STILL saying this. MoxD and Deed have such a big dissynergy that u simply CANT play them in 1 deck.... btw.... you play 17 real lands(cycling lands=spells) with 4 moxDs? OoQuote:
Originally Posted by rockSTAR
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STILL saying this. MoxD and Deed have such a big dissynergy that u simply CANT play them in 1 deck.... btw.... you play 17 real lands(cycling lands=spells) with 4 moxDs? OoQuote:
Originally Posted by rockSTAR
Cyclers make for excellent Mox fodder as they become good only when LtfL comes on-line.Quote:
STILL saying this. MoxD and Deed have such a big dissynergy that u simply CANT play them in 1 deck.... btw.... you play 17 real lands(cycling lands=spells) with 4 moxDs? Oo
...and I'm still saying that I've been playing them both together and have not once, in the 10 or so times I've Deed'd away my Moxes, had any problems with this. Mox accelerates my early game... by the time I am able to Deed my Moxes, mana screw is not an issue. I run 20 lands... if I need to put a cycle land into play, I'll do so. Otherwise, they pitch to Mox all the same. 17 lands is fine since I run 8 cantrip and Loam to get me as many lands as I need anyway. I've been playing this deck literally all day yesterday and all day today and I have yet to ever get mana screwed due to Deed + Mox... actually, I don't think I've been manascrewed yet at all to be honest (though I'm sure it's bound to happen eventually).Quote:
STILL saying this. MoxD and Deed have such a big dissynergy that u simply CANT play them in 1 deck.... btw.... you play 17 real lands(cycling lands=spells) with 4 moxDs? Oo
EDIT: Yea I got manascrewed in a game just now... I opened with Trop, Sandbar, Mox... I put Mox into play discarding Sandbar, put Trop into play, cantripped, and proceeded to see no other lands and no Loam (though I did have an Intuition).
I totally agree. I think that both cards actually have synergy with each other since you're ultimate goal is to feed your graveyard. That's a point that alot of people overlook when they see those two cards together.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I've played a lot of this deck. Some thoughts:
-You don't need that many fetchlands, probably. I would try dropping 2 Strands for another Island and maybe a Swamp or something.
-I highly doubt you need more than 1 Loam unless you fear it getting RFGed.
-Have you considered Mental Note over Serum Visions? It feeds graveyard better, works very well with Brainstorm, can still dredge off of it, and can pull a Loam back to your hand in response to a Crypt or something.
-Vedalken Shackles is a strong sideboard card. Do you really need the fourth Deed?
I disagree. You need alternative late game fat specifically because you're running Tog. Tog gets neutered by Needle, Crypt, REB, and even chumps like Piledriver. Grave-Troll is good specifically because it dodges this kind of hate completely, while feeding your engine in the early game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I disagree with that. It mostly depends on how you are testing but when you two for 1 yourself with mox diamond and follow that up with a real strong 2 for 2 using deed on top of having to avoid blowing up 'geese, dogs, and togs you've got problems. I love the idea of the deck but I really think mox has to go because you can only generate card advantage with the incredibly slow lftl engine or try and deed more of your opponents guys then your guys. The tempo you are gaining from mox diamond is not worth the card you lose to it. on top of all that discarding a land you really want to have in your gy is also pretty situational (tropical island in gy only has so much combo with lftl.) Sure starting a game with Fetch Mox Lftl is real great but starting a game with turn 2 deed and having to pop it turn 3 and you end up with 2-3 cards left in hand is real tough. mox diamond is really only good if the lftl engine is on.
Have you tried out Brawn at all? I always liked it in my build, because if I didn't see Wonder or my opponent had a flyer I could always Trample over. Of course my build was more of a "combo" build (no LFTL or Deeds). I build it on a modified Gro engine. You could cycle to find Tog then use all the cantrips to fill the yard with repeated Dredges.
I don't really think the deck needs Brawn but if I find myself wishing I had trample, I'll try to fit it in. I'm really against adding more set-up cards though since the deck already has so much it's trying to do.
I think many people are misinterpreting the use of Deed and Mox. You're the one that casts Deed and pops it. If Deed isn't good in a particular situation, don't Deed. It still gives the deck maindeck answers to problematic things. Mox accelerates you're early gameplan... beyond that, it's not too much of an issue. I like being able to cast turn 2 Intuition. Loam ensures I'm making land drops every turn so if I do happen to Deed away a Mox, whatever. If I Deed away a Mox it's because it put me in a favorable position. Mox accelerates Deed anyway... Deed isn't going to save you against Goblins if you die before you pop it. Both cards are great in the deck... even if running both together causes both to lose a little bit of effectiveness in certain areas, the trade-off is worth it. Basically, I've been playtesting this deck quite a bit and it hasn't been a problem. I keep saying this but no one is listening. Does it look bad on paper? Yes. Has it been bad in testing? No. Have any of the naysayers tested it? If not, why are you saying it's bad? The only drawback I've had with Deed is popping my own men... which isn't so bad because if I know I'm going to Deed, I either won't play men or I'll hold onto a couple until I do. The only time I've this has posed a problem so far is when I don't have Genesis in the yard... but I still think Deed is strong in here.
Onto some actual content... I'm thinking of dropping Daze for Stifle. Stifle is much stronger against Goblins and Combo than Daze is (and is also stronger than Counterspell vs both of them too). It also keeps my early mana sources protected from Wasteland until I can establish the Loam engine. It's also pretty good vs Threshold too, since it answers Needle and Mage's CIP effects (being able to cast Deed is huge vs Threshold).
I'll test this... if it works out good, I'll stick with it:
MD
-3 Daze
+3 Stifle
SB
-3 Stifle
+3 ?
Needle and Mage's CIP abilities aren't triggered. They're static abilities that are applied when they come into play. From SCG:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Q: Pithing Needle's naming a card ability looks triggered. Can I Stifle it, as I might a Storm ability?
A: No, Pithing Needle does not have a triggered ability. Triggered abilities all use the words "when," "whenever," and "at". That ability is a static ability that is applied as the Needle comes into play. You cannot Stifle this ability.
Ahh I see. Thanks for the clarification Zilla. Well... I think I still wanna try the Stifles though, since they do play into the mana denial theme vs Threshold and this deck has Waste-lock potential. If they suck too much vs everything else besides Goblins and Combo, I'll probably switch back. However, I think Goblins and Combo are the more important matchups to consider.
Have you considered Engineered Explosives over Deed? And, with the right cantrip/counter base, you could easily support Quirion Dryad along side Pyscatog.
I'm considering putting a couple EE's in the board but I think I'd rather have Deed's main (deals with more things, mainly Goblins). EE's in the board would come in vs Thresh, since it can remove Needles on Deed (and Mongooses). I'm not sure though.
I'm also considering these changes:
-1 Lonely Sandbar
-1 Serum Visions
+1 Underground Sea
+1 Island
With Cephalid Coliseum, I'm finding myself not needing the full 3 Lonely Sandbar. Intuitions either grab 1 Sanbar, 1 Loam, 1 something else or 2 Sandbar and 1 Loam. Coliseum is awesome because once I no longer need to make landrops, I gain superior card quality (Loam up Coliseum and 2 other lands, draw 3 cards, discard the 2 other land cards and 1 other card). It's also great for discarding Genesis/Wonder when I don't have a discard outlet. I also don't want to draw into crappy lands early on, which is why I feel 2 Lonely Sandbar should be sufficient.
I also dropped a Visions so that I could increase my land count to 21. 1 Island 1 Underground Sea seemed like the right call.
I'll try this out and see how it works.
I don't disagree with that at all. Stifle is very strong for all the reasons you mentioned, and is quite likely a better choice than Daze here, particularly because it's added protection against Crypt. Just wanted to clarify about the CIP thing is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Just for reference, this is the decklist (with sideboard) that I've been currently testing:
UGb Aggro DAT
Lands (20)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pit
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Lonely Sandbar
Creatures (12)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Wild Mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
Spells (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Intuition
3 Stifle
4 Force of Will
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Mox Diamond
Sideboard (15)
2 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate
4 Duress
4 Engineered Plague
3 Engineered Explosives
I decided to go back up to 4 Visions because it not only digs for land early, it also digs for Intuition. I don't really want to run 4 Intuition cause I really only need 1 to set up my engine, but I do need to see 1 to set the engine up (if I don't see Loam itself). They also help fuel Threshold without the Loam engine, among the other nifty uses the cantrip has.
I haven't seen too much difference with Stifle instead of Daze so far but I haven't done alot of testing with them yet.
I tuned the board up a little. Krosan Grip can deal with Needle, EE is solid vs Thresh/Fish/Slivers and other randomness, Plague secures my Goblins matchup, Duress/Extirpate makes a solid disruption package vs Combo, and Extirpate can answer other Loam randomness or even hurt Threshold. I'm not sure if I want to fit in Needles yet and I'm not sure how good this board is yet. I'm also unsure of how I want to sideboard for the Big 3 yet... I know what to bring in but I don't know what to pull out.
Zilla is absolutely right. Grave Troll is nearly better than Tog late game! Even with 5 creatures in your yard having that recurring 5/5 Regenerate is nasty. I used to kill people with him alot. His dredge count is beastly and gives you lethal tog very quickly when you Brainstorm and dregge lftl, troll, and stinky. His high dredge count helps you recover from Tormods Crypt as well.
As for the rest of my experience with the deck. Your land count is low and really depends on the Diamonds now. You can definitly play Deed w/ them but now that your only playing one LftL you'll never see that nifty turn one loam much at all. Infact count on rarely ever seeing Loam at all unless you resolve your Intuition.
I dont think you need the Stifles. Anti combo would be better as Chalice of the Void. Take advantage of your draw engine that costs (U) but doesnt actually have a converted mana cost of one. The deck hates Extirpate, Swords to Plowshares, Needle and Tormods Crypt. Chalice is a great answer for all of those. Since your playing Mox you even have a lethal turn one CotV@1. I know Mongoose is nice but look into this tactic. Brainstorm can still be run with Chalice for one in the deck. It pitches to FoW and has huge dredging potential. You really need the chalice to protect you, your not running Cunning Wish for help. Good luck.
Right now, the deck runs 16 1cc spells MD. Pulling them for Chalice @ 1 switches the deck into a completely different version of DAT that no longer is aggro/control and is instead control. I don't really feel that the combo matchup is so bad... the deck can drop Mongooses and achieve Threshold pretty quickly, so the clock isn't slow, and the disruption package (especially post board) is pretty good too. I actually beat TES 2-1 with this deck so far with a timely FoW and proceeding to Waste-lock my opponent's lands with double Mongoose out. Swapping out for Chalice may make my combo matchup better, but I think it's fairly solid as is. The Threshold matchup doesn't really need much help either. If I'm fearing Crypt, I have Stifle. If Needle is the problem, I have Deed main with EE and Krosan Grip in the board. I'm also unsure of how Needle and StP wreck me... I am running alternate win conditions afterall.
Early on, I think the land count is more dependant on the cantrip than the Mox Diamonds since the deck essentially wants to see 3 land drops early on. Mox Diamond accelerates out the manabase but 2 lands + Mox doesn't actually count as 3 lands. Mox gives nice protection vs Wasteland/Port/Sinkhole/etc but I wouldn't go as far as saying that I'm relying on it for mana sources early on. The purpose of them is to either accelerate my early game or allow me to play 2 lands mid-game when my Loam engine is going. Otherwise, they are Mongrel fodder or they simply get dredged away. The cantrips are what make the 20 land count work early game... and they are also what digs for my Intuition. The cantrip has been an extremely strong addition to Tog, despite popular belief. Once I establish Loam, it really doesn't matter how many lands I'm running because I'm going to make a land drop every turn anyway.
I don't need to Loam turn 1. I don't need to dredge ASAP. I realize I need Intuition to see Loam moreoften than not... I'd rather see Intuition first. Intuition sets up the Loam engine... it grabs Loam and the other pieces I need to make the engine good (Lonely Sanbdar, Wasteland, etc). Playing Loam as a 1-of is a pretty smart idea since it reduces dead draws in the deck. You also need to weigh in the fact that I'm running 8 cantrip... I'm going to see my less than 4-of's more often than the # they are on paper (and I'm going to see them earlier than if I had more expensive draw because the cc of the cantrip is so low).
More often than not I win with Mongooses and Mongrels. I don't even gun for playing Psychatog when I play this deck. Basically, I just try to constantly switch from the beatdown to the control in order to constantly be in the better position. I try to get the Loam engine going... I Waste-lock if it's possible, I hit land drops and draw cards. I beat with Mongoose/Mongrel or I defend with Mongoose/Mongrel. I try to get Genesis and Wonder in my yard. If I haven't won with Mongoose/Mongrel beats by the time I can cast Psychatog, then I'll use Psychatog. If I know my opponent plays StP, I won't even attempt to try a Psychatog win. Psychatog is nice in the deck because it basically says that if the game goes long enough, I win regardless. Otherwise, I try to win before I get to that point. I try to slowplay the deck when it comes to building Psychatog... I don't dredge heavily just for the sake of dredging and I'm not gunning to get Psychatog into play ASAP and win ASAP. I like a quicker early game and a slower late-game. This may influence how the deck is currently built a great deal.
As far as Golgari Grave Troll goes... I can see the merits to it. I don't think it really fits into the deck very well the way the deck is designed right now but I won't dismiss it until I try it.