[Deck] The Rock

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

With your list Martijn, I think you should either choose whether you want to go for more control or more aggro/midrange. Usually, running more Deed/Elspeth means running a more control build, and changing the creature base slightly, but this isn't necessary. You could leave it as is and play 0 Mox Diamond and turn those Wastelands into Duals, for the sake of mana stability in a slower build.

Extirpate in the main is definitely a great card, so you may want to leave it in if your metagame is infested with Vangevine. Otherwise, just put 4 in the board. I'd also say cut 1 Deed, and now you're at 61, which is totally fine for Rock.

If you didn't want to do that, I'd say cut 1 Hymn, 1 Pulse, 1 Deed.

-Matt

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Thank you for the input Matt. But at the moment there aren't much Vengivine decks around in my current metagame, so I'll remove the extirpates from the mainboard and put 4 in the side. I like playing with Mox Diamond, just because of the speed and it makes KotR stronger aswell. But with the Moxes staying in, I think cutting a Deed wouldn't be too bad since they can screw you over aswell.

So at the moment I cut 2 Extirpate and 1 Deed, which makes 61 cards.


4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Pernicious Deed
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Sensei's Diving Top

3 Mox Diamond

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Maze of Ith

What utility lands, besides bog, do you guys prefer?

Volrath's Stronghold
Maze of Ith
Horizon Canopy
Karakas
Other?

Have they hurt you against land disruption(waste, port, stifle) by being nonbasics that aren't fetches/scrub/bayous or not being basic lands more than the extra utility is worth?


Also, with a traditional Nelson build, how are the UG Venge, WG Goyf/kotr/mother survival, BGw Ooze, and Goblins matchups?

I've tested them with my builds (packing a bit more grave-hate, different boards) and they've been at least even. I haven't played Brad Nelson's list exactly, so I'm not 100% sure. It should be *decent* to say the least.

The utility lands don't hurt me as much as you'd think, due to the fact you're usually running 20 lands + 2/3 utility. Most of the time, I don't open with them, so it isn't a big deal. When you do, they're just as useful (since most still produce mana on their first turning, not counting Maze/Bog).

Have the small toolbox is nice because it can really help you out, and each have their own advantages. I've actually discussed them in the primer, so I'm not going to repeat it, just point you to the primer :cool:

For favourites, in mid range builds, Karakas is probably the best because it pulls you out of the absolute worst situation (Iona/Emrakul being in play). I'd say Bog is second favourite due to the surprise graveyard removal against opposing KotR's and Dredge/Vengevine.

I'd say in the right build, Volrath's Stronghold is the strongest as long as it doesn't die. it allows for some many shenanigans it's not even funny. You can literally run your opponent out of threats with it, but it's very slow.

Maze is incredible with Dueling Grounds, and on it's own. Stopping a creature with evasion that you can't block can be great, as can untapping a single threat you have onboard to block. It's like having vigilance!

Regards,

-Matt

@ Jeff K.

I fiddled with your list and got this. I used to play something very similar about 2 years ago, and it was fun as hell :D

3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Marsh Flats

3 Eternal Witness
3 Tombstalker
3 Sakura Tribe Elder/Birds
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Lord of Extinction (I hear it's good with Deed online :P)

3 Top
4 Swords
2 Path
3 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn
3 Arena
3 Deed

Basically, survive until you hit 3 mana :P

sorry for the double post, could've sworn there was a person who posted after me. Sorry again!

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZeinVoncy

@dzra
Would you consider dropping some card to add another Elspeth? Been considering her for a bit, she seems good. How has she been working out w/ you? Does she last long enough for her ultimate or does she give you killing factor?

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I've really liked Elspeth. I've never used her ultimate (mostly because she ends the game so quickly). It takes quite a bit of effort on their part to kill her since she can pump out tokens nonstop. She plays very well with Pernicious Deed also. Usually I'll play very aggressively with her and use her to fly over their board for a really fast clock. I'm almost never sad to see her so I've given some thought to adding a second, but the main reason I haven't so far is consistency.

1) I really don't want to see her until turn 3+.

2) She's legendary and since we can't Brainstorm her away it'd be major facepalm to draw 2.

