Reaching the Density - Milling Strategies

Mesmeric Orb certainly seems to warrant a spot in this deck. It's a repeatable form of milling that doesn't require mana to activate, meaning that it's value increases as the game continues. Mind Funeral also isn't "trash" in this sort of deck, because if you consider the fact that most decks run around a 20:40 spell to land ratio, it will on average mill about 12 cards when you cast it, or because it's more like 23/37, about 10-11, which is still around 4+ "damage".

Char may not cut it for burn, but in a deck that is likely struggling for playables, it doesn't seem that bad. Plus it has "win the game" on it when you are playing against Charbelcher decks :P

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

Merchant Scroll could also fit in - the problem is that on turn two on the draw if they know you're holding the Trap, they can probably afford not to crack another fetchland. You can also tutor up Glimpse in those situations though (plus last-resort-stuff like Submerge, which combines nicely with milling).

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You can't tutor up Glimpse, because Glimpse is a sorcery.

A quick search for Gaea's Blessing has revealed no hits in this thread...

Although you can Stifle it in a :u:-based Mill deck the opponent also has to counter only the Stifle (or gravehate) and not one milling spell.

A mill deck like this is too easy to hate. Maybe not on large events as an underdog but anywhere else. I constantly put 1 Blessing in my board in local tourneys because of a painter deck and it won several matches.

On a sidenote: Milling obviously makes Goyfs bigger which is a huge problem a deck like burn hasn't.

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

A quick search for Gaea's Blessing has revealed no hits in this thread...

Although you can Stifle it in a :u:-based Mill deck the opponent also has to counter only the Stifle (or gravehate) and not one milling spell.

A mill deck like this is too easy to hate. Maybe not on large events as an underdog but anywhere else. I constantly put 1 Blessing in my board in local tourneys because of a painter deck and it won several matches.

On a sidenote: Milling obviously makes Goyfs bigger which is a huge problem a deck like burn hasn't.

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Ichorid decks also get the benefit of slowly milling their decks...

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Originally Posted by Shugyosha

A quick search for Gaea's Blessing has revealed no hits in this thread...

Although you can Stifle it in a :u:-based Mill deck the opponent also has to counter only the Stifle (or gravehate) and not one milling spell.

A mill deck like this is too easy to hate. Maybe not on large events as an underdog but anywhere else. I constantly put 1 Blessing in my board in local tourneys because of a painter deck and it won several matches.

On a sidenote: Milling obviously makes Goyfs bigger which is a huge problem a deck like burn hasn't.

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I can also activate Crypt/Relic with the trigger on the stack. Or start the game with leyline.

I was just thinking, due to your signature, whether or not this new trap belongs in Solidarity. It certainly reduces the amount of cards needed for a lethal Brainfreeze, and it ups the storm count for free.

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Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow

I can also activate Crypt/Relic with the trigger on the stack. Or start the game with leyline.

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As I said, you only have to deal with Stifle/Gravehate instead of countering other stuff. Relic/Crypt/Leyline can all be neutered by Krosan Grip before it even matters.

Leyline has to be in your opening hand to be really effective while Blessing has to be in the library to be effective. But regardless of Leyline effectiveness, would you board it in or play it even main against every deck?

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Originally Posted by morgan_coke

Actually Taco, I'd say it's pretty close now.

Using your breakpoint of 8 cards, we'll combine Trap, Glimpse, and Brainfreeze (assume you cast in on their turn for 2, so we'll call it a six) and we have 12 spells with an average mill of 9.66 cards. You would need to resolve four-five of them to win on average. This is fewer than the number of spells burn has to resolve, but the CMC on the mill spells is also slightly higher.

I think the real question is does the bonus you get from being in blue offset the disadvantages you get from a slower clock and giving the opponent more graveyard resources to use before you kill them?

If Burn is an "all in aggro" approach to death by Sorcery and Instant, the Mill would be the "aggro-control" approach to that strategy.

