Printable View
So did the math on this and actually Breakthrough does work as Brainfreeze 5-8. Since Breakthrough puts 4 cards in the grave and only costs 1 it pays for itself and add 1 extra card to the grave. After casting it 3 times, you have enough cards to exile to cast LED and repeat the process. Do this enough until you find Brainfreeze to put a whole bunch of cards in your grave and then just loop Lightning Bolts FTW.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
I'm a little lost on why you would want the Bolts. Why not just Brain Freeze for lethal? Bolt could be a nice sideboard inclusion against Ethersworn Canonist though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
I just don't trust Brainfreeze for the win and prefer to have a win con that doesn't involve passing the turn or gets thwarted if opponent is running an Eldrazi.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
Thanks for the math on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
Trying to map the most consistent and fastest combo:
- Turn 1 - Land
- If you have LED+Underworld Break+Brainfreeze OR Breakthrough
- If you have any other acceleration
- Can accel + cast Underworld Break + LED --> Win the game
- If you are missing LED or Underworld Break --> cast Enlightened Tutor and pass the turn.
- Turn 2- Land or Accel
- If you have LED+Underworld Break+BrainfreezeOR Breakthrough - cast Underworld Break + LED --> Win the game [I]
To increase odds of turn 1 win that means 8-10 accel that is not LED:
So with no protection for the above you can have:
4 Brainfreeze
4 Breakthrough
4 Lightning Bolt
4 LED
4 Underworld Break
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Lotus Petal
4 Rite of Flame
14 Lands
Then you can add in the Xerox package of
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Open
As much as I'd like to have a deck named after me, here's the place I first saw it: https://twitter.com/JacobNagroQuote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
https://i.imgur.com/lsPgPQe.jpg'
RR, dredge 16?
If you're trying to maximize early game explosiveness, you probably don't need 4 Bolts. 2 Bolts or 1 Bolt + 1 Grapeshot might be enough. After all, Bolt can be retraced over and over. Game 1 it's just the back-up wincon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
//Lands: 14
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
//Other Mana: 14
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
2 Chrome Mox
//Protection: 8
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
//Cantrips: 14
4 Brainstorm
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Ponder
3 Breakthrough
//Combo: 10
4 Underworld Break
4 Brain Freeze
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Grapeshot
As amazing as Breakthrough is with the combo, it's a really really bad card without Underworld Break online. 4 copies seems like overkill. I like the idea of some real cantrips to help you find pieces through disruption.
Faithless Looting might be better than Ponder, don't know. Ponder digs more cards and helps the blue count for FoW and FoN (sideboard probably needs 2-3 FoN to stop storm hate).
Silence might be better protection here than some of the free counters, since you can't hold up counters after blowing the first LED. LED-based fast combo decks don't usually run counters. Flusterstorm (SB or MB?) could be better than Daze, because you can cast it from the graveyard for 1 mana.
I like the Bolt/Grapeshot split to play around Surgical and even Chalice @ 1 (this deck can actually go off through a Chalice @ 1 with Break + LED + Brain Freeze)
Yep that makes sense, although I still think finding room for infernal tutor will be the next step. Also to avoid need for islands why not just for pact of negation and run 8 free hard counters? Also as for looting over ponder just remember that we need to have 16+ blue cards for fow and not sure we can count brainfreeze or breakthrough in hand at least due to it being necessary to go off?
Do we need another color? Could Burning Wish fill that role?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
Once you have black mana and Infernal Tutor + LED, then Dark Ritual looks better than Rite of Flame, 1-of Tendrils looks better than 1-of Grapeshot, and suddenly you're 90% of an ANT deck...
Or we could just run 4 Pact of Negation + 4 Silence (or Thoughtseize if adding black) and drop both FoW and Daze, removing the restriction on Islands and blue cards.Quote:
Also to avoid need for islands why not just for pact of negation and run 8 free hard counters? Also as for looting over ponder just remember that we need to have 16+ blue cards for fow
FoW and Daze only protect you before you use the first LED. It doesn't stop opponent from letting you crack LED, then countering the tutor/other spell or killing your enchantment. Proactive protection might work better with the LED plan. Pact can at least be cast from the graveyard for 0 mana, seems strong.
One more suggestion... entomb. It can tutor either LED or brainstorm once you have underworld break in play....
What's really a cool interaction is that you can play Stifle in the sideboard to beat Faerie Macabre. When you crack LED and discard your stifle, you are protected mid combo.
In the storm discord, we named the deck BUB - Brainfreeze Underworld Breach
All storm decks need a 3 letter acronym!
That is a cool interaction. You could beat Surgical the same way with Flusterstorm (1 mana) or Pact of Negation (0 mana).Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
Another cool thing about this combo is you can play around an active Chalice @ 1 + Blood Moon and win through LED + Break + Brain Freeze, killing with Grapeshot.
What about a more all-in RB version?
LED provides blue mana for Brain Freeze and you don't need Brain Freeze outside the combo, so maybe you don't need blue.
//Spells: 25
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Entomb
4 Thoughtseize
3 Faithless Looting
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Brain Freeze
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
//Enchantments: 4
4 Underworld Breach
//Mana: 18
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
//Lands: 14
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
3 Badlands
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
//Sideboard Options:
x Pact of Negation
x Duress
x Silent Gravestone
x Wear // Tear
x Hope of Ghirapur
x Silence
x Empty the Warrens
x Grapeshot
x Meltdown
x Pyroclasm
Instead of playing cantrips and redundant draw/discard, I maxed out on tutors for the main pieces.
Tutors
Enlightened Tutor - finds LED or Breach for 1 mana
Gamble - finds LED, Breach or Brain Freeze for 1 mana, though the random discard makes hand sculpting awkward
Entomb - finds Brain Freeze or LED. Mid-combo it can find Past in Flames/Tendrils/anything else to win.
Infernal Tutor - finds more rituals or gets Breach or Brain Freeze after cracking a LED. Or it can just get Past in Flames to storm off without Breach.
Main Win Engine
Assemble Breach + LED + Brain Freeze. Mill yourself over and over, building mana and storm. Then Brain Freeze or Infernal Tutor->Tendrils the opponent. Entomb -> Past in Flames also gives you options to recast more things from graveyard without exiling so many cards.
Alternate Win condition
Just chain fast mana, rituals, tutors and Past in Flames to generate Storm 10 and win with Tendrils the old-fashioned way. This path can win without ever needing Underworld Breach or LED.
Edit: After some testing I found Gamble too unpredictable. Even when you don't lose a combo piece, it interferes with your ability to sequence turns or plan which lands to fetch. Replaced by Faithless Looting for now.
Both Enlightened Tutor and Entomb were very strong despite the card disadvantage. Costing 1 mana is critical to curve out for the turn 2 win. Infernal Tutor was good sometimes, but often it was useless or too slow, so I think 4 copies was overkill. I like having it in the deck, but this build is more constrained on mana than ANT.
Brain Freeze is back up to 4 copies. I thought you could just reuse a tutor (Gamble, Entomb) to find it once you have LED + Breach, but in practice it's too taxing on your graveyard to try to Escape other spells before Brain Freeze. It's easier to have Brain Freeze naturally.
Chrome Mox might be better as Simian Spirit Guide or some other mana source. Exiling the card hurts, and I couldn't always exile a card of the color I wanted, so it often taps for "colorless".
You mean brain freeze. Yeah it can tutor them both if you can pay for escape making it a 2 card combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cire
Darkblast for some dredge and hatebear removal?
It might make sense to put this into that echo storm deck, or some kind of hybrid version.
does this deck just loses to surgical extraction ?
I think it needs something against grave hate, cause other way just playing reanimator seems beter to me.
yea i thought about this a bunch. i'm wondering if it makes sense to run a singleton in ANT and also testing it in Ruby Storm. (I posted in the Ruby Thread)
in ANT it could be interesting as it fills up the graveyard pretty fast with all the rituals + cantrips + fetches.
// 60 Maindeck
// 12 Artifact
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ruby Medallion
4 Lotus Petal
// 4 Enchantment
4 Underworld Breach
// 8 Instant
4 Seething Song
4 Manamorphose
// 14 Land
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Taiga
3 Mountain
4 Ancient Tomb
// 22 Sorcery
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Reforge the Soul
4 Act on Impulse
2 Past in Flames
2 Hazoret's Undying Fury
3 Ignite the Future
// 8 Sideboard
// 5 Sorcery
SB: 1 Echo of Eons
SB: 1 Past in Flames
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Grapeshot
SB: 1 Reforge the Soul
// 3 Enchantment
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
Who plays Surgical main though? Post-board you can bring in stuff like Pact of Negation, Silent Gravestone, Silence, Flusterstorm, discard, etc.. Pact counters Surgical for 0 mana before the combo, mid-combo, or even while cracking LED with a spell on the stack.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Surgical on LED/Underworld Breach or Revoker on LED is also why it's good to have another win condition (e.g. Storm 10 the normal way).
As for this vs Reanimator, I goldfished many turn 2 wins and the occasional turn 1 win. This deck can be quite explosive, and we don't care about Karakas or Swords to Plowshares/Terminus/Oko/Bridge/edicts etc., so there are distinct differences with Reanimator (not saying it's better).
In ANT yeah it'd be an interesting alternate win. If you have a tutor and don't mind graveyard vulnerability, are there times you would want Underworld Breach over Past in Flames? IDK. Maybe.