Esperblade

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Originally Posted by Kich867

Punishing Jund is bad game one, which means sometimes they can pull it out in another game, but Rest In Peace literally shits on their entire deck and smart play will dictate that it likely won't be abrupt decayed.

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I don't think most Esper decks run Rest in Peace. Unlike Surgical Extraction, which is good with Snapcaster, and Nihil Spellbomb, which is good with Academy Ruins, Rest in Peace is a nonbo with both cards plus Lingering Souls, plus Esper has no way to combo with RiP. Plus RiP is not too bad to play around: you just keep Punishing Fire in your hand until you draw one of 4 Decays, bouncing Fire back if it's in your graveyard in response to RiP. I mean, Esper can sometimes back all that up with discard plus a quick Batterskull and a bunch of Spirit tokens and just win, but Punishing Jund has both the more aggressive start and the stronger late game, so Esper really needs to dominate the midgame.

How is Esper's matchup with Team America? I've played the match enough to know that it's very interesting and feels pretty close, but not enough to reach a conclusion.

In addition to 12 post, I've found punishing fire lock very difficult to beat for Esperblade. Game 1 comes down to whether or not grove + fires decides to show up early enough, and the subsequent games are usually about whether their is an opportunity to get either the groves or fires extracted/ removed with other GY hate.

Storm variants preboard (TES/AnT/DDFT/High Tide) feel unfavorable for esper (maybe like 45% esper-55% storm), postboard is dictated by the amount of cards each has against each other. Extracting a tutor/high tide can lead to quick wins, as can properly timed cliques, but having discard + counters + clock + lands is really unlikely. Feels about 50/50 for the match.

Esper tends to have the most trouble against archetypes very much dedicated to one line of play. Since esper has so many varied lines of play, it often is not optimized well enough (at least game 1) to properly deal with a deck hellbent on a particular route to victory. In contrast though, none of the matchups are so horrendous as to be considered near autolosses, and you have game against pretty much anything else an event throws at you.

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

How is Esper's matchup with Team America? I've played the match enough to know that it's very interesting and feels pretty close, but not enough to reach a conclusion.

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Based on discussions from the Team America thread, Dan Signorini considered Esper a relatively bad matchup until he started playing Sinkholes. I imagine it's slightly favorable for Dan, but assuming two pilots of comparable skill, I think Esper is ahead here.

I think Esper has a pretty favorable matchup against BUG control though. Lingering Souls matches well with both Planeswalkers and a Jitte hit owns almost all of BUG's threats.

Something people really need to take into account is the experience of the player. Esper, RUG, Storm combo, these decks reward good play on a level that very few other decks do (take a look at Bryant Cook's victory at SCG DC this weekend, fucking masterful). It's not about knowing little tricks with your deck, or having full knowledge of your deck and what it's capable of, it's genuinely understanding the game, understanding your options, and more importantly understanding your opponent's options at any given moment.

A skilled pilot who's often two to three turns ahead of the current game state...I'd go so far as to say their win% goes up by as much as 40% depending on how skilled the opponent is. Esper is a deck that isn't beaten by any particular archetype*, it's beaten by players. You have to be better at your deck, at that moment, than they are at Esper to beat them. And if they're a lot better at Esper than you are at your deck, you'll very, very rarely eek out wins.

The reason it's such a good deck isn't that it's necessarily resilient or flexible or has the answers, it's that the skill cap to play the deck is a lot higher than others, and the only way to topple someone who's -really- fucking good at playing it is being better than they are at a deck with a skill cap that is just as high or maybe higher. This is why, quite frankly, a Sneak&Show player won't often beat a very skilled Esper pilot. Sneak&Show doesn't have much control over the game, it's a lot of hoping, and it's real all-in on this one thing working out. I know people bitch about it a lot, but from a real objective point of view, the skill cap of Show And Tell decks just isn't there. It's not nearly as high as Esper nor does it reward better play -nearly- as well as Esper does.

And I would say contrary to the point above, any deck that's real focused on doing one thing gets -smashed- by Esper. They simply turn into whatever they need to do to stone-cold rape that strategy. Game one is almost always even, and post-board is almost always in their favor because they take out all dead cards and bring in bombs against you, and not a lot really hoses them back.

* Except 12-post which is an abysmally almost unwinnable match. It's winnable, but has a lot more to do with them getting screwed. Punishing Jund is an issue as well, but those are the only two decks that are actually positive against them.

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Originally Posted by Kich867

And I would say contrary to the point above, any deck that's real focused on doing one thing gets -smashed- by Esper. They simply turn into whatever they need to do to stone-cold rape that strategy. Game one is almost always even, and post-board is almost always in their favor because they take out all dead cards and bring in bombs against you, and not a lot really hoses them back.

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Certainly the esper shell is flexible enough to board into methods of completely shutting down single minded strategies. I just don't believe the flexible but not optimal in any one matchup approach to esper's main is good enough to consistently stop scapeshift, loam, punishing fire, CBtop engines. The Esper methods for interaction can very often be overloaded during game 1's, and that at least makes the matches more troublesome.

