This looks like a really interesting build - and I'm seriously considering giving it a whirl (just would need to pick up tundras and wayfarers mostly).
Is there a reason you aren't running meddling mage in here? It seems like it'd be an amazing fit.
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This looks like a really interesting build - and I'm seriously considering giving it a whirl (just would need to pick up tundras and wayfarers mostly).
Is there a reason you aren't running meddling mage in here? It seems like it'd be an amazing fit.
Wow, that’s pretty harsh, man. You guys have a thread for this already, with 4 pages of posts, I have no freaking clue why you need to have 2 threads for this deck, unless there’s some e-peen trying to grow.Quote:
Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
I’m all for defending myself, so let’s dance:
You guys thought Epochrasite was good. But let’s look at these suggestions in context:
You said:
To which I respondedQuote:
Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
Which apparently wasn’t a horrible suggestion, was it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
I suggested Stifle as both a way to further mana-screw, and not get blown-the-fuck-out by Deeds. The same argument applies to EE at 1 or 2. This is still a problem for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
Aven Mimeomancer I suggested to you in person, and I will stand behind that suggestion as long as you are running the most terrible 3-drop you can find: Court Hussar. You have 13 creatures with 1 power, and your only evasion is Mom. Jitte is the only card in the deck that makes any of your creatures do anywhere near enough damage to win before other deck’s strategies work. People who fetch for basics (like I’d argue most people do if they have any idea that there are wastelands coming their way, which all decks that run basic plains or Tundra do) are only slightly effected by your Wasteland “lock” that is more or less negated if you play first. But regardless of that, turning your 13 1/X’s into 3/1 fliers speeds your clock up enough to actually win before someone finds an answer. Or you could draw a card and have a body that blocks no creature in the format and lives, which is only good with a Jitte equipped. (Which arguably any non-0 power creature is).
Also,
I wonder what you mean by “best,” but ANT, Belcher, T.E.S., LED-Dredge, Non-LED Dredge, Cepahlid Breakfast, and Tempo Thresh/ Canadian Threshold would love to have a word with you. You only tested against each other, but if you test against someone who actually knows how to play any of these decks you will assuredly find different playtesting results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/285/dreadofnight.jpg
wouldnt dread of night just give you a mouthful of aids.
No one runs Dread of Night in this format. I would be seriously surprised if you could find a single decklist to link to that had it in it's 75.
Onto the actual deck. It seems interesting, but extremely reliant on Jitte and opponent's inability to correctly play around Wasteland and Daze.
Your only response to the 'goyf problem was:
I find that somewhat hard to believe. How does a combination of the format's most heavily played removal spell, paired with the format's ubiquitous counter-magic, plus 2 of a creature, and a slow piece of equipment (which, if it itself is destroyed or countered, grow opposing goyf's), make the biggest, most played creature 'laughable'?Quote:
Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
Btw, since when does Forge-Tender get acronym status? Is "Forge-Tender" really that difficult to type in a page long post?
no shit. but if someones going to tell me about an amazing pile of jank thats going to break the format. then Im going to mention a small piece of jank that gives said pile a mouthful of aids.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing4Five
He actually did explain this to me in terms of the weird creature spread after wayfarer/mom/seer. I agree with the logic for those because they all fall broadly under the category of "creatures that give CA, but would lose your opponent tempo if he wastes removal on them." It's simply a case of diminishing returns. But my problem with aether vial specifically is thus: having fewer copies of each creature gives you a better chance to draw a combination of two or more different ones (which is what you want), but overall the number of creatures that fit the above criteria is very high (everything but Avenger), so the point is you're going to draw one anyway, it just doesn't matter what it is. I really admire that aspect of design behind Nogoyf.Quote:
Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
But to me, aether vial is alone in that no other card fills its role and no card tutors for it (cantrips will find you something better, so I don't think they count), so you literally only have 2 copies. This means you'll rarely draw it in your opening 7 (when it's useful) and usually draw it later in the game (when it's not), it's not a sometimes-sometimes split. To include Matt's response as well, if this is a card that's useful specifically against aggro, wouldn't you always want to see it early?