The best solution might be something more similar to an FT shell, except with mill cards in place of the combo spells. Something like (and this is completely off the top of my head)

4x Glimpse the Unthinkable
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Brain Freeze
4x Tomb Scour

4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Spell Snare/Thoughtseize

4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Vision Skeins
2x Words of Wisdom

4x Polluted Delta
4x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
2x Unstable Geyser
2x Bloodstained Mire
1x Swamp
1x Mountain
3x Island

Sideboard
4x Pyroclasm
4x Submerge
4x Tormod's Crypt
3x Pyroblast

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This is worse than just including Helm + Brain Freeze or Painter+Grindstone in a Doomsday list or including Brain Freezes in a more Ad Nauseam-centric build. Both of these are worse than what Ux combo already has. Instead of trying to resolve 1-2 spells at a total cost of 4-6 mana you're trying to resolve 4-5 of these spells at a cost of 3-6 (not counting cantrips that might be necessary to make Brain Freeze useful). Your card quality engine is miles worse and you play worse protection.

I've been testing this:

4 Underground Sea
5 Island
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand

4 Vision Charm
4 Brain Freeze
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Mind Funeral
2 Memory Sluice
4 Tome Scour
4 Mesmeric Orb
4 Howling Mine
4 Sanity Grinding
4 Twincast
4 Archive Trap

I'm not sure about Sanity Grinding since it only hits eight cards on average for three mana. They could be Jace Beleren, or maybe Brainstorm, Ponder, Mystical Tutor, or Force of Will.

Also, Brain Freeze is nuts in here. If you can't get nine cards with it, you're not really trying.

The burn comparison is sort of misleading since there are far more hate cards in the meta for burn than for milling.

This deck wins on turn five on average in a goldfish bowl. Probably not fast enough yet.

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This is worse than just including Helm + Brain Freeze or Painter+Grindstone in a Doomsday list or including Brain Freezes in a more Ad Nauseam-centric build. Both of these are worse than what Ux combo already has. Instead of trying to resolve 1-2 spells at a total cost of 4-6 mana you're trying to resolve 4-5 of these spells at a cost of 3-6 (not counting cantrips that might be necessary to make Brain Freeze useful). Your card quality engine is miles worse and you play worse protection.

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I never said it was better.

In all probability, it's probably better to drop Painter/Grindstone to add a few more mill cards, but there's nothing else that stands out.

Regardless, I was just showing the route I'd go if playing this deck, which I wouldn't do in the first place.

@ Haunting Echoes

Burn wouldn't play a 5cc burn spell that did 20 damage. By the time burn has 5 mountains in play, the opponent is either dead, or within lethal range. If not, you should be scooping anyway. There is asbolutely no reason to run Haunting Echoes in a deck that wants to play a fundamental turn of 4.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I never said it was better.

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I was entirely referring to morgan_coke's post about trying this in an FT shell.

emidln,

a couple of points:
1) the protection doesn't need to be as good because a spell getting countered isn't the end of the world, you have more.
2) redundancy makes the selection engine less important, so it doesn't have to be as good
3) the "FT shell" started out as the thresh shell, except with a combo kill/protection package replacing the win conditions. It has evolved substantially since then, but when I said "FT shell" I was referring to the blue cantrip/counter base. I should have done a better job of explaining this in the original post.
4) As I stated in my post, that's a completely off the top of my head list. It's not meant to be ideal/fixed perfection. It's a brainstormed starting point.

Shugyosha,

yeah, blessing is incredible hate for mill decks. So is COP for red, and Crypt/Relic/Leyline for graveyard based decks. Or chalice/3sphere for thresh-style decks. Or CB/Top for combo. There's hate for everything. Especially creatures. Doesn't stop them from winning most games though.

Thanks Wizards. Archive Trap is exactly the card I was looking for. I just hope this doesn't become a money rare like Glimpse the Unthinkable.

