Chalice, Trinisphere, and Counterbalance are all a lot scarier than Force of Will for a combo player. The best tools a blue mage has against combo are Counterbalance, Brainstorm, and Sensei's Divining Top followed very closely by a fast clock.
Printable View
Chalice, Trinisphere, and Counterbalance are all a lot scarier than Force of Will for a combo player. The best tools a blue mage has against combo are Counterbalance, Brainstorm, and Sensei's Divining Top followed very closely by a fast clock.
What's funny is I think I'm actually on the right track to handling both the aggro and combo. That Caw Blade deck I am playing around with has main deck counterspells, Forces, and the Sword to provide some discard. It's not bad against combo, though Spell pierces and Canonist out of the board shore it up some. Moat in the main is obviously dumb for aggro so I am not losing much by being better against combo. It's a fairly fast control deck so it feels like playing fish. It seems to be a mid-ground in all this that actually works.
We have a heavy top tier deck meta around here. TES, Ant, Merfolk, Junk, Goblins, Dredge, Dreadstill, Team America, and even 2 people have 43 lands put together. It's a pretty good test format for what I play around with. We'd have an SI player if he'd ever play. : P (Yeah Dan, I know you read this stuff)
The big issue here, as already somewhat enumerated, is that the metagame is unfriendly toward decks that are good against combo. Counterbalance isn't particularly viable right now, as has already been stated. The decks that REALLY take a shit on combo, such as Team America, Tempo Threshold, Dragon Stompy, and Dreadstill, simply aren't good against a meta with both a heavy vial aggro presence, and lots of G/x bigdudes.dec. Once people realize that playing aggro is bad in this meta, those decks will be good again and combo will retreat. For now though, it's an amazing time to be a combo player ;).
Also: In B4 somebody suggests a ban on LED, Time Spiral, or any associated card.
EDIT: I find it hilarious that there's actually a thread complaining about the diversity of the format. Go out and enjoy the 43957987 different available decks...
I think part of the problem is that the decks that are cheapest to build are vial aggro decks and G/x decks. It's not really an issue of people realizing these decks are bad and not playing them, because they are the go-to Legacy decks for a very large number of people who either can't afford or are unwilling to spend the money on other decks. As long as these decks remain popular, the decks you mentioned will remain unviable, and the combo issue will persist. Add to this the very wide range of combo decks making it near impossible to sideboard against all of them, and we end up with the current predicament.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
I don't think banning anything will ever solve this problem, as it seems to be a result of the rising prices of staple cards, and it will only get worse unless some key staples are made more available or viable alternatives (or just better hate cards in general) are printed.
That's just the thing. The format only really gives the appearance of diversity, when in reality it's just a slurry of midrange-aggro and combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
That's my point, there's nothing else to rely on because Spell Snare is awful vs Aeither Vial and Green Sun's Zenith and Spell Pierce is amazing vs Aether Vial and Green Sun's Zenith, so aggro-control has to play the sub-optimal counter MD and must play MD or SB cards that "shore up" the deck vs combo - Vendilion Clique, Meddling Mage and Enlightened Tutor and Co. respectively. Ux.dec actually has to respect Storm combo and SB for it now because they can't "lulz, Counterbalance!" they're way to a favorable match up (tho' I think they've still got a favorable match up once Enlightened Tutor is boarded in).Quote:
Originally Posted by SlopeeJ
You're overgeneralizing to a fault. Yes, there are combo decks present, but each is unique; Painter, Cephalid, Dredge, Storm, High Tide, etc all play differently from each other. It isn't like everyone is just playing TES, TES, TES, TES, TES at every SCG Open.Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
Mid-range aggro? There are dozens of competitive mid-range aggro decks, across all colors, that use a variety of methods to win the game. It isn't a case where every tourney is Junk, Junk, Junk, Junk, Junk.
You make it sound as though there's a couple combo decks and a couple mid-range aggro decks, and they are all interchangable with each other within their archetype. You couldn't be more wrong.
"There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers."
This is the natural evolution of Legacy. The consistency of the SCG circuit has created a critical mass where we are now seeing a developed and mature format with a diverse array of combo decks. It makes perfect sense when you think about it. When you have a format with this many different types of threats coming from both Aggro and Combo why would you try and answer them all by playing Control, because you can't.
That being said, I think the trend is going so far toward Combo that a UW CounterThopter deck should do well in the near future. I have played CounterTop decks for a long time and I"m reluctant to do so even now simply because of the diversity of threats. Why grind out games all day long where you have to earn every win when you could be doing something broken that gets free wins? If you can't beat em, join em.
Another thing to take note of is the emergence of multiple resilient combo decks with Force of Will. This is the most powerful strategy in the game, which is compounded when you have more then one Force of Will Combo deck. Necro, Trix, High Tide (the original), Academy, and more recently Reanimator and Flash are all examples of this truism. For anyone interested in reading about this theory check out articles by zvi mowshowitz.
Also note that the two new kids on the block, Spiral Tide & Painted Stone, both have tutors that work formerly were not heavily played, but work uniquely with there strategy to the point of being almost broken: Merchant Scroll & Intuition.
Legacy is very resilient. The metagame will adapt and we should see more balance in the coming months. However, I do believe that the format has matured to the point where combo is here to stay as a much larger metagame force then it has been in the past.
