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I donīt think they unbanned thoose cards to ban them some months later,if they would ban belcher they would ban the only Overpowered Deck.i dont think long or Trix are that overpowered,espacially when aggro is a lot faster atm.Quote:
Originally Posted by GodzillA
Maybe it would be a healthy format just w/o the belcher?
It would be like LED Madness against 4FoF Control against fast Combo(prolly Trix).
just my 2 cents
Likelihood is the format will be reasonably healthy with the Belcher, because it's imminently hateable with Chalices and Null Rods. The thing is, the amount of available accelleration is going to mean that the format is going to primarily combo - ones which may be slightly slower but also much more difficult to hate than Belcher.
You know, it's creepy, but I can't think of a single thing I've seen you say since the announcement came out that I've disagreed with.Quote:
Originally Posted by GodzillA
I agree on this. I don't think that decks like Belcher and "Long" and Doomsday are broken per se; I've been playtesting against them all day, and half the time a single FoW or Stifle is enough to rape their eye sockets. Another good amount of games, they rape their own eye sockets, fizzling horribly or killing themselves. However, that's not to say that either a better build of these decks or a different combo deck won't be found that works much more reliably, and I think these three cards are ticking timebomb; sooner or later, it just seems like they're bound to destroy the format. In the meantime, they're encouaring a swarm of bad combo, which is bad because, while in small numbers bad combo is amusing, in large numbers you get what we call the "Lucky Frog Effect", where so many people show up with so many bad, janky, random-ass combo decks that the odds tilt and one of them ends up winning the tourney just through the sheer logistics. Even aside from that, these cards place way too much emphasis on early game swing, and going first, that it's safer just to cut them off. I don't think they really add anything to the format in terms of skill or fun or interesting decks; they just add more luck back to the format that's supposed to not be Type 1.
It seems to me that we got rid of a consistant and somewhat fast combo deck (dragon) and replaced it with a more explosive, less consistant, much more disruptable combo decks (Doomsday, Belcher, whatever else). Chalice destroys the combo enough, and Null Rod+Chalice means they cant win. I don't think we have much to fear from the combo, so maybe the fast mana acceleration isn't on its way out?
I definately think belcher will be a force when it is optimized. I have found the biggest problem thus far for my build is either
a) having starting mana. stuff like lotus petal, land grant, and esg. Two in hand is the best.
b) getting belcher in hand. Not much of a problem goldfishing, but fetching the 2nd or 3rd copies from the deck could present an issue against counters.
c) having the right color mana to cast things like welder/seething song(props to norm) AND rituals. getting the black and red mana can be tough.
I definately think the deck will be a force to be reckoned with, though.
Let's stay on topic please.
Peter_Rotten
ok, so i've golfished my own version, similar to those posted.
a)4gamble? its good when you're lucky. It's hard enough getting lucky with your first 7 cards. Random discarding sucks and its a 2 for 1 deal. Im probably cutting those.
b)I've tested serum powder and i like it a lot. I'm keeping 4 maindeck as of now
c)2 lands? i often run into a no cards in hand + belcher = only permanent and then i run into a random land. Note that my version only plays 1 bayou and still it is sometimes troublesome.
d)i kinda like seething song. Better than cabal ritual imo
e) i dont run nights whispers because i think they're not worth it. I'd rather have the serum powders and/or more mana accel and hope for THE hand than having to draw cards. You're losing a turn there most of the time.
f) haven't playtested the chromatic spheres but at first glance i think i won't like having to pay 2colorless for 1 colored. There has to be something else..
sorry if i sounded like i'm critisicing but its just my opinion. Just trying to give all the help i can. I'll post back when i get anything new.
I agree w/ Gamble, but I found nothing better for the slots. Powder is intresting, tried it in the T1 build and it sucked, but it might be better now.
Seething Song costs 3, that makes it pretty much inviable in my mind, I'll try it though.
2 Lands is vs. the inevitable control deck massive h8 people are bound to pack. With 2 people you have much better odds not dying to random shit. Of course you run into a land more often in exchange, it's a hard trade-off.
Chrome Sphere's fix the fact that the mana is piss poor at making the right colors.
artowis, have you modified your list any? I found the original one to not be that great, but that was often just because the xantid swarms were bad. I use duress because it can grab a null rod, xantid swarm can't.
Amazingly enough I have, again these are mostly thought tweaks and stuff from golldfishing. I've had no desire, past playing a few randoms on MWS, to really test the thing. :)
//NAME: Burning Heat - 3 Option Mix
// Mana
2 Eladamri's Vineyard
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Land Grant
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
// Land
1 Bayou
// Broken Stuff
2 Living Wish
3 Tainted Pact
4 Gamble
4 Spoils of the Vault
// Burn j00 out.
4 Goblin Charbelcher
// Protection
4 Goblin Welder
4 Duress
// SB
1 Hunted Wumpus
1 Elvish Lyrist
1 Uktabi Orang.
1 Gilded Drake
1 Scavenger Folk
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Gemstone Mine
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Oxidize
Right now all I've done is test out the Vineyards which seem to be really good, make a SB and I agree... in this format Duress is actually better than Xantid game 1. A scary thought, heh. Looking to replace Pact's possibly, but I'll ponder what... sometime later.
BTW, if your having problems getting the right mana, you may want to try out BoP. It was pretty good in T1 'budget' builds. =)
Edited By Artowis on 1094171732
I think LED is more likely to be banned, actually. Petal is only slightly more useful than ESG (and not at all in some circumstances), and Chrome and Diamond both have really harsh disadvantages.
LED, on the other hand, is more like to be the source that makes this deck tick. More often than not this is the card that activates the fatal belcher on turns 1-3, and they're not possible without it.
Your point? Or are you just posting for no reason?Quote:
I think LED is more likely to be banned, actually. Petal is only slightly more useful than ESG (and not at all in some circumstances), and Chrome and Diamond both have really harsh disadvantages.
LED, on the other hand, is more like to be the source that makes this deck tick. More often than not this is the card that activates the fatal belcher on turns 1-3, and they're not possible without it.
His point is that the deck is not likely to be nearly as strong without LED, and that they're likely to ban it. He's probably right.
What was the point of your post, Josh? :p
I think his point was to prove post 1 had no point, therefor viladating his point. Thus if post 1 had a point, his post had no point.
Aside from that, I think I know what cards need to go to make the moxen not insanely broken alogn with petal... but still give combo great speed and other things as well great power...
They are LED and Dark ritual.
actually, i found lotus petal to be one of the stronger accelerants in the deck, getting you any one of the three colors in the deck.
The deck may still be under development, but it's a safe bet it's going to be one of the strongest decks in the new format, and has the benefit of months' worth of testing and development in Vintage to work from. Moved back to Open Forum. -Zilla
Because LED being a key component is braindead obvious and if it'll be banned or not has no place here.Quote:
His point is that the deck is not likely to be nearly as strong without LED, and that they're likely to ban it. He's probably right.
What was the point of your post, Josh?
So I take it where gonna on for a long and awful combo winter like type 1?
no. I fully believe this deck is easily hateable, and thus will not be a huge concern. I don't think we will face a combo winter, not even close.
This deck will just be a worse Dragon, and that's about it.