Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
So it's quite 1 card combo, but require really a lot of factors to go off. Probably the biggest difference to all Lab Man piles - it's pass the turn pile, which mean opponent can attack one of your conditions, 2 zones are the most risky - graveyard and hand both are quite common to hate, almost any deck have some kind of graveyard hate (surgical is critical) on SB. Discard is running by almost all black decks (it's basic disruption from this color), second think also Vendilion clique is a big thread.
I can see that control shell would be only reasonable with Intuition as tutor since it can feed all three zones (gy, hand, gy -> exile is probably the easiest), on the other hand exiling Aligment to FoW would mean you can't Intuition for it (without any way to bring back it).
Second option would be U/G shell with a lot of tutors and recursion cards like Regrowth or E.Witness, but from my point of view it will be very very slow and clunky.
I don't see advantages with Aligment over Lab Man in Doomsday, sure it's batter vs Decay (which can be outplayed like all removal), but it's worst vs GY hate and discard and which is the most important gives whole turn for opponent to react.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
I'd definitely consider going UGr, as you get the ability to 'reset' your Alignments with Research // Development, in case of RiP. Black is a viable second/third color, for Entomb and Exile effects.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darkenslight
I'd definitely consider going UGr, as you get the ability to 'reset' your Alignments with
Research // Development, in case of RiP.
Research doesn't work with exiled cards, they have to be in your sideboard.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
How about Manipulate Fate?
I also would like to have access to Pull from Eternity in case anything bad happened and too many copies get exiled, although you'll need to figure out how to get it into play or into your hand from the graveyard then.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
Manipulate Fate, Pull from Eternity, Entomb, noxious revival are all cards that dont do anything... like the alignment! Idk I just see 4 FoW some Intuition and a bunch of useless cards!
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HdH_Cthulhu
Manipulate Fate, Pull from Eternity, Entomb, noxious revival are all cards that dont do anything... like the alignment! Idk I just see 4 FoW some Intuition and a bunch of useless cards!
That is why you fail.
In all seriousness, naturally there is The Danger of Cool Things to consider. But bringing these options to light is fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
...Regrowth is strictly better than Recall or Shrouded Lore...
This actually is not true. Recall is terribad, but (in addition to acting as a Regrowth) if you are holding three copies of Alignment or for any reason need to get one from hand to graveyard, Recall can do that too.
I think that any version of this deck is going to expose a copy of Hedron Alignment on the battlefield for a turn. I think I am OK with that, as it is fairly well protected, especially in game 1. But I think we all have to know if there is currently a version of Doomsday that has a better wincon than this. We can stop considering Doomsday as a card if that is so. If not, I am sorta interested in it as a route to victory, as it is nearly a single card combo. But it does take either a shitload of mana or two main phases plus an upkeep to win while the Intuition version needs only a single main phase followed by an upkeep. Finally, the Careful Study version (for Doomsday) and the Predict version are considerably different. You can't just interchange those cards.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
I think that any version of this deck is going to expose a copy of Hedron Alignment on the battlefield for a turn. I think I am OK with that, as it is fairly well protected, especially in game 1. But I think we all have to know if there is currently a version of Doomsday that has a better wincon than this. We can stop considering Doomsday as a card if that is so. If not, I am sorta interested in it as a route to victory, as it is nearly a single card combo. .
Lets just take the current state of the art DDFT lists:
Business:
4 Burning Wish
3 Doomsday
1 Laboratory Maniac
Protection
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
Cantrips
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ideas Unbound
1 Chromatic Sphere
Accel
4 Dark Ritual
1 Rain of Filth
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
If we look just at the maindeck, there are two ways to win.
1. Storming for lethal Tendrils
2. The LabMan Kill (which is pretty save because of the Sphere)
The deck has the possibilities to win out of the weirdest situations.
A basic pile with Top in play and Probe in hand does not require any additional mana, after resolving Doomsday.
The most used LabMan Pile requires 1UU + Draweffect after Doomsday if i remember correctly. (Already a few years ago, since i played the deck.)
