[Deck] Turbo Depths

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Originally Posted by TLK

Well any deck can run Surgical. Extirpate is definitely more niche, which is good since we can't really do anything about it. All a deck has to do is Waste Depths or Swords our token after we make one then Surgical us out of the game. Slaughter Games is game over as well but hopefully we win by turn 4, as Jund is typically the only deck running that in the board, and we have access to discard.

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after looking at the numbers an overwhelming 21.3% of decks have it in their sideboard, with an average of 2 being run. Accordingly i have adjusted the numbers to reflect it as an appropriate threat.

how would you use the data I gathered?



This suggestion might be off the walls, but meddling mage might be worth a look. Naming swords it gets the primary removal spell we are concerned with and abrupt decay for when opponent hits our pithing needles. Furthermore, it is proactive against combo decks and fast enough to be considered.

Also considering abrupt decay just because it is uncounterable, and serves almost the same purpose as pyroblast. Doesn't hit shot and tell / omni decks but hits many targets REB doesn't.

I would probably start by assessing which cards are most effective against us, then using your data to see how represented those cards are. For instance, Swords to Plowshares is public enemy #1, but, hypothetically speaking, if nobody was playing it, I wouldn't worry about it. Make sense?

edit I've definitely thought about Meddling Mage, but given the current manabase, hitting blue/white would mean we need 2 City of Brass/Gemstone out of only 6 available. Granted, we would search them up, but it seems we'd rather be searching for combo pieces.

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Originally Posted by TLK

I would probably start by assessing which cards are most effective against us, then using your data to see how represented those cards are. For instance, Swords to Plowshares is public enemy #1, but, hypothetically speaking, if nobody was playing it, I wouldn't worry about it. Make sense?

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well ya but logically, cards like not of this world should be included because it stops swords to plowshares, Karakas, all bounce spells, venser, flicker wisp, maze. We have decided though because it ends up being a dead card in many cases and doesn't contribute to the overall consistency it shouldn't be included. Maybe thats incorrect reasoning?


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discard vs counterspells: basically 1 is proactive and the other is reactive. while discard allows them to draw into threats, counterspells require us to keep mana open the turn we are making the token.

cards that could help are spells that grant protection, hex proof, or shroud. ideally they will also be able to do something else other than just that or else we might as well just use not of this world.

No, I think that's still OK. I was just trying to get us a starting point. Using your example, a card (Not of This World) was found and tested, and proved to be not all that great. Analyzing where our problems lie, and how represented they are, enables us to come up with options to battle these things. It just turns out that Not of This World wasn't one of them. This is a good way to find new tools, though, in my opinion.

edit That's accurate. I haven't tested w/Not of This World, so I'm taking the consensus' word for it. I think it trumps cards like Vines of Vastwood, though, since it's free. Vines protects Hexmage if we need to drop it before we draw Depths, but I don't think that's really concerning.

also considering but such limited application. maybe spells kite has the most merit because he can block.

apostle's blessing
spellskite
dispel

Blessing can at least protect Pithing Needle, but still might be a little too conditional. Spellskite requires you to have it in play before you make the token, which could slow down our deck by a turn in certain situations. Dispel would be OK as a replacement for the Blasts if we ran blue instead of red.

i feel like discard is better than red blasts

drop of honey seems like a cheap way to buy a couple of turns

hull breach also seems interesting because under a moon effect you will have red, and you will already need green for a reclamation sage but it allows you to get additional value.

Drop of Honey is interesting. Yes, it does buy us turns against decks only dropping a threat/turn, but I think in the first few turns of the game we want to be setting up our combo (Map, Scrying, Library) or being disruptive in terms of cards that hurt us (discard effects to take their answers to token, Pithing Needle on Wasteland/Karakas/etc.). I could see Drop of Honey being a decent sideboard card if it wasn't for our cheap mass removal. Plus, we have Maze to buy us turns against decks only dropping a single threat.

As for Hull Breach, of the decks that run Blood Moon, how many also run problematic artifacts? Some Miracles decks might run Blood Moon, so we could two-for-one Blood Moon/Counterbalance and force a Top activation. Any others? It's a nice option, though, since we're already running artifact/enchantment destruction in our board.

edit I had a good suggestion as I was typing the above response, but now I have forgotten it. :/

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Originally Posted by TLK

Drop of Honey is interesting. Yes, it does buy us turns against decks only dropping a threat/turn, but I think in the first few turns of the game we want to be setting up our combo (Map, Scrying, Library) or being disruptive in terms of cards that hurt us (discard effects to take their answers to token, Pithing Needle on Wasteland/Karakas/etc.). I could see Drop of Honey being a decent sideboard card if it wasn't for our cheap mass removal. Plus, we have Maze to buy us turns against decks only dropping a single threat.

As for Hull Breach, of the decks that run Blood Moon, how many also run problematic artifacts? Some Miracles decks might run Blood Moon, so we could two-for-one Blood Moon/Counterbalance and force a Top activation. Any others? It's a nice option, though, since we're already running artifact/enchantment destruction in our board.

edit I had a good suggestion as I was typing the above response, but now I have forgotten it. :/

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@ hull breach - really only painter. i guess it just sucks that we have so many slots in our sideboard dedicated to art/enchantment removal.

@ drop - i was thinking that it is likely to be a t3 play that way the opponent would have 2 creatures on the board, and either stop casting creatures till drop died, or keep playing creatures to race it. What i was thinking is that if they try and race it, it might slow em down enough. If they wait it out, surly it will have slowed them down.

if we have 1 maze of ith out it becomes so much more powerful against a board of 3 creatures.

I has other applications as well. against S&T, it can kill an emrakul and griselbrand. Against reanimatior, iona will probably never name green. The ability does not target, so it hits things like TNN as well.

That's true. The ability only triggers during our upkeep, though, so it doesn't stop a Sneak Attack (although Needle on Sneak Attack will). I think you raise a good point and it's definitely worth testing. My main point was that we have other sideboard options (Pyroclasm/Bomb/Deluge) to wipe out opposing threats. Drop is cheap, though, and is a recurring effect until the board is wiped. I agree that we have a lot of sideboard slots dedicated to artifact/enchant removal. I've also considered making room for a Grafdigger's Cage or some other form of graveyard hate on top of Bog. If we could fit the Containment Priest somehow, that would solve the S&T issue as well.

nice catch on containment priest

could containment priest eliminate any of our sideboard cards?

Sneak n Show:
- Show and Tell
- Sneak Attack

Dredge:
- Ichorid
- Narcomoeba
- Nether Shadow
- Dread Return

Reanimator:
- Reanimate
- Exhume
- Show and Tell
- Animate Dead

Elves:
- Green Sun's Zenith
- Natural Order

Vial Decks (Goblins, Death N Taxes):
- AEther Vial

Nic Fit:
- Chord of Calling (not played much but still)
- Birthing Pod (again, not seen often but in a handful of Nic Fit decks)


Goblin Welder grabbing creatures
Transmute Artifact grabbing creatures
Goblin Lackey
kuldotha forgemaster

Yes, I think that was the card I was thinking of when I said I had a good idea above. Suggesting Grafdigger's Cage made me remember. It shuts down A LOT of stuff. That said, I'm not sure it could necessarily replace anything, but I think it's worth finding room for as a catch-all. Maybe it could replace the extra discard effects?

Great idea to create a brand new thread for this marvellous deck. Good job apple!

What do you find so problematic about Sneak'n'Show matchup? My biggest concern is about T1 fatty or Blood Moon. But nuts is a nuts and our T1 discard into T2 token is also very difficult to beat for pretty much everything. With discard, pyroblasts and the inevitability of Marit Lage I kinda like the matchup. I also run SB Karakas to fight through Emrakul/Griselbrand. Karakas + Krosan Grip blanks even Sneak Attack.

I will try singleton Not of this World in the sideboard against 12post, Karakas, Flickerwisps (storm plays 2 SB!), etc. as a complement to a discard. I've lost to Karakas way too often.

@Red - With the 80+% of the decks running blue keeping red blasts main seems good enough to me. I like aggressively going for their first cantrip as these decks tend to keep mediocre hands with BS as a fix. And Pyroclasms and Ancient Grudges are gold now.

@Surgical Extraction - I am scared of this card. The strongest combination is with Hymn to Tourach. Luckily for us Treasure Cruise seems to push Hymn to Tourach out of the format. Otherwise we can play discard before going for combo or putting our Dark Depths into play against Wasteland decks. I met Surgical Extraction few times during the tournament in Prague and I've either discarded it or I had a token in play and my opponent didn't have an answer to it. So whenever I feel our opponent might play it, I try to keep main as much discard as possible.

@Containment Priest - do we really need her? Someone in the previous thread said the Elves is good matchup anyway. Dredge also seems beatable with Dark Depths. Reanimator is kinda tricky and Priest/Cage would help here a lot. As well as Karakas. But I expect lot of decks running this card to mitigate the amount of Reanimators running around. Manabase won't support effectively casting Priest on time. We would have to swap Copperline Gorge for WG fast lands and swap red for white.