Arguably the most important turns of the game are 1-4. There's no more dangerous time for you when they have a full grip and you've got nothing on the board. If you draw it early (or start with it), fine. But that will happen less than 1/4 of the time (23.33%). If you draw it too late, then you're already in control of the game and it becomes win-more (or not useful, like when you really want another CA-generating creature). I just am having difficulty grasping that a card that's only good against aggro (arguably the most common, granted) and only if you draw it soon really worth the two slots it's been given?
On the subject of crucible, I think the deck has more than enough ways to get both it and wasteland on the table- 4x waste and 4x stifle has worked pretty well for Tempo Thresh (maybe a bad example; I stopped testing this MU because it's a bye g1, but their game plan does revolve around having one or the other to disrupt mana bases) but generally speaking 8 copies of some effect is enough to see it at least once per game. If wayfarer sticks, you've got your waste. The deck also revolves around massive card advantage, so you're really bound to see something in a relevant time period. If you think not enough decks play nonbasics (I strongly disagree, but lets assume), then what about running it in the side to bring in with the tutors? I like the idea of card advantage, but card quality does occasionally become a major problem when jitte gets gripped (fairly often postboard I imagine, once your opponent recognizes how broken it is in NG). Is wastelock really such a terrible alternate win condition to "force your opponent to waste good cards removing bad ones" when that doesn't work?
I'll try a bunch of games with a sideboard as soon as I can get around to it (playtest group meets tomorrow), so maybe it'll make a difference in the way I perceive the matchups. I'm still massively against court hussar and aether vial, but we'll see what they bring to the table with a sideboard to help them.
I agree with not including Meddling Mage in the main. Mage basically sucks against everything except Combo and Ichorid / Dredge. It is just way too small to affect the board, it can't trade against any of Zoos or Threshold creatures and even in the Tribal matchup it will be hard to get anything out of it. So even if you get a spell they have, which is not certain (and Tempo Loss), you wont get CA because MM does not affect the board in a way this deck wants.
And the list plays already enough similar creatures which fulfill a useful and synergetic role in creating card advantage and stabilizing the board.
Meddling Mage on Engineered Explosives seems really important.
Meddling Mage is terrible, particularly against Zoo. That's why it got the axe after like six months of trying. Believe me, we tried to make it work.Quote:
Meddling Mage
It's only very good against Combo, and even then it's not game winning, because they can go off Ad Nauseum or Igg Loop and they have half a dozen removal spells. Yeah, it throws them a wrench, but it's not so great. It's about 2:1 status (and very good) if you can block your opponent's removal with it. Unfortunately, the most common removal spell is Swords to Plowshares, and naming Swords isn't generally a profitable play. Against UWxxx, Meddling Mage is just about a Grizzly Bear. Also, Mother of Runes fits the same role, she only costs 1, and she stops varied removal. Cutting her for Mage is a big mistake (it was a big improvement in the deck to add Mom).
But really, the fact that Mage is so horrible against Zoo really pushes it over. Against Zoo and Goblins, he's atrocious. Whatever you name, he's just a 1:1 that gives your opponent tempo if he's Zoo, and against Goblins you stop Ringleader, but only against non-Vial hands and they still have Gempalm and SGC for answers. Against those decks, I'd much rather have any 2/2 first striker (even without the land-fetching ability that we do have).
Also, a much-underestimated aspect is simply how often you go to a game one and have no idea what he's playing. Turn 1 Fetch Underground Sea for Ponder could be CB/Thresh or Black Storm. It's difficult to make it work as a turn 2 drop. And sometimes even game 2 or 3, you think he's playing The Rock with a red splash and it's actually Survival or Aggro Loam running more green. Legacy is too wide-open for Meddling Mage to be all that effective, especially on the early rounds of the Swiss.
Honestly, I think this is a pretty broad criticism, since so many decks run Goyf. He plays slightly differently in every matchup, but here's something that might help:Quote:
Tarmogoyf
We don't run ANY enchantments (no Standstill).
We only run 5 artifacts, and 3 of them don't come down until late, and 2 are only going to the yard off of a Force of Will.
We only run 2 sorceries and they end up in the yard turn 5 at the earliest (barring discard).
Our removal of choice is Swords to Plowshares, so more than you'd think my opponent won't have a creature in his yard.
If Goyf gets big, it's because the other guy filled the yard with random crap. Goyf is normally about 3/4, 4/5 at the most during the early game. We only put Instant Land into the yard by ourselves. If they want creatures or artifacts, they have to come up with the bolts or countermagic. I'd say on average against our deck, Goyf is -1/-1 over the non-Goyf field and -2/-2 under what you might be used to in a matchup where both players are running cards such as Rift Bolt and Chain Lightning partially for the purpose of enlarging Goyf.
As to answers during the game: Grunt is bigger (and chomps Goyf down). Any double block handles Goyf. Mother of Runes can block Goyf all day long. We also have Swords, and anything with a Jitte will walk over Goyf. We have so many different ways to handle it, and even if we can't it's just a 3/4 or 4/5. It's rarely the 6/7 monster that puts you on a two turn clock that it is in some matchups, like the Nassif Thresh mirror.
I mean, if you compare us to Merfolk, we're strictly better at handling Goyf. In fact, most of these criticisms just melt away when you compare to Merfolk.
Uh, I haven't looked at the data mine from Stephen's new article (it looks really cool, though), but the standard consensus was that Merfolk beats Ichorid.Quote:
Ichorid
Since you have obviously never seen our deck play a single game, I think that you should mentally compare us to Merfolk (just for the Ichorid matchup) before you accuse us of not playtesting the matchups. Against Ichorid, we have everything that Merfolk does, and far more. If you roll Merfolk consistently with Ichorid, then props to you. I'm pretty sure the consensus is still that Merfolk has a good Ichorid matchup, and it's not just Enchantress that keeps Ichorid down in the dumps. If you can't even beat Merfolk with Ichorid, then you can't beat us with Ichorid.Quote:
It is rather clear you haven't tested the matchup. As a sometime Ichorid player, Mother of Runes, Jitte, Grunt are all too slow in the maindeck. You can basically only ever get rid of Bridges by letting Grunt die, and you have no way to get rid of the Zombies after the Bridges go. And post-board, 3 ways to remove the graveyard and some "Worse than Heap Doll" bridge removers aren't scary. Technically you may be boarding in 8 cards, but they're not all that good in the matchup.
You don't think that Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, tutors for those cards, and BFT are good cards?
In the extensive testing that we've done, they have been very good. BFT prevents them from comboing for a while (they can still go beatdown, but it's extraordinarily difficult to combo out when you need two good bridge dredges). Mom essentially nullifies the beatdown plan and makes virtually all non-lethal swings unprofitable if we have multiple blockers. Grunt more often than burning Bridges puts cards like Cabal Therapy, Dread Return, and GGT under the deck. We don't care about them having a couple Zombie tokens, since all of our creatures (except Weathered Wayfarer... whatever) can eat Zombie tokens. If you just have a couple, attacking is not going to be profitable and we'll eventually get a Jitte out and win, so slow-rolling against our deck doesn't work as well as it might work against a combo deck. Recurring an Ichorid to generate a token a turn is not even close to enough to make us burn a Relic or Crypt.
I mean, in your analysis when you're talking about BFT, you speak as though Bridges don't matter. But then when you're talking about Grunt, the enemy is expected to have three Bridge from Belows and we're supposed to sac the Grunt!?
Yeah, we do scoop to recurring Engineered Explosives. What's your point?Quote:
Meddling Mage on Engineered Explosives seems really important.
If you've played the matchup, you'd understand how difficult it is to set up recurring EE against us. Even hands where we don't get Wayfarer (or you come up with Swords for it... if you don't, there's almost no way to win), you're still fighting a losing matchup.
It's also very difficult to draw all the elements required for recurring EE. Certainly not enough to run shit like Meddling Mage which is horrible in every matchup. And even if we had Meddling Mage, Landstill would just cast Firespout and we're out a card instead of up a card and you'd be talking about how Meddling Mage on Firespout is a critical play. Or Meddling Mage on WoG. Or Swords. Or Vedalken Shackles.
Landstill is not a problematic matchup at all. It's pretty close to a bye for some variants, so there's nothing we could really do to improve it (other variants are more competitive with us, but their strategy fundamentally doesn't work against Wayfarer, so we can always pick up the win from that).
Richard Feldman constantly beat Merfolk players at Chicago in spite of them having Relics maindeck.
And yes, it's incredibly obvious you haven't test the Ichorid matchup. Because you just say "We are better than Merfolk!" without referring to your own testing. Merfolk has a clock, you don't.
a) I would play Dredge vs stock lists of Merfolk for money until my opponent was broke.Quote:
Against Ichorid, we have everything that Merfolk does, and far more. If you roll Merfolk consistently with Ichorid, then props to you. I'm pretty sure the consensus is still that Merfolk has a good Ichorid matchup, and it's not just Enchantress that keeps Ichorid down in the dumps. If you can't even beat Merfolk with Ichorid, then you can't beat us with Ichorid.
You don't think that Relic of Progenitus, Tormod's Crypt, tutors for those cards, and BFT are good cards?
b) Beating one Relic/Crypt is easy, two is workable but rarely pretty, three is hard. Note also that if they are Grudging your yard hate, your Jitte plan is loose.
c) The card Darkblast would appear to destroy you.
It doesn't sound like you've tested much against a Dredge player who just grinds things out with an Ichorid or two, a Bridge or two, some random 1/1s, and some Therapies while always threatening to bury you in one big turn. It's certainly true that you can beat "flip my deck, make a Troll and some Zombies" with a Plow and a Forge-Tender...but the Dredge player can just draw four cards per turn while making a couple 1/1s, a 3/1 or two, and maybe some 2/2s for value and do that every turn while being capable of yarding their deck and killing you at any point.
Yeah if we find people who are better, our results will be worse. Duh. But people who are better aren't that common. We test so much (it's one of like 3 things I do when I'm not doing homework sets.) that we learn how to play the lists. It's not like your average Joe, is going to actually happen to be such a good pilot that he can nullify our results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
I'm going to turn your question around about mimeomancer. Why on earth would you run aven mimeomancer when for that same mana you can get court hussar? Heck, you can even get vendillion clique, which is much better, and sucks. I don't get why you hate on court hussar but not fathom seer. The two are not really that different.
Relative pros of hussar
vigilance
more affordable cost (1UW instead of 1UU) approximately speaking
burns ichorid's bridges (minor)
sees more cards
Gets around counterbalance
Relative pros of fathom seer
Generates more card advantage
Suprise (minor)
Combat trick (almost not relevant with M10 rules.)
Also, returning 2 islands is around slightly negative. Also, why do you make it sound like we're trying to race the other deck? We're obviously not, and it was stated in the OP. Other than like "I run 12 wraths, standstill, fact or fiction, academy ruins, crucible".dec, we've got inevitability on everything. I like winning, obviously, but it's not important to win early, which nullifies a significant part of your post.
We explained in a civilized manner to you why aven mimeomancer is a bad choice. It's not like "IMO aven mimeomancer is bad" or some silliness like that. Whether cards are good or bad can be reasoned out, and it's not some opinion. A lot of people are afraid of criticism and say "IMO" in front of everything, but we are simply asserting the facts. You're a math and physics major. You should be interested in facts.
I should also mention that our primary goal in posting this was not to seek suggestions, although if you have a well-tested/reasoned suggestion we would be more than happy to consider it. This is partially why we have a new thread, besides the fact that the old thread is... old and necroing threads is generally frowned upon. We posted this so that interested individuals, as there are already a few, could build our list. That way, the archetype can proliferate slightly, but moreover people could actually gain experience playing the deck at which point we'd be able to have more useful communication about what's good and what's not, allowing mutual benefit.
This is actually a great analysis of the result of running MM. That and it makes the choice of what to pitch for FOW very easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I'm not attending any tournaments while I'm at Caltech. The undergraduate program here is insane and I intend to prepare for graduate school and various math competitions. You're welcome to PM me/AIM me at pi4meterftw, and arrange to play with me online. I do take breaks from studying.