3) I don't really want to drop any of my 4-ofs.

Long story short, I rarely if ever SB her out and I love the card to death, but I feel like playing more than 1 has the potential to clog us up too much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jeff Kruchkow

// Lands
2 [UG] Swamp
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
1 [5E] Forest (2)
1 [US] Plains (3)
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [B] Savannah
2 [B] Scrubland
4 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FUT] Tombstalker

// Spells
4 [U] Sinkhole
4 [AP] Vindicate
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AT] Hymn to Tourach
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 [PT] Virtue's Ruin

A build I tool around with when I get bored. Very LD dedicated which is why I play Witness to recur Sinkhole and such. Plays like a slower Deadguy Ale but with the bonus of having a super solid late game thanks to Witness and Deed. I should probably fit a Loam in the MB though. That or another Stronghold since the card is straight bonkers.

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This is like Eva Green w/ splash white for StP and Vendicate?

@ Dzra

Awesome, I can see what you mean by having more then 1 is not required, I might have to fit room into my build, maybe drop an Angel for one. My Desolation Angel usually ends games b/c she's flying and most opponents cannot handle it. I'll have to consider what to drop if I were to put one in.

@ sdematt

The only way I see Lord of Extinction being a good card is either: A) Post Pernicious Deed activation for 4 and less, or B) In a Stoneforge Mystic build where the Equipment gives him the bonus's to make it hard to deal with. Otherwise he's just an oversized creature for 5cc that does not protect himself.

That's EXACTLY why I'm using him:smile:

He's a giant oaf that does nothing, except get big. This may seem terrible, and yes, early on, it's so bad. But, the only thing that removes it that's relevant is Swords. But, I hear gaining 30 life is pretty good. You can even Swords him yourself to get into the end game :P

Honestly, he's there for the very late game after multiple Deeds. He's basically there as a "If you strike me down, I'll be come more powerful than you could possibly imagine" coupled with an "Answer me now or die, but again, answering leads to me still beating you." Plus, you get to play LoE in Legacy. I'm pretty sure that's worth it right there :tongue:

-Matt

Hey sdematt, what version of Rock do you play? I do not remember seeing your list posted anywheres, at least an up to date one.

Has anyone tried out Desolation Angel in a mid-range/control setup? I'm loving it, but would love to hear what other people think after trying it.

Two rogue cards I've been using to solid success.

1. Darkblast. One copy. Kills Lackey, Noble Hierarch and other green 1-drop acceleration guys, Confidant, Mother of Runes, Cursecatcher, Silvergill Adept, Steppe Lynx, Memnite, Goblin Welder, and half the other random 1/1's the format coughs up on a regular basis. It also breaks the stalemate of Tarmogoyf on Tarmogoyf action, can be used to pump Knight of the Reliquary, and is an absolute godsend if you've got a Top out and your top three cards are utter garbage.

2. Tomb of Urami. I'll probably cut this eventually, but it's so incredibly sexy with Knight of the Reliquary. A 5/5 Knight can EOT fetch tomb, and if you've got the mana to activate it, suddenly they're looking at a swing of 14, 15+. Or if you need the flying and to leave the Knight as a ground control guy, you can take things a little slower. Fetch up the Tomb, then at your leisure you can activate Knight and then activate Tomb in response, leaving you still with one land.

For the record, my list looks like this:

4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Tomb of Urami
4 Wasteland
3 Mox Diamond

3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Darkblast
1 Diabolic Edict

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

1. Darkblast. One copy. Kills Lackey, Noble Hierarch and other green 1-drop acceleration guys, Confidant, Mother of Runes, Cursecatcher, Silvergill Adept, Steppe Lynx, Memnite, Goblin Welder, and half the other random 1/1's the format coughs up on a regular basis. It also breaks the stalemate of Tarmogoyf on Tarmogoyf action, can be used to pump Knight of the Reliquary, and is an absolute godsend if you've got a Top out and your top three cards are utter garbage.

2. Tomb of Urami. I'll probably cut this eventually, but it's so incredibly sexy with Knight of the Reliquary. A 5/5 Knight can EOT fetch tomb, and if you've got the mana to activate it, suddenly they're looking at a swing of 14, 15+. Or if you need the flying and to leave the Knight as a ground control guy, you can take things a little slower. Fetch up the Tomb, then at your leisure you can activate Knight and then activate Tomb in response, leaving you still with one land.

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Darkblast is a card to think about, but if it's not used T1-T3, I'd consider it dead card in the long run. T1-T3 is generally used to establish hand/land control for us.

You use Tomb of Urami as I use Desolation Angel, isn't it fun to blow up lands after KotR is in play? :D

I'll be updating the Primer with lists tonight (hopefully). My list(s) look like this:

Doran Rock (I posted it earlier in this thread)

Rock:

4 Bayou
3 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1/2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
1/0 Karakas

3 Noble Hierarch/Mox Diamond (I'm leaning towards Noble)
1 Eternal Witness
4 Tarmogoyf
4 KotR
4 Dark Confidant

4 Vindicate
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords
2 Path
4 Hymn
4 Thoughtseize
3 Top
1 Deed

Board:
1 Deed
3 Dueling Grounds
4 Extirpate
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Duress


Plays very much like Brad Nelson's list, except I have a small amount of recursion, less discard, but more "firepower" (6 Swords, 5 Vindicates). It plays very nicely; It's very similar to Brad Nelson's list, except you find yourself a Swords a little more often, and Deed a little less. I could cut Deed altogether, but it's too good :P

-Matt

Hello guys, good job working with the new thread (big thanks Matt!) I haven't played the rock before but I'm thinking of having a go at it. What tempts me about The Rock is its versatility and the variety of different lists and I reckon its very rewarding having a stable list and then tune it to your own preference and meta. What I'm trying to say is that The Rock seems to be very fun to construct as a deck and play at the same time.

Also, playing controll without blue seems like a really fun concept which leads me to my question: what do the most successful controll-rock list look like?

Additionally, my local meta is very crowded with different kind of fast-aggro decks such as goblin, zoo, 'folk, some vengevine and standard controll lists such as countertop/jacestill. How would a more controllish The Rock-list perform in such a meta? I know aggro-rock is probably a more solid choice here but those lists (dark horizions for instance) just look a lot less exciting than its controll counterpart

Rock is, by it's design, very weak against fast aggro. This is because you're generally losing tempo against a deck like Zoo with every play, and the cards you have that are designed to generate CA (Wasteland, Deed/EE, Hymn, Confidant) can largely be ignored by these fast decks. They're difficult to mana screw because of their incredibly low curve, they play their hands out quickly, so the discard is often dead, they can easily remove Confidant and Deed/EE are generally going to be a tempo loss (but still your best bet) because you're invariably spending 4-6 mana to use them and they've likely spent less on what you're killing.

You could build a BGW deck that has enough cheap removal (Swords/Path/whatever) to give you a reasonable matchup against fast aggro, but when you're packing 8 MD Plow effects, you're going to draw dead against Landstill a LOT. A resolved Counterbalance wrecks your day. CotV 1. Etc.

To me, it sounds like what you want is something like TES or Reanimator. Or possibly Dragon Stompy, if you're talking shorter tournies (it will crap out on you over 5+ rounds).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I've really liked Elspeth. I've never used her ultimate (mostly because she ends the game so quickly). It takes quite a bit of effort on their part to kill her since she can pump out tokens nonstop. She plays very well with Pernicious Deed also. Usually I'll play very aggressively with her and use her to fly over their board for a really fast clock. I'm almost never sad to see her so I've given some thought to adding a second, but the main reason I haven't so far is consistency.

1) I really don't want to see her until turn 3+.

2) She's legendary and since we can't Brainstorm her away it'd be major facepalm to draw 2.

3) I don't really want to drop any of my 4-ofs.

Long story short, I rarely if ever SB her out and I love the card to death, but I feel like playing more than 1 has the potential to clog us up too much.

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I run her too, and it's basically the same thing. I don't want her in my opening hand. I want gas in my opening hand, and she's not it. God knows I run enough things already that I never want to actually draw early (Bojuka Bog, Maze of Ith, Volrath's Stronghold, multiple Vindicates or Deeds). My gas to slow control ratio is higher than most people's though. It's not that I'd mind drawing a second one late game, she's got a giant bullseye on her head and she's not making it to ultimate range whether you win right then and there or not. Once she hits the board, your opponent is going to do everything they can to get rid of her.

