Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thecrav
I think this thread will eventually turn into another reserved list dicussion!
So I guess my take: I would perfectly happy if my collection's value was cut in half if it meant twice as many people playing legacy at my LGS.
I'll go out on a limb and say it would be a win-win for the Legacy community and Wizards if 80% or more of players on here would support Legacy on MTGO, and Legacy wouldn't "die."
Players (at least for now) get access to cards at cheaper prices
Players (given their local area) get access to a higher caliber play
Wizards gets a control environment to prove that abolishment of the reserve list is good for eternal formats, and could prove the impetus to persue it's abolishment in paper. (Reserve list does not exist online)
Wizards gets a direct cut, and therefore direct involvement
...I could go on. Supporting Legacy online is supporting it everywhere.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
I'll go out on a limb and say it would be a win-win for the Legacy community and Wizards if 80% or more of players on here would support Legacy on MTGO, and Legacy wouldn't "die."
Players (at least for now) get access to cards at cheaper prices
Players (given their local area) get access to a higher caliber play
Wizards gets a control environment to prove that abolishment of the reserve list is good for eternal formats, and could prove the impetus to persue it's abolishment in paper. (Reserve list does not exist online)
Wizards gets a direct cut, and therefore direct involvement
...I could go on. Supporting Legacy online is supporting it everywhere.
I will never pay into MTGO, unless each card was a fixed cost, and boosters were greatly reduced in price. The fact of the matter is that you don't "own" cards on MTGO. You're leasing them. And they're not even cards, they're just images. At any time, WotC can revoke your entire collection without notice. If Hasbro/WotC was sold, the new owner could shut MTGO down, and you'd have zero recourse.
At least with physical cards, I am not restricted by whether or not WotC exists. If WotC poofed into the ether right this minute, I would still be able to play Magic. If my collection was in MTGO, I'd simply be screwed out of thousands of dollars.
Given that *HUGE* risk (anyone that has been around the internet for a while should know these services are not eternal, and there is no compensation if they are shut down for whatever reason), the cards (and esp. sealed product) should not cost anywhere near the same amount as actual physical cards (which you OWN, and are not LEASING, unlike MTGO).
Now, do I think MTGO will disappear over night like that? No. Even if Hasbro were bought out entirely, whatever company owned them would almost certainly still support MTGO. But it's a non-zero factor and *GREATLY* increases risk, and hugely decreases any value the cards have.
MTGO is not an answer to Legacy's problems with the reserved list, at all.
Not to mention that there's also the issue of MTGO being a pale imitation of the real game, due to complete lack of social interaction, which is a huge draw for the game.
If I could buy complete sets for a flat rate, MTGO might be worth it. As it is, it's not even remotely a replacement. Way too much risk in leasing digital objects.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ankharlyn
If I could buy complete sets for a flat rate, MTGO might be worth it. As it is, it's not even remotely a replacement. Way too much risk in leasing digital objects.
You can. Most Standard sets go for about 90-110$ per.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
I'm pretty stoked I got more lotus petals.
Thanks legendary rule.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thecrav
I think this thread will eventually turn into another reserved list dicussion!
So I guess my take: I would perfectly happy if my collection's value was cut in half if it meant twice as many people playing legacy at my LGS.
Hard to see our collections tanking too badly if twice as many people are playing the format. :eyebrow:
I'll go out on a limb and say the Washington D.C. Legacy GP is the biggest 'Merican Legacy GP ever and that there will be an unbanning in the BNR announcement a few weeks prior.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
Thespian Stage / Dark Depths is overhyped garbage. It will win some games against scrubs, but against any player worth their salt it will be a colossal waste of time and resources.
this 100%
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
You can. Most Standard sets go for about 90-110$ per.
I wasn't talking about buying from bots after people have opened booster packs. I'm talking about MTGO offering the set for like $30-40 on initial release. Probably even playset to be really worth it.