Sideboarding for dredge:
+2 Tutor
+2 relic
+1 tormod's
+1 grunt
+4 BFT
-2 ancestral
-4 wayfarer
-2 aether vial
-2 creatures depending on what we see g1 etc.
Sorry, bro, don't know who that is. Name seems vaguely familiar, was he the Ichorid player who made T8? Why are you bringing this up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
For testing results, are we expected to play against Pros? We're not pros ourselves! I'm like 1750 rated and he's like 1850 rated (although no rated games since like early High School and we're much better now). We've also played against other people from The Source and in San Diego where we've by and large won easily, especially against Ichorid.
Obviously if we're playing against players far more skilled than we are, we're going to lose more games. The matchup values that I reported are what the matchup is for two somewhat equally skilled players. I'm sure the best Ichorid player in the world would destroy this deck when piloted by me. I'm also sure any Ichorid players around my rating will get killed by this deck.
It seems like you're just trolling at this point. I can say with supreme confidence that regardless of player skill, this deck gives you more tools and better tools to beat Ichorid than any other deck other than a faster combo deck (which, if I'm hearing correctly from local Ichorid experts, Ichorid's matchup against TES isn't too bad anyway).
We've tested, like, a hundred games for Ichorid. I don't know what you want. I talked about generalities. I talked about a specific comparison since you obviously didn't play our deck. Do you just want proof that we've PLAYED the matchup? I don't know how to provide that other than this screenshot taken a month ago or so (I DIDN'T count it toward our Ichorid percentage, since it was a horrible version and horrible pilot, but that is, indeed, an Ichorid deck (playing Islands) and losing a game 2 to Ancestral Vision). He could have won this game, but he didn't dredge well. I had a Swords on top of my deck that he knew about from earlier, so naming White wasn't his mistake.
http://s190.photobucket.com/albums/z...nt=ILOLLED.jpg
I'm sorry I don't have screenshots of our dozens and dozens of other games that were played against more competitive versions. Beating Ichorid doesn't usually make me lol or post it on photobucket.
Are you going to the Knight Ware tournament?Quote:
Originally Posted by Forbiddian
I wish, but for a few problems. 1) I have exams. 2) My card collection is at home (with my parents) until TG. That's a long story. 3) Los Angeles is like 200 miles away from San Diego (they're not that close), and I don't have a car down here and the muni system sucks shit for public transportation here.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
Only like right around UCSD are the busses devoid of that hobo stench and overpriced bus fares (and there's no BART/Metro). If Public transportation were better, it would just ferry Mexican Marijuana up to LA and LA would be the drug capital of the western world.
Games versus MWS randoms don't count.
Nice troll. Why would we count games against randoms?Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
The argument over the Ichorid matchup is irrelevant. Ichorid does not usually take up a big percentage of a meta (playing it once in eight rounds seems average). Also, play skill for the Ichorid player is huge; if the player is terrible, then the matchup is a bye for most decks, but if the player is relatively skillful, then the Ichorid player is obviously going to be advantaged until significant sideboarding takes place. This has always been the reason why Ichorid rarely puts a dent into meta percentages: people are scared to play a deck that can be hated out by 4x Tormod's Crypt + 4x Relic of Progenitus (it seems Ravenous Trap might be better now, but I have not given it much thought).
What should be discussed is the Storm matchup, tribal matchups, Counterbalance matchup, and Zoo matchup. I would also suggest actually playing these guys (them with NoGoyf, you with whatever) because although this deck looks terrible, it generates a lot of card advantage very quickly. The deck is usually half-empty by turn 7-8 (fetches, Weathered Wayfarer, Ancestral Visions, Brainstorm, Fathom Seer, Knight of the White Orchid, etc.), so the person playing the deck can see a good percentage of the deck's cards. I do not see this deck winning a Grand Prix or some 300+-person tournament, but it definitely has game. I have not seen these guys dodge anyone; they offer a match, and no one seems to want to accept.
The <System> Player Lost in the screenshot is a good indication of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by pi4meterftw
Also, you were playing against a Brazilian with a poor version of the deck. So you shouldn't count it anyway.