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(Unsurprisingly to those who know what decks I play) I think a much better shell for Oath is a Griselbrand storm deck. Oath is a 2-mana tinker for a lifelinking Bargain demon. You could also run Show and Tell or go with a more TinFins style reanimate package. Just start from the current Oath Long decks in Vintage and realize that Karakas just doesn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Oh, I've certainly considered that path. You can't directly emulate Long, though, because you don't have access to Wheel of Fortune, Windfall, Twister, Jar, and the other Draw 7s. As for the TinFins route, I don't know of any direct noncreature analogues for Children of Korlis, because Oathing into Children would be the most miserable thing ever. I guess there's like Taintet Sigil? That seems atrocious, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
Balance. Oath. Seriously? Those two shouldn't even be in the discussion for any 'lets see if this can be unbanned' testing. They both make the card type 'Creature' obsolete. All the mana accelerators fall into the same busted bucket. Balance. Retain priority sac LED. Cast XXXXXXX from my yard.
Of the tutors the only one that might merit a sniff would be Seal. It's a sorcery, costs a little life, puts on top. It's still pretty nuts in combo, in miracles but you might could try it. Consultation is clearly a never ever, Demonic is close behind with Vampiric and Mystical also being too good and bringing up the rear.
I think Jar is bad news as well having to wait until EoT to discard the new hand might hold it back slightly but it's still a pretty boss card for combo.
Really the cards that can come off and are worth testing would be
- Mind Twist
- Survival of the Fittest
- Black Vise
- Earthcraft
nothing that's happening with any of these cards is any faster, broken, unfair then what's happening with Griselbrand, Dark Ritual or Brainstorm in a variety of ways right now ... Mind Twist and Black Vise are awful top decks, don't affect the board in anyway and are worse in most situations than cards that already exist and see play (point discard, hymn, bolt). Earthcraft is a middle road mana acceleration card when played fairly and a 2 card combo that doesn't win the game immediately, doesn't win that turn, leaves you with 1,000,000 tapped squirrels that have to untap and attack to win, that requires a basic forest and 1GG.
Would SotF help a mid range G/w or G/x/x deck be more consistant? Sure but at the cost of doing nothing on your second turn. People love to say you untap and win the game with Survival but it's just not the case - you need other cards or a goldfish opponent. I fail to see how some 4/3 non evaders attacking on the 3rd or 4th turn is anymore broken then entomb -> griselbrand. Since it's banning they've printed graveyard hate in fucking droves, and without the Vengevine engine you have to you know ... cast the creatures you discard-tutor for? Loyal Retainers? Fucking please. I have to cast a 1WW man to get Griselbrand back? Sounds way fairer then a typical Wednesday at my store.
solomoxencryptvaultlotus ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I agree completely. While it is certainly fun to think about the brown things that can be done with all the unfair banned cards, if the goal is to "to actually influence DCI unbanning policy" we should be looking at the cards that we can get off. And heck, if we get a card or two knocked off the list, maybe that can start a slippery slope and get some of those less-fair cards unbanned!Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Mentioned Lotus twice FYIQuote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Also Worldgorger Dragon. I doubt it would even see play, but it does never do anything fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
Anyone want to test on play.woogerworks.com?
SAll of the cards you mentioned as missing from Long don't matter. It's Wish->Will+Desire that matters. The draw7s are actively bad in several matchups and the deck is as deadly in vintage using a playset of Ad Nauseams (not with Oath) just to get Wish->Will+Desire lets the deck play as a a degenerate combo deck early AND late.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I'm unconvinced that you actually would need Griselbrand in legacy. You can actually just Oath into nothing, flashback memory's journey to put back LED, LED, LED and then draw LED, sac it for blue to flashback Deep anal and then sac the LEDs for RRRBBB and flashback past in flames floating RB (U + RR + BB to cast it). You then cast Rituals, Rites, and Wish->Tendrils. You stack your deck with cards like Duress and Thoughtseize. The only reason to Grisel in Vintage is that the blue decks have more disruption than you (and all of it matters) while with MUD, you're not actually guaranteed of being able to cast those cards. Legacy doesn't really suffer from this.
Oh, and for good measure, Oath randomly solves postboard matchups by just putting a giant fucking creature that you side in into play. Your plan B in g1 is as-is TES. Nice deck.
No unmask in that necro list Carsten? Or LED + infernal tutor? I know what I would be running necro in, and it wouldn't be a deck with 12 cantrips + force of will. I'd be going balls out for the fastest possible necro and consequently activations. I feel very tempted to break demonic consultation all of a sudden in SI. Card is so bonkers. Or mystical tinfins, as that would be absurdly powerful in all likelihood.
WGD is terrible. I've said they should unban it for years, as the card isn't good in legacy. Especially with deathrite in the format now.
If I played bargain in legacy, it would be some sort of tinfins show and tell list in all likelihood. Show and tell bargain/griselbrand into play. Draw all the cards. Win. Entomb, shallow grave, draw all the cards, win. Children of korlis gets to make an appearance once again and win the game for me as the one mana ancestral recall x7.
Agree with Emidln. Oath in legacy is like hermit druid might be. Dump library into yard, memory's journey triple LED, draw all, PiF, win with ease. Oath is ridiculously resilient for his other reason too. Resolved this oath trigger postboard, you have a leyline of the void. Oops, looks like I just put griselbrand/emrakul/broken creature here into play and won afterwards.
Skullclamp is not the most unfair thing you can be doing if you can play with any banned card. That right belows to yawg's win and necropotence, yawg's win easily edging out necro because of quadruple LED and quadruple burning wish like old long decks. Only missing cards are the busted draw 7's and some of the more broken accel like moxen, lotus #5, mana vault, mana crypt, etc. etc.
