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Has anyone been testing RANCOR?
I've been using it for the last year and I find it very effective. Rancor was my psudo berserks, since I cant afford them. You almost always have one extra mana, expecially late game. I've found it very useful on ornithopters and atogs and ravagers.
Its especially good in the combo matchup's. I've had double rancor on disiple and won games.
I'd like to see what everyone else thinks
I used to play Rancor in green affinity cause I only owned one Berserk. Its quite usefull. The fact that Disciples and Workers become threats is huge. A Ravager or Atog with Trample just wins games.
Ive found the most success in R/B Affinity. With vials and chrome moxes, heavy black splash with maindeck Therapies. W/U/B Affinity playing Meddling Mages is way better against combo though.
Back when I was playing Berserk, there were often times when I wanted them to be Rancors instead...
With that said, I think Affinity should keep colored cards as creatures only. If say you run three colors, with 18 lands, your color-enablers/fixers would look like this:
4 of each colored land = 12
4 Citadels/Nexi
2 Glimmervoid
4 Chromatic Star
4 Vial
That would be 14 ways to play a colored creature (e.g. Atog; 4 Furnaces, 2 Glimmervoids, 4 Stars, 4 Vial). Running non-creature colored cards (e.g. Rancor) would mean you only have 10 ways to play it, which I'm not comfortable with, and 4 of those 10 ways are one-shot deals (Stars), so if Rancor gets back to your hand, you'll be needing to draw another source of green to play it.
I hope I'm getting through with what I'm explaining... :rolleyes:
Here is my teams current build of affinity.
land 16
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Glimmervoid
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
spells 17
3 Chrome Mox
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
4 Cranial Plating
creatures 27
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Dark Confidant
3 Atog
SB 15
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Defense Grid
3 Engineered Plague
3 Shattering Spree
3 Chrome Mox in a build that plays only 11 colored cards, all of which I'd rather see in play than imprinted?... How has that been going for you? I'm also a bit uncomfortable running only 16 lands... has it proven to be enough?
16 lands in itself shouldn't be a problem, but in that case I want each and every one to be an artifact. I like
16 Artifact lands
4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
2 Paradise Mantle
Manlands give a dubious benefit in the long game (often it's more efficient to sacrifice excess land to fuel an Atog or Ravager anyway) at the price of explosiveness - not good.
Glimmervoid doesn't cut it for similar reasons: if you run a tight mana base, you really need all your lands to pull double duty by increasing your artifact count. As 'half' a mana soruce, I far prefer Paradise Mantle. If you don't run more than 2, that increases both consistency and the chance for a ridiculous start.
Fling vs Shrapnel Blast is a tough decision. Both have positive and negative aspects: Blast is much safer but is also one mana more. Fling is more dangerous but gives a greater pay-off: Fling allows you to kill someone at
20+ life in one shot. If yor're worried about counterspells, Blast is probably better. If your more of a gambler, Fling can be a game-winner regardless of life-totals.
Not having a way to deal with enchantments can hurt, but I wouldn't cut U for naturalize. Thougtcast allows you to refill your hand and keep Myr Enforcers. Plus, U can help your sideboard in Goblin heavy metagames with BEB/Hydroblasts. As for Jitte-4 mana to cast and equip seems like alot in a deck that runs as few lands as possible. How many are you running?Quote:
I run a Confidant build, BRg, with green for sideboard Naturalizes. I also think lack of removal hurts the deck some, so I add in a full playset of Jittes.
I've found Myr Enforcer to be irreplacable against Aggro-Control decks (especially UG Madness and UGr Gro). These decks have trouble dealing with large creatures, and trading an Enforcer with a Werebear is an extremely good deal for you, since Affinity can afford to loose a creature but Gro generally can't. Confidant is a great card, but it slows the deck down. Playing Affinity slower hurts your already poor chances against combo, assuming you don't maindeck discard or something to that affect.Quote:
I don't think that speed is the way for Affinity to go, IMHO. It gets those fast, broken starts every once in a while, but what if the deck doesn't? I do miss the big fat body of an Enforcer, but drawing more Ravager food or two disciples in a row from Confidant helps make up for that.
