Why do you want 4 Scuttlemutt? Aren't they really bad? A 3-mana BoP?
Didn't you have the feeling that the list is unfocused? (e.g. Painter in play but no Blasts in hand or the other way round?
4 Scarecrone also look like a lot.
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Why do you want 4 Scuttlemutt? Aren't they really bad? A 3-mana BoP?
Didn't you have the feeling that the list is unfocused? (e.g. Painter in play but no Blasts in hand or the other way round?
4 Scarecrone also look like a lot.
They work fairly well, considering they take the place of Sylvan Safekeeper in many situations, and come out turn 2 fairly often.Quote:
Why do you want 4 Scuttlemutt? Aren't they really bad? A 3-mana BoP?
The same argument can be made for any Painter deck. The fact is, it's not very often that you keep a hand with more than one blast that doesn't have a Painter, and having to mull once more occasionally is hardly a bad thing. Moreover, it really helps to ensure that you land SoF game 1 against permission decks.Quote:
Didn't you have the feeling that the list is unfocused? (e.g. Painter in play but no Blasts in hand or the other way round?
They work quite well with the number of scarecrows in the deck. They will randomly win the game by allowing you to draw two or three cards when you need an answer. They also return your creatures to play if, for instance, your Welders got extirpated or something of that sort.Quote:
4 Scarecrone also look like a lot.
I could see replacing some Scuttlemutts and Scarecrones, I'm just not sure what with, considering the ridiculous synergy with Reaper King and the other scarecrows makes them much better than they first appear.
I really like the idea for this deck, could maybe Magus of the Moon be an inclusion?Quote:
Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo
I like Magus. It completely destroy certain Thresh and Landstill builds, as well as somewhat hindering any ANT build that lacks basics. The only problem I have with it is that it turns Tree of Tales into a mountain, which prevents me from using it with Welder. I'll definitely test it and see what happens.Quote:
I really like the idea for this deck, could maybe Magus of the Moon be an inclusion?
Also, a more recent list, as testing has invalidated a lot of my previous reasoning...
Main
3x Wooded Foothills
3x Windswept Heath
4x Taiga
4x Savannah
4x Tree of Tales
2x Forest
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Grindstone
4x Goblin Welder
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Painter's Servant
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scuttlemutt
2x Scarecrone
2x Heap Doll
1x Reaper King
1x Grim Poppet
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1x Anger
1x Platinum Angel
1x Squee
1x Gaddock Teeg
I switched to splashing white a few days ago after playing and losing something like thirty games in a row to ANT, as well as a good number against UW Landstill and various Countertop decks. Pridemage and Teeg make those matchups winnable in a lot of cases, and they're generally all-around good cards. I'm not sure if it's the right thing to do, but I'm fiddling around with it.
The sideboard got completely scrapped, I'm not sure what is going there now. Maybe some interesting non-creature artifacts to move around with Goblin Welder, like Ensnaring Bridge.
No, it doesn't. Tree of Tales is still an artifact. Moon only changes the subtype, not the supertype.Quote:
Originally Posted by HPB_Eggo
It would be:
Artifact Land - Mountain
Add {R} to your mana pool.
Makes sense. I guess I didn't quite think that one out. :tongue:Quote:
No, it doesn't. Tree of Tales is still an artifact. Moon only changes the subtype, not the supertype.
I would think Magus would be very good in a RG build, so I guess I'll have to test that. I'm not sure if the loss of combo-hate is worth it, though. I very much so dislike losing because I don't have any cards to win with.
I've not yet tested the deck my I have just a question that could clarify some your choices.
You play creature like Tarmogoyf & Qasali that offer you an aggro plan and you need just :r: for Welder or Jaya so why don't you try to be more aggro trying to play Noble Hierarch instead of BoP?
Noble Hierarch could work but the deck is infact not light on R.
You need R for blasts and Jaya activation (double red to play Jaya). I think the deck doesn't really want to play aggro. You can aggro out like traditional RGBSA advantage with Goyf + Rofellos + Anger but you really want to play out Blasts/Jaya + Painter to lock your opponents out or win with Welder activations with Titan etc.
I'm going to piece up the deck for this weekend. I like the Reaper King idea. He's actually playable with Rofellos. I would probably just play with Scarecrone and Heap Doll since they actually give some card advantage by themselves. Scuttlemutt is really bad lol.
My immediate response is that it is really, really important to be able to play Welder, even with only green mana sources. I'm fairly sure that will hold up in testing, but I'll try it a few times and see what happens.Quote:
You play creature like Tarmogoyf & Qasali that offer you an aggro plan and you need just for Welder or Jaya so why don't you try to be more aggro trying to play Noble Hierarch instead of BoP?
I honestly think blasts are a bad idea outside of the sideboard. I used to think blasts were really good with Painter, but then I realized that drawing a hand with three blasts and no Painters was horrible. Blasts are amazing in the board, but really are dead often enough that it can be annoying, assuming your meta is not filled with blue decks.Quote:
You need R for blasts and Jaya activation (double red to play Jaya). I think the deck doesn't really want to play aggro. You can aggro out like traditional RGBSA advantage with Goyf + Rofellos + Anger but you really want to play out Blasts/Jaya + Painter to lock your opponents out or win with Welder activations with Titan etc.
Scuttlemutt's usefulness is really dependent on the meta. If there are lots of black decks, he can be very useful in protecting Painter/Welder from removal, as well as helping to actually cast Reaper King.Quote:
I'm going to piece up the deck for this weekend. I like the Reaper King idea. He's actually playable with Rofellos. I would probably just play with Scarecrone and Heap Doll since they actually give some card advantage by themselves. Scuttlemutt is really bad lol.
Grim Poppet is ridiculous good. I would say he's better than Triskellion, because he can remove creatures and still swing for 4 every turn, assuming Anger is in the 'yard, as well as activating Reaper King. If you're using Reaper King, you should play him.
Also, playing Sundering Titan and Reaper King seemed like overkill when I tested it. I would probably say running a second Reaper King is better than running them both. I never actually tested a build with two Kings, though, so I don't actually know.
Good luck at the tournament, btw. :wink:
Here's my latest list:
2 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tree of Tales
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
1 Mountain
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Goblin Welder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Painter's Servant
1 Rofellos
1 Trygon Predator
1 Jaya
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Scarecrone
1 Anger
1 Grim Poppet
1 Sundering Titan
1 Reaper King
4 Grindstone
4 Survival of the Fittest
3 Red Elemental Blast
4 Thirst for Knowledge
The scarecrow synergy has worked pretty well with Welding effects or survivalling out a Vindicative Painter every turn. Sometimes without Welder/Survival, the Scarecrow idea is too crappy. Titan is needed to kill many decks. Grim Poppet is great! Good suggestion.
4 Grindstones is definitely needed. They're welder baits anyway. You can also do the trigger Grindstone, weld out Grindstone for a Painter in the yard to win without Painter on board.
My list still packs 4 Thirst for Knowledge, just to keep the Welder-no Survival plan online. The carddraw has been great and I've no regrets. Without losing blue, I can run Trygons, which are huge with haste. Llawan in the SB is to deal with Zoo and fast aggro.
So far the deck's pretty consistent. I'll keep any hand with Survival + creature, any hand with Painter/Grindstone/Blasts, any hand with Goyf/Survival, any hand with TfK/Welder. I recommend that if you do drop blue, you need to run at least 5 blasts to back up your game. This is a mid-range control deck. Compared to regular Survival Welder, you have another win-condition with Painter, and therefore you can use your life to gamble, but you can't gamble with losing either engine, so blasts help achieve that.
My SB with the Scarecrow list is:
3 Pithing Needle
2 Heap Doll
3 Grips
3 Pyroblast
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Platinum Angel
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
I'm considering on moving the Angel in the MD. I'm still unsure if this does better than the non scarecrow list with Duplicant/Triskelion. I'm leaning towards the scarecrow list simply because there's already 4 non-dead Scarecrows (Painters). The only added Scarecrows are Grim Poppet which is good by himself, and Reaper King, which has a good inbuilt synergy with Welder and Survivaling a Vindicate Scarecrow every turn. I really don't like Scarecrone. I'm taking him out for Master Transmuter (cycling Titan, Poppets and Scarecrows is win-more but it does help win the game). You can also save your board with Transmuter, all at instant speed.
Trinket Mage is no longer needed with 4 Grindstone.
I need to get the janky scarecrow cards and a playset of Birds and 2 Grindstone to play this though. I tested on MWS against goblins, and it was very favorable matchup (thanks to Goyf) and how this owns non-control mid-range aggro. Zoo might be a problem actually. If you pack 5-7 blasts MD, Landstill should be favorable, otherwise it's not a favorable matchup until you get Titan out.
I also tested against Affinity. Survivavling and Welding out Plat Angel is great. And Trygon was MVP,together with Poppet and Reaper King lol.
Here's my homebrew decklist for last week (Welderstone Survival)
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Tree of Tales
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Goblin Welder
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Painter Servant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rofellos
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya
1 Trygon Predator
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Master Transmuter
1 Grim Poppet
1 Sundering Titan
1 Reaper King
4 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Survival of the Fittest
I went 2-2 with the list playing against:
Canadian Thresh (I won 2-0)
Game 1 I stabilized against his Land destruction and beats and I'm at 3 life. He needs a bolt to kill me. Survival resolved and in 3 turns, I ended the game with Sundering Titan and Reaper King beats.
Game 2 He kept a super aggro hand of 2 Goyfs 2 Mongoose I think. I baited my spells/Goyfs into removal and counter and resolved Painter Grindstone on turn 5.
Spanish ANT (0-2, super fast list)
Nothing here. Spanish list runs pure speed with 4 City of Traitors. He comboed off on turn 2 both games. This list may need Mindbreak Trap/Canonist to deal with it
Dredge (2-1)
Game 1 I won the game with turn 1 Grindstone, turn 2 Painter, turn 3 Grind.
Game 2 I had enough for lethal (Reaper King + 6/7 Goyf) but I made the mistake to discard and tutor squee to set myself up next turn where I could have kept a Red open for my REB (I sided 3 REBs in against Dredge. REB is critical in hitting Breakthroughs/Deep Analysis). Guess what, he Breakthroughs and reach critical mass and wins.
Game 3 Grim Poppet was MVP. Killing Ichorids on upkeep and Narcomoebas, ensuring he had no creatures in play. Crypt in reponse to Needle removed a Bridge, Dread Return and 2 dredgers. He dredged into some critical mass but without FKZ, he could not recover from my lethal attack next turn.
Pox (1-2, this was a close game)
Game 1 I won with Survival advantage.
Game 2 I could not survive against his land destruction and smallpox hurt a lot with Bop in play. I stabilized on 1 land and tutored for BoP every turn, but eventually he kills my manabase. By the time I recovered with Goyf, I was at 5 life facing beats from multiple factories and nether spirit
Game 3 Similar to game 2 but my hand was weaker.
The deck actually has potential. I can randomly draw into Painter/Stone and win (Eugene can testify how I won game 1 against Dredge with that). I can also draw up Goyfs and land earlier goyfs with BoP. The deck opens itself to Fire//Ice since the birds will die but I usually try not to open myself for 2for1s. Welder should not be played early game at all and should only be played if Anger is in the yard. Unless your opponent does not run too much pinpoint removal, you can play out Welder but there's really no point in having a 1/1 in play if there's nothing to weld things around.
SDT was good in finding combo with fetches, but I'm probably going to cut it for Chrome Mox. Survival is such a mana hungry deck that when I get Survival online, I NEVER used SDT. It has neat Welding tricks though since you can Tap draw a card and weld it out in response.
Pros of the deck:
- Attacks from MANY angles (hasty goyfs off Survival, Painterstone, Painter/Jaya, Welder shenanigans)
- High resiliency: Painterstone is really resilient with Welder since you can have just a Grindstone in play and Painter in the yard and activate Grindstone and Weld it out for a Painter and win with the trigger on the stack
- Fast: BoP really accelerates and if the deck draws either Survival or Painter/Stone, it's really sweet.
- Reaper King was great. 6/6 body and grabbing Painters off Survival to Vindicate is always a fun thing to do. That one slot is worth it, simply as a pin-point removal. you can think of him as a Duplicant for permanents.
