[Premium Article] The New Legacy Banned List, and What it Means for You

Even so, Reanimator and ANT haven't been dominating the top tables of every tournament. The metagame adapted to fight back.

It was dumb having those 2 decks in the meta game. Hardly anyone could pilot them well but still they were really powerful. It was almost like giving a kid a grenade. Some kids knew how to use it. Some didn't. Either way, you had kids running around with grenades. Not happy. I much preferred the metagame where storm was a rare matchup. Very few people would play these decks and they would always be fun matches to watch. AdN was like turning storm on auto-pilot. You didn't have to do any work. All you had to do was basic fucking math and not kill yourself. Yet people did.. I'm SO happy Mystical Tutor is gone. My only regret is now I can't play casual Kobolds w/ Glimpse of Nature. :[

@Dalkon: Tendrils has been dominating the Netherlands for months, and to discount the results from the largest tournament of all time that saw a Mystical v. Mystical final due to a lack of sample size is more than a little disingenuous. Sure, a lot of Zoo decks made day two, where they got crushed by all of the people playing loam decks and combo decks after they started getting paired against Silvergill Adept.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vacrix

Even so, Reanimator and ANT haven't been dominating the top tables of every tournament. The metagame adapted to fight back.

It was dumb having those 2 decks in the meta game. Hardly anyone could pilot them well but still they were really powerful. It was almost like giving a kid a grenade. Some kids knew how to use it. Some didn't. Either way, you had kids running around with grenades. Not happy. I much preferred the metagame where storm was a rare matchup. Very few people would play these decks and they would always be fun matches to watch. AdN was like turning storm on auto-pilot. You didn't have to do any work. All you had to do was basic fucking math and not kill yourself. Yet people did.. I'm SO happy Mystical Tutor is gone. My only regret is now I can't play casual Kobolds w/ Glimpse of Nature. :[

---

The issue here is that we've now lost an important boogeyman for the format. Combo is essentially dead in that most people who could play it, won't, or won't play it well enough to stay out of the 0-X-drop bracket.

I mean, Storm was less of an issue than Reanimator. I realize that you, as a storm pilot, would be unhappy with incompetent combo players, but in most cases they were pretty innocuous in terms of the wider metagame - basically, the same as bad Dredge pilots. If you didn't know the matchup and didn't have the hate, they'd get you, but if you did then it wasn't an issue. Reanimator was a deck that people with half a brain and playtesting experience could destroy tournaments with, although that hasn't happened of late because many of the recent Reanimator pilots seem to have lacked one or the other property. Regardless, most of the hate people were packing was laughably ineffective. Karakas? Inkwell. Crypt, Relic, and Faerie Macabre? Needle and Show and Tell. Bounce? Counters already in the main, but Spell Pierce is a fine backup. I mean, the deck was this close to being completely idiot proof, which is kind of scary.

I don't appreciate the collateral damage done by the ban decision. If the DCI had wanted to stop Reanimator, they could have just admitted they fucked up and re-banned Entomb. Storm combo is more of an issue in Europe than America, so just looking at GP Madrid and assuming the worst is pretty loose. If they looked at the Top 8 results of all the SCG events this year, they would have seen that both Force of Will and Tarmogoyf showed up far more often than Mystical Tutor. Mystical also enabled a bunch of funky Tier II strategies like Nightmare's Mossnought-Emrakul deck. Why mess with all of that? Storm and Reanimator could be targeted with surgical precision by banning Ad Noz and Entomb, respectively (Menendian says as much in the article, for those of you who can't read it).

This just feels so...unnecessary. Like, yeah, all of the cool kids in Magic think Zoo is just a dumb little kid's deck and that all Legacy players suck and that if REAL Magic players played Legacy, it would be all storm decks, all the time, but the point is that the real metagame is reasonably healthy and diverse, with an aggro deck currently on a winning streak.

Whatever. What's done is done, and now that combo is gone I might even play Aggro Loam in Columbus (assuming I go).

Aggro Loam sounds like a solid choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hanni

Aggro Loam sounds like a solid choice.

---

Quick, thank him! He name-dropped you, too (and Bryant Cook).