On Chrome Mox: with 11 things to imprint, isn't Mox played as a 0 artifact that does nothing some of the time? I'd think Lotus Petal would be better, since it is almost always useful.
I've never tried this. It looks good.Quote:
16 Artifact lands
4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
2 Paradise Mantle
Wait how is Blast one more mana?
Oops. Well, ignore the part about costing more than. I obvioulsy need to test Blast more...
I use to think Blast was bad compared to Fling now I think I'm liking Blast better after reading this thread.
There both good-I've been using Fling for awhile now, but Blast can be better in certain sitiuations. If I were going to change, I think I'd run more cheap artificats however. Iranon's suggesiotn of cutting non-artifact land for Mantles seems like a good idea if you're running Blast over Fling.
First off, here's my build:
4 Great Furnace
4 Tree of Tales
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid
3 Ornithopter
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Atog
4 Dark Confidant
4 Frogmite
4 Aether Vial
4 Chromatic Star
4 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Cranial Plating
SB
4 Naturalize
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Tormod's Crypt
4 Winter Orb
Just to throw it out, this combines the two most hated cards in recent Standard formats (Ravager and Jitte)... I feel mean whenever I whip this out to play... :tongue:
Refilling my hand wouldn't do any good if say they get a Confinement lock, a Moat, Energy Flux, etc. They're pretty random, but I wouldn't want to face them and have no answer for them.Quote:
Not having a way to deal with enchantments can hurt, but I wouldn't cut U for naturalize. Thougtcast allows you to refill your hand and keep Myr Enforcers. Plus, U can help your sideboard in Goblin heavy metagames with BEB/Hydroblasts. As for Jitte-4 mana to cast and equip seems like alot in a deck that runs as few lands as possible. How many are you running?
I've also really been doing good against Goblins, save the occasional nutz draw. Jitte actually is a pretty good card, making every creature in the deck threats, which is especially good as most are rather flimsy (Disciple, Worker, and to a lesser extent Frogmite). I'd gladly pay a 4 mana investment over the course of two turns to get an active Jitte. It just wins games.
Of course I thought of that... But aren't Atogs, Ravagers, and anything equipped with an active Jitte big enough (even bigger)? For combo MUs, I board out the Jittes and replace them with 4 Pyrostatic Pillars, them mull aggressively for them... Though I'm thinking of replacing the Winter Orbs in the SB for Therapies for more hate, as I don'r see much control anymore save Landstill.Quote:
I've found Myr Enforcer to be irreplacable against Aggro-Control decks (especially UG Madness and UGr Gro). These decks have trouble dealing with large creatures, and trading an Enforcer with a Werebear is an extremely good deal for you, since Affinity can afford to loose a creature but Gro generally can't. Confidant is a great card, but it slows the deck down. Playing Affinity slower hurts your already poor chances against combo, assuming you don't maindeck discard or something to that affect.
The combo match-up is generally poor for any straight aggro deck, so why even try to race them by going for speed? I'd stick to playing the best cards available, making my aggro and control MU's much better, then devote 4-8 slots of my SB to combo... That's the point of SB's right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
16 Lands is more than enough. If your playing more than that your missing the point. Your curve is actually lower than Thresholds and you dont have Fetches that thin land out of the deck, you just draw into them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xero
4 Non Artifact lands is fine. Glimmervoid is amazing with Plating and works out nicely with Chromatic Star to provide 6 sources of rainbow mana. 6 is enough for a two color build. Blinkmoth Nexus is irreplaceable. It flys, it dodges wrath, its a great modular target. Its easier to play in a two color build, another benifit of B/R affinity.
3 Chrome Mox is a push the deck has had since I played it last year in extended. You cant rely on vial to speed you up every game, and the only card in my build with 'affinity' is Frogmite. So my busted starts are usually including Chrome Mox in some manner. I would absolutely imprint Disciple to play a turn one Dark Confidant. Chrome Mox helps you drop your land count lower and mull to more aggresive hands. I know there are only 11 cards to imprint pre sideboard but you shouldnt be playing many more than that anyways or else you risk weakening the artifact combo. I know it seems bad to imprint those colored cards because theyre so good but that tempo boost goes a long way. Not to mention we all know what happens when affinity gets double black mana for plating. Chrome Mox usually sees to that.
Mox is far better than mantle in my eyes. Mantle does nothing on its own ever but give you +1 to affinity. It only accelerates you when you play it and equip it on turn one.
Enforcer is overrated. Most of you are still remembering the days of standard where he was indeed a house. Legacy has better removal, more goblins to block, and all in all Dark Confidant is SOO MUCH BETTER.
i see Fling vs. Blast as this...
Fling should be in decks that run Atog ONLY, (i'ts really not that good on a ravager, as you have to gamble even MORE). And decks that see huge ammounts of creature hate shouldn't run Atog.
That said, i run a three way Affinity. good for control, aggro, combo. Myr Enforcers for Aggro (4/4's for 0 on turn 3 are bad for aggro), Fling atog for combo, (yeah), and control i run explosive mantle version.
I must say that I love this deck. I have found it to be incredibly versatile, not rolling over to targeted removal due to the incredible powers of Ravager. Cranial Plating is so powerful compared to the rest of its cycle.
I have been running this version:
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Glimmervoid
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
3 Myr Enforcer
3 Chromatic Star
4 Cranial Plating
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtcast
3 Shrapnel Blast
The 4-ofs are almost always there in Affinity, and the 3-ofs are there because I don’t like seeing more than 1 in a game.
I have been running Shrapnel Blast for several reasons:
Chromatic Star + Shrapnel Blast = Funkyness.
Shrapnel Blast is reactive, and for the mid-game, where I can use it in response to Gempalm Incinerators or StoP
Berserk costs wayyyy too much, and I don’t like green as a color.
Fling’s picture loses to Shrapnel Blast’s any day.
The sheer speed at which this deck wins (often a whole turn before Goblins) makes it quite a good deck.
Against Goblins, I often go around 65-35 (match result has always been 2-1 my way). One game went like this:
Mountain, lackey, Go (I almost punch the guy for his smug look)
Darksteel Citadel, Vial, Go
Piledriver, swing with lackey…. I vial in an Ornithopter and block! Ha ha, you should’ve seen his face.
Anyway, the only good legacy deck I’ve played against is Goblins, because I haven’t played in major tournaments, where the other guys come. I have some questions:
How do the other matchups for Affinity go? I’ve heard that Threshold is a very easy matchup? What should I have problems with?
What should my sideboard consist of in a normal meta? Mine is diverse (I think)
What hate am I likely to see, and what should I do to play around them? I’ve heard that not many people play Affinity at all, so should I even expect it?
Are there problems with my list? I’ve found it to be ok, but can I improve?
This is a general remark:
What about using both Confidant and Thoughtcast in the same deck?
Both would help you to give you more fuel in the mid-game, which I found to be very important in keeping up the pressure.
The main problem with this (and Confidant Affinity in general) is that you have no deck manipulation, so Confidant's drawback is felt more than in decks like UWB Fish. Revealing Thoughtcast would take 25% of your life total, something you don't want to do against decks like Burn or Goblins. Since you would also be running Frogmites, that's a 2/15 chance of dealing at least 4 damage to yourself a turn. Also, Confidant is a non-artifact 2/1 creatures that dies to any sort of removal.Quote:
This is a general remark:
What about using both Confidant and Thoughtcast in the same deck?
Both would help you to give you more fuel in the mid-game, which I found to be very important in keeping up the pressure
Affinity has good-great match-ups against Aggro-Control (UG Madness, Fish, BW Homebrew, Gro, etc.), an approximately average match-up against Goblins, and a bad match-up against Combo (like Solidarity). W based control decks like Rifter can be tough too, but those decks are fairly rare.Quote:
Anyway, the only good legacy deck I’ve played against is Goblins, because I haven’t played in major tournaments, where the other guys come. I have some questions:
How do the other matchups for Affinity go? I’ve heard that Threshold is a very easy matchup? What should I have problems with?
What should my sideboard consist of in a normal meta? Mine is diverse (I think)
What hate am I likely to see, and what should I do to play around them? I’ve heard that not many people play Affinity at all, so should I even expect it?
Are there problems with my list? I’ve found it to be ok, but can I improve
Engineered Plaugue is a good sideboard card against Goblins. Pithing Needle and Tormod's Crypt are almost always useful. After that, you could run Sphere of Resitance, Cabal Therapy, and/or Duress for Combo or Hydroblast for Red based decks. The discard is a good idea if you expect hate; which is only a small possibility. Pernicious Deed is relatively common, but other than that, strong hate for Affinity (like Null Rod or Kataki) aren't really played. As for your list, I would cut 2 Glimmervoids and a Citadel for 2 Blinkmoth Nexus (especially since your running 4 Cranial Plating) and the last Enforcer.
I'd also like to point out that Affinity can be tweaked quite easily for your metagame:
A version that emphasises the combo-style kill and maximises its chances to win turn 3 can give anything a run for their money.
A full set of Meddling Mages and Cabal Therapies and possibly even more disruption in the board is a kick in the nads for anyone playing Combo combined with your still decent clock.
The suicidal draw suite of Dark Confidant + Thoughtcast can give many control players fits (however, play another deck if you expect too see a lot of people with Pernicious Deeds...)
When built with more muscle and less tricks, Affinity should be able to out-aggro anything else.
As long as nobody is packing dedicated hate, one build of Affinity or another should be viable in almost any environment.
I figure to finally post in this thread and give you my most updated lists with a brief discussion on why I want with some key cards.
Nick's Vial Affinity:
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Great Furnace
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
1 Glimmervoid
4 Aether Vial
4 Arcbound Worker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Disciple of the Vault
3 Chromatic Star
3 Thoughtcast
3 Ornithopter
3 Cranial Plating
3 Atog
2 Pithing Needle
SB
2 Winter Orb
2 Flaring Pain
3 Tormod’s Crypt
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Engineered Plague
As you read some of my posts in the past, I've been a big advocate of the Berserk Affinity list that I've run for a long time. The more I played that list, the more I felt like Berserk didn't really good that much in a lot of my matches. So I decided on cutting green and Berserk for Thoughtcast.
I'm only running 3 thoughtcast and 3 chromatic star so I can squeeze in 2 pithing needles which I love in the main deck. I've debating on cutting the needles for the other thoughtcast and chromatic tstar, but the needles are in as of this date.
The rest of the deck is pretty standard with 19 lands, as that is the right number I feel after playing with this deck for 2 years in standard and legacy.
The sideboard is a little updated to include 4 chalice and 2 winter orb as comb o as been rising in popularity around the Legacy community. I feel those are very strong sb cards. I do miss green for naturalize in the board which I was a fan of.
Let me know what you guys think. There is so many builds of affinity that did well in big events, so its hard to argue, which build is better than the other.
Ok. First off I know this is not an optimal build but I have not seen this engine discussed in any current threads.
The list:
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Glimmervoid/(testing gemstone mine)
3 Lotus Petal/(testing chrome mox)
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Disciple of the Vault
4 somber hoverguard
3 Thoughtcast
3 Ornithopter
4 Cranial Plating
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Urza's Bauble
4 Mishra's Bauble
The idea is that you can drop the baubles first few turns using the affinity build up drop a dov sac away for the damage refilling your hand. The baubles also have synergy with the cabal therapies. My testing has been limited since the bauble is new and I have only one tourney a week. Flame on!
The magic moron