Phyrexian Walker isn't a 1/3. :wink:
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Phyrexian Walker isn't a 1/3. :wink:
But you don't have to pitch a Doran or a Tarmogoyf to play him. :wink:
Vine Dryad does not belong in this deck. Like Jaynel said You would have to pitch Doran, Goyf or another Dryad to play a Dryad. I do agree that Dryad will work very well with Doran, just not in this deck...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaynel
Not that matters much, but I've been running Ohran Viper in my pre-Standard build. 3/3 deathtouch with Doran out or possible CA is pretty friggin solid.
Also the Harbinger is great. 1000 times better in Legacy as you can fetch a dual, but still working out well so far in my testing. Wall of Roots is amazing in the control version as well.
this deck is so fun
gaddock teeg over duress
I think the original decklist is very playable as it is. I would personally drop 4 Sinkholes for 4 Treefolk Harbinger and readjust the land base to allow for maximum forest-fetch abuseability.
Also, I'm not certain if Wastelands are worth the slots: they slow the deck from aggro to bad aggro-control, which is a mode that it doesn't play to the same degree of success. Sans Wasteland, we can fit in 4 more beaters, hit Doran and Goyf more consistently, and just generall use Jenny's big booty to beat their face in all that much more effeciently. But what to put in for the Wastelands?
EDIT:
Gaddock Teeg is great in this deck, but is in no way MD material over Duress. But at least 3 Teeg in SB.
First off I would like to say keep up the feedback!
The Sinkholes are great; it gives your opponent something else to think about, same with the Wastelands. Running just beaters and discard is not enough. I love the interaction between sinkhole and Wasteland, with all of the short land counts being run now days; it punishes you opponent for their build. Treefolk Harbinger will be replacing Onithopter in the main, the ability to search for a Land or A Doran is to great to pass up. Onithopter works well with Doran, but I think the Harbinger is a better fit.
This is what Im using right now (MWS), its pretty close to the original except for a couple of things
4 Duress/Gaddock teeg
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Treefolk Harbringer
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Onithopter
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Savannah
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
Birdsreally helpful for tun 2 Doran/more disruption
Tree Manthis deck relies needs to have Doran to win, and 3 isn't enough
This is what Im using right now (MWS), its pretty close to the original except for a couple of things
4 Duress/Gaddock teeg
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sinkhole
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Treefolk Harbringer
3 Doran, the Siege Tower
2 Onithopter
4 Bayou
4 Scrubland
4 Savannah
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Windswept Heath
Birds really helpful for tun 2 Doran/more disruption
Tree Man this deck relies needs to have Doran to win, and 3 isn't enough
EDIT oops sorry for the double post
I am glad to see this list getting some testing. Gaddock is not needed in the main board, he is a great SB card. The walkers and Onithopters are nice, I really don't like dead cards though, if Doran Gets killed or Exterpated what do you do. I think Doran's real roll is just to be a 5/5 beater you can drop on turn 3. Keep testing though and lnk what ya think.Quote:
Originally Posted by DURESSyou92
If Doran gets extirtpated (not played much) then you just hope to get a tarmogyf. Thats also why you have all the disruption; to prevent that from happening and to get time to play Doran.The deck does still need work.
Actaully Extirpate from what Ive seen gets a lot of play. If doesnt where ever you are it should. Its a great way to get rid of force of wills once your oppenets used them, get rid of goyfs after dealing with their first ones. With this deck getting rid of Doran gets rid of a really good win condition. I would always play Extirpate in any black deck main or side board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boris13
Thank you Joe, I was just about to say that, extirpate is heavley played. It is an amazing card, if you don't see that then I don't know...
Joe with the New Build I have made, Doran is just another beater. You can drop him turn 3 and just go to town. He is great at taking the STP so you Tarmogoyf can get through too. By not playing the :0: drop Walker and Onithopter you maximize you beaters. If you do play the :0: drops they are stuck on blocking detail until you Resolve Doran.
An issue is that green, black, and white have a lot to offer in terms of utility cards in the form of disruption and removal. If you're going to play WGB aggro-control, there's honestly no real need for any sort of combo. It takes a horde otherwise relatively useless critters to significantly improve Doran as a clock anyway.
Critters:
Tarmogoyf
Doran, The Seige Tower
Gaddok Teeg
Dark Confidant
Glowrider/Mangara of Koronder/Hypnotic Specter/Nimble Mongoose...
Control/Disruption
Thoughtseize
Duress
Pernicious Deed
Vindicate
Krosan Grip
The combo side of things isn't really that bad, but it seems like a bit of a stretch to run it with black/white/green.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
Thank you For repeating what I said...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacearuse
Gaddok Teeg will be a board card in this deck. He stops Damnation/Wrath, FTK and Combo/ Control cards like ETW, Belcher, and FOF. Other than that he is a 2/2 for :g::w: . You can do so much better in that slot.
so you guys are saying take out he walkers and the ornihpoters and put in more beaters
which ones?
Wow I'm glad I found this thread...I have been testing a very similar deck on mws for awhile now. It started as homebrew but I guess people have been working on roughly the same thing for a bit now...o well :)
Anyways, I never used thopters or walkers, they both are useless without doran...maybe I just dont understand why they are run. IMO, this deck works because it combines great cross-color disruption with the most efficient beaters.
Watchwolf - While wolf has zero synergy with doran, he is still a 3/3 beater for 2 mana and follows the theme of the deck. (Goyf, Doran, and Wolf make a pretty impressive ground force for very little mana)
Descendant of Kiyomaro - OK, so the double while mana does hurt, maybe too much to run him. However, I have had great success with this guy (running 2 or 3). My build opts for more discard and less mana disruption, and the descendant is almost always a 3/5 once he hits the board. The lifegain combine with a huge 5 toughness makes him a headache for alot of aggro decks. Lastly, he has great synergy with Doran, turning him into a 5/5, semi-lifelink for 3 mana.
Birds of Paradise - A must have 4 of IMO. He fixes mana, accelerates (allows for turn 2 Doran) and can fly over and ping for 1 with a Doran in play.
Oblivion Ring - Honestly, I havn't found deed to be very useful. Maybe I'm not drawing it enough, maybe it just doesnt fit. ORing can fill in for some extra vindicates (it cant hit lands which is huge) but keep in mind it does count as an enchantment for the goyf. Still, probably not good enough to make the cut.
Dark Confidant - IMO, doesn't belong. Although my build lacks much draw, he doesnt work well with Doran (1/1 isnt too hot...). In addition, I find the deck works because yur huge, undercosted threats can swing into critters - you dont need much removal to get damage through. This makes bob alot worse, because he has trouble getting damage through all by himself.
Gaddok Teeg - Must be in SB... hes too narrow and not large enough for the MD
Thats about all my thoughts for critters i guess. Just for reference my battery of removal/disruption looks something like this:
4 Gerrard's Verdict
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Vindicate
3-4 StP
Thoughts?
Ok there has been a lot of discussion about Doran, how to play him, what creature work well with him and what type of deck he belongs in. I have put together a great B/W/G Zoo list that combines several low cc beaters with the power of Duress and Thoughtseize. This list plays a bit like dead guy but is able to win a lot faster. It runs a shabby manabase; it can support a lot less land due to the low cc of all the creatures and the fact that it plays Aether Vial. Here is the List:
4 x Tarmogoyf
4 x Carnophage
4 x Dark Confidant
3 x Doran, the Siege Tower
3 x Spectral Lynx
1 x Treefolk Harbinger
4 x Thoughtseize
4 x Duress
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Aether Vial
3 x Umezawa’s Jitte
2 x Vindicate
4 x Bayou
4 x Scrubland
2 x Savannah
4 x Windswept Heath
2 x Bloodstained Mire
2 x Swamp
1 x Forest
1 x Volrath’s Stronghold
Tarmogoyf: Do I really have to explain this one. Goyf gets big early due to the Discard in the MB, plus Fetch Lands. Nuff Said…
Dark Confidant: Its Bob people, this guy is invaluable in almost any black deck. With nothing costing more that 3 the loss of life is minimal. Bob is the only card draw in this deck and creates some good card advantage.
Doran, the Siege Tower: I just love this creature, not because he likes big butts or because he makes all of my old school walls playable. He is a HOUSE, a 5/5 creature for :w::b::g: seems good. To me he has two draw backs; one he is three colors, the other is you gain no life when he gets STP’ed. Vial makes him easier to cast and if you manage to cast him on turn three…well we can see where that is going to go.
Spectral Lynx: This slot was originallyoccupied by Anurid Brushhopper, both the Hopper and the Lynx are a bitch to kill I felt that the Lynx was a better fit. Pro Green and :b: to regenerate makes this creature a force to be dealt with. Lynx blocks green fatties all day long and lives to tell about it!! That’s right Tarmogoyf I’m talking about you!!!
Treefolk Harbinger: Harbinger is really just a 4th copy of Doran or a fetch land. A 0/3 is really not something to be proud of unless Doran is on the Table making him a 3/3.
Carnophage: This slot is up for grabs, I really like the phage but he is really underperforming as a beater. Skyshroud Elite will probably be occupying this slot very soon .
Thoughtseize & Duress: Move over Duress and Therapy you have theses a no spell in town, its Thoughtseize. I really can’t wait to abuse this card in legacy. :b: and two life to make target player discard a non-land card, ok! Throw in the old school duress and we have the ability to pick apart any hand.
Aether Vial: With 19 creatures in this deck Vial is a great fit. You can drop it early and let Vial do its thing while you still card your Duress’s & Thoughtseize’s. Vial works great with the Jitte too, drop my dude with Vial, equip Jitte, go!
Swords to Plowshares: The staple removal spell for any white deck. Playing 4 makes it even better, clears the way for you dudes to get it there.
Umezawa’s Jitte: its Jitte people, I’ve already said too much!
Vindicate: Vindicate is the do it all removal spell, got a land that is being a bitch, how about an enchantment that is causing you problems or a creature that is in the way. Who ya gonna call, Vindicate that’s who!!
Mana Base: The land count in this deck is 20, six Fetch Lands help get the three colors you need. The first build of this deck included wasteland, I found it to be sub par in this deck.
I think your deck has a lot of potential.
I like all in your list but 4 carnophage and the three anurid brushopper.
I really think 3 jotun grunt have to be somewhere in the deck
it helps against threshold and ichorid.
I think carnophage is not playable in legacy because of threshold.
Carnophage dies to nimble mongoose and to tarmogoyf.
And your deck can t kill threshold before they creatures become bigger than yours.
If you really want a good one drop i think mother of the rune is.
It blocks and protect all your creatures and against combo it protect gaddock (which should be at least a three of in sb).
So you have to play creatures that can trade at least with theirs.
Jotun grunt can...
Maybe quirion dryad can be tested.
An other option i think is unearth.
I think this card has a lot of potential in this kinda of deck.
It can reanimate all your creatures for one mana .
But i dont think i ll play it as four of maybe a three of or two of.
(you don t want to see it at the beginning of the game).
Good luck!!
The deck looks decent, except for Carnophage. You could run Isamaru or Skyshroud Elite instead.
@adrieng: I don't think that Jotun Grunt belongs to the deck. It just weakens your Tarmogoyf and doesn't do much against Ichorid.