EDIT: It's kind of a toss-up for me between Lands and Zoo. I think those two are the best decks in the format post-ban, although something like Counterbalance with Thopter Foundry would be more enjoyable for me to play. I just don't have the playtesting and support structure to learn the deck in time and don't want to spend the tournament getting raped by Zoo (since it will require me to severely budget my summer to get out there).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

I also think blue is effectively Tier II at this point. Zoo and Lands could already beat blue decks by either outmaneuvering them, or overpowering them. Those two decks just lost one of their worst matchups, so I'm not sure what's standing between them and running roughshod all over the blue players at Columbus. Like, a blue deck using counters is strategically inferior to a Zoo deck. If you're in a topdeck war and roughly even on the board, which of these "next three draws" is more likely to win the game: Nacatl-Bolt-Land, or Daze-Force-Land? Zoo is straight gas, and just plows over anyone who doesn't also draw straight gas.

---

QFT

Removing combo from the picture puts Lands and Zoo in a very good position. Given that Zoo was already definitely a DTB, how is this a good thing? A number of people have talked about the banning making the format more diverse, but I seriously think thats misguided. There are already many decks that supposedly have a horrible combo matchup and still seem to place well in tournaments.

Reanimator was a problem, but it became a problem when Entomb was unbanned, why they didn't admit their mistake reban it is beyond me. I think people total overestimate how easy it is to win with ANT. Even with a skilled pilot, hate cards have a massive impact on your ability to win. Far more so than they do against Dredge which can successfully play around hate in the hands of a skilled pilot. It's also funny that no one seems overly concerned about dedicated 4+ sideboard cards to beating dredge but it's unfair to have to include sideboard cards to beat ANT (admittedly anti-graveyard is useful in other matchups also).

In my opinion Legacy now feels much less like a much less Eternal format. Part of being an eternal format is allowing decks such as combo because you simply can't play them anywhere else. Combo decks are typically highly skill intensive and Eternal players tend to enjoy playing these types of decks. And why not when they aren't ruling the format? If we wanted to play Zoo we could have played it in Extended!

EDIT: I also feel that ANT to an extent held other 'Combo' type decks in check, Enchantress being a classic example. With ANT removed, I believe Enchantress will be a much more prominent deck and the good news? If you hate playing against ANT, you're going to hate playing against Enchantress too (It's called Solitaire for a reason)!

Quote:

---

Quick, thank him! He name-dropped you, too (and Bryant Cook).

---

I got name dropped? I don't have Premium so I can't read it... what did I get namedropped for? I haven't played in a real tournament in like 3 years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nizmox

QFT
EDIT: I also feel that ANT to an extent held other 'Combo' type decks in check, Enchantress being a classic example. With ANT removed, I believe Enchantress will be a much more prominent deck and the good news? If you hate playing against ANT, you're going to hate playing against Enchantress too (It's called Solitaire for a reason)!

---

Yes, if Wizards killed tier 1 combo decks because they think they are too non-interactive, then they are utterly stupid and have no clue that decks like Enchantress, Lands or Stax exist. On average, you will probably have something like 2 turns to interact with these decks before they reach their goal, which is to create a gamestate where the opponent can no longer interact. Non-interactive prison decks will be really scary now that combo, to some extent, is out of the picture. Owning powerful anti-creature cards like Moat and Tabernacle almost seems risky to me now that WotC has shown us that they couldn't care less if you have invested a lot of money in a deck that is no longer viable because of their bans. Is something keeping our dumb, overpowered type 2 creatures from constantly winning, and are we too lazy to print a solution? BANHAMMER

Quote:

---

Reanimator was a problem, but it became a problem when Entomb was unbanned, why they didn't admit their mistake reban it is beyond me.

---

Actually, if they were indeed out to tone down ANT and Reanimator, then banning Mystical was absolutely the right thing to do.

What Wizards has effectively said is NOT that combo has no place, but that combo should be tricky to play, and that the tradeoff for avoiding interaction with your opponent is increased interaction with your deck. Mystical Tutor made combo too easy to play.

They didn't ban Entomb because they think Entomb is a cool card that deserves to see play. They did not ban Ad Nauseam because they think Ad Nauseam is a cool card that deserves to see play. They did ban Mystical Tutor because it is a force multiplier that makes otherwise reasonable cards and strategies too powerful and consistent.

For the record, I own 4 Mystical Tutors and I don't think it needed to be banned. But if Wizards felt that combo was getting too consistent or easy to play then it was exactly the right card to ban, and I would much rather they ban Mystical Tutor than the actual combo cards.

-Silent Requiem

I own 6 or 7 mystical tutors but whatever about value. What about mid range rock decks since there is less combo to really worry about. Rock decks and Aggro Loam were awesome vs. just about everytyhing but combo.

The tinker decks from extended had Mystical Tutor in them. Tinker got banned.
The Hulk flash decks had mystical tutor in them. Flash got banned.
Reanimator had mystical tutor in it. Entomb... wait, wah?

