are generally accompanied with more copies of morphling. I suspect the primary reason for Meloku or Oona being included is a safeguard against extirpate.Quote:
Originally Posted by jericohs@cottage
The aforementioned best blue(but not blue) creatures are definitely accurate for the current state of legacy as I see it, but it is somewhat out of context because the basis of this debate is for a deck that is basically draw-go with burn(or at least to my understanding it is). Draw-go, itself is apparently more viable than I thought, but not too popular, so the classic blue control creatures are obviously going to be very under-represented as far as most popular(which in most cases translates to best). The virtues of the list of cards that I was/am addressing are based on a slower control deck, not a faerie stompy, dreadstill etc etc deck's need for utility or smashing face fast.
On the topic of the U/R deck: Landstill or Something with dreadnaught is probably the best direction to take it. Draw-go isn't doing that great and a version of the deck that runs red for burn probably wouldn't fare much better.