To adrieng - I know you once wrote you've playtested blue splash. How was it?

I can get on board with most everything you said. Not sure about the S&T matchup, but with Grip/Needle/Karakas/discard it shouldn't be an issue. The Priest has game against a lot of decks, but we may already have those decks covered, and as you said it might not be worth dropping red for.

Ps your sweater in the Prague videos is awesome haha

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Originally Posted by Lio

Great idea to create a brand new thread for this marvellous deck. Good job apple!

What do you find so problematic about Sneak'n'Show matchup? My biggest concern is about T1 fatty or Blood Moon. But nuts is a nuts and our T1 discard into T2 token is also very difficult to beat for pretty much everything. With discard, pyroblasts and the inevitability of Marit Lage I kinda like the matchup. I also run SB Karakas to fight through Emrakul/Griselbrand. Karakas + Krosan Grip blanks even Sneak Attack.

I will try singleton Not of this World in the sideboard against 12post, Karakas, Flickerwisps (storm plays 2 SB!), etc. as a complement to a discard. I've lost to Karakas way too often.

@Red - With the 80+% of the decks running blue keeping red blasts main seems good enough to me. I like aggressively going for their first cantrip as these decks tend to keep mediocre hands with BS as a fix. And Pyroclasms and Ancient Grudges are gold now.

@Surgical Extraction - I am scared of this card. The strongest combination is with Hymn to Tourach. Luckily for us Treasure Cruise seems to push Hymn to Tourach out of the format. Otherwise we can play discard before going for combo or putting our Dark Depths into play against Wasteland decks. I met Surgical Extraction few times during the tournament in Prague and I've either discarded it or I had a token in play and my opponent didn't have an answer to it. So whenever I feel our opponent might play it, I try to keep main as much discard as possible.

@Containment Priest - do we really need her? Someone in the previous thread said the Elves is good matchup anyway. Dredge also seems beatable with Dark Depths. Reanimator is kinda tricky and Priest/Cage would help here a lot. As well as Karakas. But I expect lot of decks running this card to mitigate the amount of Reanimators running around. Manabase won't support effectively casting Priest on time. We would have to swap Copperline Gorge for WG fast lands and swap red for white.


To adrieng - I know you once wrote you've playtested blue splash. How was it?

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well when i was testing adrieng's list it doesn't have karakas anywhere in the 75 which may be a mistake. G1 karakas makes S&T worthless and needle thwarts sneak attack. G2-3 you have to worry about blood moon but its not terrible because of reclamation sage. Maybe Karakas is necessary in main vs S&T and reanimator.

REB - even though it has lots of targets, it doesn't actually improve our consistency as a tutor or protect our token. Against combo decks its only effective against S&T (including omni) and high tide (do ppl still play that?). Yeah i guess against 12 post it hits bounce spells but if we are using it to combat bounce spells, maybe we should just run more discard?

Blue splash seems awkward. The first card that comes to mind is spell pierce but its conditional if they have 2 mana open. this isn't optimal when you have to rely on it to counter a stp. if opponent sees it game 1 they'll just make sure they have mana open for game 2.

lets take a closer look at dispel. This card is something i could possibly favor over REB.

Swords to Plowshares
Surgical Extraction
Submerge
Stifle

Echoing Truth
Chain of Vapor
Diabolic Edict
Path to Exile
Fire // Ice
Wipe Away
Repeal
Rushing River
Vapor Snag

Outside of the cards that are problematic for us it also gets

brainstorm
lightning bolt
price of progress
fireblast
ad nauseum
dark ritual
crop rotation
force of will
spell pierce
entomb

other than creatures, dispel hits more targets, that are seemingly more important. If only swan song gave a non flying token, that would be ideal...hitting blood moon and sneak attack too.


Even If you ran all blue cards in the 9 flex spots and switched out the sylvan scryings for brainstorms or ponders, you still couldn't run force of will.

You would have to take out the sylvan libraries and sylvan scrying in addition to the 9 flex spot to have at least 16 blue cards and even then its a little low. You would likely end up with 4 FOW, 4 brainstorms, 3 ponder, 4 dispel, 1 spell pierce. seems clunky especially since you might find yourself without blue card for FOW occasionally. Not to mention that many of the cards that come out in sideboards would be the blue ones we have replaced discard spells with.

Running blue significantly improves the combo matchup tho if we can commit to it. You could even consider running swan song against combo decks because its unlikely they'll have an answer to the token once its made.

Blue could be worth testing. I don't think brainstorm / ponder are as good as sylvan library / sylvan scrying, but maybe... you could argue that you could take out expedition map because you have counterspells for blood moons but at this point we're changing a lot of the core of the deck and reconstructing something. I'm not opposed but now you have to take a lot of factors into consideration. Brainstorm isn't great without fetch lands. Even with fetch lands combo decks durdle hoping to find what they need. Sylvan scrying / expedition map are so much better at getting us exactly what we want.

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Originally Posted by apple713

Blue could be worth testing. I don't think brainstorm / ponder are as good as sylvan library / sylvan scrying, but maybe... you could argue that you could take out expedition map because you have counterspells for blood moons but at this point we're changing a lot of the core of the deck and reconstructing something. I'm not opposed but now you have to take a lot of factors into consideration. Brainstorm isn't great without fetch lands. Even with fetch lands combo decks durdle hoping to find what they need. Sylvan scrying / expedition map are so much better at getting us exactly what we want.

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If looking into Blue, I suggest taking a look at 'Farmville'

http://archive.wizards.com/magic/mag...gppar14/day2#7

It's pretty fun to play (if I may believe Kasper, who I know from my meta here)

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Originally Posted by Chatto

If looking into Blue, I suggest taking a look at 'Farmville'

http://archive.wizards.com/magic/mag...gppar14/day2#7

It's pretty fun to play (if I may believe Kasper, who I know from my meta here)

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i shuffled it up a few times and it felt very clunky. idk how to describe it, maybe i was too quick to judge.

theoretically it has everything but it gets destroyed by wasteland. relying on loam isn't great in this meta. 50% of the decks run wasteland and thats just too high not to have a main deck answer to something that is gonna wreck you 50% of the time. Intuition is great but with DRS in the other 50% of the meta intuition becomes subpar... maybe running wishes alleviates that concern.

what did u think when u played it? Compare it to the other versions you have played.

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To adrieng - I know you once wrote you've playtested blue splash. How was it?

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Yeah I tested a 8 cantrip deck list and it was worse, slower the manabase was worse ; but you could find your library/needle more easily.
Everything tempoish was worse.

Though the deck right now is very good positioned red blas/pyroblast is very good it kills delver stopping their clock counters fow/show and tell kills jace and so on (bounces etc..).
Delver matchups wouldn't be so good without them.
It can act as a double backup by example when you crop for sejiri you can reb their counters.

There is one other way to play around terminus it is too grudge their top EOT before making the token, so that they have to draw.

Red splash is awesome reb grudge and pyroclasme are all needed in this deck.

I am not too worried about the sneak show matchup we have needle for sneak attack, vampire+dark depth where they need to chumpblock the token through show and tell and 6-7 discard+3 reb.

We are one of the deck which has the more hate really. After side we only fear blood moon and through the breach.

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Originally Posted by apple713

i shuffled it up a few times and it felt very clunky. idk how to describe it, maybe i was too quick to judge.

theoretically it has everything but it gets destroyed by wasteland. relying on loam isn't great in this meta. 50% of the decks run wasteland and thats just too high not to have a main deck answer to something that is gonna wreck you 50% of the time. Intuition is great but with DRS in the other 50% of the meta intuition becomes subpar... maybe running wishes alleviates that concern.

what did u think when u played it? Compare it to the other versions you have played.

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Well, I proxied it, but I never felt completly comfortable with the list. Just like you stated, it feels heavely GY-dependend. That, and the use of LW (while giving some protection) makes this deck slow IMHO

And don't forget: Blood Moon Effects are the Bomb right now!

Ok some little change on the side in side out you can make apple :
I don't think there is one way to side which is strictly better than an other depedns when you draw your hate ; whether you are on the play on
the draw if you expect surgical or others hate.
Once I was wondering whether playing one creeping tar in side to fight surgical decks you can copy them with stage.
So in the Rug delver matchup you can bring BOTH bomb and pyroclasme (mosty if they play YP in some versions but still ok as one off other way)
Same thing for Bug delver/esper I often enter one or two pyroclasme.
In the death and taxes matchup I bring all three sage might cut one kozilek for that, cause these games are often slow.
I think I might keep the tabernacle here.
For show and tell you can cut the tabernacle.
In the ANT matchup I cut all four needles. Library are better here I keep all four.
In the painter matchup keeping at least 3-4 map they fetch basic forest with colorless mana.
I cut some kozilek for them.

In the miracle matchup I bring all three sage. You can cut one maze for that. You should keep one maze though but not two. You should cut the tabernacle here.