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That's the whole point of Parcher saying you should strip their hand before he resolves. The turn before, use one of your 4 Cabal Therapies (that should almost definitely be in the library by now) and sac it for Force of Will, or StoP if you suspect it (or Stifle if you really suspect that). Then, BAM you have a 9/7 in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
Parcher, that was such a good primer that I might actually have to play this in a tournament.
@Lukas: Thanks, everything you wrote sounds correct, even down to Study making horrendous mulligan decisions. The part where the same theory doesn't apply is running eleven lands for the same reason. Unlike Dredgers in most cases, having more than one land in your opening hand is usually bad thing.
I thinks everyone is missing the point of Gargadon. His use as a beater is by far the least of his uses. The choke points of this deck that are most targeted regardless of sideboard cards are: 1) Remove Bridges from game, and 2) Remove Ichorids from game. Crypt and Relic can still do this, but as always, your opponent has to get them before you win. Just the same with Jailer, Leyline, Extirpate, etc. Gargadon shuts down every other way to stop this recursion. Fanatic? I still get tokens. StP? Coming back anyway. Explosives? Well, here comes Gargadon. They can save their removal for Gargadon and stil protect it from discard? Then they die to Ichorids. As long as you play to preserve your board presence, and are aware of your opponent's counter-measures, he lets you either avoid them, or attack from so many angles that you overwhelm them. Most removal hits Gargadon. Counter-magic too. Hell, even Stifle can stop him. So what? If they are doing that, you still have the generally most unstoppable plan in the format still working against them.
Great op Parcher. Your the man! Good lookin on the gargadon tech. I was just curious about your opinion on somethin. How do you feel about revilark or protean hulk? I have tested hulk and if it hits the yard you can win on the spot usually (getting like two pimps and the zealot) Revillark is a bit more situational but it seems good too. Am I just being drawn in by the danger of cute things? Anyone feel free to chime in, I am just wondering cause I know how you feel about woodfall duder and angel of D, and it isnt just a big ugly monster it seems like they would slightly increase your chance of winning a little bit. Just curious how you all felt about those guys.
The truth is that I've never played Protean Hulk, nor Reveillark in Ichorid.
Hulk, strategically, makes no sense. He's probably run as a 1-of. So you will most often have to mill a great deal of your deck to get him into the 'yard. Then, you have to have a sacrifice outlet. Then, you are expected to still find enough creatures remaining in your library to make the sacrifice even useful, much less as good as the standard options. No sir, I don't like it.
Reveillark is far better, but may be overkill in most cases. If you are bringing back FKZ with Rev, you could already bring back FKZ. Now getting both, as well as at least one other creature, may give you the win in cases when you don't have enough zombies to do so otherwise. But in general situations where that might come up, I'd rather have a Chosen or Inkwell that can provide pressure without other creatures. Also, you have to have enough targets to be relevant, and have a sacrifice outlet when Rev hits play. That's going to be likely, but an additional consideration nonetheless. I couldn't see it replacing anything main, but if you have extra slots it shouldn't hurt.
I think Parchers list is quite solid. The only important change I would make is the following...
-1 ichorid
-1 firestorm
+1 dread return
+1 unmask
It is my experience that 3 dread returns are necessary and it just seems silly to only run 3 unmasks if you insist on running a full playset of therapies. When I ran ichorid without unmask I found 3 to be the optimal number of therapies, preferring other cards to the 4th, but in a deck with unmask 4 of each seems too good to pass up. To be honest though I really want to try and squeeze in a third deep analysis in a list running that much discard.
Other than that I would probably run sage over witness, but that is just a personal preferance. For all I know witness could be better. To me though sage is almost always better at digging which is what I want it to do, while witness can help in many other situations.
I am also not sold on gargadon in the sb and would probably prefer needle or something of that nature. I have never been a fan of ancestors chosen either. I would rather run angel of despair or something. I have actually won a number of games from angel blowing up glacial chasm, confinement, or ghostly prison.
Anyway here is my list for the moment...