Of course, that wouldn't work well with the current set redemption stuff, but I'd trade set redemption for being able to just buy all the cards I'd need on MTGO for a low rate. Paying the price of real cards simply to lease images is pretty insane, especially given the randomization.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ankharlyn
I wasn't talking about buying from bots after people have opened booster packs. I'm talking about MTGO offering the set for like $30-40 on initial release. Probably even playset to be really worth it.
Of course, that wouldn't work well with the current set redemption stuff, but I'd trade set redemption for being able to just buy all the cards I'd need on MTGO for a low rate. Paying the price of real cards simply to lease images is pretty insane, especially given the randomization.
Dude, pass over that joint once you toke. That's some primo grass.
i.e., you're a fool for thinking a) they would give away that shit so cheaply b) that sets of magic are worth so low. I'll grant you that you were going out on a limb, but I see no possible way for this to be beneficial for Paper Magic, as doing so would undercut it so severely.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ankharlyn
I will never pay into MTGO, unless each card was a fixed cost, and boosters were greatly reduced in price. The fact of the matter is that you don't "own" cards on MTGO. You're leasing them. And they're not even cards, they're just images. At any time, WotC can revoke your entire collection without notice. If Hasbro/WotC was sold, the new owner could shut MTGO down, and you'd have zero recourse.
At least with physical cards, I am not restricted by whether or not WotC exists. If WotC poofed into the ether right this minute, I would still be able to play Magic. If my collection was in MTGO, I'd simply be screwed out of thousands of dollars.
There are a few things you are saying here.
*You say not having physical cards is a detriment to your control of them. This is true is is the direct correlation to your faith in Wizards. Just like the Dollar is faith in the US Government. No question. However, the more people play the more value they have.
*You imply that playing online has to replace paper. I see it as a supplement.
*You say that you would loose $1000's of $. Magic Online is different. Cards are very liquid. At 4:47AM on Christmas day if I want to sell my LED I can for a roughly 8% loss to a bot, and I can buy anything from a bot (as long as it is in stock.) In short. Since the cards are so liquid I see no reason to have more than (1) Legacy deck at a time personally. For a tier deck that could be anywhere from $150 to $800ish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ankharlyn
Given that *HUGE* risk (anyone that has been around the internet for a while should know these services are not eternal, and there is no compensation if they are shut down for whatever reason), the cards (and esp. sealed product) should not cost anywhere near the same amount as actual physical cards (which you OWN, and are not LEASING, unlike MTGO).
A good number of Legacy staples are significantly less. Karakas comes to mind. $100 in paper $2-3 online.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ankharlyn
Not to mention that there's also the issue of MTGO being a pale imitation of the real game, due to complete lack of social interaction, which is a huge draw for the game.
I do agree with this, but it could be improved by Wizards to include web chat. I will say though there is a lot of chat comradery online that I do enjoy. I think it's awesome that I can play with Koby for example when we are on different coasts. I chat with a number of Sourcers on there regularly, and banter about quite a bit. More than you would think.
I took about a month break and popped online for a few minute, and had an influx of messages. I had played online for about a month and a half prior to the break. I was flattered and taken back. It was a true testament to the community and the comradery that does exist online. Since my MTGO name is the same as my Source name I even get random people saying hi and talking shop. There is comradery, but it is different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ankharlyn
If I could buy complete sets for a flat rate, MTGO might be worth it. As it is, it's not even remotely a replacement. Way too much risk in leasing digital objects.
This has been answered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ankharlyn
I wasn't talking about buying from bots after people have opened booster packs. I'm talking about MTGO offering the set for like $30-40 on initial release. Probably even playset to be really worth it.
Of course, that wouldn't work well with the current set redemption stuff, but I'd trade set redemption for being able to just buy all the cards I'd need on MTGO for a low rate. Paying the price of real cards simply to lease images is pretty insane, especially given the randomization.
Here is the thing about Legacy online. When you have a deck in your possession at a split second is Wizards closed MTGO (which they would be out of their minds to do given the number of drafts I see fire on there) you could be out the money you put into the deck. However, whenever you want to sell out you could do so at a moments notice for about roughly lets just say 10-15% loss. (that might be too high) If you win any tournaments or 1-1's you can very quickly go into the black. I haven't run the numbers, but from a relatively mediocre skilled player I think I have slightly gained or have broken even online thus far if I were to sell out today.