Cons:
- Highly unoptimized list. I'm running blue for TfK, which are great, but in testing, a little too slow for my taste. I think my main reason for blue was to keep Trygon. Master Transmuter was USELESS even though her ability is pretty stupid. I'm either switching to the white/black list
- SDT was a little bad in the list. Chrome Mox would be much better for accelerating.
- Folds to combo
- Sideboard needs to be tweaked.
In light of today's tournament, this will be my eventual list:
White gives Enlightened Tutor, which seriously fetches ANY of the following
- Grindstone
- Painter's Servant
- Survival
If either engine gets online, it's easily GG.
The deck might need some REBs main to abuse Painter without Grindstone.
Here's the new list that I'll test possibly (maybe black with Discard is a better strategy against combo, but white can tutor up Canonist if needed to stall a little).
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Savannah
1 Plateau
4 Taiga
2 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Tree of Tales
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Goblin Welder
1 Quirion Ranger
4 Painter Servant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Rofellos
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Grim Poppet
1 Sundering Titan
1 Reaper King
3 Enlightened Tutor
4 Grindstone
3 Chrome Mox
4 Survival of the Fittest
SB:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 REB
3 Pyroblast
1 Heap Doll
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
Nice deck (still) and thanks for the report.
Some questions:
- Magus of the Moon: was he ever useful? Won he a game?
- Reaper King: better than Duplicant? You still need 2G to tutor and pay for Painter
- Grim Poppet over Triskelion? I like the reach which Triskelion gives against decks like Lands. But probably it's not needed due to Grindstone.
- Jaya: worth the slot? It seems like it uses much setup (Survival, Painter, much mana) and Reaper King does the same thing.
Does the deck feel more like a Survival or more like combo deck? I mean did you tempt to go off with Grindstone more often or do you rather want to go the Welder Survival route and win with card advantage and big beats (Titan, ...)?
Magus was never used against Canadian Thresh, Pox, ANT, Dredge.
He would techinically slow ANT/Dredge but it wouldn't work. As a Landstill player, he doesn't really do much since they have EE and basics and StP. He might be taken out of the MD. most likely to include 4 Blasts in the MD when I tweak my list. Unlike Imperial Painter, we don't have 7 Moon effects to consistently lock people out of the game. 1 Magus really doesn't do much. More testing has to be done to warrant him in.
My friend mentioned that Magus is a beating for Dredge. It doesn't stop them from Dredging but it slows them down a ton since they can no longer breakthrough and Coliseum. The time gained from the tempo allows you to combo out or find a Heap Doll to screw their plans.
Reaper King is indeed better than Duplicant, as far as the synergy goes with the deck. There are usually not many creatures you want to destroy. You have Goyf to back you up and you can win much faster than Welder Survival if you get painterstone online. Reaper King has the advantage on killing Enchantments (Counterbalance, Solitary Confinement), Artifacts (Null Rod, Pithing Needle), Creatures (tons of stuff), AND PLANESWALKERS.
And the nice thing is that with Welder, you don't really play him so you don't have to worry about him resolving. The flexibility of Reaper King for me is much better than Duplicant which only hits creatures which the deck isn't afraid anyway.
Jaya is a good lock. I haven't used her since I've gotten the combos out consistently and fast such that the lock isn't needed. If I had Survival out, I should be winning. She hasn't done much, but you should include her just simply because she's an out to a problem. It's the same deal with why Survival deck run a tutor box, because it gives the option on getting out of a troublesome spot. If you didn't have that spot, you'll lose to games.
Grim Poppet is good because he's a scarecrow. I have a Trisk in the board that I might use but never found the need. I never found the need on burning my opponent's face with Trisk since it's a win-more strategy with Welder. I'm sure that Welder is allowed to stick more than 1 turn in Legacy? (i.e. I doubt that in Legacy your opponents will let you weld Trisks in and out multiple times for fun). Grim Poppet is a much better one-time activation. Critically, a Trisk cannot kill a 4/5 goyf that is beating for lethal but Grim poppet is relevant because it shrinks Goyfs permanently, and one problem with the deck is against fast Zoo with big creatures.
The deck honestly plays more like a Survival deck, since if you have Survival, you can get out Welder Survival tricks and win, or get out Painter and lock them out with Reaper King/Jaya depending if you have Welder in play. The only nice thing in addition to traditional Welder Survival is that you can REALLY randomly win off Painterstone combo. And Survival helps get the combo if you have a Grindstone in play. If you don't have Survival and have Grindstone in play and Welder, then you can still do tricks around by letting them counter Servant with Grindstone in play, resolve welder and weld things out.
The deck is just really fun to play, and attacks from various angles. It's mainly a survival deck, but with a ton of backup plan. The only issue I have with the new white list is that it's prone to Countertop but I have 3 Grips and Pridemage to help that out. You can up the Pridemages MD if you're expecting tons of countertop.
Combo is a problem. Not sure if Canonist and Mindbreak Trap is enough to own. Seems at least viable to not lose turn 2 on the play. Although in my tournament, since I wasn't too used to playing my own creation, I didn't know how to side. I would recommend siding in (for the new white build):
3 Canonist
6 Blast
and board out the Welder Package. You really want to stall them and win with Painter Grindstone rather than Welder tricks which don't do much and is too slow. You want to fully rely on a resolved Painter to start screwing them with Blasts and win with Grindstone (via enlightened tutor or drawing them). Canonist would help buy a turn or 2, but as long as you resolve Painter, you're in much better shape. My mistake in my tourney was not boarding out the welder package.
I've been testing a white splash, and I can lend a few thoughts there...
Gaddock Teeg is remarkably good. Running one in the maindeck is a very good idea, as he can stop certain combo decks entirely, as well as prevent stuff like Engineered Explosives, Moat, Humility, and random Planeswalkers from hitting the table. Running him and Canonist together, along with the blasts, will probably make combo winnable.
Enlightened Tutor is a good card. However, the only list where I really appreciated it was one where I was running 2-3 Sensei's Divining Tops to take advantage of all the mana and shuffling effects this deck generates. It worked really well, but I didn't do enough testing to see if it was actually better than a more aggro list without either.
Qasali Pridemage is very good. I would run at least two, if not more.
I don't like Chrome Mox. More of a personal thing, I guess. If you're just looking to speed up the combo, run LED instead, as it both assists you in getting creatures into the graveyard without Survival as well as paying for Grindstone activations all by itself. As an added bonus, you can play it after Grindstone, crack it to put Painter's Servant into the graveyard, and then weld him back in.
I don't have much time now, 'cause I'm going to prepare an exam, but it's a few days I've seen this topic with an eye of interest. Just a question/suggestion, before disappearing for a couple of days: would sen triplets not go in this build?
Coming off of a fast survival/welder, it's a good control element (slows down the opponent, removes his creatures with his own spells, etc.). If we manage to bring her out in the midgame, her chant effect usually means gg. She's maybe better than that singleton MotM (which, as a landstill player myself, I've never considered a good card to be played as 1-of, it locks if it comes down early, not when the game is already settled). As a 1-of, on the contrary, sen triplets absolutely locks the game, or forces the opponent to removal (1 less headed to painters/goyfs). Having her ability resolved in the upkeep, means chant-painter-grindstone-gg. Here mana cost is not maybe off color, she needs to pass from the grave (but so does other pieces of the deck...).
Loved the grim poppet thing, nice old-style tech, but -1/-1 counters are better than triskelion's damage (though triskelion can damage players).
I'd run a couple Witness. I like being able to generate better card quality through TfK, and Witness allows the deck to recur the engines (TfK and Survival), get back lost combo/lock pieces, or any creature since I don't see any Genesis in many lists.
I personally like Sharuum. Welding/Transmuting in Sharuum also provides some advantage on the board.
HPB_Eggo - Those LED "tricks" are kinda cool. I'm sure that other people can think up some neat tricks with it. I'm willing to test it out.
Here's the list I'm testing as of right now...
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga
3x Forest
3x Tree of Tales
2x Savannah
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Painter's Servant
4x Qasali Pridemage
3x Goblin Welder
2x Heap Doll
1x Squee
1x Anger
1x Genesis
1x Reaper King
1x Rofellos
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Survival of the Fittest
4x Grindstone
2x Enlightened Tutor
2x Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Pyroblast
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Pithing Needle
2x Heap Doll
1x Jaya Ballard
It seems to be performing fairly well. It is very good at playing without SoF or Painter/Grindstone, and SDT/Enlightened Tutor help immensely with the non-aggro plans. Qasali Pridemage is, as always, ridiculously good, as there are few decks where he doesn't solve at least one problem.
As for Sen Triplets, I could see where you could build a deck that would work around her, but I'm not sure this is it. Yes, it can be a good card. However, I don't like that it requires two colors that are not playable in the deck without Birds. Also, with Goblin Welder to recur lost combo pieces, I don't see counters as much of a problem for this deck, so the need to prevent said counters is not really there.
Random Editing...
I really, really didn't like the blue splash in the original build. Yes, it lets you play TfK. However, it doesn't really fix any problems with the deck, as we couldn't run enough blue for FoW, or even enough islands for Daze.Quote:
I'd run a couple Witness. I like being able to generate better card quality through TfK, and Witness allows the deck to recur the engines (TfK and Survival), get back lost combo/lock pieces, or any creature since I don't see any Genesis in many lists.
Eternal Witness is run in most Survival lists solely to grab in response to the destruction of Survival so you can bring it back. The way this deck is built, it is supposed to care less about sticking Survival, so running a card that essentially exists only to recur Survival is not really helpful(we can recur combo pieces with Welder and creatures with Genesis as needed).
LED is an amazing card with Painter/Grindstone and Goblin Welder; first turn of the first game you can also draw a FoW or something of the sort, as the assumption will be that you're playing ANT or Ichorid. The only real problem is what to cut.Quote:
HPB_Eggo - Those LED "tricks" are kinda cool. I'm sure that other people can think up some neat tricks with it. I'm willing to test it out.
HPB, I like your list
The only thing I don't like about it is the big tutor box that is usually redundant in most metagames (Countertop, Landstill, Zoo). Your list is probably tweaked to your metagame though. For e.g. I don't see the need of 4 Pridemage in the MD and 2 Heap doll in the main. Teeg is good, but as a one-off, you're basically saying that you have to resolve Survival to grab him. The matches where you need him is against ANT and Landstill, and waiting on Survival to grab Teeg on turn 3 is already GG against ANT. Against Landstill, you probably won't be able to resolve Survival easily against Snares and EE, not to mention Teeg gets pathed.
Trust me, Teeg is great, but in the MD slot he doesn't do much as a one-off. In the SB when you bring in your hate package, his inclusion becomes much stronger since your opponents have to deal with a ton of other hate.
I agree with HPB that the blue list is very suboptimal. I had some hopes in it so I brought it last week, but testing showed that TfK was a little too slow. TfK is more situated in a controllish shell. Many times I simply wished that I had ETutor to go off faster, captilizing on the fact that I had parts of an engine out and wanting to go off when my opponent hasn't been able to dig for an answer.
The situations boiled down to:
1) Grindstone in play: You want Painter so drawing or SotF Painter is the ideal play
2) Painter in play: You want Grindstone to win or SotF to grab Jaya/Reaper King
3) Survival in play: You want Welder engines or Painter/Jaya
4) Welder in play: You want fatties/engines in your yard.
TfK allowed me to draw/dig for 1), 2), 3) and gave a huge boost to 4).
In my testing, I'll explain why TfK wasn't good in practice.
Clearly simply digging 1), 2), 3) is not great, especially if you don't run brainstorm and other digging spells to maximize TfK. TfK really fuels 4), but situation 4) arises usually when I have SotF in play. I seldom play Welder without Anger in the yard since it's simply a suicide play and waste of a welder.
In light of these observations last week, I referred back to HPB's white version and weighed the benefits on 1)-4). White gives enlightened tutor, which:
1) You have Grindstone: you no longer need to draw Painter but simply tutor for it
2) You have Painter: You can tutor for either Grindstone or SotF to go off in either ways.
3) Survival in play: Now, you can grab either Welder or Painter engines since ETutor can tutor up Grindstone where in the TfK situation, you'd want to go off with Welder since you can't guarantee drawing into a Grindstone
4) Welder in play: This isn't great with ETutor, but there are cases where you can tutor out Painter/Grindstone with either Grindstone/Painter in the yard, or simply ETutor for Survival to go off.
As we can see, Etutor fulfilss 1)-4) much better than TfK. The remaining issue is the innate pros/cons of Etutor and TfK. The innate problem with ETutor is the card disadvantage which is relevant but since this deck is sort of combo, assembling and resolving the combo is more important hence justifying its inclusion. TfK's innate problem is that it's 3cc, which makes it hard to resolve against Daze/Thresh.dec. ETutor has the problem of dying to counterbalance but being less susceptible to Dazes.
However, I feel that the consistency and tutoring power of ETutor far outweighs its drawback as card disadvantage. The deck gets either engines out very fast and only etutor can help achiev the engine out by turn 3 whereas TfK might assemble the engine drawing on turns2/3 and not consistently piece the engine up since it doesnt tutor.
Regardless, the deck doesn't need any combos to go off. It still runs good cards: Goyfs, Pridemages are all solid cards on their own, and there are games where I win with SotF tutoring goyf beats instead of combo.
Transmuter, as expected, was USELESS and definitely win-more. The same thing goes with Sharuum and even more for Sen Triplets. Basically any welding target you get is coming from SotF and these targets should never be win-more since one needs to know that these targets, including SotF are the highest threat in the deck, hence they are VERY likely to be countered and removed. Sen Triplets is game-breaking ONLY if your opponent has no answer, and that's not good in a format with StP running around. Master Transmuter for this very reason was hardly used because 1 Titan in play should be gamebreaking and cycling Titans is a win-more strategy (only in specific situations is it actually not win-more and needed).
White therefore gives ETutor and Pridemages, and Canonist and Teeg in the SB, which are all not win-more cards. It's easy to include win-more cards in a deck that's fun and powerful. This deck is as powerful as it's fragile but in my opinion, it has a ton more resiliency than regular Survival Welder, because it has a second deadly engine, which has synergy with the Welder and Survival engine. Therefore going off in multiple directions and not being screwed when one engine is dead is the strength of this deck.
This is also one of the main reason why I intentionally excluded EWitness. Like Survival Bant, this deck can win without the aid of Survival. Unlike regular RGBSA and Welder Survival, Survival is the most critical piece to making those decks work, hence they need 3 Witness to actually ensure that they can continually put SotF out as a threat. Our deck doesn't need SotF to go broken. You can go off in the many directions as pointed above, which is why EWitness is a wasted slot since it's only main purpose is to return Survival or a Goyf (which IMO is too slow a play if you're in such a desperation to return a goyf to block an army of goblins).
I did my best to cut it down as much as possible. I cut Platinum Angel and Sundering Titan, and am on the verge of putting Genesis in the board. I sometimes miss Angel, but I hardly ever use Genesis and Titan is, at least in my experience, strictly worse than Reaper King in this deck.Quote:
The only thing I don't like about it is the big tutor box that is usually redundant in most metagames (Countertop, Landstill, Zoo).
I see a lot of Ichorid, so I need the Heap Dolls. The simultaneously eliminate Bridges and Dredgers/Ichorids, and basically win the match all by themselves. I would say run two main even if you don't have that problem, as it will randomly win some games and is, if nothing else, still a one-drop Scarecrow with which to activate Reaper King. The two in the board is probably overkill for most people.Quote:
Your list is probably tweaked to your metagame though. For e.g. I don't see the need of 4 Pridemage in the MD and 2 Heap doll in the main.
Pridemage is there as a 4-of because of Countertop and a somewhat consistent Affinity and Enchantress presence. I would generally say two is enough, especially when running Genesis.
I've been encountering quite a lot of that. I'm thinking he should switch places with Jaya and head out to the SB.Quote:
Teeg is good, but as a one-off, you're basically saying that you have to resolve Survival to grab him. The matches where you need him is against ANT and Landstill, and waiting on Survival to grab Teeg on turn 3 is already GG against ANT. Against Landstill, you probably won't be able to resolve Survival easily against Snares and EE, not to mention Teeg gets pathed.
So, currently, I'm thinking something along these lines...
Main: -1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Jaya Ballard
SB: +2 Teeg, -1 Jaya Ballard, -1 Pithing Needle
For more general metas, I would also do something along these lines in addition to that...
Main: -2 Qasali Pridemage, +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard: -2 Heap Doll, +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Ethersworn Canonist
Although I'm much less sure about the general meta testing than I am about my own. Could be there are better cards to put in those slots.
Our metas are a little different, but I think Heap Doll in the MD is a dead card outside of Dredge. Sure it stops loam, but they should have a cycler to save the LftL.
I would recommend (FOR A GENERAL META) to play 2 Heap Doll SB. Against Ichorid, you can remove bridges, take away an Ichorid and nuke a land/narco with Reaper King in play. Teeg should be in the SB. One can possibly play 2 Teeg, 3 Canonist in the SB or 3 Teeg, 2 Canonist and bring the Teegs against Enchantress/Landstill but I would just stick with 6 blasts for anything blue.
As far as I know, combo players are more annoyed by Canonist than Teeg. Teeg doesn't stop Mtutor into removal but neither does Canonist, but Canonist stops them from going off on that turn since they cannot play anything until they've bounced her, and tutoring for a bounce is 2 spells, which they can't pull it off without a ritual or 3 lands, so they need another turn. I'm not too worried about the Landstill matchup if you don't overextend into EE. Against anything non blue, just play your hand out fast and win, but against blue, you can slow-roll them and bait out counters/removal by playing servants/goyfs, and then resolve Survival or play a Welder with anger in the yard to win.
Platinum Angel to me is useless. The deck's bad matchups are combo and Angel does nothing against bounce and grips. Nullstone Gargoyle does something at least. Angel can possibly kill Dredge entirely but that's if she doesn't get Chained or chewed away by Ingot chewer and Chain of Vapor.
To be honest, I haven't used Jaya anytime yet so she maybe a wasted slow, but I've seen Imperial Painter win right off the back of Jaya burn. If you have 8 mana off Rofellos and Jaya, you can possibly just end the game right there with a huge burn.
I only run 2 Pridemage MD since my only feared artifacts/enchantments are Counterbalance and EE. Dreadnought is scary, but you'll board in Grips against them. HPB, I highly advice playing at least 3 Grips. You can't deal with Countertop without Grips even with Pridemages. You might have trouble resolving Pridemages, and Grips help against Stax and Dreadstill tremendously, and Pox's Crucible. The main reason I played blue was for Trygon and TfK (3cc out of Countertop's popular 1-2cc) but I'm willing to take a bite from Countertop with the Pridemages (2cc) and Enlightened Tutor (1cc) to be more explosive and consistent.
I've liked and disliked SDT. It helps find the combos and pieces, but since this white build already has a good chance on finding one of the 3 win-conditions, I think SDT can leave. SDT was only useful for me turns 1-2, and useful against Pox where I had to dig for lands, but other than that, when Survival is online, I never used SDT since I was busy tutoring and using mana on going broken with Survival. Without Survival, I can see the benefits of SDT. Chrome Mox is definitely a terrible topdeck, but not so much in this list with Welders. I'll test the 3SDT v.s. 3 Chrome Mox list again. My direction to Chrome Mox was the same direction as stompy/Imperial Painter philosophy: To be able to play out faster threats and postboard, Chrome Mox having extra mana for REB open is valuable against storm and control decks. Maybe instead of 3 SDT and 3 Chrome Mox, finding space for 4 REB is better. Since we have 3 ETutors, getting Painter is almost as easy as in Imperial Recruiter, although we don't have the luxury of moon slowing opponents down.
My SB currently is:
SB:
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 REB
2 Pyroblast
1 Heap Doll
1 Pridemage
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Krosan Grip
I'm not sure if Crypt > Heap Doll against Dredge. I'm leaning towards Heap Doll, but outside of Dredge, Crypt deals much better against LftL, although Heap Doll can do as well, if we had reaper king out. Crypt, however, is a less situational answer against Aggro Loam than Heap Doll, which requires us to resolve Reaper King. Again, I guess depending on the meta, I can drop Crypts for 3 Heap Dolls in a Dredge-no-loam meta, and play 1 Heap Doll, 2 Crypts in a loam-less-dredge meta.
I think Grip > Pridemage post SB against the decks you need them against. Aside from Stax, Grip is most relevant against countertop decks and dreadstill. Pridemage is highly unlikely to resolve unless you've baited around with Survival/Goyfs/Painters.
I'm taking this deck again this weekend with the new white list!
I just need 2 more BoP and 3 Heap Dolls rofl.