Creatures (24)
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
Sorcery (16)
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
3 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis
Enchantments (4)
4 Bridge from Below
Instant (1)
1 Brainstorm
Artifacts (4)
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Land (11)
4 Gemstone Minne
3 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
Sideboard (15)
4 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
1 Whispermare
1 Angel of Despair
1 Cabal therapy
My most recent change was dropping a therapy for brainstorm. In testing 8 discard effects seemed like too much and I was also frustrated with a lot of my draws not being all that explosive. I tried a third deep analysis first, but it doesn't really do too much to justify. I then threw in a careful study, but after a few games of drawing it I knew it had no place. It is good at digging for answers postboard, but that is about it. It is fairly weak at doing everything else and can really screw you at times if you draw narcs or other such things. This gave me the idea of trying brainstorm. It basically functions as a 5th breakthrough and has been pretty good so far.
Thank you for responding so quickly just curious how you felt about those guys! As far as cutting an ichorid from the deck...I dont know about that I heard somewhere that Ichorid is pretty good... The more chances you have to reanimate in multiples the better and the extras can feed each other. Plus that sexy blue tounge...
@Parcher: Fantastic primer. I spent my morning run mulling over this list in my head and I really love the sideboard innovations. This is making me dig around in my old Ichorid staples to see what I still have. Haven't picked up the deck in aeons.
Wispmare's point over Erase, I assume, is that midgame it can be Dread Returned to handle random crap like Ghostly Prison? Hadn't thought of this (Or actually I think it hadn't been printed when I last played Ichorid, I can't remember which.) The singleton Firestorm I also assume is made much more viable by the fact that you run Witness over Cephalid Sage.
Where does Ancestor's Chosen help you out the most? And do you ever find yourself wanting a third Deep Analysis maindeck?
Wispmare is played over Erase because you "evoke" Zombie-Tokens when you have a Bridge in the 'yard
Chosen is against fast Aggro-Burn-Decks like Zoo, or decks like Combo to get you out of Tendrils Range
YawG
That too. Nice. Why isn't Ingot Chewer played for similar reasons? Enchantments far more threatening than Artifacts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
Interesting. My thought to both of said matchups is to just outrace the former and outrace or disrupt the latter. I can see where I might like it against Zoo, but I'm not sold on it. I'll assemble the deck and give it a whirl though.Quote:
Chosen is against fast Aggro-Burn-Decks like Zoo, or decks like Combo to get you out of Tendrils Range
Enchantments are more evil... you can't win against Leyline, and against Propaganda or Humility , it's nice to get some Tokens...
I don't see any dangerous Artifacts besides Crypt and Relic, and they can be Needled, or like Parcher said "Gargadon-Tech" them to win.
First post disappeared...
Furthermore, Wispmare gives +1/+1 to an animated Grave-Troll and can be put back on top of your library with a sacrificed Golgari Thug.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
I played in Vestal yesterday running this list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Eternal Winess
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Unmask
2 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Gemstone Minne
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
Sideboard:
4 Greater Gargadon
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm
2 Wispmare
1 Ancestor's Chosen
I lost my first round due to my opponent topdecking a STP in G3 the turn after I therapy him naming STP. I had a returned Gargadon on board with 2 zombie tokens(which were 1/1 due to an engineered plauge). The win would have been in my hand the next turn if he had not drawn STP. I started the day by losing my first 2 matches, then went 2-0 my next 3 rounds. Then got beat down by mulligans and harsh matchups in rounds 6+7. I proceeded to drop after round 7 since I needed sleep.
Overall the list is amazing, I think next time I play it I will be doing -1 Unmask, -1 Coliseum, +1 Gemstone, +1 Dread Return. Wispmares in tbe board may become Ingot Chewers or Ancient Grudges. I brought in vapors and wispmares against anything that ran black and they all did not run Leyline. The only deck I would expect to see SB leyline anymore is the mirror match. I just felt like the Wispmares could have been something better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
Don't you mean graveyard? I thought Cabals were main decked...?
I played the following list in vestal...
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Gemstone Minne
4 City of Brass
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Bridge from Below
1 Brainstorm
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Unmask
2 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
2 Deep Analysis
Here's a quick report...
Round 1 I face dragon stompy. Game one is a quick win for me after he doesn nothing to disrupt me. Game 2 he gets a turn one trinisphere which hampers my plans a bit, but I just draw and discard. He drops a chalice for zero and starts to kill me slowly. I basically misplay the turn before I die chosing to dredge instead of draw even though if I drew a land I could firestorm his board. For some reason dredging seemed better to me at the time even though I needed to hit 2 bridges of one dredge to even be alive. Game 3 I win handily as I unmask away his engineered explosives and combo off a few turns later.
