[Article] Unlocking Legacy: Scepter-Chant

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If you're imprinting lightning helix instead of playing it against goblins you've pretty much lost anyways

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someone might've responded to this already but you are 100% wrong. Goblins' draw has to be patently ridiculous to beat Scepter-Helix.

edit: oh, you meant imprinting it on Mox. It would depend on the rest of your hand, but this can be right.

I havn't tested this particular version, but when I played the deck in Extended I didn't really care if someone blew up my Scepter; I just played another one or showed them Exalted Angel or killed everything they played.

Not having tested this, I want to add a land, cut the Pristines for Teferis, cut Impulse, cut Stifle, add a Fact, and add more Counterspells. I might also want to maindeck outs to Needle, but I havn't decided.

Anusien: Did you ever test an eight angel sideboard package? Exalted + Lightning?

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Originally Posted by frogboy

someone might've responded to this already but you are 100% wrong. Goblins' draw has to be patently ridiculous to beat Scepter-Helix.

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as was already addressed, the context was mox, not scepter.

Starstorm seems a horrible choice, possibly falling under the danger of cool things. What's wrong with pyroclasm? It does the same thing 80% of the time, for half the mana, and the deck runs enough draw/dig/filtering to bury it when it's useless. You bring up the Goblins matchup as one of Starstorms strong point, which seems.....odd. I understand you can occasionally hit that Warchief, but the casting cost will kill you more than the instant status will save you. Hell, if you do manage to get 4 mana, you can clasm and keep 2 mana open to deal with that warchief (and I wonder what costs 2 mana in this deck?).

You even bring up ETW as a strong point for Starstorm. You say that Belcher will often generate enough tokens to win in two swings. Well without drawing one of your 5 pieces of accel (and you have to gett RR by turn 2), Starstorm will lose you those games on the draw. Clasm never will.

Basically, you have a deck that wins if it gets into the long game, and you have chosen a slow, broad, mana hungry sweeper over a slightly more narrow, but nearly twice as fast sweeper.

This seems a poor choice to me.

Yeah my bad, he was talking about imprinting it on chrome mox, not on scepter. Helix on a stick seems pretty damn good against goblins, helix on scepter doesn't seem good at all against gobos.

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Originally Posted by Nihil

Your Landstill matchup seems solid (though the 4C version should be a lot tougher).

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You're kidding, right? What exactly is he going to use to kill Landstill?

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What's wrong with pyroclasm? It does the same thing 80% of the time, for half the mana

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Pyroclasm kills zero creatures in Thresh. RR2 to kill Goblins' entire board is a v. good deal. The only real problem is that there isn't a fetchland that can get a basic Mountain and a Tundra.

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You're kidding, right? What exactly is he going to use to kill Landstill?

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Probably Pristine Angel or Scepter/Helix. I'd sideboard a Brain Freeze, too.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

You're kidding, right? What exactly is he going to use to kill Landstill?

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He was talking about UW or UWg Landstill. It's one of the few decks that actually has problems with a Scepter lock Game 1 (must have set preventive EE), and it may be tough for them Game 2 as well if he has the sense of boarding in Mage naming Grip, as I suggested.

For the kill, yeah, Angel or Scepter/Helix work equally well

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Originally Posted by frogboy

Pyroclasm kills zero creatures in Thresh. RR2 to kill Goblins' entire board is a v. good deal. The only real problem is that there isn't a fetchland that can get a basic Mountain and a Tundra.

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Clasm still kills Meddling mage and unthreshed Mongeese. Starstorm kills Mage and all Mongeese. I fail to see a huge difference in the matchup except that SS cycles. He even admits in the article that it's not exactly hot against Thresh.

I'm not saying that sweeping the board for 4 is a bad deal (although RR might be) I'm saying that sweeping the board for 1R against the most popular deck in Legacy which runs port and Waste, is a much, much, much better deal, especially when you can want to be sealing the game up when you hit 3-4 mana, not hitting the reset button.

I like the inclusion of lightning helix over fire/ice. It made me rethink my deck list a bit, and I might take out a few f/i to test it. Its more poweful than fire/ice for sure, but I worry about decreasing the number of blue cards in the deck. Your sideboard choices of abeyance and jotun grunt are creative as well.

I noticed that you seem to focus on being an combo deck than control deck. Inclusion of chrome mox and ancient tomb hint at a mindset more geared for aggro/combo than control. ie. the turn 1 scepter. Your mindset is valid and when it works its great, but many scepter chant players play the deck like a control deck with scepters cast around turn 4-5 rather than 1-2. Lightning helix is great for an aggro player's mindset for instance, its a mini exalted angel. However many players like cards like fire/ice more as its is multipurpose and useful with FOW. I think it falls to personal preference here.

However, the mana base with only 20 lands, even if you have 3 chrome mox, may not be stable. 6 fetchlands and 2 tombs worries me. You have a nice assortment of basics, but you'll routinely be doing 4-5 damage to yourself every game. The mana base seems more geared for a counterburn scepter list.

Starstorm is a great card. I'd love to include it if my manabase could handle it. But getting up to RR is going to be painful against goblins, even if it is an instant. Maybe you can add more basic mountains? Pyroclasm may be more functional here. Its castable earlier against ETW, and while a sorcery, is just as functional vs. goblins.

I personally like Academy Ruins. I use too many in my list, but I also use Engineered Explosives in place of Starstorm. Its a good card to recycle scepters and removal if you go the EE route. Its not so good late game when higher cost threats can hit, but if you can hit late game with a control deck you're already doing well.

Kevin - I thought this was a great article. It was well-written, had good content (e.g. the rules 'sidebar') and this is an awesome looking deck. I don't get all of the bile being flung your way...

Re: Pristine Angel. I'll concede that it looks like shit, because, well, it does. But I've never tested it (hell, I don't think I even own one) and thought Exalted Angel might be better (with Tomb/Chrome, turn 2 morph, turn 3 flip), if not for StP.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

You're kidding, right? What exactly is he going to use to kill Landstill?

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In my lists, I had, of all things, Urza's Rage on the board for Wish. It was surprisingly relevant; you'd have 20 power of burn spells in the deck and then a Wish for a bomby card. It was probably too cute, though.

Starstorm is also nuts because it's an instant and it cycles. Neat tricks!

Someday, people will learn how control is played.

As you yourself note, all other things being equal, it's better to just win now. You note this, and then you sort of move on without addressing it, but it's a very important point. Aside from pretending that your matchups are much better than they actually are, why would you play this deck? What edge does it give you over playing Threshold, which incidentally is going to smash your face in (unlike Landstill)? Or some other aggressive deck? Why focus on defense?

The recurring theme you'll notice in good control lists, and this is true of any format, is that they run control, not simply so they can say they're playing control, but to get to the late game. The late game is the heart and soul of a control deck. Why? Most decks aren't prepared for it. Goblins has SCG, and Threshold sometimes has Mystic Enforcer or Fledgeling Dragon, but that's about it, and compared to the bombs a good control deck wants to have at it's fingertips, like anything starting with "Decree of", these aren't that amazing. The late game is an ocean, a good control deck is a shark, and most poor mother fuckers can't even swim. A control deck that doesn't have ways to dominate the late game is a control deck that should not exist. What do you have? Pristine Angel. That's it. I would argue that your late game is worse at that point than both Threshold and Goblins'. Say whatever you want, without Scepter-Chant lock up and running and not being destroyed or countered at crucial points, you don't have anything. Which begs the question; why not play a Scepter-Chant deck that has other options in the late game, especially against decks like Threshold? Legitimately, what advantages does this deck present over Landstill or, say, Quinn?

Also, didn't there used to be some sort of rule where SCG said they wouldn't accept articles claiming positive matchups against the entire metagame of a format with vague explanations? Whatever happened to that?

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Originally Posted by IBA

Also, didn't there used to be some sort of rule where SCG said they wouldn't accept articles claiming positive matchups against the entire metagame of a format with vague explanations? Whatever happened to that?

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There were rules on article submission back when SCG used to solicit freelance work. After they made it harder to get freelance stuff posted (January), that 'article,' or whatever it was, went away.

I think it was still a rather good rule to go by.

Oh, that would explain why all SCG articles toed the line about how Flash was balanced... hrm, double-edged sword, I guess.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Oh, that would explain why all SCG articles toed the line about how Flash was balanced... hrm, double-edged sword, I guess.

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*cough*

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Originally Posted by Machinus

*cough*

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Oh, righty, my bad. I keep being surprised that they haven't banned you and continue to publish your articles, given my experience with Bleiweiss' usual methods. Although I guess you lack that certian Elgin je ne sais quoi.

Because I was curious if I was missing something, or if perhaps there was some major synergy or combo that I missed in this deck, I decided to test a few games against standard Rg Goblins. Basically, I came to the conclusion that Goblins doesn't even need to use it's LD to screw you, playing 20 lands and only 4 redsources does that well enough on its own. Seriously, did you test against Goblins without Lackey or something? Or Vial? I got Helix on a stick on turn 2 the first game (on the play) and still lost. That should tell you something about how bad this matchup is. Hooligan is incredibly bad for you, and you have way too few sources of every color to reliably cast anything without disruption, let alone when your opponent has Port and Wasteland at his disposal.

In another game I actually got Chant-Lock going, and still lost. How? Because SCG and Vial don't care about Chant. Basically this deck has no way to realistically win this matchup without getting an outrageous draw and having the Goblins player mulligan to 5, since casting Starstorm was impossible every time I drew it. Seriously, 20 lands and 4 red sources? Not one of them basics? Chrome Mox was spectacularly bad as well, because it's a very easy two for one, and I never wanted to imprint a draw spell that might've given me actual business.

Maybe your other matchups are as good as you claim they are, but it's pretty clear to me that your testing was badly faulty in some form or another against Goblins.

next person who doesn't count mox as a mana source gets slapped. seriously. and this is coming from the guy who thinks everyone not playing threshold should add at least one land to their deck.

hint: if you're trying really hard to chantlock Goblins you're playing it wrong, because you would way rather put Helix on a stick. Use Chant to Time Walk.

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I got Helix on a stick on turn 2 the first game (on the play) and still lost.

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yeah this is why I think more permission is necessary. (assuming you slammed it into Tin-Street)

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Originally Posted by Kadaj

Because I was curious if I was missing something, or if perhaps there was some major synergy or combo that I missed in this deck, I decided to test a few games against standard Rg Goblins. Basically, I came to the conclusion that Goblins doesn't even need to use it's LD to screw you, playing 20 lands and only 4 redsources does that well enough on its own. Seriously, did you test against Goblins without Lackey or something? Or Vial? I got Helix on a stick on turn 2 the first game (on the play) and still lost. That should tell you something about how bad this matchup is. Hooligan is incredibly bad for you, and you have way too few sources of every color to reliably cast anything without disruption, let alone when your opponent has Port and Wasteland at his disposal.

In another game I actually got Chant-Lock going, and still lost. How? Because SCG and Vial don't care about Chant. Basically this deck has no way to realistically win this matchup without getting an outrageous draw and having the Goblins player mulligan to 5, since casting Starstorm was impossible every time I drew it. Seriously, 20 lands and 4 red sources? Not one of them basics? Chrome Mox was spectacularly bad as well, because it's a very easy two for one, and I never wanted to imprint a draw spell that might've given me actual business.

Maybe your other matchups are as good as you claim they are, but it's pretty clear to me that your testing was badly faulty in some form or another against Goblins.

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No offense, but is it more possible that you don't know how to play or mulligan the deck? If you get Chant lock going and can't close, something is going wrong. It's possible that it would have been MORE advantageous to go to Helix lock as well, but SCG out of Vial came up a few times in testing but never did enough. If you can't beat a bunch of shocks, you're playing the deck wrong. If you're not imprinting aggressively enough on Mox, that might also be an issue. After all, if you can imprint Impulse on Chrome Mox and keep fetchlands open for Starstorm, that's one way to win.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

No offense, but is it more possible that you don't know how to play or mulligan the deck? If you get Chant lock going and can't close, something is going wrong. It's possible that it would have been MORE advantageous to go to Helix lock as well, but SCG out of Vial came up a few times in testing but never did enough. If you can't beat a bunch of shocks, you're playing the deck wrong. If you're not imprinting aggressively enough on Mox, that might also be an issue. After all, if you can imprint Impulse on Chrome Mox and keep fetchlands open for Starstorm, that's one way to win.

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I think your the quality of your testing and your testing methods have come under fire. Instead of blaming everyone else for not duplicating the results you've arrived at, maybe you should try to defend your testing.