There are a lot of pros to to playing online, just read through the MTGO Legacy questions thread. ...but I can see you may just not want to.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
Dude, pass over that joint once you toke. That's some primo grass.
i.e., you're a fool for thinking a) they would give away that shit so cheaply b) that sets of magic are worth so low. I'll grant you that you were going out on a limb, but I see no possible way for this to be beneficial for Paper Magic, as doing so would undercut it so severely.
It's not foolish when you understand you don't own your digital images of cards, and are merely leasing them. That impacts the value by an incredible amount. What you're saying is equivalent to telling a car dealer you'd lease a car from them for the price you could buy the same car from another dealer, every month. Except you're leasing, and don't actually have ownership of anything. If you actually think that, I have a car I'll lease to you for only $32,000 per month. You're welcome to pretend you own it, despite it being leased.
It's extremely naive of you to treat MTGO card leasing as if you actually owned anything. The prices on MTGO should reflect the fact that you're leasing, and they don't.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Im not exactly sure what you are getting at about the leasing or whatever. Im sure that despite not logging into my account in around a year that my shitty warp world deck from extended three years ago is still on there as well as all of the random crappy cards that I have collected through drafting a few times... I dont think them deleting your cards or whatever is quite as simple as you think.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Im not exactly sure what you are getting at about the leasing or whatever. Im sure that despite not logging into my account in around a year that my shitty warp world deck from extended three years ago is still on there as well as all of the random crappy cards that I have collected through drafting a few times... I dont think them deleting your cards or whatever is quite as simple as you think.
Pretty irrelevant. You still don't own them. If, for whatever reason, WotC felt the need to shut down the service or revoke your cards, you have zero recourse. You are leasing the images, you don't own them. That decreases their value by a massive amount. The prices they charge currently don't reflect that at all.
It's all fine and well to pretend that MTGO is a service that will never go away, but (and I assume a lot of people here haven't experienced this, thus the fantasy land mentality thinking that you own the card images you've leased) as has been shown by countless other services where they sell you content in the same fashion, it is very much a thing that can happen.
The point is, leasing cards on MTGO is a piss poor replacement for owning actual cards, which are not shackled to MTGO still existing.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
I go out on a limb and say that everyone who claims that Jace got better (or worse) with the new rules does not understand basic logic.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ankharlyn
It's not foolish when you understand you don't own your digital images of cards, and are merely leasing them. That impacts the value by an incredible amount. What you're saying is equivalent to telling a car dealer you'd lease a car from them for the price you could buy the same car from another dealer, every month. Except you're leasing, and don't actually have ownership of anything. If you actually think that, I have a car I'll lease to you for only $32,000 per month. You're welcome to pretend you own it, despite it being leased.
It's extremely naive of you to treat MTGO card leasing as if you actually owned anything.
I understand what you're saying that we as consumers don't own the rights to the digital media. We also don't own the servers, or the code-base either. We (users of MTGO) have to agree to Wizards' terms of service to be able to play each time we load the program.
Your example doesn't make much sense however. If we go by your rubric, then I would be paying $3.99 for each booster on my account each month just for being in my account. That can't be farther from the truth. You buy it once and you keep it without any additional fees. You could trade it for its market value on the open marketplace. You could open it for the contents inside, that once again remain with your account. If the comparison you're making is that we're paying to maintain two collections, then yes I agree. I have a set of Force of Wills online and a set in paper. But I cannot use them interchangeably because they are two different games. In the online version, I can join Daily Events in the comfort of my own home while watching TV and sitting in my underwear while playing a 4 round Legacy event. In the paper version, I have to drive out to a crowded and often stinky game shop, shuffle endlessly, and wait around while noobs try to figure out how the rules work and misplay left and right. I have no qualms with playing the online version for this reason, and don't suspect my "collection" is at risk of evaporating in front of my very eyes. If I did have those reservations (which I do from time to time based on how WotC runs their business), I push to liquidate the portion that I do not want to risk.
