Saito busted! (GP: Florence) 11/27/2010

@ B.C.

I'm surprised to hear your view on this. I grew up playing golf, and if people want to cheat in that game, they can easily get away with it. There's a code of etiquette that you play by beyond the rules themselves, and all of it is held together by the players honoring the game. If someone wanted to switch a ball mid hole, there would be no way of catching them. That doesn't mean anybody would be tipping their hats to them if they managed to get away with it.

Not getting caught isn't the indicator if behavior is acceptable. Understanding the rules is sufficient. Stalling is unlikely to get called in most situations. That doesn't mean people should sleeze out wins because they can. If they care about what's good for the game, they'll play by the rules. If you're good enough that Magic is something you make money doing, you should behave in a way that grows the community and the game.

I'm all for abusing the heck out of any legal tactic. Once something is stated to be illegal in the rules, the trying to game it is unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by B.C.

I certainly don't condone Saito's tactics... I'm glad WotC made this ruling, and I hope it improves the game.

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I know I said some stuff in the middle there, and some other stuff before. However, I don't like his play style, and I don't think it's ok, and I'm glad he got busted.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

I don't think his award ceremony will be too akward after all. He didn't get suspended, did he?

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Suspensions are what happens after DQs. Each month, a panel evaluates all of the DQs that happened in the previous month (from the PT down to the smallest store events) and issues suspensions based on the particulars of the case. Being caught Stalling by a high-level judge guarantees a suspension, likely a significant one.

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Originally Posted by B.C.

I certainly don't condone Saito's tactics, but up to this point they had gone unpunished, at least not with anything this severe. If his "cheating" wasn't being punished, what reason would he have had to stop? In any case, I'm glad WotC made this ruling, and I hope it improves the game.

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They went unpunished only because he wasn't caught red-handed enough. Stalling - what Saito was DQed for and has allegedly been engaging in for awhile - is and has always been defined as Cheating in the Infraction Guide, no gray area about it.

I played against him at numerous GP's and he never stalled against me, but I heard it he intentionally stalled from so many people that there was probably some truth to that rumor. I don't pay alot of attention to mtg gossip anymore, but when you come upon a 'saito stalls' thread in 3 diff forums it's hard to ignore.

I guess there was truth to the accusations after all.

I hope he learns from it and changes his play, much like O Ruel did after he got caught. I also played against Olivier prior to his suspension, and that's a player who I actually felt was dirty after playing him. The point is pros who keep repeating offenses eventually get busted because players talk, judges pay attention, and at some point you get busted trying to pull another fast one after enough people catch you.

Maybe he'll just quietly go away or his finishes will markedtly drop off like Mori post-suspension, but I doubt it. He's far too good a player. This is assuming he's even suspended.

Based on the way people are talking it's apparently inevitable, but I'm really curious to see what this does to his HOF entry. I'm of the stance that suspended players don't deserve HOF entry, but definitely in the minority on that one. I agree with an earlier poster that should he get suspended and still inducted, an apology at the induction ceremony would probably be the best course of action for him.

Anyway he's in for some rough times ahead no matter what happens. My guess is he's going to lose alot of money from being suspended, and he really only brought it on himself. Here's hoping he changes his views on how to play the game.

- Dave

To be eligible for induction into the Hall of Fame, a player must:

Have made their debut on the Pro Tour at least ten years before the induction year
Have at least 100 lifetime Pro Tour Points
Not currently be suspended from playing Magic by the DCI (Previous suspension does not disqualify a player from entering the Hall of Fame.)


From the Wikipedia Magic: the Gathering Hall of Fame entry. Bold is mine.

There is an opinion held by a lot of second-rate players (note that when I say second-rate, I don't mean bad, I mean not-quite-pro-level. Most of them are certainly better at the game than I) that any sort of out-of-game gaming is acceptable so long as you do not incur the wrath of the judges. This is somewhat understandable, as there are similar games (such as poker) where a certain amount of deception and mind gaming is not just accepted but encouraged. However, I would wager that most players would liken Magic more to chess than poker. While I doubt that whatever international governing body regulates high level chess tournaments has a rule against say, rapidly clicking captured pieces together in an effort to ruin the concentration of one's opponent during their turn, this kind of action would be unthinkable. You don't hear about chess grandmasters "pushing gray areas" in an effort to gain any advantage that they can. And this is why I see things like this and shake my head. If you're idolizing unsportsmanlike conduct as "playing the game to its fullest", then perhaps you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

I'm glad to see some action was taken. Ironic that he would be DQ'ed just two weeks after this article on CFB.

When I watched him at GP I had a weird feeling during his early Day 2 match (the infamous Landstill matchup where the blog surfaced about him stalling) when he had to read Jace about ten times over the waning minutes of the match. My teammate would tell me later that the guy wrote an article about how Jace would change the face of control after Worldwake was released. Figure that one out :tongue:

My take on the issue.

I just re-read the statement on the coverage blog and noticed the last part makes no sense.

