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I wonder why you wouldn't want to play 4 more critters or burn spells instead of 4 rancor...?
@ Peter, I get what you mean :) There are some new guys in Alara that are pretty cool and good, but that doesn't mean they're good enough to replace the older ones :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poesjuh
Becuase Rancor is amazing?
I disagree with you. Both Woolly Thoctor and Wild Nacatl will replace alot of creatures in the deck.
I like Maveric's list. The only beef I have with it are the two Berserk. I'd probably would want two Jittes in those slots instead.
I'm not saying that Woolly and Nacatl won't replace older cards. I'm saying that new cards can be good, but that doesn't mean that they'll replace olders cards all the time. Some do, some don't. I don't have the experience or the play skills to decide when a card is good enough.
Needs more Figure of Destiny. From the testing we've done with various Sligh decks, he seems straight up better than Kird Ape.
The could-be-3/3 dude from Alara is nice. Simply, he is better than Isamaru, since he will be an early game 2/2 and late game 3/3 aganist decks with wastelands and an early-and-late 3/3 versus decks without them.
Oh, it's green too.
Woolly Thoctor is an auto-include as a 2x of. Watchwolf is just so fucking good and this guy one ups him, a solid creature, but in a build without Vial or mana dorks don't run more than 2. Very good card and will kill Goyf a hell of a lot of the time.
Wild Nacatal is strictly inferior to Kird Ape and Figure of Destiny. FoD will certainly claim the spot over this guy, he is to specific and when you get Wastelanded his power and toughness go down fast. It is reliant on to many things.
Goblin Assault is terrible. Way to slow for a deck that can reliably kill the opponent turns 4-5. The same argument goes for Rancor and any additional pump effects for this deck like Berserk, Brute Force, etc. They don't belong in here because they become dead late game. Every card in the Zoo deck needs to have a substantial effect on the game state. When you are in topdeck mode (and it will happen) and all you can draw is fucking Rancor and Berserk after your 1 creature got burned out you will regret playing those cards. They make things explosive and insane but add to many inconsistencies. Rancor is also quite useless, in 10 land stompy it is fucking great but in a deck like Zoo it doesn't belong. You creatures simply die once you target them with Rancor (on the stack) and its a waste of a spell. Everything in your deck has to have an impact. Jitte is the only card that should be played in Zoo as a creature effect because of its substantial impact on the game. Jitte also enables your deck to double as a combo deck: creature + Jitte is a damn good combo that wins games!
Quasali Ambusher is interesting. I really hate it in the main deck since a deck like this doesn't want to sit back and wait for something. Zoo wants to charge at your opponent head first and win ASAP. Certainly this card would be good against Goblins or Elves but Zoo already fucking owns Goblins and Elves so I don't think it is a good as people originally thought. It may be played and may have some form of impact but overall it is not a particularly great card, its a lot like a slightly better version of Rushwood Legate. But the fact you have to wait to be attacked is very weak and totally negates the cannonball-type strategy Zoo emplores.
Exactly what I meant, only you said it with far more words :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Quote:
Originally Posted by Poesjuh
With a Legacy manabase, Wild Nacatl is always going to be a 3/3 for :g:. You really can't justify playing Kird Ape or Figure of Destiny over that.
Wasteland hardly makes the card worse. Think about it; Nacatl will come down turn one off of either a Taiga or a Savannah. Do they Waste that land? If they do, you can fetch up a Plateau next turn and smack for three, anyway. If they sit on the Wasteland until you attack, you can fetch another dual, play Tarmogoyf, and then attack for two damage, which is the same amount of damage that Kird Ape would have hit for. Chances are good that your next land drop will restore Nacatl to a 3/3, so what exactly is your opponent trading their land drop for?
Ambusher is awful. You already have Nacatl, which is insane, and Kird Ape and Skyshroud Elite give you the same body more controllably for only one mana. And I'd rather run Isamaru if you need yet more early drops.
Also, Nacatl is insane. That's all.
Figure of Destiny is nuts...Wild Necatl also seems better than Kird Ape, at least in a three color Zoo deck. I would not jump to saying that Necatl is better than Figure, though. The ability to grow makes Figure one of the stronger turn one plays.
Goyf can block Necatl, and it will always need burn to kill it (a 2-for-1 for your opponent). On the other hand, Figure of Destiny can break through a Wall of Tarmogoyf with only a tempo loss, letting you hold burn in your hand for the dome.
I would guess that Wild Necatl should replace Watchwolf, not Figure of Destiny. Creatures that need consideration, then, are:
Mogg Fantastic
Wild Necatl
Figure of Destiny
Grim Lavamancer
Goyf
and perhaps Wooly Thoctor.
Add that to Bolt, Magma Jet, Chain Lightning, Lightning Helix, and Fireblast, and you have a three color Zoo list with no clear drop between good cards and substantially weaker cards. There are more than enough good creatures and burn spells for a sixty card deck.
The real question about 3-Color Zoo is whether Wild Necatl, Wooly Thoctor, and Lightning Helix make this deck better than Goyf Sligh.
Explain to me how exactly a Figure will break through a Tarmogoyf? It won't, and if your opponent allows himself to be beaten by an 8/8 flyer that costs 11 to generate then they deserve to lose. In legacy by turn 3 (the first turn Figure can be a 4/4) Goyf will already be a 4/5. Figure is a fine card, but it is still a one drop, and as far as a 1 drops go, a 3/3 with no drawbacks and only (G) as a mana investment seems much much better. 5 Mana for a 4/4 in legacy is bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryTroll
By turn three, Goyf won't always be a 4/5; a reasonable amount of the time he will be a 3/4. More importantly, a 2/2 for R+R is reasonable, although clearly not as strong as a 3/3 Wild Necatl for G. However, Figure's ability to upgrade as the game goes on makes him pretty strong. True, you don't spend 5 mana in the first three turns to make him only a 4/4, but he does have to be killed by a control deck before the game goes too long. Your one drop can kill an oponent that doesn't deal with him pretty easily.
Figure is underpowered on turn one compared to the rest of the deck, but the best topdeck when you have no cards in hand (unless your opponent is at 3 or 4 life, obviously). He can break through a Goyf stall if your opponents deal with the rest of your threats by building up to super size over a few turns while you build up more cards in hand.
After testing against Goyf Sligh with Figure of Destiny, I know that you need to Sword it (preferably after they sink 5 or so mana into it), because it outclasses all of your threats in the long game, while beating effectively early on.
Figure might not compare to Wild Necatl early on, but he is better than Watchwolf by a fair amount (except for Chalice, but face it, Chalice for one already owns the deck. Watchwolf isn't going to make enough of a difference against that narrow situation). Late game he is better than both by a mile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryTroll
Your right, Goyf might not always be a 4/5 by turn three. However, if Figure isn't a 4/4 by turn 3 either it doesn't matter if goyf is still a 3/4. So your saying that Figure will beat a goyf later on in the game than that? Its very unlikely. Sinking 3 mana into figure to time walk yourself when a swords comes out in response is a real problem. So...basically for the most part, Figure will be a 2/2 for 2 (over two turns) . Compare that to a 2/3 ape, a 2/3 elf, and a 3/3 all of which cost one. It doesn't stack up. There are much better things to do with your mana.
Edit: The only part of the creature that outclasses those in a deck like Thresh is an 8/8 flying first striker. Good luck making it stick. The only time I would want Figure turn one over the others is against landstill.
You are right; on the first few turns Figure is not as efficient a beater as Kird Ape, Skyshround Elite, and Wild Necatl. However, in the midgame and late game, Figure is much better. You will not always win in the first few turns. Late game, after a Deed or Engineered Explosives, when you have three or four land in play, and a burn spell or two in hand, Figure is going to be a much better topdeck than any of those other one drops. Play Figure, make him a 2/2 in one turn, and then next turn he is a 4/4 and you have mana left over to burn something. The next turn, he hits for eight and you can burn for the win. If they Swords him in this situation, you are no worse off than if they had Swords any of the other small creatures in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore
Although Figure is a little bit underpowered on the first few turns compared to the other efficient creatures available, he is much better in the late game. You don't need to go balls to the wall and make him a 4/4 right away; in the early game, that's terrible. But making him a 2/2 for RR is reasonable. I don't think that there is any question that Figure of Destiny is better than Kird Ape, Skyshroud Elite, or Watchwolf, but Wild Nectle would give him a real run for the money.
You're right, against Landstill Figure is the best threat in the deck. You are also right, though, that Figure is bigger than every one of Thresh's creatures. You probably won't be able to get him though a Counterbalance, but he is a MUST SWORDS creature, in addition to Grim Lavamancer. Although big, Wild Necatl and the rest of the 2/3s for 1 really don't bother Thresh very much.
Edit to show list from last page:
For example, here is Kick's list from the last page.
I'd cut the 4 Watchwolf, 2 Berserk, and the 4 Kird Apes, to add 4 Figures of Destiny, 4 Grim Lavamancers, and 1 Fireblast, and a 21st land. Or you could make it 3 Wooly Thoctors, 3 Figures of Destiny, and cut something else to put Kird Ape or Watchwolf in as a 3-of.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Also, +4 Magma Jet, -some combination of 4 (non Fireblast) burn spells.
I think Figure of Destiny is a good card, but it presents an enormous tempo loss built in. Essentially you're still just playing a fatty (if you're using it to maximum effectiveness) with a great installation plan, but it presents an enormous tempo loss if it gets StP'd or Smothered.
I'm doubtful of Woolly Thoctar in this deck. Zoo doesn't tend to play three drops.
Thats not what I said, or atleast that is not what I meant to say. An 8/8 flyer is bigger than everything in threshold, but thats it. Zoo variants don't wan't to see late games, its bad for them. And Figure alone won't do enough. Building this deck with mid and lategame cards is a bad call in my oppinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryTroll
Grim Lavamancer is the perfect example of an Early/Mid/and Lategame threat that has to be answered. Figure is not in that league. Here, I will give you an example of a decklist and why Figure can't make it in:
4 Goyf
4 Kird Ape
4 Necatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wolly T
4 Bolt
4 Helix
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Threaten
2 Fireblast
4 Heath
4 Foothills
4 Taiga
3 savannah
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Moutain
There simply is no room. Lavamancer is this much: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> better than most, if not all late game cards, especially in a format where it can shrink Tarmogoyfs.
It is probably the first efficient 3 drop in a format with Goyf. Plus it gets around the one card this deck really hates, which is CB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
I love watching people destroy their curve so that they can bend over to counterbalance more. Look, I know the deck is supposed to be agressive, but come on... You're basically playing Goyf Sligh splash white for.... Nectl and Lightning Helix?
What makes that route better than slowing down and playing a more tempo based mid-game deck that actually has a curve so it won't auto-scoop to a resolved CounterTop game 1? No, I'm not just being Chicken Little ranting and raving about CB like everyone else on the forums.... I'm watching people cutting efficient 2 drops and 3 drops to put in more 1 drops for speed sake... Meanwhile also letting their hopes of fighting CB and Chalice at 1 fly out the window....
/ramble rant ramble ramble.
Edit: Nectl is sick though.
I seriously doubt this deck has a good game against landstill. I mean you don't even run price of progress because seriously that card wins against landstill and other control decks that run a miriad of non-basics. In other words, you'd probably get more of an satisfaction with just playing goyf sligh.
Price of progress is a metagame breaking card right now and without it your just losing matchups where you should be winning with ease.
@ Mister Agent: if you haven't played Zoo before please dont comment on the deck. Playing a burn spell that does not target creatures is terrible in Zoo. Drawing a PoP when there is a Goyf in play is awful. Every burn spell in the deck has to do something ALL the time. PoP will be effecient against probably 90% of the decks you play but Lightning Helix always acts as removal or life gain. PoP isn't all its cracked up to be, but it really depends on your meta; in mine it is fairly useless.
@ Corrupted Angel: No, you don't auto lose. They have to deal with what you have on the board and any continuing threats you draw. The matchup is very close to 50/50, it greatly depends on how fast Zoo's draw is and the skill of the player VS countertrash. The deck plays white because Lightning Helix is amazing, Watchwolf is serious fat, now Woolly Thoctor will be incredible, and (to those who are smart enough to run it) Swords to Plowshares. Zoo is a lot better than Goyf Sligh is, but that is JMOP.