Round 2 I get paired up against Bryant Cook with TES. I know what he is playing so I know I need very aggressive draws or disruption. I keep a hand that has 2x LED, deep analysis, brainstorm, dredger, land and something else. I go for the turn one win and completely fizzle. I do get some therapies off, but his hand is still quite strong. A few turns later he goes for the diminishing returns win and it looks like it's over, but his draws are crap and my ichorids finish him off next turn. Game two I keep a slower hand that has disruption. He mulligans and I am able to strip his hand of business. I don't put too much pressure on and he finds Ad Nauseum and wins. Game three I get the turn one kill
Round 3 I get paired up against loam. Game one I mull a lot. My hand is ok if I hit a land which I don't. I have brainstorm in hand so I decide to pretend I'm playing combo and I spend time every turn pretending to go through the possible win in my head. Once I get to 8 cards I discard brainstorm and the then the following turn I once again do some counting and decide I can't combo off so I scoop. I don't remember if there were two or three games, but I do remember getting him down to 1 after some aweful dredging just to have him kill me with a gigantic crusher and goyf after he swept my board away.
Round 4 I face thresh and as expected I mull to oblivion game 1. Woohoo. Game two is very close too since he counters my draw effects and I am just left with 1 dredge per turn. All three ichorids were in the last 12 cards of my deck though so it takes me forever to find them and kill him. Game three goes to time.
Round 5 I face canadian thresh. I can't really remember this match except that he doesn't get much disruption excepting counters and he tried to race me. I play around fire/ice and lightning bolt and pull it out.
Round 6 I face mono black. I can't remember the name of the deck. Anyway game one is easy since he has no way to stop me. Game two he extirpates twice. I can't remember what he hit, but you really need three extirpates to stop this deck, which is why extirpate is weak.
Round 7 Everything starts going downhill from here. I get paired against merfolk. They tell us we can start playing and I keep a very solid 7 and we are off. Then guess what. REPAIRING. And i;m facing the same player, but now he knows what i'm playing, which is a huge disadvantage to me. And of course I mull to 5. Great. Just great. Game two I have another decent hand and I try and go for the turn two win instead of starting to combo turn one. Looking back this was probably the wrong play and I really started getting angry in between rounds about this. I basically had the following hand... thug, putrid imp, bridge, unmask, land, breakthrough. I basically decided if imp lands next turn I can dredge, hopefully hitting another dredger, then unmask him and combo off. What I should have done was just unmask right off the bat removing bridge. I just didn't want to remove bridge and my other plan seemed quite good at the time.
Round 8 At this point I am already angry and tired and can't concentrate. I almost punt game one by playing around force even though I had just therapied that turn him and saw he had no counters or any way of finding any. In the end I pull through though. Game two is more of the same with me misplaying everywhere thinking I have it in the bag after putting needle on relic and stripping his hand. I overextend and am introduced to the world of amazing topdecks and tormods crypt the turn before ichorids kill him. Game three involves mulliganing a lot and him having a very aggressive hand.
Hey Guys,
I've been playing the deck for a while now and I'm having trouble coming up with a decent sideboard for My janky Meta. We don't see much hate but when its around its usually in the form of Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus or 1 Death and Taxes deck packing Samurai of the Pale Curtain. The Meta I play in is mostly things like tribal decks and type 2 decks with a few legacy cards thrown in. Any suggestions You guys could make for a board for this kind of meta would be greatly appreciated. Here is the list I'm running at the moment.
LAND
4 Cephilid Colesium
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
DUDES
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
1 Eternal Witness
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
STUFF
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Unmask
2 Deep Analysis
2 Dread Return
SIDEBOARD
4 Firestorm
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Pithing Needle
3 Chain of Vapor
Leyline is against which deck???Quote:
Originally Posted by davidboan
The Meta I play in is mostly things like tribal decks and type 2 decks with a few legacy cards thrown in.
Leyline comes in vs the mirror (L.E.Dless), reanimator and pretty much anything with recursion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill
I saw a guy once running Ichorid with Compulsion. What do you guys think about that? Probably too slow?
Running LED and Compulsion wouldnt work out so great, even in the LEDless build it seems slow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi