Incoming Phasing Rules Change (with C17)

Read @Richard Cheese's post, phasing used to change zones. With current wording, we execute the old zone change so perfectly that we don't need to have a zone for it anymore because the rules tell us exactly how to do it without telling us what it is we're doing. When talking about phasing we have to be on the same page - no rules update has ever changed how phasing actually works, we silently omitted the term "phasing zone" by forcing permanents to act like they made an actual zone change with very specialized wording to describe the phenomenon of going from Zone A to Zone A (without saying anything about Zone A, but instead calling it a status effect).

Maybe an easier example is Chimeric Idol - if it is animated to a 3/3 and then phased-out, it is now a non-Creature Artifact. Now Time and Tide can't bring it back (it's not a creature when phased-out. No really, call a judge, you need to). If however Time and Tide instructed us to bring back non-Creature Artifacts that same turn, then Chimeric Idol would phase in as a 3/3 Artifact Creature. That's a smoking gun; a zone change (or something mechanically identical) just happened between that card being phased-in and phased-out.

Not knowing that interaction won't actually keep you from being able to play and understand magic. Not seeing the evidence and not conceptualizing the "battlefield zone" actually being two half-zones is totally fine, but when we say "it's ok, tokens don't have to exile due to phasing out" all that you are doing is poking holes in that rules wall that keeps the phased-out part of the battlefield from being something that can affect you. No one wants the phased-out battlefield to become active. All the mechanics say it's there, all you have to do look at the signs. Chimeric can't make itself a creature, phase-out into a noncreature, and [if it were possible to phase back in on that same turn without card type creature] come back as the same 3/3 creature - that's the same object exhibiting vastly different characteristics unbidden when in the same zone, something profound happened: we ran the card right through a zone boundary, and we didn't even know it!

It is easier to teach magic when we don't have to tell a player "this is the battlefield, it has a phased-in and phased-out part." That's why we have all these nutty rules that make phasing work like a zone boundary crossing, and why we can stop talking about the phasing zone and pretend everything is fine, it's just a simple status effect like tapping and untapping. We honor all the rules of a trip to the phasing zone even today - but that will stop once tokens pick up a random rule. This change is the first step in degrading the whole rules contraption that allowed people to go around thinking the battlefield is just the phased-in part and phasing is a simple status effect.

If the phasing zone is gone, why are we doing everything it told us to do when it was around? The answer is semantics, we just want to be able to clearly say stuff like rule 702.25d. When we do that it means that we don't have to educate people about a zone they'll never need to know, but the functionality of zone change is still all there though; this never changed mechanically speaking. Go find that judge and ask them what the animated Chimeric Idol or Memnarch'd March of the Machines are when they phase-out; you have to know that answer to understand how silly it is to see a card run so clearly through a zone boundary and claim nothing zone change'y has happened.

To conceptualize the problem: if that Chimeric Idol remained a 3/3 Artifact Creature in phased-out status, we are basically saying anything that it pulled into an indirect phase would also keep modifying it. If it ever gets to that point you have phased-out cards acknowledging the existence of phased-out cards - that's an entire second battlefield. It would totally destroy any mechanical way for us to keep talking about phasing as a status effect; we just went straight to everyone needing to know that the battlefield zone is comprised of two half-zones across all formats, to almost everyone's mutual detriment. No longer would we get to write a rule that says "there's no zone change, just do all the zone change'y things if you do this (as if the zone still exists)."

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Originally Posted by Fox

Maybe an easier example is Chimeric Idol - if it is animated to a 3/3 and then phased-out, it is now a non-Creature Artifact. Now Time and Tide can't bring it back

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I'm pretty sure you are just objectively wrong here?

702.25e Continuous effects that affect a phased-out permanent may expire while that permanent is phased out. If so, they will no longer affect that permanent once it’s phased in. In particular, effects with “for as long as” durations that track that permanent (see rule 611.2b) end when that permanent phases out because they can no longer see it.


The rule doesn't stipulate that continuous effects that affect a phased out permanent DO expire while the permanent is phased out, only that they may, as per their specified duration.
So if you animated idol and then phased it out (both in your precombat main for example) Time and Tide would phase it in if you played it during your turn but not if you played it in your opponents turn.
The supposed slippery slope this leads to in the final paragraph doesn't even make sense.

Tokens aren't "picking up a random rule", they're deleting the 'random rule' that already exists only exists for tokens. It helps support the idea that phasing is a status change.
Imagine you are teaching a new player the game:
"When my token gets unsummoned, does it go into my hand?"
"No, tokens aren't cards, they can only exist on the battlefield, if they get sent to any other zone they just disappear"
[later, on phasing]
"So when my Elvish Visionary phases in, I get to draw a card?"
"No, phasing isn't a zone change, the Elf was on the battlefield all the time, so it didn't 'enter the battlefield', just when it phases out we treat it as not existing"
"Hmmm, so I guess I can safely phase out my own token then, because tokens only disappear when they move to another zone, and when you phase out a creature it stays on the battlefield the whole time?"
"Ah no, a token also disappears when you phase it out, this is an additional special rule just for phasing"

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

I'm pretty sure you are just objectively wrong here?

702.25e Continuous effects that affect a phased-out permanent may expire while that permanent is phased out. If so, they will no longer affect that permanent once it’s phased in. In particular, effects with “for as long as” durations that track that permanent (see rule 611.2b) end when that permanent phases out because they can no longer see it.

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The translation of 702.25e: if a Chimeric Idol makes itself a 3/3 until end of turn, this effect knows to stop at the end of turn whether or not Chimeric Idol is phased-in or not. If Chimeric Idol turned into a 3/3 and was able to phase back in on that same turn, it will know it's 3/3 until end of turn once it phases back in.

Second part of translation of 702.25e: refers to a card like Aladdin being phased-out. (this is the text on Aladdin's ability "Gain control of target artifact for as long as you control Aladdin.")

Let's break it down together: the effect that stipulates that Chimeric Idol is a 3/3 until the end of the turn is live all the way until the turn ends - meaning if you phased it back in in the same turn (impossible with the current card pool), Chimeric Idol would know it's a 3/3 upon phasing-in.
Let's rehash: 3/3 before it phases out, noncreature artifact when it is phased-out, 3/3 again when it phases back in on that same turn.

If Chimeric Idol was a 3/3 in phased-out status, Time and Tide would phase it back in. The animation effect got scrubbed off the Idol the moment it crossed a zone boundary (the exact same thing happens to a Chimeric Idol when it changes actual zones). The difference is that Chimeric Idol performed a Zone A to Zone A change so it never lost memory of what it was in Zone A before it phased out. (the rules are at work here, saying "it just gained phased out status" does not account for what just happened)

You have to start at the beginning with this mechanic. It began as a zone change which functionally occurred within the battlefield zone. Everything we do right now with phasing is flawlessly compatible with re-formalizing the phased-out zone. We have rules that say no zone change occurs anymore - but everything that had to happen to make that zone change work is happening right now.

The only reason we call phasing a status effect (while it's still doing all the old zone change stuff), is that the vast majority of players do not need to know that a phased-out zone exists. It is irrelevant to their entire card pool. Put phasing down as a status effect and these players can remain oblivious.

The one thing that is most important here is that if the phased-out zone was brought back today, no rules would change. If we had the new token rule in effect and formally brought back the phased-out zone, we'd have to undo the mistake and say phased-out tokens go to exile again (like they were always supposed to if they ever were phased out).

If anyone thinks phasing works differently now than it did originally with a phased-out zone, please state how. We all know the rules state that the zone does not exist anymore, but all the rules needed to support the existence of that zone are still in place.

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Originally Posted by Fox

The translation of 702.25e: if a Chimeric Idol makes itself a 3/3 until end of turn, this effect knows to stop at the end of turn whether or not Chimeric Idol is phased-in or not. If Chimeric Idol turned into a 3/3 and was able to phase back in on that same turn, it will know it's 3/3 until end of turn once it phases back in.

Second part of translation of 702.25e: refers to a card like Aladdin being phased-out. (this is the text on Aladdin's ability "Gain control of target artifact for as long as you control Aladdin.")

Let's break it down together: the effect that stipulates that Chimeric Idol is a 3/3 until the end of the turn is live all the way until the turn ends - meaning if you phased it back in in the same turn (impossible with the current card pool), Chimeric Idol would know it's a 3/3 upon phasing-in.
Let's rehash: 3/3 before it phases out, noncreature artifact when it is phased-out, 3/3 again when it phases back in on that same turn.

If Chimeric Idol was a 3/3 in phased-out status, Time and Tide would phase it back in. The animation effect got scrubbed off the Idol the moment it crossed a zone boundary (the exact same thing happens to a Chimeric Idol when it changes actual zones). The difference is that Chimeric Idol performed a Zone A to Zone A change so it never lost memory of what it was in Zone A before it phased out. (the rules are at work here, saying "it just gained phased out status" does not account for what just happened)

You have to start at the beginning with this mechanic. It began as a zone change which functionally occurred within the battlefield zone. Everything we do right now with phasing is flawlessly compatible with re-formalizing the phased-out zone. We have rules that say no zone change occurs anymore - but everything that had to happen to make that zone change work is happening right now.

The only reason we call phasing a status effect (while it's still doing all the old zone change stuff), is that the vast majority of players do not need to know that a phased-out zone exists. It is irrelevant to their entire card pool. Put phasing down as a status effect and these players can remain oblivious.

The one thing that is most important here is that if the phased-out zone was brought back today, no rules would change. If we had the new token rule in effect and formally brought back the phased-out zone, we'd have to undo the mistake and say phased-out tokens go to exile again (like they were always supposed to if they ever were phased out).

If anyone thinks phasing works differently now than it did originally with a phased-out zone, please state how. We all know the rules state that the zone does not exist anymore, but all the rules needed to support the existence of that zone are still in place.

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If I was a mod I would have banned you already for concern trolling

"The animation effect got scrubbed off the idol the moment it crossed a zone boundary" Great, but the Idol didn't change zones, it gained 'phased out' status, 702.25e says that all continuous effects still apply to it so it is a phased out 3/3 and Time and Tide WILL bring it back. "The rules are at work here, saying "it just gained phased out status" does not account for what just happened" I know the rules are at work, thats why I quoted the relevant part of the rulebook which states that it does in fact 'just gain phased out status'. "The rules are at work here" which ones? Do you think there are some secret rules written in invisible ink or something?

We call phasing a status and not a zone change because if you go into the rulebook and look up phasing it is defined as a status and not a zone change. The end.

If the phased out zone was brought back today of course a bunch of rules would change
- The rule defining phased out as a status would disappear
- A the rule stating the different zones would change to incorporate a new 'phasing zone'
- The rules for phasing would change to refer to the phasing zone
More importantly:
- To maintain current functionality a rule stipulating that enter/leave battlefield triggers don't work when things move in/out of the phasing zone would have to be introduced
- Because morphs can phase out you would need to have a rule about having face down cards in the phasing zone and/or facedown cards phasing out and keeping track of which is which.
- Keeping counters on things as they move between battlefield/phasing zones would become actual rules text instead of just a clarification.
- You would also have to have rules text stating that aside from triggered abilities you also can't re-pick your choices for things like Meddling Mage and Pithing Needle and that your Triskelions don't enter with extra counters on them
- You would have to specify that if an aura phased out you aren't allowed to phase it in attached to a different permanent, and that equipments phase back in attached to whatever they were attached to when they phased out
- If an aura was attached to a permanent, and that permanent phased out, you would need to have rules text that keeps them both linked together in the 'phasing zone'
- When your Oblivion Ring moves to the phasing zone the leaves play ability doesn't trigger, when it returns to the battlefield it doesn't trigger, but it should still remember being linked to the object it exiled, so you would need to write another special loophole into the phasing rules for linked abilities.
- You would need to make it so that when things phase-in in the untap step they gain haste. (And also if you phase them back in with e.g. Time and Tide, but only if it wasn't summoning sick when you phased it out.)

So basically, you would invent an extra zone for an ability to function AS a zone change, but then end up adding a truckload of rules text to make it function NOT LIKE a zone change. Isn't that absolutely fucking retarded? The only positive thing you achieve is neatly preserving the original function of phase-out deleting tokens, which in the current (better) implementation of phasing is counter-intuitive, hence why they are changing it.

Is your argument that you want phased out tokens to disappear because that's just how it's always been, and arbitrarily changing the rules is bad? I think this is an okay position to take but I have no idea if it's what your saying, because your posts are so incoherent. (It also means that you would have also had to disagree with damage going on the stack, then not going on the stack, the legend rule changes, mana burn, and that you always have and will think that the best way to play MTG is how it was in 93, which is pretty extreme).

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If anyone thinks phasing works differently now than it did originally with a phased-out zone, please state how.

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Yes, you could write rules text to have it function identically as either a zone change or as a status of a permanent, but the status-based way of doing it is much 'nicer' (as explained above).

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Originally Posted by kombatkiwi

"The animation effect got scrubbed off the idol the moment it crossed a zone boundary" Great, but the Idol didn't change zones, it gained 'phased out' status, 702.25e says that all continuous effects still apply to it so it is a phased out 3/3 and Time and Tide WILL bring it back.

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Wrong. Figure out the rules.


[1,2,3] Yes if we re-introduced the zone, it would have to be called a zone.
[4] Phasing has always either been or acted exactly like a zone change within a zone. No matter what half of the battlefield you are on, you're touching the battlefield (it was never put that simply, but that's how it works), phasing has never caused ETBs and LTBs to trigger.
[5] Flipping cards to show it is phased-out is merely good form as it provides a clear indication that something is phased out. Morph/Manifest might have to change, but all they really need to do is keep track of whether or not they're phased out as well.
[6] Phasing is a zone change within a zone, these cards are still the same objects. Phasing has always carried counters through the half-zone change.
[7] "As it enters" never happens when you phase back in, never has, never will.
[8,9] Indirect Phasing is completely covered under current rules, no addendum is needed.
[10]Comp REL example: Opponent on Enchantress, O-Rings my Notion Thief. Later in the game I resolve Teferi's Realm. I name global enchantments, so they all phase out. Here is what happens already under magic rules: O-Ring phased out, Notion Thief is still in exile, Notion Thief is still tagged to O-Ring from exile. O-Ring phases in, and it's still exiling the same Notion Thief. This is how rules work currently.
[11]No, they don't need to have haste, they are already on the battlefield.

I wonder if this helps? The rules of current phasing are exactly simulating a move to the phased-out zone. We only call it a status effect so that only people using it will have to know (otherwise everyone who plays magic has a whole irrelevant zone to know about). What's tricky about phasing is that the object you phased-out is the exact same object that phases-in. Everything that happens when a card moves from Zone A to Zone B will happen to a permanent when it phases out *except* it only went from Zone A to Zone A so it's slightly different because it did all that while technically within the same battlefield zone. You can call it a status effect all you want, this is what phasing is and has always been or acted exactly like: a zone change within a zone. This is why we exile tokens, they crossed a zone boundary, albeit a specialized one.

I never thought I'd see some one have such a meltdown over something so meaningless, but here we are. From a rules perspective in the years I've judged we've never treated phasing as a zone change so this token thing makes perfect sense.

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Originally Posted by HSCK

I never thought I'd see some one have such a meltdown over something so meaningless, but here we are. From a rules perspective in the years I've judged we've never treated phasing as a zone change so this token thing makes perfect sense.

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Ok so then, we've brought back the phasing zone - what rules do you need to add? None, all the rules are in place.

Congrats on never having to think phasing is a zone change, that's the point - we can call it a status effect...well you know, as long as we perfectly simulate an unknowing move to the phased-out zone.

What the fuck is this stupid thread about ?

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

I feel like you're trying to infer the existence of a Phasing zone based on empirical evidence, like it's a physics problem or something. The issue is that the rules of Magic aren't derived from the natural world like the laws of physics. Some people made them up a long time ago, and continue to, and they're all written down. This whole Zone Theory thing doesn't hold any water because even if it behaves like a zone 100% of the time, the creators/maintainers of the game have said it isn't, and so it isn't, period.

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/thread

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Originally Posted by ParkerLewis

What the fuck is this stupid thread about ?



/thread

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-Why is an animated Chimeric Idol a 3/3 on the battlefield and a non-creature artifact when phased-out.
-Why is a phased-out attacker removed from combat.

These rules highlight that a zone boundary was crossed. These rules describe a moved to the phased-out zone. There is no longer a phased-out zone, but the take home message is this: we are simulating that move exactly. It is because all the rules define what would happen were there to be a phased-out zone that we can call phasing a status effect and not have to have a game zone most formats can't use.

Remember always how we got to this point: by having all these rules perfectly mimic a move to a phased-out zone.

When you start poking holes in this wall of rules, you are exposing the phasing zone which isn't supposed to exist anymore. You can't simplify these rules, because they aren't random. If we say tokens don't exile upon phasing out, what is next? Maybe we say phasing out shouldn't remove a creature from combat (seems kinda pointless right). Maybe then we say Chimeric Idol should also be a 3/3 when phased-out....at which point it starts remembering something like -X/-X until EoT effect...at which point we have all the justification for Chimeric Idol to talk with any cards it pulled into an indirect phase...and now we've actually got a phased-out battlefield where cards are talking to cards and we can't call it a status effect anymore because that doesn't explain what is happening.

It's all fine and good to say it's a status effect, you have respect fact that it's a semantics workaround that has to invalidate the need for a formal phased-out zone (by doing everything that a move to that zone would have required). It sucks, but it isn't simple matter of status - permanents that phase out are silently passing through the same agglomeration of rules that separate entire zones (except they're staying in the same zone as the same object, so it's a little different) each time they phase out.

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Originally Posted by Fox

Ok so then, we've brought back the phasing zone - what rules do you need to add? None, all the rules are in place.

Congrats on never having to think phasing is a zone change, that's the point - we can call it a status effect...well you know, as long as we perfectly simulate an unknowing move to the phased-out zone.

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But...it's not a zone change. By Magic Law, it is not a zone change. It's a status change. There are no "tapped" and "untapped" zones, there are no "flipped" and "unflipped" zones, there are no "phased in" and "phased out" zones. Being phased out confers certain abilities, all of which mimic being in a different zone, but the card is still in the Battlefield Zone. It never leaves.

Even when phasing was a zone change, it acted like NO OTHER zone change in the game. In fact, the only way it acted like a zone change at all was tokens disappearing when they left the battlefield - which was totally arbitrary, because a whole pile of other things that happen when a card changes zones, like forgetting counters, flipped/unflipped status, not being morphed anymore, etc., DIDN'T happen. For whatever reason, tokens were the one thing that they didn't bend the game rules to accommodate when phasing officially became a zone change.

So they made it not a zone change, because it didn't need to be one. The decision to kill tokens as part of changing status was a totally arbitrary decision made as a nod to a totally arbitrary functional decision made during the previous zone change rule. It made no sense that tokens, and only tokens, were the only thing that acted like a zone change with respect to phasing. Your attempt to empirically prove that tokens should disappear because "that's how the Mirage rulebook said it" and also "Millennials these days are so entitled and have it so easy, man when I used to play Magic it was uphill both ways in the snow with no shoes on," is at best deeply misguided.

Things change, dude. It's okay. Everything is going to be okay.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

But...it's not a zone change. By Magic Law, it is not a zone change. It's a status change. There are no "tapped" and "untapped" zones, there are no "flipped" and "unflipped" zones, there are no "phased in" and "phased out" zones. Being phased out confers certain abilities, all of which mimic being in a different zone, but the card is still in the Battlefield Zone. It never leaves.

Even when phasing was a zone change, it acted like NO OTHER zone change in the game. In fact, the only way it acted like a zone change at all was tokens disappearing when they left the battlefield - which was totally arbitrary, because a whole pile of other things that happen when a card changes zones, like forgetting counters, flipped/unflipped status, not being morphed anymore, etc., DIDN'T happen. For whatever reason, tokens were the one thing that they didn't bend the game rules to accommodate when phasing officially became a zone change.

So they made it not a zone change, because it didn't need to be one. The decision to kill tokens as part of changing status was a totally arbitrary decision made as a nod to a totally arbitrary functional decision made during the previous zone change rule. It made no sense that tokens, and only tokens, were the only thing that acted like a zone change with respect to phasing. Your attempt to empirically prove that tokens should disappear because "that's how the Mirage rulebook said it" and also "Millennials these days are so entitled and have it so easy, man when I used to play Magic it was uphill both ways in the snow with no shoes on," is at best deeply misguided.

Things change, dude. It's okay. Everything is going to be okay.

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There's a problem with your logic, so let's use the exile zone as the example:
-all rules around the exile zone and all interactions relating to it are written down in it's own area of the rules.
-because we've erected a wall of rules around the exile zone, we will now say the zone itself does not exist - the game still works as intended.
-removed from game is now a status.
-WotC gets the bright idea to say "removed from game isn't a zone, it's a status so we don't really need tokens to stop existing because it's not a zone change" (all other zone changes still make the tokens cease to exist when they change zones stuff).
-someone pops a Planar Guide (while tokens are in play), all creatures gain RFG status and....oops, tokens are coming back into play.

This is what phasing is; it's all the rules of the phased-out zone written down so we can safely say the zone doesn't exist anymore. You can't seal away a zone in a wall of rules and then start tearing down the wall.

-Of course a phased-out card never leaves the battlefield; magic has technically had two battlefields since mirage, one phased-in and the other phased-out.
-Of course phasing acted like no other zone change, it went from one half of the battlefield to the other half, all the while it's still inside the battlefield zone. The other zone changes started in one zone and ended up in another
-Of course it acted like an actual zone change in more ways than just exiling tokens. It removed from combat, cards that affected the phased-in battlefield could not affect the phased-out portion (unless they specifically directed it to), and a trip to the phased-out zone turns an animated Chimeric Idol into a non-creature artifact for the duration of its stay there (that animation effect still knows it goes away at end of that turn despite phased-out status).
-Of course it isn't arbitrary, we never left the overall battlefield zone. It can't become a new object - how then could that same object ever forget what it was right before it phased-out (like counters, damage on it, effects that say lasted until the end of turn??
-Of course representing phased-out status by physically flipping over a card doesn't really jive with face-down cards, two-faced cards, nor with tokens which are printed on cardboard shaped like a real card and probably will have a different token critter printed on the back in the future. Physically flipping over a card isn't actually needed to make the phased-out zone work, you could just put these cards in their own part of your playmat (just like we put graveyard and exile in their own piles).

-Of course phasing needs to be like a zone change, you can't go around having an animated Chimeric Idol being the same object going from a 3/3 to a noncreature artifact in the same turn without explanation as if it didn't just run through to another zone. That's the only way that happens (short of the animation expiring at EoT).

You see dear sirs, you don't understand what phasing is. This should have helped from earlier:

You draw a circle and title it "the battlefield zone" and bisect it with a line and label one half "phased-in" and the other half "phased-out." That is to say that no matter what half of the boundary you find yourself on, you're always touching the actual battlefield.

That boundary has every rule of a full-on zone change (within the context of never leaving the same overall zone). The reason it's not called a zone change is that is that it's technically a zone change within the same zone. There's always going to be a problem with saying "not a zone change, no exiling tokens" because they just tripped every mechanical rule they have to obey when crossing a zone boundary.

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Edit: I understand why people go from no phased-out zone, to phased-out is a status effect, to see the token thing is fine. The problem is the status effect - that's not the real answer. There's a slew of mechanics at work and all of those mechanics are built around making the phased-out zone work flawlessly. This perfect functioning is what allows us to say there is no phased-out zone, because we have the blueprint to navigate it. When we say phasing out is a status effect, we're actually sending a permanent through the rules algorithm which is effectively running as if the phased-out zone exists. So unfortunately, we can say that the status effect operates in the exact same mechanical way that the old phased-out zone used to work, and that means we're pushing a permanent through the zone boundary rules of phasing. This is way more complex than tapping and untapping, that internal zone boundary is still inside the battlefield and we're still crossing it each time we phase-out.

I mean what the fuck how is this still

...this game is replete with functional analogues, if you're trying to suggest that phasing acts like a zone change even though it technically isn't. That literally does not matter. Things appear to be the same on the surface but what happens under the hood reveals a different process.

As just some basic examples -- We can use protection effects to counter spells on resolution, but that doesn't make Mother of Runes a 1 mana Counterspell on a stick. No one would call it that, it would reveal a gross misunderstanding of the cards referenced. We can affect creatures with damage and with -1/-1 counters in very similar ways but that does not make Mutilate "secretly a damage spell, if you really think about it and bisect some shit".

Again I have to say that your arguments just sound like an internalized understanding of a set of rules that may make sense to you but aren't actually the way things are. It's like listening to Barry Harris talk about jazz theory; nobody doubts that man embodies jazz, but he has it so inured in his being that listening to him talk shop is painful and he sounds like a crumpled old man rambling about DNA in diminished scales and shit. This is like Magic: the Terryology right here, I feel like I'm validating it too much by replying.

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Originally Posted by TsumiBand

I mean what the fuck how is this still

...this game is replete with functional analogues, if you're trying to suggest that phasing acts like a zone change even though it technically isn't. That literally does not matter. Things appear to be the same on the surface but what happens under the hood reveals a different process.

As just some basic examples -- We can use protection effects to counter spells on resolution, but that doesn't make Mother of Runes a 1 mana Counterspell on a stick. No one would call it that, it would reveal a gross misunderstanding of the cards referenced. We can affect creatures with damage and with -1/-1 counters in very similar ways but that does not make Mutilate "secretly a damage spell, if you really think about it and bisect some shit".

Again I have to say that your arguments just sound like an internalized understanding of a set of rules that may make sense to you but aren't actually the way things are. It's like listening to Barry Harris talk about jazz theory; nobody doubts that man embodies jazz, but he has it so inured in his being that listening to him talk shop is painful and he sounds like a crumpled old man rambling about DNA in diminished scales and shit. This is like Magic: the Terryology right here, I feel like I'm validating it too much by replying.

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Ok so you want simpler wording then. Let's compare the status effect of tapping/untapping and phased-in/phased-out during a single turn.
-animated Chimeric Idol is an untapped 3/3. When it becomes tapped it is a 3/3. This change does not remove from combat.
-animated Chimeric Idol is a phased-in 3/3. When it phases-out it is a noncreature artifact. This change does remove from combat.

Phasing is called a status effect so that we don't need to have a phased-out zone that doesn't matter to people not using the mechanic. The status effect of phasing-out works exactly like we brought back the phased-out zone and sent a permanent there and back. The mechanical interactions of what happens when a permanent gains the phased-out status are the exact same as what would happen if it went to the phased-out zone (that is why Chimeric Idol exhibits the qualities of crossing a zone boundary while staying within the same overall zone in above example). These interactions are defined by current rules, and the status effect of phasing-out uses them. Calling phasing a status effect really only means we're not calling it a zone; it is the only status effect afaik which mechanically simulates the existence of an entire zone.

You have to understand that people don't get phasing, and when I say we could bring back the phased-out zone today and there would be no rules changes needed it's actually demonstrably true. The only thing that needs to be cleaned-up is the practice of physically flipping cards over to represent that they are in the phased-out zone. Your examples each have their own rules. The sum of the differences there do not point to simulating the existence of an entire zone to explain what happened mechanically.

I think this farce has gone on for long enough.

@Fox: Please read the following sections of the Magic Comprehensive Rules: 400, "Zones - General"; 403, "Battlefield"; 702.25, "Phasing"; and specifically 702.25d. Please note that 702.25k and 704.5d are being removed in a future rules update.

@Everyone else: if the rules change opens up new interactions or deck possibilities, please discuss those specific things in new or existing threads.