Nick [the Head Judge] continued with advice for players wanting to avoid falling foul of this rule themselves:
“Players should be able to play at a reasonable pace throughout a round. Judges recognize that a player’s speed of play can change during a game – Magic is a complicated game and produces difficult situations for players – but it’s important that players are still able to play at a speed that allows games to be completed. It’s a valid play skill to be able to make difficult decisions quickly.”

I don't know if it was the HJs fault or the coverage guy's fault for not understanding, but the above describes Slow Play (not playing fast enough), which is obviously not Cheating. Stalling is intentionally playing slowly in attempt to take advantage of the clock. Huge difference between the two, and it's unfortunate the coverage description screwed it up.

This comes as no surprise. This issue has been on the forefront for a while now. Magic, as a game, puts judges in an unfortunate position where they must decide if a player is stalling, or having the need for more time to think. Magic rewards victories to players that are needing to drag out a game in certain situations. This could quite easily be solved with the addition of a clock. Like so many other games, Magic should include a clock. There is no reason why a player with quick reactions and fast play speed should be pidgin holed into letting their opponent take up 40 of the minutes in a round, only to loose by not finishing a winning position in game two.

I really hope that the DCI comes to a similar position. Saito cheated, but I have no doubt that many others do as well. There is a fine, almost imaginary line between thinking and stalling. It is not easy to tell what is happening without being in a players head.

Just my 2c

Chess clocks wouldn't work. They would cost too much for tournament organizers, among other problems.

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Originally Posted by Shawn

Chess clocks wouldn't work. They would cost too much for tournament organizers, among other problems.

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I don't believe that I said who would pay for the clocks. It is funny that you assume it would be the organizers. For what it is worth, there could be a grace period where clocks would be optional, perhaps a year. Then all high level events would use them. It would do a lot to add credibility to our game. As a bonus, there would be no silly 5 turn rule, or highest life total rule. It seems ridiculous to decide matches in this manner when so much is at stake. Another added bonus is that you could eliminate draws completely if you wanted. The final rounds of a tourney would be much more exiting if people wouldn't just draw in to top 8.

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Originally Posted by cdr

This comes as no surprise. This issue has been on the forefront for a while now. Magic, as a game, puts judges in an unfortunate position where they must decide if a player is stalling, or having the need for more time to think. Magic rewards victories to players that are needing to drag out a game in certain situations. This could quite easily be solved with the addition of a clock. Like so many other games, Magic should include a clock. There is no reason why a player with quick reactions and fast play speed should be pidgin holed into letting their opponent take up 40 of the minutes in a round, only to loose by not finishing a winning position in game two.

I really hope that the DCI comes to a similar position. Saito cheated, but I have no doubt that many others do as well. There is a fine, almost imaginary line between thinking and stalling. It is not easy to tell what is happening without being in a players head.

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If you are that concerned about integrity, just have the players play via computer. Having players operate chess clocks has always seemed like a silly suggestion to me, because of the differences in the games.

This is not a chess clock thread. If you want to discuss clocks, go make (yet another) clock thread.

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Originally Posted by ramanujan

This comes as no surprise. This issue has been on the forefront for a while now. Magic, as a game, puts judges in an unfortunate position where they must decide if a player is stalling, or having the need for more time to think. Magic rewards victories to players that are needing to drag out a game in certain situations.

I really hope that the DCI comes to a similar position. Saito cheated, but I have no doubt that many others do as well. There is a fine, almost imaginary line between thinking and stalling. It is not easy to tell what is happening without being in a players head.

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There is no "fine, almost imaginary line" - you don't understand what Stalling is if you think there is. Stalling is deliberately taking extra time to run down the round clock, and as such can absolutely be caught. Whether it's actions clearly taken to eat up time - like repeatedly reading cards, checking graveyards, hand size, etc - or a glance at the clock followed by a sudden change in pace of play, there are plenty of tells. I don't think a cheater exists that's so smooth at cheating that he won't eventually be caught, especially at the GP or PT level where there's plenty of experienced judges.

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Originally Posted by Shawn

Chess clocks wouldn't work. They would cost too much for tournament organizers, among other problems.

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Have you looked up how much chess clocks cost versus the average tournament-quality Magic deck? It's honestly negligible.

MTGS post with a translation of Saito's blog post in his own defense: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showp...5&postcount=44

It is... plausible, but I can't say that I am inclined to believe him.

Has anything been heard from his opponent? Saito's post seems to suggest that the judges were watching the match of their own initiative, and so his opponent might be able to describe the events from a relatively neutral POV.

I haven't seen this particular match, but I've seen numerous of Saito's matches, and I can assure you, at alot of these matches he was stalling. It doesn't matter how you twist or turn it, the guy was cheating for most of his magic carreer and now he's finally caught for it. At least, that's the way I see it.

ChannelFireball droped him


edit: already linked in the other thread, sorry

One can always hope Oli is next.
Watching him play at PT hawai was more disturbing than hopping over the homeless people on my way to buy some beer.

Anytime money is involved, there are people willing to try it. I really wish they would just go with some sort of non-monetary reward for these. It's not worth dealing with the spikes willing to go further than what's needed to win.