Am I biased? Certainly. But at least on MTGO every player is forced to play by the rules of the game; while in paper there's a lot more grey area. I deal with specific and known trade margins that are much better than any paper vendor can offer. I don't need to tire my hands out by shuffling every turn from those illustrious fetchlands. I don't have to worry if my deck is sufficiently randomized, or if my opponent is stacking their deck.
TL;DR - It's personal faith that the company doesn't go under to be comfortable "leasing" the rights to play online.
In such an unlikely event that Wizards decides to "terminate" the game service:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic Online: User Agreement and Software License
If your Accounts are terminated it their entity due to Wizards' decision to cease offering the Game, you may participate in the Physical Redemption program provided you request redemption in accordance with Section 7 within twenty (20) days from the termination of the Game.
This applied to a majority of MTGO users as they play Standard and Limied.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
I understand what you're saying that we as consumers don't own the rights to the digital media.
That's subtly different from what I'm saying. Of course you don't own any copyrights. You also don't own the digital objects you're buying. That's what I'm talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
TL;DR - It's personal faith that the company doesn't go under to be comfortable "leasing" the rights to play online.
That's exactly my point. And online service providers shown they have no problem shutting down and tossing your leased game objects into the ether, without a moment's notice. Because of that, the prices should not be the same as actual physical cards which you DO OWN.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ankharlyn
That's exactly my point. And online service providers shown they have no problem shutting down and tossing your leased game objects into the ether, without a moment's notice. Because of that, the prices should not be the same as actual physical cards which you DO OWN.
They are not the same. It's been examined time after time after time: singles on MTGO are cheaper as a whole. If you're buying boosters from Wizards directly at MSRP (which they must sell at being the Manufacturer), then you are uninformed and foolish. Key to the argument that Legacy is sustainable online is the idea that Legacy is not a limited format. It does not require booster packs to play.
I understand you don't trust this thing called technology. That's fine, no one is forcing you to. But that doesn't make the "service" MTGO can provide "not real". It's very real, and is the future of MTG competitive environment. Perhaps not abusing the Terms of Service these game service providers provide would allow you to enjoy the content they deliver. Hacks/bots/exploits are not exercised by the plurality of online consumers.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
just google list canceled mmos. Heck, even MSN shut down, didn't it?
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Wow, the level of retard just went off the charts. Have fun watching your leased MTGO collection go POOF whenever WotC feels like it. Of course, no other internet content service has EVER shut down. OH WAIT, NO. SHITLOADS HAVE.
Meanwhile, people that are not retarded and understand that internet content services will not exist ad infinitum will be playing Magic, while you cry by yourself in a corner because WotC nuked your collection of leased card images.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ankharlyn
Wow, the level of retard just went off the charts. Have fun watching your leased MTGO collection go POOF whenever WotC feels like it. Of course, no other internet content service has EVER shut down. OH WAIT, NO. SHITLOADS HAVE.
Meanwhile, people that are not retarded and understand that internet content services will not exist ad infinitum will be playing Magic, while you cry by yourself in a corner because WotC nuked your collection of leased card images.
ankharlyn. I respect your risk aversion, but I fear this is bordering on fear mongering:
Below is a screenshot taken from my MTGO account agreement taken just moments ago:
http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9a0da20f.jpg
The second paragraph mentions that I could get a physical copy if MTGO ceases to exist on the account of Wizards. So in your doomsday scenario it looks like I could financially "gain." I use quotes because the sudden influx of cards would dilute paper prices as we know them today.
MTGO is a fine product, and Legacy is a great format. I hope if you don't choose to support it others do because it can have benefits for the formats health in general.
Re: Thread for going out on a limb
So you're saying I can go and buy a full Legacy set online, then sit back and pray for it to shut down because then they will owe me physical copies of all the cards I purchased?
