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This is the decklist I took to the Dual Land Tournament
12 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Turnabout
3 Brain Freeze
4 Force of Will
3 Cunning Wish
4 Opt
4 Brainstorm
4 Impulse
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Meditate
2 Flash of Insight
I believe the only difference between my maindeck and vension mixup is
-1 Turnabout (It's in his sideboard)
+1 Thirst for Knowledge
I was thinking about versions which run Mystical Tutor instead of Flash of Insight. I personally run version of this deck with 2 Mystical Tutor and 3 Peer through Depts + 1 Words of Wisdom instead of TFK. I wanted to hear your opinion about splashing black (1 Underground Sea) and running 2 Lim Dul's Vault instead of Tutor. It's faster and has great stacking potential. TFK is rather slow, isn't it?
Splashing black for Lim Dul's Vault is a bad idea.
Splashing a color of any sort leaves the deck vulnerable to wasteland, which is very bad.
Blue/White can get away will it because it only needs the white for the turn it is going off and can work around wasteland.
Vault, like Mystical Tutor, is card disadvantage and are generally bad cards for this deck.
If you want to run Peer through Depths go for it, but I hate the fact that it can't find land before going off and that you only get to keep one of the five while comboing.
Thirst for Knowledge is slow, but it's a good turn 3 play to provide a final optimization prior to comboing the next turn. The deck runs 12 1-2 mana hand optimization spells so it doesn't really mind the higher cc of thirst. Thirst also serves a nice roll in discarding Flash of Insight as well as useless land while comboing if the three cards drawn off the thirst are all business spells.
Has Annul been considered for the sideboard? It seems that it would be good against some of the hate such as chalice of the void, arcane lab, pyrostatic pillar, rule of law, etc. It doesn't do anything about spells like boil or tsunami, but at least it could cut off some of the hosers.
Another thought: one of deck's main disadvantages is the fact that Meditate is the only card advantage spell, others are just cantrips (best cantrips, but anyway...). Splashing just 1 Underground Sea could give access to one of the best C.A. spells used in vintage 4C Control - Skeletal Scrying. Superior even to Stroke while mid-combo. Inferior to Meditate anyway, but relying only on Meditate is risky. And you only need black mana while going off, Wasteland could be worked around. My current list for reference:
Mana (19)
9 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Thawing Glaciers
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
Kill (4)
3 Brain Freeze
1 Words of Wisdom
Control (4)
4 Force of Will
Combo (12)
4 High Tide
4 Reset
4 Turnabout
Draw/Search (21)
4 Brainstorm
3 Skeletal Scrying
4 Impulse
3 Cunning Wish
4 Opt
3 Meditate
side
1 Evacuation
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
1 Brain Freeze
2 Orim’s Chant
1 Words of Wisdom
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Meditate
1 Tolarian Winds
1 Stifle
1 Rebuild
Thoughts? Comments maybe?
What happens if you don't see a fetch land by turn 4?Quote:
Splashing just 1 Underground Sea could give access to one of the best C.A. spells used in vintage 4C Control - Skeletal Scrying.
Or if your only land drop turn 1 is a fetch?
Do you grab the Sea and risk a costly wasteland smacking you?
If you don't grab the Sea you now have 3 more dead cards in your library.
Abeyance > Orim's ChantQuote:
side
2 Orim’s Chant
Drawing a card is good.
Annul is sometimes in the board as a wish target but it hasn't been tested as a 3 or 4 of to improve matchups revolving around a lot of enchantment/artifact hate.Quote:
Has Annul been considered for the sideboard?
Mostly because it would have to replace either the BEB's or Stifles as I don't believe there is room to have a sideboard with sets of all three and still have the bounce necessary in case the spells do resolve. At least Beb can destroy the red permanent after it resolves if it shows up too late to counter it (Except Goblin Piledriver)
Though I suppose that might be a metagame call. But, Beb does counter the Pillars and Boils that Non-ATS Survival decks bring in games 2 and 3.
You can't run Scrying and Flash of Insight together and I don't know if the combination of a weaker mana base and the lose of the wonder that is flash of insight are outweighed by the card drawing of scrying especially considering the low life the deck usually is at when comboing off.Quote:
Skeletal Scrying
That is true and very often annoying, but stringing together cantrips is still usually good enough to get a lethal brain freeze. Plus, Flash of Insight is card advantage when flashed backed as well as a good tool in stacking your deck.Quote:
one of deck's main disadvantages is the fact that Meditate is the only card advantage spell, others are just cantrips
Is Flash of Insight really that good?!How often do you play it from your hand? It's really good search, SLIGHT card advantage only when flashbacked. And, I suppose, you can never play it before 4th turn. Again, to discard it you are forsed to play with Thist for Knowledge, which is sub-optimal in general (too slow, you know it).
And seriously, who plays Wasteland nowadays? Random aggro decks, which are best matchup anyway? You cannot deny draw power of Skeletal Scrying, something this deck really needs. It adds a lot of consistency to the engine.
I think you're forgetting Landstill there. They have Crucible/Wasteland lock in the deck and I've heard Landstill is a pretty good deck. The worst thing that this deck could possibly face is land destruction. When I play this deck it doesn't bother me to much if someone plays an Arcane Lab or Pyrostatic Pillar because I know I can go get something to take care of that. You really can't do that with land destruction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claw_Outcast
LandstillQuote:
And seriously, who plays Wasteland nowadays?
U/G Madness
Yes, it helps beat Control and Aggro Control.Quote:
Is Flash of Insight really that good
It's golden in the mirror, where it is quiet easy for it to stack your deck.
Fairly often while setting up. I have flashed for 1 on turn 3 or 2 on turn 4 numerous times. While comboing I rarely hardcast it and dump it with thirst.Quote:
How often do you play it from your hand?
I am still not sold on the black splash for scrying, while it is a great card it doesn't offer the deck anything it doesn't already have. The black splash doesn't shore up the sideboard at all (Is there any relevant black instant that can be wished for to deal with the hate?)
But I suppose I will test it tonight.
I really don't like your manabase. Splashing 2 colors and playing thawing glaciers seems like way to many non basics.Quote:
9 Island
3 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Thawing Glaciers
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
I would have to say I am not a fan of Thawing Glaciers, it has tended to help in long games that I would already win and hurt in games where I had to go off turn 4 and that was the only land I could play.
To ask a question that's been on my mind for a bit: are there any advantages to running a sorcery-speed Solidarity (like the one Deep6er mentioned) over an instant-speed version? Besides gaining obviously good cards like Merchant Scroll, are there any other pros/cons to making the switch to sorcery? I was unable to find a decklist with a search, so if anyone has one I'd appreciate it, just to have as a reference.
EwokSlayer: great list! I'll test it out and see if I can think of any suggestions.
At sorcery-speed you get Diminishing Returns, which is huge. Geyser is also a possibility, as are Cloud of Faeries/Snap/Peregrine Drake. Theoretically you can use Tendrils for the kill. There's a lot to offer, but perhaps it merits its own thread.
Pros
Diminishing Returns, Can Hide Tide more than 4 times.
Sleight of Hand > Opt
More untap effects, Can waste a Turnabout to tap out an opponent at their EOT.
Slightly faster turn 3 wins without disruption
Merchant Scroll
Cons
More vulnerable to most hate (Chalice, Arcane Lab, Pillar; except Gaea's Blessing as sorcery speed can run Extract)
No real improvement in match up results.
Horrible Matchup against instant speed Solidarity
Forced to go off with incomplete knowledge as you can't wait for optimal time against aggro as you have to guess how much damage they can do in their turn.
For some reason the matches I have watched of sorcery speed Solidarity have taken forever to play out often going 20 minutes after the round ends. Don't really know why.
Ray D3 has been working with a sorcery speed verion of this deck, which can be found here.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH
I haven't tested/played vs either version of solidarity in quite some time, so I can't really add more to the current discussion.
First of all hi to all, u're doing a great job with the forum, I've been reading it for a lot of time but I've decided to buy a legacy deck and prolly solidarity one. I've played some casual games, not so many to be honest, and I don't see the point on glaciers yet.
