SCG Article - DOOM on Time Spiral!!!

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Originally Posted by voltron00x

See, the thing is, that's what people said about TES, and ANT, and Reanimator, and so on, but it didn't come true. The format adapted AND people not as skilled didn't replicate those results. With regard to this deck, I'm not convinced the exact same thing isn't happening. Great players playing great decks before the format adopts always do well, period. Sure, the deck's damn good, and so are, what, 15-20 other decks?

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T.E.S. and Reanimator are much more vulnerable to hate than this deck is. Spiral Tide is able to sustain a large amount of hate due to the copious amount of draw and cantrip and unlike the decks you mentioned, and it doesn't require non-basic lands or an aggressive mulligan strategy to win games. A.N.T. and T.E.S. run their own selection of draw and cantrip, but they can hardly touch what this deck packs in its punches: the absurd ability to replenish itself and just win on the spot with a top-deck like Alix and Jesse were able to pull off. And even then, they sustained a critical amount of card-disadvantage when their opponents cast Hymns and Duresses against them like it was nothing. It's far easier for this deck to just win than those aforementioned as it doesn't just draw into unnecessary acceleration but sculpts its hands more evenly than any of those decks could ever do.

The question here is whether or not we can attribute the deck's recent string of success to the Hatfields based solely on their power of play, or what the deck itself is capable of doing on its own. And anyone who has played with or against this archetype in a similar fashion knows that the deck runs essentially on autopilot until the pivotal moment where the deck's pilot decides to "go off" and just win on the spot. Those combo decks you mentioned have the ability to sustain this action, but they are much more vulnerable to generic hate in the long-run and a deck like this which can replenish its hand and trick opponents into believing they are winning a "non-existent" battle (where life doesn't matter as it does in Reanimator with 'Reanimate' and in T.E.S. or A.N.T. with 'Ad Nauseam') is what gives Spiral Tide the advantage in the end.

The twenty life-points in Spiral Tide are almost like four(+) free Time Walks. You can't beat that.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

T.E.S. and Reanimator are much more vulnerable to hate than this deck is. Spiral Tide is able to sustain a large amount of hate due to the copious amount of draw and cantrip and unlike the decks you mentioned, and it doesn't require non-basic lands or an aggressive mulligan strategy to win games. A.N.T. and T.E.S. run their own selection of draw and cantrip, but they can hardly touch what this deck packs in its punches: the absurd ability to replenish itself and just win on the spot with a top-deck like Alix and Jesse were able to pull off. And even then, they sustained a critical amount of card-disadvantage when their opponents cast Hymns and Duresses against them like it was nothing. It's far easier for this deck to just win than those aforementioned as it doesn't just draw into unnecessary acceleration but sculpts its hands more evenly than any of those decks could ever do.

The question here is whether or not we can attribute the deck's recent string of success to the Hatfields based solely on their power of play, or what the deck itself is capable of doing on its own. And anyone who has played with or against this archetype in a similar fashion knows that the deck runs essentially on autopilot until the pivotal moment where the deck's pilot decides to "go off" and just win on the spot. Those combo decks you mentioned have the ability to sustain this action, but they are much more vulnerable to generic hate in the long-run and a deck like this which can replenish its hand and trick opponents into believing they are winning a "non-existent" battle (where life doesn't matter as it does in Reanimator with 'Reanimate' and in T.E.S. or A.N.T. with 'Ad Nauseam') is what gives Spiral Tide the advantage in the end.

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ANT and TES are capable of fighting this hate easily as well though. Playing TES (and I'm by no means a great TES player) I once fought through 4 Hymns, a Thoughtseize, a Moon effect, and a Pyrostatic Pillar in one game to pull out the win, because my opponent was unable to come up with a fast clock. The last time I played Tide I lost to one topdecked Hymn hitting both High Tide and Time Spiral. And let's not even get into what Extirpate does to tide combo...

As you said though, life doesn't matter much to Tide, which is nice. However, the deck makes up for that by being a turn or two slower than other storm combo. I don't think the deck is honestly any better than TES, it's simply resilient to different forms of hate.

ANT runs more cantrips than Spiral Tide. The "draw" in the deck is Meditate. What are you talking about in that post?