So for my point, i don't see any advantages of playing Hedron Archive with Doomsday instead of the classic DDFT Versions. (Maybe the lower learning curve).
But I think you are on something here with the Intuition Version Finn. And I will gladly tryy to contribute to it
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/...20140306133505
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jay_Gatz
What about chrome mox as an exile enabler and ramper?
Chrome mox is bad, multiples is bad, mulligan + chrome mox is bad.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
ATM I'm fooling around with something like this:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
5 Island
1 Swamp
4 Hedron Alignment
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Intuition
4 Lim-Dûl's Vault
2 Murderous Cut
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
2 Flusterstorm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
The list is currently 58 cards cuz i cut the 2 Flash of Insights (were underperforming). The body was taken from an ETI Combo Deck. (Thanks Emidln. All the credits is due to you).
From my point of view the biggest issues are:
1. Keep the Alignment in the graveyard
2. Battle discard
Currently I'm checking other combo decks to find a good solution for both. Leyline of Sanctity comes to mind
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
I think that any version of this deck is going to expose a copy of Hedron Alignment on the battlefield for a turn. I think I am OK with that, as it is fairly well protected, especially in game 1. But I think we all have to know if there is currently a version of Doomsday that has a better wincon than this.
yes, there is. Labman, BW>ToA are way better, SI/Emrakul is also arguably better. And given their compacity, efficiency and the need to pass the turn for the hedrons, I don't think hedron will ever be a way to improve current doomsday builds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
We can stop considering Doomsday as a card if that is so.
Here I disagree, because intuition and DD do not have to be mutually exclusive. At such an early stage of brainstorming, stopping to consider a card which do so much things (and can also bring alternate wincon in 1 card) may be a mistake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
Finally, the Careful Study version (for Doomsday) and the Predict version are considerably different. You can't just interchange those cards.
No, they are similar (they allow to put cards in the grave, and are draw 2 effects), and both can lead you to victory under different requirements. And if it was possible to interchange them, you would play only one copy of one of them. Both are under average cantrips but playable outside of the combo. The main difference is when you have to use a LED, careful is useless. Domsday aims at running some singletons that can answer really different situations, as it can fetch and combine them.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
Happy to join this thread. Thought I'd just repost my idea for a Restore Balance control version for this card:
4 ardent plea
4 hedron alignment
4 intuition
4 leyline of sanctity
4 leyline of the void
3 helm of obedience
3 propaganda
3 starfield of nyx
2 restore balance
4 rite of undoing
2 leyline of anticipation
20-24 lands/posts
Not sure if this as at all viable, but it's another way to tackle Hedron Alignment's viability is a wincon. Helm combo can always be grabbed with inuition, or starfield beats. Sol lands/serra's sanctum might be needed.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Nobodys
You need Thassa, God of the Sea here. She was an all-star when I was testing Post-based Restore Balance in Modern. Possibly better than Starfield (or supplementary to). Also Thopter Spy Network could do some work as part of a transformational sideboard.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrsthethird
You need
Thassa, God of the Sea here. She was an all-star when I was testing Post-based Restore Balance in Modern. Possibly better than Starfield (or supplementary to). Also
Thopter Spy Network could do some work as part of a transformational sideboard.
The core problem is that Ardent Plea doesn't get Hedron Alignment. You need Bloodbraid to fetch that out.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darkenslight
The core problem is that Ardent Plea doesn't get Hedron Alignment. You need Bloodbraid to fetch that out.
No, the idea is to cascade into Restore Balance for board control. Nobody wants to BBE into Fieldmist Borderpost either.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrsthethird
In which case, feel free to smack me upside the head. :tongue: I missed that interaction on first parse.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
Would a Gemstone Caverns be of any use here, even as a one-of?
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
I'm just mentioning Zur the Enchanter for its ability to singlehandedly give you access to all 4 copies. I'm also mentioning Battle of Wits because a deck like this actually benefits from a BoW setup (Less chance to draw dead Hedron alignments, though still has the ability to tutor them all up). Lastly, a mention for Wild Research for giving access to all four copies and satisfy 3 of 4 conditions on its own.
