Would you be upset if WOTC allows proxies for reserve list cards at sanctioned event?

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Originally Posted by thecrav

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WotC allows judge-issued proxies in sanctioned events. (See the handling of [card]Kess, Dissident Mage[/card] at GP Seattle 2018) What most people call "proxies" WotC has decided are called "playtest cards."

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Meta-level pedantry

It's actually pedantry, not pendantry.

I'll show myself out...

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

While the experience may be different, those who want to show that Legacy has relevance have no choice to embrace Magic Online because of the advantage of no reserved list applying along with far more reasonable prices, along with there being actual relevant support.

The smart Vintage players gave in to that reality, if the Legacy players want to be able to play relevant Legacy they had better do the same. (Really, all competitive formats face this reality, it will just take longer for Pioneer because it is not on Arena yet.)

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I can't agree with this. Seattle has had no problems with a thriving paper Legacy scene for at least the past 10 years. Large series, such as Puget Sound Battleground, were successful and eager to repeat. That was true in other parts of the country, with events like the big Missouri tournaments (https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...ament_feedback) and Eternal Weekend, and there were overseas events that were big, too. Things are at a standstill now because of the pandemic, but that's true in far more arenas and ways than paper Legacy. Paper Legacy has plenty of relevance, but obviously there aren't many parts of the world holding large, in-person events right now. I don't like your implication that those who prefer in-person experiences to virtual ones are not smart. Vintage has much larger price barriers than Legacy and fewer substitutes available (due to power), and that's always been the case, but in-person Vintage events are feasible where there is enough interest and effort.

I would not be upset one bit. I think it would be a good thing. I own basically all of legacy, so in terms of me playing decks I want, it doesn't affect me. But if it helps someone else play that's a good thing.
A few other comments, though. I would greatly prefer if these proxies were not just sharpie on a land or magic back. Not sure what the best way to do proxies would be. What I do for proxies (I do this if for example I own 1 copy of a card, but want to play it in multiple commander decks or something) I make a photocopy of the card, print and cut it out on regular printer paper. Then put a random card + the photocopy in a sleeve. Then, you know what the card is, what it does, it has the normal art so you can identify it at a glance, but it's also just a poopy copy so you know it's not real and could never be mistaken as a real card. And personally I don't think the added paper in the sleeve is identifiable in the deck, but others may disagree.
I also don't know how much allowing proxies would actually do to get people into the format. I don't think proxy events pull in as many extra people as some seem to think.
I also don't think wizards would ever actually allow proxies.
Eternal extravaganza used to allow I think it was up to 15 proxies for vintage. And that did allow me to play in the vintage event since I was already going for the legacy event. So honestly, my gut feeling is that allowing proxies would help more legacy players play vintage than it would make, say, modern players want to play legacy.
People just don't like proxies, knowing that they'll never be able to play the "real thing". Reprinting reserved list would do more than allowing proxies would (although that point is probably obvious).


I wonder if they could like, edit the reserved list again. Not by taking cards off, but by revising it by changing the statement "these will never be reprinted", to something like, "we will never print more than x amount of copies of these cards per year or per x amount of years."
I know many people think the legal argument is bogus anyway, but perhaps by keeping the list "intact" they could create some kind of legal loophole. I would be down for that.


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Not really an intellectual argument, just one vote- I would *love* unlimited (reasonable quality) proxies because removing the primary barrier of entry yields more opponents. I still play this game primarily to meet new people and socialize. I look forward to the day where my $5300 delver deck falls to $400 and the difference is made up with an expanded player base.

Why would WOTC ever allow proxies in their events? Why would they ever support unsanctioned events?
That said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d004BlPRVN4

Our LGS' Legacy events have always allowed proxies. I hate it. While some proxies are of quality that they are almost indistinguishable from the real thing, most are scrawled in marker, or printed poorly and cut out unevenly. A piece of printer paper shoved into a sleeve makes them a different thickness. Trying to assess a complicated battlefield with many permanents on it becomes much harder when you have to constantly remind yourself "OK, that's a Mox Diamond" because the proxy is so low quality that it isn't apparent on first glance.