Sadly, Sanity Grinding makes running Duskmantle impractical. You should still run Cephalid Coliseum, however.

I don't know, I think the idea has potential. It's worth testing. There's no reason why it can't work, there's just the math problem, same as burn. But the numbers are different.

I would run Leyline + Helm of Obedience in the sideboard. Leyline is your best answer to Gaea's Blessing that also happens to take out a lot of decks from Ichorid to Loam. And the Helm just provides additional sauce.

I would run at least Brainstorm. Normal burn doesn't pack draw spells. But then, they don't have access to Brainstorm, which is just, really. A silly card. Running Force or Daze, though, seems to be missing the strategy you're going for.

I hate to agree with Jack but he is spot on. There is no reason not to give this a shot, and I don't thing the idea is an unreasonable one. I even like that sb idea. I would also think that the Orb would be a sure inclusion in this deck, functioning as it's "Sulfuric Vortex." If the deck runs both top and CB it can also find its mill cards quite a bit faster by tapping lands each turn. Doing a "controlled mill" if you will

That Mesmeric Orb + SDT sounds quite good to me.

I always had big problems with Aggro when running Mill. They goldfish on turn 4 on average and that has always been too fast for me. I think we need more spells like Glimpse and Mind Funeral.
But yes, Twincast and Brain Freeze are awesome. And if you manage to survive some time, I would imagine you could have quite some fun with 2 SDT and Brain Freeze...

Not 100 percent confirmed, but if it's true...

Mill Crab U
Creature - Crab

Landfall - Mill for 3

0/2

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=185067

Dies to everything, but playing it on turn 2-3 and following up with a fetchland gives you 6 cards for U, which is at least better than Vision Charm.

It gives ur opp a target for their removal. i think its crap.

BUT

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7116/tgb66g8aqden.jpg

Add R Splash for this nice card will make ur spells go crazy.
Mesmeric Orb anyone?

I don't know if I'm going off topic, but i'm currently testing a milling deck inspired by archive trap. Though, from testing, archive trap revealed itslef not as good as at first I though it was. I the decided to squeeze in some comboes to give the deck more versatility and a little more consistence, though the result is not obvious perfetc:

Obiedience dreaded patinerstone 1.0

// Lands
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [B] Underground Sea
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
7 [UNH] Island
2 [R] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
3 [FD] Trinket Mage
2 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
1 [UL] Goblin Welder

// Spells
4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [TE] Grindstone
2 [AL] Helm of Obedience
3 [NE] Daze
3 [TE] Intuition
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [VI] Vision Charm

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [TE] Propaganda
SB: 4 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 3 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [R] Red Elemental Blast


The 3 main wincons are:
-painter grindstone combo;
-helm/obedience combo;
-beatdown plan.
The manabase is optimized to speed up a t1 painter, and minimizing the time required to pay and activate the verious combo. (life loss shouldn't be relevant a that point). On the other hand, chalice@1 is TOTALLY wrecking for the deck, it should have some EE or other to contrast. Leyline maindeck is positive vs any deck abusing gy, and comboes with obedience. I chose intuition as the best draw engine, fully abusing of the power of Academy ruins. Eventually, the singleton welder is used for tricks if all the other things fail. The sb has to be arranged, this is just a draft.

Still undecided if running 4 vision charm + welder instead of 4 stifle + trickbind/welder: far more good against storm combo, and having a stifle to stifle a fetch on t1 is always good to slow down opponent.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

It gives your opponent a target for their removal. I think it's crap.

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Combined with a fetchland it always mills 6 for :u: , even if your opponent has a Lightning Bolt in his hand, an untapped land and really wants to shoot your Crab. You won't need to pass priority after Crab resolves so you can drop the land and crack it before the opponent can do anything. And if he hasn't got the removal, you mill for 0-6 after every turn he fails to find removal.
Furthermore, it gives your opponent a much harder time to SB, becouse he can't just board out his creature removal without thinking.