It looks like they have banned the wrong card. Or maybe they have banned a piece of the skeleton of some kind of broken combo archtype. Probably both things are correct, and we will see new bannings soon.

Let's assume that combo(not belcher like decks which are too inconsistent) is slower than Zoo and Goblins so it will down in popularity(will have worst aggro MU but better blue decks MU cause of less hate) and will also have less merfolks in meta.And reanimator is slower and more inconsistent because the bullet creatures are no more fast enought to steal the game from merfolks , zoo and goblins.

Less merfolks but more Zoo and Goblins seems bad(but not so bad) for Blue aggro-control decks(which will pack more aggro hate and maybe some board sweppers).

Less combos means that Lands(who can deal with aggro) and has chances against blue aggro-control are better, also Enchantress is good for the same reason.

If you are looking for a deck which have a decent Zoo , Goblins MU , that can really battle against Lands(with sideboard help), and have Enchantress and Blue aggro-control favorable MUs then you should play BGW decks.

So my opinion is that Zoo , Lands and BGW are the best choices but you should be prepared for CounterTop decks(running Progenitus or Firespout),Merfolks(it is cheap so many people has no other choice),AggroLoam(it is a good choice) and some SnT Decks(DreamHalls , and Emrakul cheated in play).

Who is this Brian Guy?

Well, I like the bannings, might give Zoo a shot again (not an issue in America, but in Germany playing Zoo was a good way to get into Side Event Drafts rather quickly).

Reanimator was existent over here, but was busy playing in the lower brackets, it never really made a showing.

So powerlevel wise, the ban was not necessary, but I still like it. And just because Combo has been around for so long doesn't justify its existence.


On another note on the topic: Has anyone seen the interview in the last edition of The Magic Show. Towards the end AF said that they don't want Combo to be a pillar, more of a nice deck that needs a specific metagame to succeed. I'm not sure weather he was talking about Standart or Magic in general but it is still pretty interesting.

Good article. I am sad to see Mystical Tutor go especially since I have 4 Foil ones, but I think that less people playing ANT and Reanimator will be better overall.

I DID NOT appreciate the random Slide hate in the article. Slide had a good matchup vs. reanimator between mana denial, Crop Rotation, Extirpate, Swords, Consuming Vapors, and of course, Slide itself. ANT wasn't great, but between Chant, Canonist, Extirpate (it counters Mystical by forcing a shuffle) and Teeg, it was a long way from bad. Probably 45-55, which was a net bonus for Slide because ANT kept several bad matchups down. Bah, humbug.

The most annoying part of this decision is the huge number of people online who have now started playing blue/x.control.dec. Which isn't too tough to beat, but does take a long time to do so.

I understand how at first glance to a new player, or someone who might be familiar with the format but hasn't played it a lot, it seems like the broken/unfair decks are too good. But really, they're not. Because they're all so fragile, and in Legacy, there is SO much good hate for like, EVERYTHING. Also, because the card pool is so big, ALL the decks have access to good cards for their strategies, which means ALL the decks are good (or at least good-ish). This means that if you're playing something powerful but fragile and inconsistent, you can get destroyed by pretty much anything if it draws right. Thus, consistency is one of the single most important aspects of building a deck to survive tournaments, and not just to win a single game. Belcher is the best example of this. Huge power level. Huge speed. Huge explosiveness. Still loses to non-blue stuff (including itself) all the time.

As much as I like Slide, and as good as I am with the deck, I can admit that there are strategies and hate that can simply obliterate the deck. (Hint: it's not Leyline). It's the same with any deck, precisely because of the large format and card availability.

On a completely different note, the guys talking in the article about Legacy were extremely condescending towards the existent community. Also known as the dudes who pioneered the format and made it so there'd be something to talk about. There was also some real lack of format knowledge on display. EX: I am 95% certain Bant Survival is a real deck, and that you can indeed play Survival effectively in Legacy.

And finally, a car example to explain how consistency is both important, and underrated. Take a Maserati vs. a Camry. Now, the Maserati is faster, shinier, and better looking for picking up chicks. But it breaks down once a week and you have to remove the radiator to change the oil. The Camry isn't a flashy, but it always works, runs forever, and takes you wherever you want to go. And because the Camry is about 1/3 of the cost of the Maserati, you can own a much nicer house to go along with it. As well as wear nicer clothes, etc. This is largely similar to the relationship between a consistent deck, like Zoo and an elegant/complex deck, like ANT. Zoo has more flexibility in its tweaking and always works, ANT has severe constraints because of its all-in design, and sometimes it just breaks down for no reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by morgan_coke

I DID NOT appreciate the random Slide hate in the article. Slide had a good matchup vs. reanimator between mana denial, Crop Rotation, Extirpate, Swords, Consuming Vapors, and of course, Slide itself. ANT wasn't great, but between Chant, Canonist, Extirpate (it counters Mystical by forcing a shuffle) and Teeg, it was a long way from bad. Probably 45-55, which was a net bonus for Slide because ANT kept several bad matchups down. Bah, humbug.

---

Welcome to the "I'm the only person who plays this deck, thinks it's the best deck ever, and can't understand why there's no one else on my bandwagon yet" club.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by morgan_coke

The most annoying part of this decision is the huge number of people online who have now started playing blue/x.control.dec. Which isn't too tough to beat, but does take a long time to do so.

---

If you were playing Zoo, Lands, or Merfolk, these decks would be byes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by morgan_coke

On a completely different note, the guys talking in the article about Legacy were extremely condescending towards the existent community. Also known as the dudes who pioneered the format and made it so there'd be something to talk about. There was also some real lack of format knowledge on display. EX: I am 95% certain Bant Survival is a real deck, and that you can indeed play Survival effectively in Legacy.

---

Welcome to how the pros see Legacy. Did you read Pat Chapin's article today as well? He implies pretty heavily that Legacy players were too stupid to figure out how good Mystical Tutor decks were, which is something all the pros knew and just weren't telling the poor bemused Legacy kids. The fact that decks like Zoo performed well is less a sign that they're legit decks and more a sign that little kids play the format and aren't grown up enough yet to play Tendrils or Entomb.

I mean, almost all of the pros look down on non-pro players. It's just less on display in a format like Standard, where everyone basically copies what the pros do, or innovates by taking what the pros do as a starting point, or only goes to FNM and therefore doesn't matter.

@Hanni: he brought up points you made in the ban discussion thread. Also, he introduced you as a well-known European player - is that true?

I enjoyed playing against Reanimator and ANT.
They dominated Madrid? Well the format moves on ad finds answers! Just like what happened at Chicago: CounterTop dominated the field and answers were found.
Playing with or against zoo is really boring. It's really easy to play and I agree with Aggro_Zombies (With Zoo, it's just "RAWR BASH BURN RAWR," rinse and repeat until someone dies.)

Quote:

---

@Hanni: he brought up points you made in the ban discussion thread. Also, he introduced you as a well-known European player - is that true?

---

No, I'm American. I live in Ohio, about 2-3 hours from Columbus, actually.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vacrix

It was dumb having those 2 decks in the meta game. Hardly anyone could pilot them well but still they were really powerful.:[

---

ANT and Reanimator are very easy decks to pilot.

Legacy ANT is not even remotely as difficult to play as Vintage Storm Combo decks. And Reanimator is about as intuitive as you can possibly have a deck be. Both decks are fairly linear, and their play sequences can be easily learned and applied.

I don't get the hoopa over how 'difficult' these decks are. Counterbalance decks, like the one Nassif used to win GP Chicago, are much more difficult to pilot than either one of those decks.

Iggy Pop was alot harder than ANT.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

Oh scratch what I just said as I thought you were referencing that article he just posted (didn't even occur to me that you meant another article).

Yes, I think we all can agree that Madrid was dominated by decks that utilized Mystical Tutor in one fashion or another. However the problem with basing a decision on a single tournament is that that is I believe what is called a "biased sample" or something very similar. It is not a big enough pool of information in the grand scheme of things to make any judgment call about whether a card is over powered or whether a given strategy is dominating enough to warrant a banning. As such I think that things need to be evaluated from across several tournaments. That is where websites such as deck check come in really handy.

And as a note of interest, going by sheer numbers of decks present at Grand Prix Madrid there were combined only 175 Ad Nauseam Tendrils and Reanimator decks (don't know how many of said decks ran Mystical Tutor). On the other hand there was a deck present that had over 200 decks within its own archetype all on its own. That deck was Zoo, with 225 versions of the deck present. If you want to talk about dominating the field, I think Zoo qualifies. But I doubt that the DCI is going to ban anything in Zoo on the basis that it is an inherently more interactive deck than either Ad Nauseam Tendrils or Reanimator.

---

Wekl put.

And Zoo also had 3 players in the Top 8 of GP madrid, which some people are conveniently overlooking.