I am perfectly OK with them as playtest cards for a casual context when there are no stakes. Our team does this before big events. However, if I went to a 'real' legacy tournament where I paid money to enter and prizes are on the line, I'd be pretty pissed to see proxies across the table from me.

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Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc

Why would WOTC ever allow proxies in their events? Why would they ever support unsanctioned events?
That said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d004BlPRVN4

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Unsanctioned events are by definition unsupported.

That said and also to reiterate:
Does anyone in the legacy community even care about events being sanctioned or not?
Almost all events are run by local stores or something like Bazaar of Moxen or SCG.
In the long term traders could even benefit from running proxy events to generate interest in the format which boosts sales of other relevant cards.
Considering that modern is already starting to price out some people as well as receiving less support, people might be interested to also play legacy.
With the power level of more recent cards, the overlap of the pool of relevant cards is not so small anymore.

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Originally Posted by TinkerRobot

Our LGS' Legacy events have always allowed proxies. I hate it. While some proxies are of quality that they are almost indistinguishable from the real thing, most are scrawled in marker, or printed poorly and cut out unevenly. A piece of printer paper shoved into a sleeve makes them a different thickness. Trying to assess a complicated battlefield with many permanents on it becomes much harder when you have to constantly remind yourself "OK, that's a Mox Diamond" because the proxy is so low quality that it isn't apparent on first glance.

I am perfectly OK with them as playtest cards for a casual context when there are no stakes. Our team does this before big events. However, if I went to a 'real' legacy tournament where I paid money to enter and prizes are on the line, I'd be pretty pissed to see proxies across the table from me.

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This sums up my thoughts and feelings. How do I 'like' a post? I don't use snapbook regularly and it looks like they changed the interface again...

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Originally Posted by TinkerRobot

Our LGS' Legacy events have always allowed proxies. I hate it. While some proxies are of quality that they are almost indistinguishable from the real thing, most are scrawled in marker, or printed poorly and cut out unevenly. A piece of printer paper shoved into a sleeve makes them a different thickness. Trying to assess a complicated battlefield with many permanents on it becomes much harder when you have to constantly remind yourself "OK, that's a Mox Diamond" because the proxy is so low quality that it isn't apparent on first glance.

I am perfectly OK with them as playtest cards for a casual context when there are no stakes. Our team does this before big events. However, if I went to a 'real' legacy tournament where I paid money to enter and prizes are on the line, I'd be pretty pissed to see proxies across the table from me.

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Is there a cutoff for a smaller event/lower prize support that you would be ok playing against proxies? I completely see your point about the card recognition, I deal with that in playtesting/kitchen table stuff and stuff gets missed all the time because of that. Just curious if you'd feel the same at like a small weekly with $10 in prizes to T8 vs something more significant like a $K event or something.

I voted for allowing and think i'm probably still on board allowing it after hearing the above case, at least in the smaller events, just to grow the player base. Outside of Magic Fest, I've only seen a max of 8 players in an event within several hours of me. So maybe each of our local scenes is influencing our votes as well. I guess to counter my own post, there are plenty of non-tier but still competitive decks that can be made on a budget relative to modern so there are alternatives. Maybe its just a stigma people have and they don't even try to get over it.

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Originally Posted by c-cream1

I would not be upset one bit. I think it would be a good thing. I own basically all of legacy, so in terms of me playing decks I want, it doesn't affect me. But if it helps someone else play that's a good thing.
A few other comments, though. I would greatly prefer if these proxies were not just sharpie on a land or magic back. Not sure what the best way to do proxies would be. What I do for proxies (I do this if for example I own 1 copy of a card, but want to play it in multiple commander decks or something) I make a photocopy of the card, print and cut it out on regular printer paper. Then put a random card + the photocopy in a sleeve. Then, you know what the card is, what it does, it has the normal art so you can identify it at a glance, but it's also just a poopy copy so you know it's not real and could never be mistaken as a real card. And personally I don't think the added paper in the sleeve is identifiable in the deck, but others may disagree.
I also don't know how much allowing proxies would actually do to get people into the format. I don't think proxy events pull in as many extra people as some seem to think.
I also don't think wizards would ever actually allow proxies.
Eternal extravaganza used to allow I think it was up to 15 proxies for vintage. And that did allow me to play in the vintage event since I was already going for the legacy event. So honestly, my gut feeling is that allowing proxies would help more legacy players play vintage than it would make, say, modern players want to play legacy.
People just don't like proxies, knowing that they'll never be able to play the "real thing". Reprinting reserved list would do more than allowing proxies would (although that point is probably obvious).


I wonder if they could like, edit the reserved list again. Not by taking cards off, but by revising it by changing the statement "these will never be reprinted", to something like, "we will never print more than x amount of copies of these cards per year or per x amount of years."
I know many people think the legal argument is bogus anyway, but perhaps by keeping the list "intact" they could create some kind of legal loophole. I would be down for that.


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

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Definitely the proxy card should have the layout like an original card, so can be recognized from afar to reduce Dryad arbor effect. Maybe with a watermark to note it is not a real thing or even better, using the card image from mtgo (not sure if all cards have that though).

Reserved list will not get abolished just for the fact wotc want to push formats that make them selling more cards, if they supported Legacy they had to print even more ludicrous cards like Oko, which will not ruin just standard, but even modern. Despite that, legacy will not die, nostalgia is a big drive factor of this game.

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Originally Posted by drekonja

Reserved list will not get abolished just for the fact wotc want to push formats that make them selling more cards, if they supported Legacy they had to print even more ludicrous cards like Oko, which will not ruin just standard, but even modern. Despite that, legacy will not die, nostalgia is a big drive factor of this game.

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So, like, commander legends?

I don't like proxies. If someone needs 4 didgeridoos they should buy them just like I did.

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Originally Posted by kinda

I don't like proxies. If someone needs 4 didgeridoos they should buy them just like I did.

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Did you buy them before or after their price went up two-thousand six-hundred percent?

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

Did you buy them before or after their price went up two-thousand six-hundred percent?

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Before I've had them for years.

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Originally Posted by kinda

I don't like proxies. If someone needs 4 didgeridoos they should buy them just like I did.

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You do know the bigger the player base, the higher the chance of people buying in. When that happens, people who really enjoy the game while playing with proxies will eventually buy the real cards...

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

You do know the bigger the player base, the higher the chance of people buying in. When that happens, people who really enjoy the game while playing with proxies will eventually buy the real cards...

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Or they'll only play in proxy events.

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Originally Posted by kinda

Or they'll only play in proxy events.

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So there would be more Legacy players at local stores? That sounds pretty good.

Also, anecdotal though it is, I started playing Legacy at unsanctioned proxy tournaments. I then bought duals, Forces, a Tabernac, and more because I want to own the cards. I don't care whether other people buy in; I just like actually getting to play Legacy.

Of course, the biggest barrier to paper Legacy right now is that people in this country won't put on a fucking mask, so the whole argument feels a bit academic at this stage.

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Originally Posted by kinda

Or they'll only play in proxy events.

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What's wrong with that? If the scene has 100 players, if 10% decide to buy into staples, you benefit.

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Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce

So there would be more Legacy players at local stores? That sounds pretty good.

Also, anecdotal though it is, I started playing Legacy at unsanctioned proxy tournaments. I then bought duals, Forces, a Tabernac, and more because I want to own the cards. I don't care whether other people buy in; I just like actually getting to play Legacy.

Of course, the biggest barrier to paper Legacy right now is that people in this country won't put on a fucking mask, so the whole argument feels a bit academic at this stage.

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So you went from trying it out with proxies to dumping ~$4k or more from the sound of it into legacy? The number of people willing to do this when they could play other much cheaper formats or other games I'm sure is very low.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

What's wrong with that? If the scene has 100 players, if 10% decide to buy into staples, you benefit.

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Not if people begin to sell their collections to buy cars or houses etc. then begin using proxies.