And top-decks? Are we seriously talking about whether ANT and TES have top-decks? Go watch the TES vs Burn match-up G3 from Top 8 in LA. Mountain, Goblin Guide, attack, trigger revealing LED, pass. That LED? That was a top-deck for the win.

Edit: post directed at Hollywood if that isn't clear

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Originally Posted by voltron00x

ANT runs more cantrips than Spiral Tide. The "draw" in the deck is Meditate. What are you talking about in that post?

And top-decks? Are we seriously talking about whether ANT and TES have top-decks? Go watch the TES vs Burn match-up G3 from Top 8 in LA. Mountain, Goblin Guide, attack, trigger revealing LED, pass. That LED? That was a top-deck for the win.

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And combo deck (or deck for that matter) can topdeck a win, especially those with powerful engine cards like Ad Nauseum or Time Spiral. This is not something that particularly worries me, although it was pretty funny when Alix Hatfield's opponent decided not to cut his deck and he ripped Time Spiral off the top ftw.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

T.E.S. and Reanimator are much more vulnerable to hate than this deck is. Spiral Tide is able to sustain a large amount of hate due to the copious amount of draw and cantrip and unlike the decks you mentioned, and it doesn't require non-basic lands or an aggressive mulligan strategy to win games. A.N.T. and T.E.S. run their own selection of draw and cantrip, but they can hardly touch what this deck packs in its punches: the absurd ability to replenish itself and just win on the spot with a top-deck like Alix and Jesse were able to pull off. And even then, they sustained a critical amount of card-disadvantage when their opponents cast Hymns and Duresses against them like it was nothing. It's far easier for this deck to just win than those aforementioned as it doesn't just draw into unnecessary acceleration but sculpts its hands more evenly than any of those decks could ever do. e.g. my buddy in my playgroup for the worst of luck has gotten stomped by Goblins Turn 1 Lackey Turn 2 siege-gang multiple times now when playing Spiral Tide. If it were ANT/TES, being able to go off on turn 2 in this scenario would have secured wins where Spiral Tide never would have been able to.

The question here is whether or not we can attribute the deck's recent string of success to the Hatfields based solely on their power of play, or what the deck itself is capable of doing on its own. And anyone who has played with or against this archetype in a similar fashion knows that the deck runs essentially on autopilot until the pivotal moment where the deck's pilot decides to "go off" and just win on the spot. Those combo decks you mentioned have the ability to sustain this action, but they are much more vulnerable to generic hate in the long-run and a deck like this which can replenish its hand and trick opponents into believing they are winning a "non-existent" battle (where life doesn't matter as it does in Reanimator with 'Reanimate' and in T.E.S. or A.N.T. with 'Ad Nauseam') is what gives Spiral Tide the advantage in the end.

The twenty life-points in Spiral Tide are almost like four(+) free Time Walks. You can't beat that.

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High Tide goldfishes 2 turns slower than most TES/ANT list, that's another huge factor to consider. The only reason I see High Tide being successful is because it is not hurt as much by the hate that TES/ANT faces, and it is specifically these decks that push out TES/ANT. It's true that High Tide is a more resilient combo deck, but its fundamental turn is still significantly slower, that is a big factor when the metagame shifts.

Lastly, if people really want to hate out Spiral Tide, it's quite simple: play Extirpates post-board (also with the rise of Ichorid, get some GY hate going guys!), and just play Solidarity. The reason why Time Spiral will probably never be banned is because when it gets popular, it's much easier to hate out that something like Survival. Just play Solidarity and go off on your opponent's Tide, you don't give a shit about Candelabras. Make them tap their Islands for you to win. That's IF Spiral Tide ever becomes that dominant (I'm not factoring Candelabra's cost factor in this analysis, i.e. assume Candles were cheap, you can still hate out Spiral Tide much easier than something like Survival, or the SCG writer's claim that Spiral Tide is the next thing closest to Hulk Flash! BBQSAUZ?)

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Just to reiterate that aside from the Hatfields, Ben Wienburg also came in 10th place with High Tide at Atlanta, Gerry Thompson came in 22nd at Memphis, and Kyle Morin 9th at Edison.

Also, on a somewhat related topic, Meditate at Star City is almost up to $10.00 now.

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And Caleb Durward made how many T16's with painter/stone before it broke wide open? Jacob Baugh made like 3 T16's with spiral/tide sans candelabra. Yeah these guys run good lists but the reason the Hatfield's are famous is because they can win with nearly anything. The deck is no better than any other combo deck. Two very good players won Opens on the back of nuts peels and suddenly the sky is falling? C'mon Hollywood, you're smarter than that...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Alix Hatfield T8 at the GP with Zoo with Sylvan Library? Wasn't this brand new tech at the time?

I believe he made top 8 3 times with Zoo at SCG events, including a win in 2009. I guess we're lucky they never banned Wild Nacatl!!! Here's a search of Hatfield in the SCG database from 2/2009-4/2011, Legacy only:

Naya Zoo 1st place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2009-09-13 Charlotte, North Carolina, United States
High Tide 1st place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2011-03-06 Edison, New Jersey, United States
High Tide 1st place Jesse Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2011-04-03 Atlanta, Georgia, United States
CounterTop Threshold 2nd place Jesse Hatfield Grand Prix Trial 2009-03-01 Roanoke, Virginia, United States
High Tide 3rd place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2011-04-03 Atlanta, Georgia, United States
New Horizons 4th place Jesse Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-06-06 Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States
Zoo 4th place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2009-06-21 Boston, Massachusetts, United States
Zoo 6th place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-02-28 Richmond, Virginia, United States
CounterTop Threshold 7th place Alix Hatfield Grand Prix Trial 2009-03-01 Roanoke, Virginia, United States
Ooze Survival 7th place Jesse Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-10-31 Charlotte, North Carolina, United States
Reanimator 8th place Jesse Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-05-02 Atlanta, Georgia, United States
Ooze Survival 9th place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-10-31 Charlotte, North Carolina, United States
Natural Horizons 11th place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2011-02-27 Washington, District of Columbia, United States
Reanimator 12th place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-05-02 Atlanta, Georgia, United States
U/G Survival 15th place Alix Hatfield StarCityGames.com Legacy Open 2010-09-19 Baltimore, Maryland, United States

See, Zoo and High Tide was clearly more broken than Survival. If the Hatfields were that amazing at Legacy, they would have owned with a broken deck. We need to ban Nacatl ASAP, that or we can ban the Hatfields.

Shouldn't high tide get out goldfished by fast aggro way more often than strom or other faster combo decks because it is relatively slow? I realize it is still faster but if its only by half a turn it should still lose fairly often?

High tide is already an amazingly good archtype at the moment. Combine that with some of the best legacy players in the format and that's a recipe for taking down Starcity tournaments.

Meh, time for Sinkhole to make a come back.

Why spend $$ on Sinkholes when Smallpox is much better.

Quickly skimmed it.
Not going to read the article but...

Shaheen doesn't know dick about Legacy. He was a local player in VA and I went to high school with him. He's good at T2 and really good at draft (and I would guess he's good at Ext though I've never seen his play). He doesn't really play Legacy though, well at least he didn't as of 6 months ago. I've tried to talk to him about Legacy before and some of his ideas were shaky to say the least. I know for a fact he took Belcher to the GP and went 0-X drop which should be all you need to know about his grasp on the meta as of the Summer. IMO it takes at least a year of following Legacy before you can consider writing an article about what's wrong with the format.

Not trying to be a dick rider, but if there was a Legacy Hall of Fame Alix Hatfield would be in it. Just look at his list of top 8's over the past 2 years. It's more Eternal tournaments then most of the people on these forums have even been to in the same time frame. Saying that a deck is too good just because Hatfield wins with it is like saying a basketball was too easy to shoot in the 90's because Michael Jordan hit so many fade away jump shots.

I think this conversation has diverted from the true problem with his article: his UW control list. Here's a few things I can list off that are completely wrong with his deck:
1. His "control" deck has only 19 lands; yes 23 mana sources... but (this leads me to the next problem)
2. Chrome Mox in a control shell is awful. You already lose in card advantage in Force of Will (which is a turn 1-2 card). Now he's going to be down -4 just to be able to do... what exactly? Oh, he wants to (next problem)
3. Cast Chalice of the Void presumably @ one. (next problem)
4. This turns off his Swords to Plowshares making the aggro match-up that he was trying to fix completely atrocious.

1-2 Path to Exile, 4 Swords to Plowshares and 4 Force of Will is generally enough to make it to turn 4 when you can start casting bombs.

As for his problems against combo, he is playing main deck Chalice of the Void and has access to turn 1 Counterspell (omg! Blowout!). Unfortunately, the deck has no clock, at least one that isn't super mana intensive.

His list looks super clunky, plays bad cards, doesn't have enough lands and can't actually beat a deck packing discard effects. Seems like a bad version of Caw Blade to me (hint: I'd rather play that in Legacy than his pile of garbage).

On the upside, he is playing Cunning Wish. I wasn't sold on the card until I did some testing tonight and was really wanting back in my main deck... so his article isn't completely useless. It reminded me what cards I need for a wishboard. Wait... Disenchant over Dismantling Blow? *sigh

I didn't read the whole article, but I did read his rant on the bottom about banning time spiral. First off, didn't most of you say survival was fine?

I'm not saying time spiral needs to be banned, but it is def very powerful and it truly sucks to play against. Having your opp play with themselves the whole round is pretty stupid. A combo deck that has this much card draw, tutors for win conditions, stable mana base, not just force but pact and tutors for pacts/force is pretty strong. The thing I mostly don't like about time spiral is merchant scroll, seems just like mystical tutor to me in the deck. Yes I'm aware 2mana sorcery and only gets instants, but it still tutors for the powerful cards.

Gonna be interesting if it keeps winning and how everything will unfold

If you really need to beat Spiral Tide, then play something with Natural Order. Resolving that card against before turn four usually means that you win. They get blown out by Terrastodon so hard, it's not even funny. You can either play something like AJ Sacher's Bant list or even Aggro Elves with Natural Order and Green Sun's Zenith. Just playing straight aggro doesn't seem like a particularly good idea to me. Since they can win on turn four rather easily, you might not always be able to race them. Naya Sligh with some amount of Red Elemental Blasts and perhaps some Gaddock Teegs in the sideboard might have a shot though.

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Originally Posted by Metalwalker

High Tide goldfishes 2 turns slower than most TES/ANT list, that's another huge factor to consider.
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Lastly, if people really want to hate out Spiral Tide, it's quite simple: play Extirpates post-board (also with the rise of Ichorid, get some GY hate going guys!), and just play Solidarity. The reason why Time Spiral will probably never be banned is because when it gets popular, it's much easier to hate out that something like Survival. Just play Solidarity and go off on your opponent's Tide, you don't give a shit about Candelabras. Make them tap their Islands for you to win.

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Before I start, a small disclaimer: I don't think that Time Spiral needs to be rebanned and I don't think it's the next Survival (at least not yet). However, I notice a strangely familiar pattern in your post...

See, when I read posts like yours, I have an irresistible feeling of déjà vu. When Survival was tearing the metagame left and right, half of the Sourcers wrote things very similar to yours: "it's slow and doesn't kill before turn 3, most likely before turn 4", "just FoW or Krosan Grip the Survival and you're all good", "just Extirpate the Vengevines and they're cooked", "just play ANT/TES/Enchantress/whatever and curbstomp them" and so on. As it turned out, none of these statements really mattered because Survival decks were extremely resilient and could win through a million obstacles (I still remember GerryT succesfully racing turn 2 Progenitus without even having Survival of the Fittest in play...).

With Spiral Tide it's mostly the same: yeah, it's relatively slow and theoretically could be hated in multiple ways. So what? I've seen Hatfields win through multiple Hymns and Thoughtseizes, through Trinispheres and Lodestone Golems, through giving their opponent FoW and a blue card after resolving Time Spiral... The list goes on. Time will tell but actually I wouldn't be surprised at all if half of the GP Providence Top 8 were Spiral Tides.

It's really more of a reaction of people's sideboards in my book. Ask to see a random player's sideboard sometime and check how many cards are good against combo. At most it's usually 4 unless they have a severe hatred of the decks. If it's a typical player, I usually see two cards halfway worth a crap vs combo and nothing else. Maybe a Krosan grip or something at best past that. It's not real surprising that people board less for it now with TES, ANT, and Belcher all putting up meh numbers.

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Originally Posted by voltron00x

I skipped a week this week.

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You ruined my Friday reading pleasure ;)