If we're just devolving into what cards could be unbanned, I think Mana Drain is the clear winner. It has been banned ever since the birth of Legacy in 2004 and it wasn't even played in 1.5 before then very much. I suspect testing with it would reveal its unbanworthiness. Although I haven't played vintage in over a decade, I can only recall it ever being really good in The Deck. At best it would make control decks slightly better (e.g., earlier Helm / Jace), which is similar to the way The Deck functioned back in the day (when 4x Mana Drain was the norm -- I doubt you'd see 4x nowadays due to the proliferation of combo and necessity of Turn 1/0 counters).
If I was going to pick a card it would probably be Skullclamp. I'm pretty sure the deck that could abuse it best would be Affinity with Elves a close second. Affinity has easier access to Skullclamp via Steelshaper's Gift. You really just go nuts and you can even run some additional moxes to supplement Opals, for extra explosiveness. I think you probably want some number of Cabal Therapies to hit the Null Rods and other hate cards. 'Clamp does a good job of powering up artifact-centric decks and it adds another aggressive deck to the format. That makes it very much worth exploring.
My problem with Clamp is that in elves, it just gets too broken nearly immediately. Skullclamping a Wirewood Herald has got to be one of the best feelings in the world when playing an elf combo deck. You very quickly draw enough cards to hit a Staff of Domination, or hit Ezuri, and you blow up the world right then, there is no passing of a turn, Concordant Crossroads makes sure of that. That deck is very very very good, I ran it in vintage and beat Belcher and Control Slaver with consistency, I am not joking. Affinity gets some good use, but elves can just win now if you do not answer it immediately. Even then with the way that deck works, if you stop the clamp, they might take the board advantage and just bum rush you. Seriously, with that deck alone, leave the card be. It is a slower combo kill by the way and I do understand that, but so is Goblin Recruiter, they both leave good aggro decks behind if you just stop the combo.
Yeah I used to play SkullClamp Elves in Pauper and it was still a turn 3 combo most of the time if you opened with a Skullclamp and this was pre-Visionary and without Uncommon Elves or Rares.Quote:
Originally Posted by edgarps22
You don't have to play Skullclamp with combo, you can just grind out infinite card advantage in something like Zombies + Clamp. Or anything with Lingering Souls + Bloodghast. The card's retarded busted in half and should never be unbanned.
Interesting facts:
Oath(Banned) vs S&T(Legal)
Both emeblers
Oath:
-require creature on opponent site (not a problem with a forbidden orchidea or even beast within).
-require proper build - put random creature, and only a creature (not really random on proper build)
+mill cards into graveyard (that's helping mostly - open additonal options)
+its only 1G cost (good and bad dodge flusterstorm, but not avoiding spell snare)
-gravedigger's cage affected
-its a permanent and trigger next turn on upkeep
S&T:
-its mirror effect (that's huge disadvantage)
-require a good target in hand
+its a spell where putting permanent on resolve - so basically after it resolve you can't stopping draw 7 from Giselband or other triggers.
+its blue can be used as FoW fuel
-3 CMC (harder to dodge spell pierce and flusterstorm, but avoiding spell snare)
Before Emrakul and mostly a Griselbrand S&T decks wasn't a problem - now they're most like insta wins combodecks similar to Long in vintage.
Question for you:
Is Oath and S&T could coexist in legacy when Griselbrand and/or Emrakul would be banned ? I think they could.
Oath is One mana cheaper than S&T and a One-Card-Combo unlike the blue sorcery. There IS a large power gap between them. Oath is far more broken than S&T in a similar way Tinker is.
Banning dozens of Creatures in favor of an engine card is against the politics of WotC which they have shown in the explanation of the Survival-ban. There is no chance oath can exist in Legacy without warping the whole format to a state in which Running creatures becomes a real disadvantage because all other Decks from counterbalance-Control to Storm (Griselbrand!) runs oath
Sounds you Never played 1.5 or Vintage tbh. Mana Drain was a 1.5 Landstill staple and would accelerate todays Blue decks into protected Turn 3 Jaces or Batterskulls. Drain into Jace into Brainstorm ability into Drain WAS nutty the Last Time i tested it then the discussion in the regular B&R thread appeared. Drain is a vintage Control staple ... ever was, Never disappeared except a Popularity low in the blazing fast Second gush era together with Flash and MUD in the meta. Except Chang Staxx and Dredge the Card was in every GenCon Championship deck in the last 10 years afaik. Drain still remains it's Spot in vintage aside mental misstep. Atm there is a discussion about the value of spell Pierce vs counterspell in Blue Jace.decs on the board. Moreover I doubt Blue decks either needs a push After Terminus or a third hilarious expensive playset aside Jace and FoWQuote:
Originally Posted by pavlaugh
Edit: Then did this thread develop into a b&r thread 2.0? 100% of the discussions about clamp, drain, oath and other shit are covered in the thread mentioned for such discussions. I urge a mod to lock this one soon because it appears that this one develops into a Mimikry
It really shouldn't get locked. This is a discussion on reading some of the banned cards to see if they are still ban worthy. I think mana drain is a fine one to test. Also I believe that if you are testinga card you could add that card to the opposing deck as well. I thinkearth craft is one that should be treated as well. Has any one gotten any testing in yet?
I think Survival is safe to come off, in all honesty. Sure, they just banned the card but this was before all the hate was running around.
The cards I think that are safe to unban:
Survival of the Fittest
Oath of Druids
Earthcraft
EDIT: I think I'm gonna pick up a playset of Survivals, because I think its going to come back. And sooner than expected, too.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...e-The-B-R-List
An entire article on something I posted about a while ago? Hooray me!
-Matt