Just because Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors doesn't mean it's a good idea to eat nothing but ice cream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
This. We have reached a critical mass of combo decks, and at this point, most of the answers you pack will be the wrong ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by SMR0079
A BUNCH of different midrange, aggro, and combo decks is a hell of a lot better than "Goblins, Merfolk, Zoo, CB, maybe TES" like it was a few months ago. Keep in mind that like 30 different decks have made top 8 at the last half dozen 5ks.Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
QFT. I personally enjoy it, especially (and ironically) since this development flies in the face of WOTC's "policy" on combo (there's an Aaron Forsythe quote out there somewhere about how it should show up and win once in a while, but never be an established pillar of the metagame). Combo as a pillar of the metagame is something that hasn't existed since the banning of Mystical Tutor. I believe it should be an important force though, as this is an eternal format, and people like playing with powerful and complex strategies. Perhaps once the format settles a little (if it ever does) we'll see the return of dedicated control strategies to complete things.Quote:
Originally Posted by SMR0079
We get it, you hate combo decks. Seriously, enough is enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
Wow, anger problems much? I haven't said anywhere that I hate combo decks. I just think there are too many for the format to handle. When you've got ~10 different combo decks that are all making top 8 appearances, while G/x midrange decks are the only ones showing up with consistency, there's a problem. Control is nowhere in sight, and Vial Aggro has been thoroughly pushed into the lower tiers, placing occasionally but not with much regularity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
You may enjoy a metagame like that, but I don't think it's healthy.
Is too much viable combo choices really a problem when you look at the overall scope of the Legacy metagame? There is a format outside of the big SCG events.
I mean, the "overall" picture worldwide for both big and small tournaments for March was this:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...y&fecha=2011-3
Seems fine. CBTop builds underperforming as the 4c builds can't adapt to both an uptick in vial aggro and Knight of the Reliquary beatdown decks.
I'd love to see the metagame breakdown for these events (Glenn Jones at SCG will eventually post them). One thing that jumps out at me is why the storm combo decks aren't doing better. They should be beating the other combo decks on speed and should definitely be beating the vial aggro (yes, even Merfolk), Dredge, and G/x beatdown decks. I wonder if there's a coming metagame shift for the SCG tourneys where some combo decks (in particular Storm and High Tide) make other combo decks less appealing, and then the SB hate from the fair decks can compensate to focus on those decks and hope to dodge the less played ones.
It depends on whether the format is able to regulate itself. The last few times combo has risen to the top, things just never cleared up for some reason. As of right now, I think there's a red flag waving that it could get out of hand if an answer isn't found, but I don't think we're in danger of the format suddenly exploding in a frenzy of combo on combo action.Quote:
Originally Posted by routlaw
Guys, it's combo's time for now. Watch in 2 more SCG events, Countertop lists flood the Top8, then we bitch about Countertop for another month, then Vial decks come in and we bitch to ban Vial and Merfolks, then Zoo and GWx decks come in again.
The format is great right now. 1-2 tourneys don't tell you much about a metagame that's still fluctuating. It's not like Survival where we said "It's just 2 tournaments", and turned out to "It's just 10 tournaments", "It's just 50 tournaments", "Fuck, this is broken".
CB/Top is also a combo, and one of the most boring ones in the game. At least now we don't have to wait 10 turns and a million shuffle effects for Jace to show up and get it over with.
Although it's a combo in the literal sense, CBTop is not "combo" in the same sense that AnT, TES, Belcher, Cephalid, Dredge, etc are. CBTop has synergy and interacts well with each other, but the same can be said of Brainstorm + fetchland, Stoneforge + equipment, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ddt15
Control hasn't existed in Legacy since '07, and frankly fuck control, it's about as masterabotry as Storm combo except the decision trees are drastically simpler - at least aggro-control has the decency to interact by turning creatures sideways. Seriously, we've got Storm in Dark Ritual and Island variants, aggro-control in Ugw, Merfolk being it's usual metagame vs island.dec and G/w as the glass cannon vs Ugw and Merfolk with Counterbalance, Goblins and a ton of other tier 1.5 decks bringing up the rear. That's a decent metagame by any standard, because the glass cannon's are well positioned to move in and out of the metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
Wait until I unveil my Saproling Cluster + Ashnod's Altar + Fecundity + Goblin Bombardment combo, then you'll be sorry!
Except you're missing Dredge, Cephalid Breakfast, Elves, Painter, Belcher, and Burn (which is basically a combo deck) which are all also making Top8 appearances with some consistency right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Not anger problems. More like "exasperation," because these threads pop up every time combo comes out of its little corner and wins for a while. I'm not sure where you got the impression that the only non-combo decks making top eight appearances are G/x. Dozens of different decks have made T8 at 5ks recently, and unless I'm wrong there's no more than ten or so combo strategies among those. Sure, vial aggro and zoo aren't putting up the numbers they were, but they're also not massive chunks of tournaments as they were a few months ago. There is actual variety in deck choice, which makes things interesting. Of course, this also makes it difficult for aggro decks to sideboard enough hate to hate out all the different combo strategies. You may not think this meta is healthy, but I'm pretty happy that it isn't the Vial/Zoo/CB wankfest that we had right after the banning of Survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
Wait, Burn is a combo deck? Seriously, what screwed-up plane of existence are you living in right now? And Burn is taking advantage of the lack of CB. It's functionally an aggro deck that uses the stack, and so resists removal rather well, but is a dog to CB/Chalice.Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
Burn is essentially a combo deck. A pseudo-combo deck, but far closer to combo than a functional aggro deck. Burn goldfishes for turn 4 wins, uses the stack for non-creature spells, blanks opposing creature removal, but is fragile to CotV/CBTop... sounds like a combo deck to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar