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I agree that a guide isn't really possible. A discussion is more apt. Here's an opener, here's what different people thinks it means and here's why.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
This also gives people a chance to learn the why behind something and allow them to develop their own why, rather than something to learn by rote.
building a guide to this is fairly simple actually. I think that the approach might be as simple as what colors is my opponent showing, and what cards do I expect from those colors. Example, "my opponent played a swamp and passed" - its possible they have discard. Its possible they are ANT or reanimator, its unlikely they'll have a counter spell for my show and tell.
ANT wouldn't go "swamp, go". That's a play I'd expect from poxQuote:
Originally Posted by apple713
If my opponent went Swamp Pass, I'd put them on Pox or Nic Fit most likely. Nic Fit runs 2-3 basic swamp, and a lot of the time they don't want to blind therapy. Otherwise, I agree that it is also likely a pox player that has a bunch of creature removal since they didn't cast a discard spell T1.
Carsten Kotter wrote a nice piece about this some time ago.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-Openings.html
I hope this helps!
"Hope and Glory"Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
FoW, so that I might safely play Lotus Petal, Lotus Petal, Echoing Truth!Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Is it not possible for them to do so? Dont they run basics? Pretty sure their deck requires black mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Your responses indicate to me that i've been playing combo too much and that I ignore many of the fair decks in the format. Yes swamp pass is something id probably see more often from pox / mic fit. However due to their decreased appearance in large tournaments i assume ANT with a poor draw because ANT is more widely played. I feel a bad hand with a popular deck is more common than a sub par hand with 2 much less frequently played decks. Also, its safer to assume the deck is ant and play cautiously rather assume the deck is pox and then they ritual ritual ad nauseum when your tapped out holding a spell pierce. There is much more leeway with Nic Fit and Pox than there is with ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I do that with esper stoneblade a lot when Ive got only 1 basic in hand but want to play a turn 2 stoneforge. I could easily have FoW in hand. Also, in that case the distinction between ANT in reanimator is huge if it is a show and tell you want to resolve. Resolving one could just make you lose if your opponent has a hand of griselbrand or ashen rider.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
The problem with a guide on paper is it has to look something like this:
Opponent does swamp go, he could be playing:
Esper stoneblade
ANT
Pox
Reanimator
Doomsday
Tin fins
Nic Fit
Jund
Junk
Aluren
UB Tezzeret
BUG landstill
Dead Guy
Some others I am forgetting
It could be any of those decks. Yes some might be more popular in some areas, but that is one of those variables that your 6th sense needs to tune into. You can also eliminate some of the options if you pick up vibes on weather your opponent is the "want-to-be pro" type, a metagaming genius, or the kind of guy that always plays his pet deck. You can read into weather he is more Timmy/spike/johnny. What kind archtypes he would like (combo, control, aggro etc).
Example:
I sit down across from a roughly 5'9'' athletic built guy, looks to be in his mid 20s. Clean shaven, wearing hoodie, puts down a playmat from some non-legacy GP that happened a few years ago and is adorned with numerous SCG IQ, and LGS "top 8 pins" . I make small talk asking him where hes from and what other formats he plays, is legacy his favorite. Hes driven about 6 hours, he likes legacy alot, but he tends to play standard and limited the most these days(is clearly adapt at many formats, and falls into "want-to-be pro" type, probably cant focus entirely on legacy and therefor not a pet deck player, likely is playing a "good" deck that the pros recommend playing, and/or a deck that has been good for a long time and he knows well). He shuffles up his black sleeved deck but doesn't do so particularly efficiently or quickly (not a deck that cares about going to time). We make some more small talk, turns out we have a friend in common from the college he went to, where he is still going for a masters in physics (obviously a smart guy, and a pretty social guy, obviously good at the game, but to him making small talk and "having fun" is more important than showing a poker face the entire time and not letting any information out, puts him a bit more on the Timmy scale of things).
So in summery, just in the first 2 minutes of sitting down, if we are making assumptions here is what I would make:
- Hes good at magic, but no legacy expert per say.
- Hes probably playing a deck that has been a competitor for a long time, or a "good" deck the pros recommend.
- His deck isn't concerned with going to time.
- His deck is likely a bit more of a "timmy deck", it does big crazy fun things
- He might have a deck that rewards being really smart and good at math and stuff
Based on those assumptions I would say he is probably playing Elves. If it wasn't elves, Id guess UWR tempo, RUG tempo, show and tell or reanimotor. If I had a turn 1 cabal therapy on the play against this guy I would name deathrite shaman or brainstorm, depending on what kind of hand I had. If it was one that could beat elves, Id play it safe and name brainstorm. I would try to keep a hand with sweepers, lots or removal or edict type effects since they would be good against any of the decks I suspect he is playing.
This is just a rough example of the thought process I am talking about. A simple opening guide is not going to be helpful to anyone besides a newcomer to legacy.
I base my calls on what my opponent looks like.
Neck beard? Janky/Tier 3 decks
Well dressed? Combo/Control
Look-like-any-other-dude? Merfolks/Stoneblade/RUG
Then we notice a number of white hairs on his shins. This indicates he has a small dog. White. Hair length suggests a terrier.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Yup. Sherlock plays Magic.
Here's a quick guide for you peeps:
If it plays Delver of Secrets, it's RUG.
If it plays Dark Ritual it's Ad Nauseam Tendrils
If it plays artifact lands it's Affinity
If it plays Noble Hierarch it's Bant
If it plays Mother of Runes it's Maverick
If it plays Show and Tell it's Sneak Show
If it plays Griselbrand it's Reanimator
If it plays Counterbalance it's Mono Blue Control
If it plays Swords to Plowshares it's a miracle!
If it plays Hymn to Tourach it's Team America
If it plays Deathrite Shaman it's Elves
If it plays plains it's Death and Taxes
If it plays Stoneforge Mystic it's Blade Control
If it plays Lightning Bolt it's UWR Delver
If it plays Goblin Guide it's Burn
If it plays Tarmogoyf it's Shardless BUG
If it plays Ad Nauseam it's T.E.S.
If it plays Cabal Therapy it's Nic Fit
If it plays Thoughtseize it's Pox
If it plays AEther Vial it's Merfolk
If it plays SDT it's Turbo Eldrazi
If it plays Chrome Mox it's Imperial Painter
If it plays High Tide, your guess is as good as mine, there's no knowing what this opponent is playing
You're welcome, this guide has been brought to you by SCG Legacy commentators. ;)
The last comment just want to make me necro the SCG Commentator Ranting Thread...
Well, I have to say that the commentators are doing just fine. The format takes a of time to know and from time to time it's really hard to talk 50 minutes non-stop when nothing is really happening. I myself cast some games and it takes a lot of effort to have something useful to say so I'm pretty forgiving about some of the stuff. It would still be very interesting to have some real legacy expert in the studio - would be interesting to hear what he thinks. It's fun to make fun of the silly conclusions they come up with sometimes, but I think it's part of the show.
Besides, they have one of the hardest clientele in the world I would imagine. :wink: