[Deck] Goyf Sligh

A few observations...

Dark Confidant keeps the good stuff coming, and is in my opinion worth a light splash. I'd probably replace Quirion Dryad with him.

Mishra's Bauble seems an auto-include. Bigger Goyfs, Opt effect with fetch lands. Lotus Petals are also an option. Baubles make either Grim Lavamancer or Nimble Mongoose decent. I'd consider Lotus Petal if I ran Confidant, probably not otherwise.

My current version is

4 Kird Ape
4 Mogg Fanatic
2 Grim Lavamancer*
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Seal of Fire
4 Chain Lightning
4 Fireblast

4 Lotus Petal
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Urza's Bauble*

4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
4 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Mountain

*questionable slots

- Just 1 basic mountain. With only 4 spells of each, Lotus petals are enough to get around annoying Wastelands/Extirpates. All red spells apart from 'Blast cost 1.
- Flipping Fireblasts over is rarely a problem. Having it tends to put my opponent far enough in the red zone that they have more important things to do than applying pressure themselves.
- Nimble Mongoose is possible in the place of 'Mancer. It's either stellar or terrible; I prefer the more dependable Lavamancer. If you run Mongoose, Fireblast is an excellent tool for reaching Thresh.
- If nothing else, goose is a reason not to run 3-mana stuff. It's a 'late game' beater that allows you to cast the rest of your hand on turn 3-4.

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Originally Posted by bigredmeanie

hey so, would this be better with Wasteland, Port and Tangle Wire? A certain deck that ran those cards in extended was around forever.

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That's another deck altogether. Sligh just goes for the throat, no need for LD/tapping shenigans.

I was enamored of splashing for Dark Confidant as well the moment it was revealed. However, its lack of ability to put actual pressure really dampers the gameplan of the deck. I don't think it's a good fit for a deck that aims to win quickly.

As for Nimble Mongoose, it's not a good creature here. You don't want to recklessly empty your hand just to reach threshold, and if you don't, Kird Ape would be better in the slot than Mongoose.

EDIT: And no, you don't need Baubles to make Grimmie decent.

EDIT2: Now the deck's in DTB?! Suh-weet... You guys are making me miss Legacy even more... LOL.. :tongue:

What makes Seal of Fire better than Tarfire? Tarfire is more of a surprise and pumps Goyf more than Seal (although you probably already have an instant in the yard). Furthermore, it seems much more likely that your opponent will have an enchantment in the yard vs. a tribal card. Their is also a slim chance that your opponent could Grip your Seal, which would obviously suck.

So looking at the current builds of this deck, is Lava Dart really necessary? I am running Dryad but don't really see Lava Dart being all that impressive? I understand that it adds 2 counters to the Dryad but is that really a good enough reason to run Dart? I would rather run a better burn spell in this slot. Here is the current list I am testing for the TMLO:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Kird Ape

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 Tarfire
3 Seal of Fire
3 Fireblast
1 Pyrite Spellbomb

4 Taiga
5 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:
4 Pyroblast
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Scald
3 Price of Progress
2 Krosan Grip

wait, is this a deck I should really be watching?

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Originally Posted by Skinny Oprah

wait, is this a deck I should really be watching?

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Well, that is really for you to decide. What this forum can tell you is that versions of this deck have placed in the T8 at least 3 times in the past 10 six-or-more rounds tournaments across the world.

I personally can recommend at least paying attention to the deck since besides those placements, JP and I both piloted the deck to a T8 finish at a smaller Mass tourney. I think that Goyf helps a bit and the meta is ripe for a good "Little Man + Burn deck." I doubt the deck will ever achieve DTB status - it is too easy to hate, but, for now, I think ppl should pay attention to it.

@ avoiding Dart and playing Rift Bolt or Lava Spike in place: Well, first Spike. My burn MUST be flexible. I need it to target both critters or players. I hate to be forced to toss the burn at the opponent. Rift has a similar problem in so much as to cast it cost effectively, I must "cast" it a turn later and during my upkeep. Of course both cards deal more damage than Dart, but neither is close to as flexible. Plus, a turn 3 Rift is rather crappy with Dryad. I get a choice of paying :2::r: on turn three just to make my Dryad 2/2 or paying :r: to not pump my Dryad that turn. A turn 1 Rift also sucks with Dryad.

@ Seal vs. Tarfire. I'm not really sold either way. Sometimes I like "investing" my mana early to use the 2 damage later. The Tribal vs. Instant debate may be moot since your opponent will probably have neither in his yard. Would a 2/2 split be worth exploring?

I found that list very interesting due to the inclusion of LftL.

Wasteland + Loam is pretty techy and so are recurring Factories. Pumping Kudzus with Fetchlands over and over again seems to be nice, too.

I'm just asking myself if Wild Mongrel has a place in this kind of deck. Loam + Mongrel provides you with another fat beater and the synergy of Mongrel + Tarmogoyf can't be denied. But the main question is: What to cut?

I also think that Dark Confidant could be very useful in this deck. What happens if you can't burn out your opponent before you're in topdeck mod in the R/G version? You lose, most often.
The black splash is certainly interesting, however, it does mess with your mana base and make you very vulnerable to wasteland. So yeah. It's probably worth testing.

@The LFTL List: Doesn't it seem a little weak if you dont have an LFTL in your hand?

@Sacearuse: Rift Bolt is certainly an odd and original inclusion. It's an aweful topdeck though, and probably shouldn't be a 4-of.

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Originally Posted by paps

@Sacearuse: Rift Bolt is certainly an odd and original inclusion. It's an aweful topdeck though, and probably shouldn't be a 4-of.

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Actually rift bolt is a carryover from my burn build. I forgot how bad Rift bolt interacted with Dryad and I will be replacing it with something else. Will prob add in a 4th Tarfire and add 3 x Price of Progress in the main, this will free up 3 spots in the SB and allow me to run Needle in the board.

I have tried a different approach to the blue splash. Stifle+Wasteland+Daze is currently the most cost-effective LD package a deck can run, so, assuming you can make the manabase work, it would be an awesome addition to an aggro deck.

I also added Brainstorm, partly to help the shaky manabase and the topdeck mode, but mostly because (along with Bolt and Lavamancer activations) it allowed me to keep Stifle mana open and still do not lose tempo if it didn't get a target.

And no, I don't think finding room for 4 Forces of Will would be a good idea. It is critical to be able to burn an opponent out from a fairly high life total.

// Lands
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
4 [TE] Wasteland
2 [UNH] Mountain
4 [PR] Taiga
4 [PR] Volcanic Island

// Creatures
4 [10E] Mogg Fanatic
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [PS] Quirion Dryad
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf

// Spells
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [PR] Lightning Bolt
1 [FD] Magma Jet
3 [VI] Fireblast
4 [SC] Stifle
4 [PR] Brainstorm
4 [NE] Daze

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
SB: 3 [EX] Price of Progress
SB: 4 [TSP] Krosan Grip

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Originally Posted by Sacearuse

is Lava Dart really necessary?

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I never really liked Lava Dart myself. The deck's running just the right number of lands (18) that Lava Dart and Fireblast can't coexist. And I'd choose Fireblast over Lava Dart anyday. You should also probably cut Kird Apes for Fanatics, since they're more useful nowadyas than Ape (sad but true).

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Originally Posted by Barook

Wasteland + Loam is pretty techy and so are recurring Factories. Pumping Kudzus with Fetchlands over and over again seems to be nice, too.

I'm just asking myself if Wild Mongrel has a place in this kind of deck. Loam + Mongrel provides you with another fat beater and the synergy of Mongrel + Tarmogoyf can't be denied. But the main question is: What to cut?

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That would be another deck altogether - that would be AggroLoam. People, Taigas + Tarmogoyfs + Lightning Bolts != Sligh. It's the deck concept, not just the cards that are in it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paps

I also think that Dark Confidant could be very useful in this deck. What happens if you can't burn out your opponent before you're in topdeck mod in the R/G version? You lose, most often.

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That happens to you? Really? R/G already has enough power and speed in creatures and burn that "running out of gas" rarely happens. That's the whole point of playing Sligh over Burn in the first place. And as I mentioned in a post 22, Dark Confidant makes the deck sit back with Bob and wait for the card draws instead of attacking. That's bad.

Any reason why everyone is playing only 16 creatures now? If I would run an 18land/16creature/26burn build, my burn spells would be:

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Seal of Fire
3 Tarfire
4 Incinerate
4 Magma Jet
3 Fireblast

Versatility over power. You get a lot of power from your creatures anyway.

@ Nihil...:confused:

WTF is that? You do know this is the Goyf Sligh thread right? That deck would lose to most of the meta w/ wasteland alone. The whole point of Sligh is to Beat your opponents face with big, cost effective creatures while pointing the best burn spells red has to offer at there face!!! Adding a thrid color will destroy the mana base and slow the deck down. The Stifle's and Daze's are nice, but the totally counteract what this deck is trying to do. Brainstorm is the best draw card Legacy has to offer, it dosn't belong in this deck. If you want to play the list you posted then just play R/U/G Thresh or Grow.

@kicks: No, not often. But it does happen occasionally...I just run out of steam and can't win. Especially if major burn gets countered twice in a row. Then again, if they can counter burn, they can counter Bob...meh.

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Originally Posted by Sacearuse

[COLOR=black]

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Kird Ape

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 Tarfire
3 Seal of Fire
3 Fireblast
1 Pyrite Spellbomb

4 Taiga
5 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

SB:
4 Pyroblast
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Scald
3 Price of Progress
2 Krosan Grip

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The only cards that I'm not a fan of currently in your build is Rift Bolt and Lava Spike. I believe you want to have instants in your hand to have an element of surprise and the ability to pump your dryad, goyf, and food for the lavamancer. I know that some of the alternatives don't do as much damage as rift bolt and lava spike, but I believe in the long run its a lot better strategy in this type of deck.

I also don't like the 1 basic forest that you are running in the deck. There is no need for it since your running 8 fetches and 4 taigas in the deck. I do like the spellbombs since they are colorless damage and a 1 drop.

I think this deck has a lot of potential b/c it puts your opponents on a very quick clock which a lot of decks can't deal with. I would like to see Seal Of Primordium in the board along with a couple of krosan grips as sometimes 3 mana can to tough to always have with this deck.

Looks very interesting and hope to see this deck at The Mana Leak Open.

Lava Spike is ass.

Rift Bolt is better, but still subpar.

I like Seal of Fire a little better than Tarfire because you can drop it whenever you happen to have a mana left over and then use it later on "for free." However, it might be worth trying out a 2/2 split as PR suggested. I don't think you want to run more than 4 "shocks" in this deck, though.

I still say basic Forest is terrible, although I can see why you might want one if you're playing 8 green creatures. I just happen to know from experience that it really sucks when you have the winning Fireblast in hand and 2 lands in play, but one of them is a basic Forest.

Also, I want to repeat this for emphasis. It's important. Lava Dart and Fireblast don't play nice together in a deck with 18 lands.

Btw, I actually prefer 19 lands.

What's your current build, Volt? Are you still (loosely) sticking to the 20/20/20 split?

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

What's your current build, Volt? Are you still (loosely) sticking to the 20/20/20 split?

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Yeah, pretty close. My current build is in post #14 of this thread. The only change is that I'm trying out 2x Reckless Charge in place of the 2x Brute Force.

Let me repeat:

Krosan Grip – You must have a way to deal CounterTop and Jitte. I’d run Naturlize but it doesn’t have Split Second, now does it?

You must have a reliable way to deal with CounterTop which pwns this deck. Yes, three mana is on occasion tough to achieve, but what other Spilt Second Disenchants exist?

@ the single Forest. Having your 2nd turn Taiga wasted sucks - especially if you don't have a 3rd land. Often I found the deck playing like this against decks packing Wastelands.

Turn 1, Mountain, cast Little Man or Seal
Turn 2, Sac Land --> Forest, cast :1::g: man
Turn 3, land, cast :r: burn spell and :1::r: burn spell (like Jet or Incinerate)

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Originally Posted by Peter_Rotten

Let me repeat:

Krosan Grip – You must have a way to deal CounterTop and Jitte. I’d run Naturlize but it doesn’t have Split Second, now does it?

You must have a reliable way to deal with CounterTop which pwns this deck. Yes, three mana is on occasion tough to achieve, but what other Spilt Second Disenchants exist?

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Have you considered seal of primordium? You can drop it before they set up counter/top and it fits your manabase a little more effectively. I think krosan grip is the stronger option but if getting to 3 mana seems like it would be hard then you might want to consider it.

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

Have you considered seal of primordium? You can drop it before they set up counter/top and it fits your manabase a little more effectively.

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But it also can be Dazed or FoWed. If I play around Daze, then I'm casting Seal third turn - the same turn I would possibly be casting Grip. Top Decked Seal also sucks against CounterTop. I am yet to be satisfied with any other options :frown:.