But yeah, not enough room for multiples, don't want her early. Taco, those are interesting ideas. I'm not so sure about the Tomb because it's an all-in play and I'd rather grind the games out, but Darkblast is very intriguing. I may have to try and shoehorn one into my listing. You should be running the Maze of Ith though. I held out for a long time on that one, and now that it's in, I can't believe I was so stubborn. The things it does with an active KotR... Being able to beat every turn AND pump/fetch utility lands is ridiculous.

I didn't know the situation, sorry about the post, and great work Matt. I hope to see this thread flourish because I think this deck is awesome. It's been top 8ing consistently at large tournaments, with Grand Prix Columbus and 3 out of 4 previous SCG 5k, and the Dutch championships.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2Rach

What utility lands, besides bog, do you guys prefer?

Volrath's Stronghold
Maze of Ith
Horizon Canopy
Karakas
Other?

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I've been running:
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
1x Bojuka Bog

These cards have all won me games on their own over the last couple weeks. I don't run Horizon Canopy because it's a one time draw effect, where the other cards have the ability to change the game for multiple turns. IMO, using Knight as a toolbox for answers with the utility lands is one of the better reasons to play this deck.

Finally, Maze is so freakin' effective that I've considered running a second one. Anybody else doing 2x Maze? Are there any downsides to doing it?


Cheers,

Jimmy

^ How do you fit all four in your manabase? I can't find room. Matt doesn't run Wastes, is that what you do?

For those that still run the 4 wastes/vinds package, how often do you find yourself destroying lands instead of creatures with Vindicate against opponents that have creature-based decks?

Also, I see you guys dropping the Verdicts. Didn't like 'em? Seems like multiple Hymns are good. I did a little testing and it's no Hymn, but it's still a good 142 with more utility late game. Taking them out seems to me to weaken the combo matchup, needing continuous discard.

This deck is just so packed with possibilities, I'm trying to fit 66 cards in a 60 card deck. Stupid Mox Diamonds, along with the extra lands, taking up space where I could run awesome spells instead. Stupid Wastes, Ports, Vindicates, Stifles, and Moons forcing me to run Mox Diamonds. @#$$!

EDIT:
If anyone's wondering, I got raped by Waste+Port in Goblins running a BGW build w/ no moxes and less lands(and no wastes). Around 70% of his wins were due to that combo. Damn Caleb. lol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 2Rach

For those that still run the 4 wastes/vinds package, how often do you find yourself destroying lands instead of creatures with Vindicate against opponents that have creature-based decks?

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Actually I do find myself targeting lands more often then creatures. It's great, not to mention once they can recover, I'm able to drop Desolation Angel to take out any chance of recovery.

I originally had Verdicts as well, so I converted to Hymns, which I had a playset of. Since I do target lands more often, the person would opt to discard irrelevant cards that didn't make much of a difference. Hymns are just better.

Best part of Rock is it can change to whoever wants it to fit them better. I tend to be more land aggressive, other people prefer more Swords and are more creature aggressive, as while others might want more discard.

@Mox Diamond comments, changing from Hierarchic to Mox, I love that they can give you a tempo change quicker then hierarchic, but oft times, I'll draw one off a dead hand and just /sigh, as opposed to drawing off Bob and thank the fact I didn't take damage. Nothing is perfect, I like having them post Desolation Angel to use.

@2Rach:

I dropped the Wastelands for mana consistency. I was tired of losing one color to Merfolk/Goblins and not being able to remove threats because I couldn't get green for Deed or white for STP/Vindicate, etc. Here's my mana base for the record:

4x Marsh Flats
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Scrubland
3x Bayou
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Forest
4x Utility lands

Also, I dropped 2x Gerrard's Verdicts for 2x Elspeth. My logic is that I already run 8 discard spells (4x Thoughtseize, 4x Hymn) so I figured the 9th and 10th discards spells had marginal impact, if any. However, Elspeth can win games on her own. This could change depending on the meta too--ie, heavy combo, etc.

Cheers,

Jimmy