Agreed though, if Esper is prepared for it, games 2/3 will not be easy for the opponent.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

"Knowing how to play against RUG" makes the vast majority of decks immune to RUG. The fact that RUG is still one of the top decks in the format indicates that people either don't know how to play against it, or that playing around it is not as easy as you make it sound. Anyway, as far as Tier 1 decks are concerned, RUG is probably the best one if you're looking to have decent combo and Esper matchups. You bite it to Jund, but hey, nothing's perfect.

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Now, I understand where you come from, and I agree with you, to some extend. However, it also shows that I made a poor job of actually explaining my point, so I'll elaborate. What I wanted to say, is the fact that personally, I feel like esper has all the necessary tools to fight at least on par against RUG. However, how many games have I seen the esper player just lose the game because he sequenced his cards incorrectly, or tries to jam his game winning cards quickly, sometimes playing straight into ''daze your spell, stifle your response fetch, untap waste your tundra and smash you with that mangoose you can't deal with. Nice empty board, by the way''. And then they just die, without even having the chance to play their cards. Even now, I still see a lot of those kind of games, and that's what I mean with '' not knowing how to play against them''. Now, no, it really isn't as easy as I make it sound , but esper (especially esper) really has the tools to make it out of there alive, and fight for a 50-50 chance pre-board (NOT a bad matchup pourcentage, if you ask me). As such, as an esper pilot, if you asked me if I was ever afraid of a RUG player, I would tell you no. I would tell you that in that matchup, I feel very confident to take the 2 games I need. Unlike, say, against 12 post.

I would still say that the matchup is about even preboard , and favors stoneblade post-board (especially because of cards like perish, or even supreme verdict).

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Originally Posted by Iron Buddha

Just play Humility...

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Humility post board isn't actually that good, especially when they probably will just repeal/grip it. Or all is dust you, with boseiju backup (depending on the version). Or emrakul you forever with a karakas. Humility usually just slows them down, as you still don't have a scary enough clock to threaten them anyways.

The best answer that a 12-post player has against Humility is casting Ulamog...bye bye humility :) Once Eye of Ugin is out, there is very little that an Esper player can do

hm, maybe Cunning Wish? So you can put 1 Humility mainboard and dig it up via ET, Stifle counters the the Ulamog trigger and Mindbreak trap counters Emrakul.

How is Jund beating them? Do they simply have a better clock?

Jund is disrupting their hand and putting up a clock at the same time.

I think Punishing Jund is easily the worst tier 1 matchup for Esper. Fortunately for Esper, Jund has a very difficult time with combo decks and has been on the decline. Honestly, Esper is a great choice for SCG Opens right now.

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

I think Punishing Jund is easily the worst tier 1 matchup for Esper. Fortunately for Esper, Jund has a very difficult time with combo decks and has been on the decline. Honestly, Esper is a great choice for SCG Opens right now.

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This, as far as Esper's most difficult match ups are concerned Jund with Punishing Fire and Storm are the closest to coin-flipping or playing from behind, and I think the only reason Storm is close is because Esper players are durdling with Karakas and Academy instead of playing 3 Wasteland. I didn't realize Posts was a real deck, but I imagine it'd be a difficult matchup.

Esper is just the kind of deck every Pro wants to take to an Open, you're never going to face a significantly bad match up - it's kind of like Goblins way back in the day.

Lands is unbelievably bad.

slightly better after the surgicals come in, but its just a nightmare. tabernacle + several maze of ith + recurring wastelands is just too much.

Death and taxes is supposed to have a good match-up vs Stoneblade decks.

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Originally Posted by countorlandea

Lands is unbelievably bad.

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This post has a double meaning by the way: bad for the Esper player and bad for the Lands player.

Enchantress goes in dry if they land white leyline.

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Originally Posted by countorlandea

Lands is unbelievably bad.

slightly better after the surgicals come in, but its just a nightmare. tabernacle + several maze of ith + recurring wastelands is just too much.

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You only plan in the matchup is to land and protect Jace. If you are trying to aggro them out with lingering souls, you are doing it wrong. It is not great, but not as bad as you make it sound.

Source: Lived near/tested against Mchainmail (Michael Caffery) for 2 years while he was on the deck. It does not interact too well with jace.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

You only plan in the matchup is to land and protect Jace. If you are trying to aggro them out with lingering souls, you are doing it wrong. It is not great, but not as bad as you make it sound.

Source: Lived near/tested against Mchainmail (Michael Caffery) for 2 years while he was on the deck. It does not interact too well with jace.

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The latest versions of Lands pack Punishing Fire that makes managing Jace a lot easier.

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Originally Posted by Raystar

The latest versions of Lands pack Punishing Fire that makes managing Jace a lot easier.

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That's fair, that is not a change I've had experience with. Until Esper looks to extirpate/RiP instead of surgical, I can see why it's now considered terrible.

EDIT: I'm an idiot, extirpate doesn't do anything different against grove's mana ability and punishing fire trigger.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

EDIT: I'm an idiot, extirpate doesn't do anything different against grove's mana ability and punishing fire trigger.

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Punishing Fire is pretty hard to get rid of. You need RiP or something static to ensure it doesn't just get triggered by a Grove.