Autoquote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastorofmuppets
Quote:
I don't know if the deck need Jitte, you can use the mana that cost Jitte + equip to recruit Mirror Entity and make all your dudes 4/4 or more, and you don't need to draw it.
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Autoquote:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastorofmuppets
Quote:
I don't know if the deck need Jitte, you can use the mana that cost Jitte + equip to recruit Mirror Entity and make all your dudes 4/4 or more, and you don't need to draw it.
Yeah but you can only do those kinda moves, if you have Training Grounds. If you don't have them, you need a shitload of mana to this move and you only play 19 lands. The point is. You can play critters with evasion. There are fyling rebels, as well as rebels with shadow and when you play Umezawa's Jitte, you got an additional removal, which makes all of your critters stronger. It also makes your deck less dependant on Training Grounds. And in the second game, your opponent knows, that Training Grounds is a kinda key card in your deck and will handle it as fast as possible and you probably don't have the counter to answer your opponents move. And enchantment hate is in every freakin sideboard out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocho
I'm kinda interested in the idea of this deck and will test a list soon. I don't know yet, if you have to play a softlock like Counterbalance or stuff like Standstill. I will test a list without both of em. Since you have the kombo kill, i feel like there aren't many cards out there apart from mass removal, which can really disrupt our gameplan.
Critters (17)
1 Children of Korlis
3 Defiant Falcon
2 Defiant Vanguard
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
1 Mirror Entity
4 Ramosian Sergeant
2 Whipcorder
1 Zealot Il-Vec
Utility (24)
1 Bound in Silence
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Spell Pierce
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Training Grounds
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Mana (19)
4 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Kor Haven
5 Plains
4 Tundra
3 Windswept Heath
The blue count for Force of Will is extremly low, but this UW Tempo stuff also has a low count. They draw more cards in the game though. Needs to be testet, but i don't see how i can include more cards, without weakening the game plan of filling the board with rebels. In the second game the opponent will for sure expect the combo kill, so Jitte seems like a decent second plan to win the game. Training Grounds will be handled in the second game. We also need to think of some sideboard cards. With Defiant Vanguard and Zealot Il-Vec we got two creatures, which can be fetched out to destroy opponent critters alongside the 3 Swords to Plowshares. Therefor i play Spell Pierce over Counterspell and other stuff, since you really don't wanna support UU.
I also really want to include Aven Riftwatcher in the deck, but i didn't find any place for it. You can't lower your blue count anymore. He really should be in the sideboard though, to fight aggro decks like Zoo.
I caught your arguments and I like them. All the techs that make the deck less dependent in TG, would be good.
Is obvious, but the deck have 2 big problems. Not finding TG at time and massive removal. You can face removal with counterspells, but vs fast decks you are going to die without TG.
Perhaps -3 Top + 3 Ponder would increase your Blue count to Fow, and make finding an early TG more easy. Top needs more mana but grants you a better late game.
I'ld go -1 Zealot +1 Aven Riftwatcher if you want to go for the evasive way + Jitte.
I want to try a soft-lock with multiples Children of Korlis maindeck. You can search for one every turn, and recycle into the deck with Lin Sivvi, even if the opponent plow she. This could give you some turns to grant a combo-kill or a Jitte.
I didn't have time for testing yet, but i really wanna try out that shadow guy, because he should be also good on his own, without wearing a Jitte. There's so much decks out there, who use utility creatures like Noble Hierarch or Dark Confidant and the shadow guy seems like a great guy to get rid of em. You don't need to counter Dark Confidant or use Swords to Plowshares to get rid of him. You simply attack.
I think Sensei's Divining Top is really great with that much shuffle effects. And another thing. Apart from Training Grounds and Umezawa's Jitte, you don't need to do anything in your own turn, if you have like 1 or 2 rebel recruiter guys out. You can do everything at the end of the opponents turn. That's what i like. But yeah we kinda need to get a high blue count, so removing Top für Ponder could be a viable option. Needs testing!
If we start to thinkg about sideboard i would give Big Game Hunter one slot, to have a tutorable removal against Reanimator strategies. Dunerider Outlaw seems decent against Bant decks and Canadian as a tutorable 1-off sideboard card. The trend lately shows, that people rather splash for red as mass removal, than playing stuff like the good old Wrath of God, so i probably would add Absolute Law to the sideboard. Should be also decent in the Zoo matchup, since most of their removal is red. Against aggro strategies Aven Riftwatcher should be included in the sideboard. Also a great guy to wear a Jitte for some rounds. And you also can get him back via the second ability of Lin Sivvi. Additional Children of Korlis and/or Ethersworn Canonist seem to be the best choice against storm. Ravenous Trap seems like the best graveyard hate to fight Dredge at the moment, so i would go for it. I feel like we can fight Reanimator strategies already quite good, with our tutorable removal main and Swords, Spell Pierce and Force of Will. So i probably would go for something like this:
Sideboard:
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Dunerider Outlaw
3 Aven Riftwatcher
3 Absolute Law
3 Children of Korlis
4 Ravenous Trap
Zealot has shadow. That's an even better evasion than flying. No one's playing shadow creatures these days. But it also can't block your opponents creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocho
After asking to our Lvl 1 Judge, you can attach Bound in Silence to guys with Shroud if you recruit it. So Bound is better option vs Reanimator than Big Game Hunter ;)
I like the Absolute Law idea. Would go 1 slot if finally play Enlightened Tutor.
Assuming you are using Brainstorm, Top, and Fetches, it is extremely unlikely that you will not find a Training Grounds by around turn 3. You have a 40+% chance of drawing it in your opening hand to begin with, and that chance gets rather high with all of the digging you can do. Indeed, given the deck's dependence on Grounds, it might be advisable to add in some Enlightened Tutors. It is on color, low in mana cost, and can tutor for a number of relevant pieces. Jitte, Top, Crypts/Relic, and Grounds. Adding even just 2 would greatly increase your chances of finding the much-needed Grounds.
-ktkenshinx-
Can you explain Bound in Silence with shroud please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gocho
Cool deck idea. I like Lin Sivvi, was a favorite back in the day.
The name's sorta Lawl'ish though... like you were just sorta tired and threw together the first thing you could think >.> "merfolk tempo dredge-still-ism" lol
Auras only target when they are cast.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
When you search for the aura with a rebel you decide on which creature the aura gets dropped. The spell doesnt get casted, and doesnt target anything. It just gets dropped onto that creature. That's why it works on shroud creatures, if searched by a rebel.Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Quote:
Auras only target when they are cast.
Right :)Quote:
Originally Posted by flrn
This was the original thread title months ago.Quote:
Cool deck idea. I like Lin Sivvi, was a favorite back in the day.
The name's sorta Lawl'ish though... like you were just sorta tired and threw together the first thing you could think >.> "merfolk tempo dredge-still-ism" lol
You can read that we call the deck Training Rebels, perhaps Trained Rebels or Veterans would like you more :)
Anyway, the deck is open to any idea, naming issues included. I don't copyright it :D
I played around with this deck and the possibilities training grounds offer and i can say that stoneforge mystic and azorius guildmage are both good cards in this deck. I play 1 jitte and 1 SoFaI and bringing SoFaI into play for 1 mana with TG + Mystic is super cool. Azorius Guildmage is sometimes nothing more then a pitch card for FoW but can lock down some decks completly with TG in play. I played some games against merfolk and he owns them. (stifles wasteland, aether vial, jitte equip and taps all beaters for one mana)
I am testing the deck against several archetypes and i have so far good results against merfolk, 50/50 against goblins and a bad matchup against zoo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcccp
Would you like to share your list?
The current list I have been testing off of MWS looks like this:
Its not optimal right now but so far, Its been working for me. Its a fun deck nonetheless. I actually want to put a combo finish to it, since the deck itself is a defensive deck.Quote:
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Windswept Heath
4 Ramosian Sergeant
2 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 Children of Korlis
1 Amrou Scout
1 Ramosian Lieutenant
1 Whipcorder
1 Defiant Vanguard
1 Mirror Entity
1 Shield Dancer
1 Shapesharer
1 Dunerider Outlaw
1 Big Game Hunter
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterbalance
4 Force of Will
4 Training Grounds
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Bound in Silence
This is the list i am testing now, but i will go -1 azorius, -1 knight of the holy n., +1 bound in silence, +1 shield dancer.
// Lands
4 [U] Tundra
5 [ZEN] Plains (3)
4 [ZEN] Island (3)
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
// Creatures
3 [DIS] Azorius Guildmage
4 [MM] Ramosian Sergeant
3 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
1 [TSP] Knight of the Holy Nimbus
2 [NE] Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 [TSP] Children of Korlis
1 [LRW] Mirror Entity
1 [NE] Defiant Falcon
1 [ON] Whipcorder
// Spells
1 [DS] Sword of Fire and Ice
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [ROE] Training Grounds
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NE] Daze
2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
4 [MM] Brainstorm
Hows Azorius Guildmage? Is she worth the slot? I would imagine under Training Grounds that she'd be the bane of Fetchlands.
I find that I didn't need Stephanie (Stoneforge Mystic) because the deck sifts itself pretty well with all the rebel-fetching. And late game, when you need it, Jitte will show up no problem.
Also, with my MWS testing, Daze somehow sets us back a landdrop, which is really important for this deck. I actually want to steal Quinn's Snowland Draw engine to ensure I get every landrop, but with the low land count, I think its not as effective.
Its a good thing that you're going to get rid of Knight of the Holy Nimbus as he gets shafted under an active Training Grounds.
Have you ever tried running a combo finish? I already found a great synergy with Lin Sivvi and Children of Korlis under an active Training Grounds. Given that your opponent can't go for lethal, you can preserve your life no problem.
Children of Korlis wasn´t that usefull so far. I think its a good card against Tendrils, so 1 in main should he ok. Often you cannot use her at all. You cannot chump with her AND use the abillity and when you are at 10 life and your opponent attacks for lethal children is just useless. Its helpful against an opponents Jitte (block and then sac).
Would Negate be better then spell pierce here? It seems like you are always going into the late game so i wonder if the draw back of pierce is a liability? Counterspell seems like a bit of a liability mana wise, and daze seems really counterproductive, and doesn't help at all in the mid game which is where you want to be.
I currently am not running any Daze, Spell Pierce and Counterspells. Although I havent really hit any snags just relying on Counterbalance and Force of Wills alone, I would imagine that the counterspell density is pretty low.
I am still contemplating on adding hard-counters on top of the mentioned two in the deck. After all, it is COUNTER-rebels. I am actually thinking of using 1 or 2 Remands as a late game counter, as well as a 4CC target for Counterbalance.
I also like the idea of Negate as it is 2CC. Before, my list was +3 Daze, -2 Jitte, - 1Shapesharer because the deck lack 2CC. I have since replaced it with the latter choices but if the deck ever needs more permission spells, Negate doesnt seem bad.
What do people think about Mulldrifter as a draw engine in here? (assuming that training ground works with it) Is that just too inconsistent/bad to matter?
I think on it, but doesn't work. TG only affects to Creatures, not creature Cards so it must be in the table.