I know they are not competitive level cards, but neither Hedron Alignment :-)
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
This actually is not true.
Recall is terribad, but (in addition to acting as a Regrowth) if you are holding three copies of Alignment or for any reason need to get one from hand to graveyard, Recall can do that too.
You're right about that, but I'm still not sure that Recall is preferable to a more general loot effect (even something like Desolate Lighthouse) when it comes to discarding extra Alignments.
I do think that the best way to deploy Hedron Alignmemt as a win condition is in a Ux control deck. A Splinter Twin deck Top 8'ed a PIQ in December and a Legacy version of that sort of combo-control deck offers a lot of the same benefits it does in Modern, and Alignment takes fewer slots and is harder to disrupt than the Twin combo.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
You could use infernal tutor. If you have intuition + tutor or intuition + hedron, then all you need to do is exile one from your graveyard. It's also a half-decent card on its own, and it could fit into a lion's-eye diamond + doomsday shell.
Re: [DECK] Hedron Alignment Combo
@Malchar, you say Infernal Tutor + Intuition works, but I don't see how to make this happen either with or without Lion's Eye Diamond. If there is a way and I am just not seeing it, please tell me how - because that is very helpful if it works. If it can not work until you are already holding a copy of Hedron Alignment, Infernal Tutor is just north of useless, and would certainly not make the cut. I almost hope that it turns out to be unusable simply because you can't have Force of Will in the same deck.
************
@Climax, Thanks for the feedback. Flash of Insight is an infuriating card. It is nearly good enough to be our exiling mechanic and it is nearly good enough to be a search mechanic. It is not actually good enough to be reliable at either. What we really need is a way to get it into the graveyard without casting it first. Then it may be able to prove itself. Yes, Intuition can do this, but the deck does not want it to. I fear that in order to make this switch, the deck would need to be reworked considerably (Careful Study, probably Entomb, and some of those distasteful methods of regrowing cards).
Honestly, I have been ok with leaning hard on Lim-Dul's vault to make the combo work. I can often get my house in order by turn four for a turn five win. But we really either need a stronger control element or the combo needs to speed up to a turn 2-3 win. Right now I am getting mostly turn 4.
Some thoughts on that:
1. I am annoyed at how often I can not win on my upkeep after Hedron Alignment hits the battlefield. I either feel that I am best served spending the mana on turn three to cast it, even without Intuition in my hand or I do not have a free free option to exile the extra copy in the graveyard during my fourth upkeep. That is one problem that MAY be solved simply with me improving my skill with the deck. Not sure about that atm.
2a. I figure we can mess with the deck enough to get a more aggressive mana supply enough to shave nearly a turn off of the win.
2b. If these two issues can be resolved, and Force of Will remains in the deck, this should make the deck competitive.
2c. I am in favor of the improved mana supply - as opposed to going full-on into control - simply because I think that the fast mana in Legacy is stronger than the cheap defense available in these colors. I would actually really like to here what Brant Cook or emidln or one of the other long-time combo guys has to say on this subject. I actually tried the controlish method in Four Horsemen, and I was never completely satisfied with it. And that deck was better suited for it than this one is for sure since it was slower to go off and [cards]Cabal Therapy[cards] was superb in that deck with Narcomoebas that were just perfect to sacrifice.
3. I figured in my statements of the spoiler thread that exiling the extra copy would be a snap considering all of the fine tools we had for the task. Boy was I short sighted. You basically do not want Murderous Cut for the job since you would be using it before going off on something like Thalia or Meddling Mage or whatever prevents you from winning. There are a lot of scenarios that mean you can not be casting it on your highly-stack-sensitive upkeep and expect a decent opponent to just let that happen. And besides, the one mana is a big deal. The Faerie works better - and gets around Canonist nicely, but is only good for that one job, really. What I think we need are Dark Rituals to assist the Lotus Petals.
More on this later.
Thoughts?