It'd be fine if some solidarity experienced players adds me to msn: djinncito@gmail.com ; I also play in m-l and I've a skype account. Hope to talk to you asap, thx
EDIT: Just won a game thanks to glaciers :P
From the Solidarity Primer
Wow, I got to quote myself. I feel all specialQuote:
Thawing Glaciers
This works by pulling additional land out of your library with each untap effect you play. It is a very effective tool to keep you drawing gas while comboing. However, it is vulnerable to Wasteland and can slow the deck down considerably if drawn in multiples. It also comes into play tapped causing a loss of mana at the being of the combo. Whether this is a fair trade off for the abundance of mana it creates later in the turn is dependent on the metagame. Against control this card can allow the Solidarity player to out pace the opponent’s land drops and make resolving a Turnabout against the opponent a viable option earlier. Against decks packing Gaea’s Blessing this is a card you want to see early. Glaciers also has synergy with mid-combo Brainstorms and makes it easier to stack your deck via Flash of Insight.
I wonder if this is how Peter Rotten feels when he quotes himself?
Because that way games 2 and 3 never happen and the Sorcery Speed Solidarity player wins the match 1-0-0, and thus your opponent is forced to decide whether they wish to concede while you may still fizzle or let you exhaust the clock. Please also realize that it doesn't have to take that long as it is extremely easy to go Merchant Scroll>Cunning Wish>Brain Freeze>Go! when you need to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ewokslayer
Btw, I'm looking for goldfishing results from traditional Solidarity to compare with my results from the sorcery speed version. Please list them in a simillar fashion to the way I did in my Goldfishing section of my first post. Once again, that thread can be found here
I would do it myself, but people may consider this a conflict of interests, so any help will be greatly appreciated.
Please report honest results. Embelished results will only hurt our format.
Here, btw is my list of Pros and Cons of playing the Sorcery speed version over the instant speed version.
Pros:
*It goldfishes faster than Solidarity.
*It does not fizzle as much as Solidarity.
*It’s greater ability to tutor prevents you from ending up with all untap effects or all draw effects.
*It's greater ability to tutor gives you the ability to fight through disruption.
*It’s greater ability to tutor allows the deck to find answers (bounce spells, Force of Wills, etc.) with greater ease.
*It’s stronger draw power makes disruption less of a liability.
*It’s greater amount of untap effects makes disruption less of a liability.
*It permits you to keep one land hands providing you have enough hand refinement spells.
*If you don’t make the last land drop on the turn you start to go off, you can play it when you draw it.
*You can go off with as few as 2 lands in play.
*It doesn’t give your opponent a chance to untap, draw, and cast those few extra spells while you're going off.
*It won’t lose to random Stifles/Gaea’s Blessings.
*It doesn’t have cards that remain useless until you go off (Brain Freeze).
*It allows you to cast your bounce spells or Turnabouts at end of turn and go off with a full untap.
*It has main deck removal in the form of Snap.
*This deck can beat any sized deck by going infinite.
*The fact that it can spend great lengths of time to go off can cause the opponent to scoop without knowing if you might fizzle in order to avoid having you drain the clock and win with a 1-0-0 record.
Cons:
*Less instants means less control of the stack (It still has a lot of instants, just not as many).
*The deck Needs to resolve a High Tide to win.
*The deck has difficulty in the Solidarity mirror.
*The deck loses access to Reset.
*Snap creates a liability to creature removal.
*The deck is vulnerable to Misdirection.
*Since you go off on your turn, you usually can’t use your opponents spells to up the storm count.
*You have to predict when your opponent can kill you or drop hate.
How exactly does this happen?Quote:
*This deck can beat any sized deck by going infinite.
Go to my thread and look. It involves playing 4 High Tides and wishing for Capsize to use on the faeries for infinite mana. This happens more often than one would think, and if need be, the same trick builds up an infinite storm count after 3 High Tides.
Ray D 3, where is that thread exactly? I keep getting a broken link when trying to access it.
Or if someone wouldn't mind PMing me a list, I have yet to see what one looks like but I am intrigued.
-Orogen
Oh sorry, it was in the contest forum and is now in N&D, so the link changed. I updated it in my post, but to save you the trouble of scrolling up, hereQuote:
Originally Posted by Orogen