Casting Ad Nauseam EOT costs you the storm from the acceleration and the storm from Ad Nauseam, it's not irrelevant, which is the reason the decks are designed to cast Ad Nauseam on your main phase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
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Casting Ad Nauseam EOT costs you the storm from the acceleration and the storm from Ad Nauseam, it's not irrelevant, which is the reason the decks are designed to cast Ad Nauseam on your main phase.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
It's obviously sub-optimal to try for AdN during your opponent's turn, when you don't have your entire arsenal at your disposal, including all your sorceries and Pact o' N. However, since resolving AdN at any reasonable size will probably win you the game on your next mainphase regardless, it would seem smart to cast it in response to certain plays your opponent might make, particularly if you have already cast a profitable duress and know that he has a good chance of finding more disruption.
Situations I can think of, off the top of my head, where casting AdN on opponent's turn could be profitable:
:1: Landstill casts Standstill or FoF
:2: VoroshStill or similar control deck casts Intuition
:3: In a post-board game, Trinisphere is cast and you are holding multiple Dark Rits which are about to become worthless, but you have some chance to draw an out from AdN
In all these cases, the point is only to cast it as an instant when the situation forces you to. In this regard I believe Ad Nauseam decks can offer a substantial advantage over IGG based storm, in that they have more options to try to force a win.
The Sickness
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Diamond
4 Pact of Negation
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Intuition
3 Tendrils of Agony
4 Ad Nauseam
So, similar to what has been discussed. I quickly ditched LED and Infernal Tutor, I'm not sure why some of you seem so set on them, they will hurt you a lot of the time when you have one and not the other. Ad Nauseam is an easy card to go broken, you don't need to add other combo requirements. This version is very simple - lots of tutoring, lots of 0 CC and Intuition. Intuition's a very solid setup card for this deck, Intuition for 3 Ad Nauseam and you've reduced the average damage of each card drawn by 0.3 (to 0.82 per card from 1.12). Intuition also seems like a reasonable choice as it's immune to Spellsnare and will often dodge Counterbalance. This lets you draw aggressively and ensures that Ad Nauseam is a win. Once you've cast Ad Nauseam then Intuition gets Tendrils along with the 3 Tendrils (and often as not you'd be able to Mystical + Brainstorm) ensuring you hit one somehow. The build is designed to comfortably go off with no spare mana after casting Ad Nauseam, even with the low CC I think this needs the storm count of casting Ad Nauseam on the turn you go off. The deck should probably run 1 Wipe Away maindeck, not sure what I'd remove for it yet and in the sideboard I'd run Volcanic Islands, Pyroblast and Daze (possibly).
Cunning Wish is a bad idea, I don't think we'd even be discussing Ad Nauseam if it cost 5BBU. The damage it does to you isn't that terrifying, if you're worried about low probability events then don't play combo. The average CC is close to 1 (or under if you cast Intuition for AdN) making Ad Nauseam better than Yawgmoth's Bargain.
Multiple Tendrils have been quite useful in my brief testing. The deck can still do a weak double Tendrils plan if necessary and often you'll be able to do a giant double Tendrils from Ad Nauseam making Stifle ineffective.
Cunning Wish: 2U
Intuition: 2U
Cunning Wish: Less damage, before you cast adn.
Intuition: "finds" your kill-spell, used after you cast adn.
I don't see much difference in the two, other than Intuition opening you up to Extirpate on you Win-Con.
Mox diamond is crap in these lists. 14 lands? Sure. 14 lands and 4 Chrome Mox? Absolutely. 14 lands, 4 Chrome Mox and 3 Mox Diamonds? No.
A Mox diamond before AdN is crap.
Pce,
--DC
@Mystical Tutor
I'm not the biggest fan of the card, but I think it works appropriately here. If you aren't going for pure speed, it's best to optimize for protection and toolbox answers while building up for the win.
@Counterbalance
It's an idea, but I think it's pushing the boundaries too far. You want to inhibit your opponent enough so that you can go off without problems, but you don't want to start sticking cards in that veer you off from your original game plan.
@LED/IT
I don't think you can ditch these. Even if they don't work synergistically with some of the cards in the deck, any combo player here can attest to the stupid brokenness that these partners in crime create on a regular basis. One thing you don't want to do is put all your eggs in one basket by removing these engines.
I'm also a fan of going toolbox with the deck, and I think Hanni's BUr deck is going in the right direction. I'm also not sure if we should cut iggy - why possibly gamble with AdN when you can just confirm a win with the loop (assuming you have the right cards, obviously)?
I agree M.Tutor is a reasonable choice because it stacks AdN for cantrip + LED. Mental Note has faired well in testing for people focusing on Threshold and Cabal Ritual, altho' it requires an IGG MD, and I'd imagine Strategic Planning would also be a possible choice.
Hit Threshold, resolve Cabal Ritual = win seems to be the best approach I've found.
Dark_Cynic87: You've missed some details in your Cunning Wish vs Intuition. Intuition is also used to find AdN and means you're effectively running 8 AdN vs 5 in a Cunning Wish build. The average CC of your AdN will be 6.5 with Intuition vs 7.4 with 4 Cunning Wish and 1 AdN. Cunning Wish adds nothing to Threshold, Intuition adds 3 cards. Cunning wish wastes sideboard space. Cunning Wish can't tutor for Tendrils so is a dead card when you go off.
Ups, I noticed you're not running any main so the average cost of getting one is 8. Your deck's not really an Ad Nauseam deck at all is it? That makes Mystical Tutors much weaker in your deck not to run even one, I don't think you've realised just how powerful Ad Nauseam is. 5 mana + 1 card and win the game. Rite of Flame is really clunky, I'm not sure why you're running it especially when you only run 2 Cabal Ritual which is a much better card. It's not worth adding red to the deck to run a bad accelerant.
Mox Diamond's run well for me and gives sufficient options for getting mana after going off. It is probably the weakest slot but it's better than you're giving it credit for, you need a high % of 0 cost mana available once you go off and it's castable before going off surprisingly often. What would you suggest in its place? 1 more land and 2 Thoughtseize or 2 Daze is tempting.
Infernal Tutor will leave you stranded when you have no LED as it can't directly tutor and you can't empty your hand when you need AdN. LED alone makes Pact useless (replacing Pact with Thoughtseize fights against the deck's most important resource). Together they're not even that good, you only need to fit 5 mana with an AdN in hand.
Everytime I resolve Ad Nauseam I feel like I'm cheating (I think it is going to be banned /shrug). After playtesting, I have to say, this is a Turn 2 deck on average. Mystical tutor is the starter to the AdN engine in this deck. AdN is a straight one-card combo.
As pointed out, this deck really wants to cast AdN during the main to guarantee resources and storm count to cast for lethal. Although, I often cast it during my draw phase from floated LED mana from my upkeep. This deck has to generate immense amounts of mana as early as possible, and after that, it doesn't matter nearly as much. AdN's hunger for mana makes it difficult to protect without watering the deck down to the point that you aren't consistently able to cast it on 1st or 2nd turn.
I've seen two options with this deck (much like Flash). You can go for speed or you can go for a disruptive combo approach. Going for speed is great because it actually dodges a lot of hate, but it of course is easy to disrupt on its own if you don't go off 1st turn. Playing some combo protection has more implications to this deck in that it not only slows the deck down, but it decreases your likelihood of drawing a game-winning stream of cards from AdN and casting AdN early enough.
Slow playing control has not been to my advantage with this deck either. Chalice and CB were game breakers once in play too. Having no defensive counters hurts this deck's attempt to play protection effectively.
I've tried:
4x Duress
4x Pact of Negation
and
4x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
1x Pact of Negation
and
1x Bayou
1x Crop Rotation
1x Boseiju
and
1x Angel's Grace
3x Orim's Chant
1x Scrubland
1x Plains
I even tried shushers and bounce in the main. I often wished I just had mana-acceleration in hand instead of these cards. So, I wanted to try a break-neck speed version of the deck, foregoing protection, and just going for the win.
Here is the deck I've arrived at so far:
Lands: 12x
1x Swamp
1x Island
4x Underground Sea
2x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
Mana Accel: 26
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
3x ESG
3x Summoner's Pact
Card Quality: 16
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
Win-Stuff: 6
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Ad Nauseam
The deck is consistent, and very fast. ESG/Pact has been fantastic. You only pact when you are casting AdN that turn anyways. The deck packs a bit less land because...I don't get to drop as many land as more disruptive versions of this deck.
I wouldn't mind losing the Ponder's for other cards so much. They can't put AdN on top of the library as effectively as Mystical and Brainstorm. A singleton Pact wasn't bad either. Street Wraith's were lackluster (even with 4x Mystical in the deck). I wish I could run Mystical's 5-8.
peace,
4eak
I don't really like Intuition because it cannot grab 1-of's. I agree that being out of Counterbalance range against Thresh decks is good, but I usually try to race CounterTop. 3cc for a tutor slows the deck down alot, which is bad against everything not CounterTop. Intuition, IMO, is better as an engine card for decks like Intuition Thresh, ITF, Tezzeret Stax, etc, and not as a single card tutor.
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Building the deck without protection makes it alot like Belcher, except I actually play 4 Red Elemental Blasts in Belcher lists that I play. Opting to go for first turn kills from more acceleration is also a good way to build ANT but you still need 4 Duress.
Of course, going for turn 1-2 kills is going to be vulnerable against FoW and/or going second against all kinds of relevant hate.
A speed build isn't necessarily a bad route though, and does warrant some discussion. If you think about it like Belcher, it's basically a better Belcher since it's no longer as dependant on EtW wins. Tendrils is alot harder to disrupt than EtW. Duress is stronger than REB, IMO, since it lets you know if you can go off or not.
I don't think ESG + Pact is how I'd want to accelerate the deck, honestly. That opens you up to FoW worse than usual now because if they Daze/FoW you're AdN, you lose the game. Quickening the clock to turn 1 kills like Belcher, you're just as vulnerable to turn 1 countermagic. ESG is 3cc, so on its own its not good for the decks curve.
I'm not sure what accelerants I would replace them with, though. I already tried 4 Rite of Flames and those were lackluster.
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I still prefer Pact of Negation though, since it enables the deck to play through countermagic like FoW, and costs 0 mana. I've had protected turn 1 kills with Pact of Negation before, though usually the deck goldfishes turn 2 with protection. The only times I cannot combo off before turn 4 with protection are against decks like MUC, which just keep hitting you with a constant stream of disruption. However, decks like that do not have a good clock so you can easily switch into control role with Duress + Pact of Negation.
The deck can run Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy in replacement for Pact of Negation, but the lifeloss of Thoughtseize is relevant and Cabal Therapy is hit or miss without also playing Duress. Cabal Therapy is good in the SI manplan versions, but those versions trade up combo consistency for 0cc creatures.
Red Elemental Blast and Daze still suffer from the same problems as Pact of Negation, as far as being reactive and not working well with IT/LED. I like REB in matchups where I can afford to slowplay against blue decks and the opponent doesn't have Wasteland. Daze has the problem if being ineffective if the opponent's isn't tapped out, as well as set the deck back in land drops.
I think both REB and Daze are both strong contenders for the Pact of Negation spots and are all probably metagame choices. REB has advantages against Counterbalance decks, where Daze has advantages against Chalice-based decks, where Pact of Negation has advantages against FoW (while being 0cc).
I'd definitely run both REB (if you splash for red) and Daze in the sideboard, at least.
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Anyway, this is my current list:
B/U/r ANT
// Lands
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
2 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [A] Underground Sea
1 [R] Volcanic Island
1 [ON] Swamp (4)
1 [P3] Island (3)
// Spells
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [R] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [FNM] Brainstorm
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [4E] Ad Nauseam
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [7E] Duress
4 [FUT] Pact of Negation
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [NE] Daze
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 1 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 4 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
I've posted some decklists and considerations about this new card in the topics of TES and FT, but without success. Anyway I consider this card the future of storm combo, with this deck I beat for example a deck that usually is a nightmare of TES and FT like thresh UGB.
@Hanni: I see that your list is very similar to the mine. The core is every time the same (chrome, mystical, rituals, bla bla bla), but I'm trying 3 different version of the deck: one for each colour I use as splash.
The UBg version with the only 1 green card in Sb: K.Grip usually against Counterbalance. I think that this is a version oriented against Counterbalance decks in a meta full of them.
The UBw version for Orim as protection in a meta full of Spell Snare and Stifle and Serenity against Stax.
The Ubr version very similar to your list for many cards in Sb: ReB, EtW and Pyroclasm.
I don't see in your list a bouncer maindeck and I also see that you ignore the matchup against decks use Chalice + Trini. I use E.Truth in 1 single copy in the maindeck plus in Sb Serenity in the white version and in all others versions I use a mix of Rebuild and Hurkyl's Recall. Shattering Spree can't be enough, also with only 1 red land we can't destroy Chalice at 1 with Spree. We can't be a bye fo Stax and Dragon Stompy decks!
I also don't use EtW maindeck, there is an evident antisynergy between this card and PoN. And also, EtW is another card with an high CC: another antisynergy with Ad Nauseum. For these reasons I have only a copy in Sb against Extirpate decks and Discard matchups.
Again, I use PoN in Sb. I like it, but I don't want 4 dead copies in many matchups and again another antisynergy with LED. I prefer to keep them in SB.
I'm also trying Sensei maindeck to give to the deck more fluency. Sensei gives also an opportunity to do some tricks to win against blue based decks without protection.
I don't use 4 copies of Ad Nauseum. I want to reduce the possibilities to take too much dmg.
Ah, for last: I use a 1x of IGG. Against decks like Burn or GoyfSligh with an elevate quantity of burn spells the win condition with Ad Nauseum can be very risky and I don't want to lose because with Ad Nauseum I go 7 lifes and then my opponent kills me with Bolt+Fireblast. For this reason I use IGG.
1 Tormod's Crypt in my sideboard can be dropped for 1 Echoing Truth, then. Or 1 Shattering Spree can be dropped for 1 Echoing Truth.
Another point is that ADN bites chunks away from your lifetotal, so Churning out gobbo's when your life is at 4/5 isn't that powerfull. With the low R-mana count, it's also hard to get a couple of tokens out turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
BB
Why? Even at 4-5 life, if you AdN into EtW, you're going to be getting 20+ Goblins, so unless the opponent has burn (2 burn spells in this case), they are going to die via Goblin beats. The only time casting EtW after AdN is bad is when you use Pact in that turn and cannot pay 3UU next turn (which you usually can since you usually put so many 0cc mana producers into play, especially LED).
EtW gives the deck an out if the deck doesn't have enough/sufficient disruption, since EtW itself can only be countered by Stifle (when you don't go for the AdN + Tendrils win). It's also nice to grab when the deck cannot produce enough mana/storm after IT/LED. I've been pleased with it so far.
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This isn't in response to anyones post, just some info about the deck I'd like to toss out there.
Dreadstalker with 4 Sinkhole, 4 Wasteland, and 4 Stifle to attack the manabase, 4 Thoughtseize, Daze, 4 Force of Will, 4 Spell Snare, and 4 Counterbalance + 4 Top, is a very bad matchup.
Playing around Chalice is very possible. Game 1 it gets set to 1, which can easily be played around via IT/LED and/or 0cc mana + Cabal Ritual + AdN (in hand). Game 2, Chalice at 0 is harder, but still manageable. The deck can Dark Ritual/Cabal Ritual into AdN on the opponent's EOT with 1-3 (blue) mana open to cast Mystical Tutor/Echoing Truth/Wipe Away (tutor grabbing ET), or the deck can go off if it draws into Tendrils (or EtW if it has access to R) and enough Rituals.
Counterbalance is easy to race unless they hit you with a ton of other disruption, then it becomes problematic. Blind CB isn't so bad, but if they manage to get CounterTop, the decks only out is to topdeck into Wipe Away. Luckily, I've only had a few games where the opponent is actually able to assemble CounterTop before the deck goes off with protection, especially postboard with REB's.
In your example, Tendrils is better than EtW. It doesn't give your opponent a turn to deal with the tokens( Engineered Deed, blockers/attackers, removal.) EtW is powerfull in TES and Becher, because those decks can produce quite some red on turn 1. FT and SI doesn't run them, because they deal quite some damage to themself and can't produce some tokens( between 8 and 12) turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Alot of decks can deal with goblin tokens now adays.
If you can't get enough storm, you could use IGGy to gain extra storm.
BB
Post AdN, your opponent more than likely will not be able to resolve EE or Deed or whatever, so that's irrelevant.
You are missing the point about EtW though; its good when you can't resolve AdN. With IGG, you open yourself up to countermagic like FoW. With EtW, you simply drop 12 1/1's on turn 2 when you cannot protect an AdN and the opponent hopefully cannot answer it (usually done in game 1).
I think EtW > IGG maindeck, unless you plan on splashing white for Orim's Chant. In which case, you'd have to drop Pact (which is arguably better) and you'd lose the red splash (REB's arguably better than Chant too).
Postboard, the deck can drop the EtW for sideboard cards if it's a bad card vs the opponent. The ability to turn 1 EOT Mystical into an EtW ftw is strong against alot of decks, though.
----
On a sidenote, I'm considering dropping Wipe Away for Repeal. The 3cc of Repeal should dodge Counterbalance and it answers Chalice @ 0 for only 1cc. The biggest thing about it, though, is that it only requires a single blue mana, which is highly relevant. The ability to draw a card is a nice additional bonus, too.
I've tried exactly that build with Infernal Tutors, LED and one Tendrils; what I do not understand is how you go off reliably. Are you drawing into Mystical/Brainstorm + 2 blue, Infernal + LED or Tendrils/EtW every time?
After you cast AdN, it's not that difficult to draw into either IT/LED, Mystical/Brainstorm, or Tendrils/EtW. You draw at least 10 cards on average, which is more than enough to assemble those 2 card combos and have the mana to cast them. Especially on good flips where you hit 15 cards, the deck has very few problems going off. The deck fizzles occasionally, though most combo decks do that sometimes.
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On a sidenote, I found Daze lackluster postboard for Chalice. The opponent sets Chalice @ 0 and is therefore able to pay for Daze. Those will get dropped and I'll work on finding a replacement sideboard card.
Quoted for emphasis, using Ad Nauseam's Instant speed to cast it during the draw step instead of the main phase is broken, and not enough people seem to be aware of how to use Ad Nauseam and LED together (I didn't even consider it until I re-read the rules for LED)Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
Just cut Serum Visions for Mystical Tutor in the list above, and it's good to go.
I just realised this trick while goldfishing with LED in hand and Nauseam/Brainstorm or Mystical Tutor, LED is definitely correct given this and once you run LED then Infernal Tutor's probably correct. If LED is correct though I find it harder to agree with Pact of Negation, what's the point of running it? It will not protect Ad Nauseam if you go off with LED and once you've gone off you can Duress/Thoughtseize out Stifles.
What do people think of Angel's Grace as a sideboard plan? Vs something like Goyf-Sligh where you may not have enough life to go off. Perhaps even as a one of main-deck to give you an out when the deck's slower.
So from Breathweapon's list I'd run something like:
-4 Ponder
-4 Serum Visions
-1 Thoughtseize
+4 Mystical Tutor
+4 Chrome Mox
+1 Wipe Away or Angel's Grace with a Scrubland or Tundra in place of a basic
Maybe an unusual idea - what about ditching Cabal Ritual?
I'm liking BreathWeapon's list (the -Serum Vision +Mystical Tutor one) for goldfishing, and when I try to push it, I can usually get a turn 2 kill, and the other half of the time, it's turn 3. I don't think in the past 10 hands or so I've ever went to turn 4. Maybe I need to goldfish more to actually conclude that.
Anyway, the draw step kill is particularly nice with LED (you have tons of ways of setting up the draw step Ad Nauseam, from Brainstorm, Ponder, Mystical), and the occasional Infernal/LED into Ad Nauseam -> kill is helpful at times.
Though I'm not sure what happens when you factor in your opponent with all the FoW, Daze, and even stuff like Lightning Bolt or Fire/Ice. How low in life do you go? Also, I'm finding Thoughtseize to be a drag after me AdNing into the lows (Thoughtseize is essentially 3 life if you want to cast it), and I generally can only cast 1 Duress/Thoughtseize half the time from turn 1-2, and then I would need additional Duress/Thoughtseize to get rid of the assumed Stifle (or other random anti storm hate). Would Cabal Therapy be a better alternative as the Duress 5-8?
Another problem with going off very early (turn 2) is the fact that it's also hard to make blue mana after AdN (unless you hit lotus petals). At times I wished there was a Chromatic Sphere/Star in there to switch around mana.
Duress > Thoughtseize in an AdNauseam deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex
Depending on circumstances you could also feed a blue card to a Chrome Mox. With 4 Chrome moxes and 8+ blue cards, that should be a decent supplement to the Lotus Petals.
You could put PoN in the sideboard as a 3-of, although this deck has a hard time with burn in general.
I realize that Duress > Thoughtseize, that's why I was searching for an alternative, and I was wondering if Therapy was a better choice.
Thanks for the Chrome Mox suggestion, seems pretty solid, though I don't know if I want to play 4 of those.
My current list that I'm testing:
lands (I am playing 2 Chrome Moxens, so I decided to cut one land and play 14, will test more)
1 Island
1 Swamp
8 Fetch
4 Sea
Acceleration:
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
2 Chrome Mox
Disruption
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
Setup:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
Win con:
4 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils
Right now it seems pretty solid gold fishing (better than before at solving blue mana problem, no uncastable Thoughtseize after Ad Nauseam), but I'm gonna work on some of the resiliency issues.
I can believe Ad Naseum being awesome when you start at 20 life. I'm questioning how awesome it is when you have an opponent. How many games do you win at greater than:
2 life?
3 life?
5 life?
In other words, would an opposing turn 1 creature or a Lightning Bolt stop your plans cold?
The cut off is appr. 10, but it's not difficult to just pack Orim's Chants and run IGG, considering how ridiculous M.Tutor -> AdN and sacrificing LED during your upkeep is, you may not even need to run more than 1 AdN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
I think I have made some progress, it tests well in goldfishing so far.
I tried and applied the "Doomsday" philosophy with Ad Nauseam, that is, AdN/DDay are both setup cards that should win you the game when you resolve it. You cast DDay with some mana floated and you proceed to win, same with Ad Nauseam, except with Lotus Petal/Chrome Moxen/the LED upkeep -> draw trick, you often just need to resolve AdN, and the 10-12 cards you draw should allow you to win, don't need to setup a specific pile like DDay. Therefore, I went and cut all of the Infernal Tutors (like a few posters above had done).
During goldfishing, I was often quite unhappy with how I couldn't grab my singleton wincon (Tendrils) with Infernal Tutor unless I had LED in hand, and all of my other tutors all costed blue, which makes the Mystical -> Brainstorm/Ponder for Tendrils costs at least UU, and often more if I need to chain Brainstorm/Ponder into a Mystical (which sucks hardcore if I comboed early, since I would then need 1 or 2 additional Lotus Petals). So I added 2 Chrome Moxens, which has been performing OK.
So now the problem lies in resolving AdN. Again, I took the FT approach and added some SDT's for more card selection power. I'm playing close to a full set of fetches anyway, might as well use the top. So far I'm testing 2, but I might have to find room for more (I think maybe 4 top/2 ponder is better than 4 ponder/2 top, or maybe a 3/3 split, who knows). I also added 4 Orim's Chants to the main, replacing the Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy slot for better protection against things in general.
The list looks like this right now, maybe a singleton Ill-Gotten Gains is needed, maybe not, more goldfishing needs to be done. But right now, if you resolve AdN, you should win. Resolving AdN also happens most frequently on turn 3, so I'm happy with the speed.
list:
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [B] Tundra
1 [B] Scrubland
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [UNH] Island
4 [B] Underground Sea
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [B] Dark Ritual
4 [US] Duress
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [LRW] Ponder
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [UNH] Ad Nauseam
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
Edit: this list kinda looks like the newer FT list if you squint your eyes. I think it has potential. Also, I hate Cabal Ritual. With a passion.
There far too many untested lists floating around in this thread. To just comment the last one: I think you are overlooking the main reason to run SDT, which is in fact DD. So without it i rather would try something like Mental Note.
If you want to keep the FT approach you might wanna try a single AN in a list WITH Doomsday or you start from scratch and look for cards that synergize with it, which is only warranted if the card proves to be powerful enough to build a deck around and even if yes than i wouldnt solely rely on it.
Personal i like the concept to build threshold asap for Cabal Ritual via Mental Note and Intuition.
Intution for three AN looks good, because you pull out additional copies and lower the average cmc of your deck. On the other hand Intuition was dismissed for Tendrils decks a long time ago.
Yeah, Ad Nauseam is just worse than Doomsday in FT, you can't take as much damage with Ad Nauseam as you can with Doomsday and you can't Mystical Tutor for Infernal Contract either. There's just no point in using a more expensive, more life dependent card unless you're pushing the speed of the deck.
I'd recommend,
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Wipe Away
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Island
All you really need is a single AdN, the card is just so broken with Infernal Tutor and Mystical Tutor, there's no point in aiming for a 5cc hard cast.
I think I'd run that over TES, FT or SI, it's straight up sick how Stifle means jack shit now.
Your manabase would like to have a word with you :]Quote:
it's straight up sick how Stifle means jack shit now.
What's up with that singleton Empty the Warrens? Just because it's 6 mana instead of 7? I think you're opening yourself up to hate.
FT pretty much relies on DDay setup, and only in rare occasions does it go the IT->IGG route, since right now, FT runs only 5 actual rituals. I'm proposing the same setup (cast AdN, do some stuff with the cards AdN gives you win), except that without the inclusion of Infernal Tutors, I don't think IGG as a singleton helps that much, that's why I didn't include an alternative wincon.
SDT was just a way to achieve the Brainstorm/Ponder effect without using blue mana, which is pretty huge since after AdN you will have an excess of black mana that you can sink, but hardly any blue, that's why the 2 Chrome Moxens are there too. Too bad SDT sucks as a 4 of with so little lands. I'm gonna goldfish it at 2 some more.
A single AdN in FT lists kinda sucks, really. Alot of people already mentioned that in various FT threads on here and the stormboard. That's why there is this thread, for breaking AdN.
As for testing lists, Shards isn't even finished being spoiled yet, there are like 50 more cards to go. We can only goldfish, and right now, with the last 20 or so hands, it's been goldfishing pretty consistently.
The debate right now then becomes Infernal Tutor or no? I'm thinking no, but then again, this version runs alot more rituals, so maybe Infernal Tutor isn't such a bad idea. Though it sucks alot after an AdN. Gonna excessively goldfish some more.
You got me there, but if the opponent has to Stifle fetchlands instead of Stifling win conditions, then I'm satisfied with Stifle being demoted to a Sinkhole instead of a Mindtwist. I don't want to have to deal with Meddling Mage on Tendrils of Agony, if all Empty the Warrens does is force Meddling Mage to name another card, it's doing its job. Essentially, Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens forces the opponent's disruption to pick sub-optimal targets, which is very useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brehn
@Apex
Believe me, I tried what you're trying, and it sucked. You can subtract Ill Gotten Gains and Empty the Warrens for Ad Nauseams in the list I posted, but I'm about positive that's an optimal AdN shell.
A testing partner just MDs the 4 AdNs and SBs the non-Tendrils singletons, and that may well be the best approach.
In my testing, I've found EtW to rather sub-par since it rarely can be safely used in conjunction with AdN. I'm often at such low life, I can't afford to pass the turn; I need to win now.
Oh, I agree ETW sucks, but it's a lesser of 2 evils when choosing between tutoring for bounce, waiting to draw bounce, casting bounce and passing and just going off and Duressing their hand before dropping Goblins on the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Rotten
I'd straight up cut the card if there were no Meddling Mages to be found.
Cabal Therapy is probably better than Thoughtseize. Especially since Duress lets you look at the opponents hand so that Cabal won't miss.Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex
Raven's Crime could be interesting since it allows you to pump lands into your storm count. The downside is that it's not that effective as a disruption card.
On that theme, Scroll Rack could be better than SDT - since it's basically a junior tutor with the hand of doom you get from Ad Nauseam.
I haven't posted in a bit on this deck (I've been playtesting). Here are my results with the following speedy list:
Lands: 12x
1x Swamp
1x Island
4x Underground Sea
2x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
Mana Accel: 26
4x Lotus Petal
4x Chrome Mox
4x LED
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
3x ESG
3x Summoner's Pact
Card Quality: 16
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
4x Mystical Tutor
4x Infernal Tutor
Win-Stuff: 6
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Ill-Gotten Gains
4x Ad Nauseam
Out of close to 400 goldfishes, here are the winning turn percentages:
Turn 1= 15% (11% w/7-card hands, 4% w/6-card hands)
Turn 2= 72% (53% w/7-card hands, 19% w/6-card hands)
Turn 3= 12% (7% w/7-card hands, 5% w/6-card hands)
Turn 4+ = 1%
The deck is clearly a turn 2 deck. I'm sure I didn't play perfectly, and mulliganing becomes an art with the deck (I create percentage rules for Brainstorm/Ponder hands to determine if they are keepable). I don't know if this is good enough to not play protection.
Other comments:
-Adding Duress, Thoughtseize, Pact of Negation, Orim's Chant, etc. really does slow this deck down. In goldfishing, a protected version of the combo became closer to a turn 3 deck than a turn 2 deck.
-In the games I've played, I must admit that burn and very fast early damage was devastating to the viability of AdN. This deck, unfortunately, can't wait very long to go off because it can't afford to take a lot of damage and remain very consistent.
-Keeping the deck U/B has made for a very consistent mana-base.
Just a few late responses:
@ Hanni
Not convinced of that just yet. But, Duress would be the first piece of protection I'd play. Orim's would probably be second. Thoughtseize hurts, and PoN just wasn't hot.Quote:
you still need 4 Duress
This deck goes for the throat. If you blow your load, and you fizzle or get countered out, then you are screwed no matter what. You are going to lose if you don't succeed when you attempt to go off. Pact's upkeep trigger is pointless in this deck. Its drawback is meaningless. You either won, or you fizzled and you lost anyways.Quote:
I don't think ESG + Pact is how I'd want to accelerate the deck, honestly. That opens you up to FoW worse than usual now because if they Daze/FoW you're AdN, you lose the game. Quickening the clock to turn 1 kills like Belcher, you're just as vulnerable to turn 1 countermagic. ESG is 3cc, so on its own its not good for the decks curve
ESG+Pact is great. Test it and then come back and tell me otherwise.
@ BreathWeapon
This is the reason I went for a straight up speed combo. I use this so often, and I so commonly use Mystical on T1, which takes up my Duress mana, that I all too often have just been better off not running protection.Quote:
Quoted for emphasis, using Ad Nauseam's Instant speed to cast it during the draw step instead of the main phase is broken, and not enough people seem to be aware of how to use Ad Nauseam and LED together (I didn't even consider it until I re-read the rules for LED)
peace,
4eak
I agree with him. ESG-Pact is awful. What's so precious about that single green mana, and why play a 3cc card to bolt you post Ad Nauseum? I'd rather play disruption, So I don't lose to a single Force of Will, something that your list could take a hint from. How can you deny the power of Duress and PoN in actual gameplay? Of course they'll slow down the goldfish. That's what protection cards do, but we're building a deck to win actual games of magic. You sat down and played a whole bunch of games with that list. Good job. It's irrelevant. Take it to a tournament and you'll lose to blue consistently.Quote:
Originally Posted by 4eak
Im playing breath whepons first posted list with these changes
-4 thoughtseize (it just doesnt work here)
-4 Serum visions
+1 IGG
+4 mystical tutor
+3 cabal therepy
The list goldfishes really well, but I realized something that absoultely SUCKS in testing. If I draw tendrils (like raw draw) LED is a dead card, which is NOT GOOD. 1 IGG is an easy fix and lets you go for the loop vs burn and such (So you dont have to do ad nauseum) It fixes all the red matches, by itself (I Kept having trouble with the "Bolt you, bolt bolt you" when on the draw starts putting me at 10) 1 IGG fixes this because they cant beat the iggy start often.
Also from straight up testing therepy is strictly better then thoughtseize if you know what you want, starting off with brainstorm is a good if they dont in responce, nameing force is also good, it mainly lets you see your problematic cards in hands.
Things @ Breathwhepon
Have you considered cutting 1 adnauseum, and 2 bad disruption for 3 intutition.
The other question is could you consider cutting 2 bad disruption for 1 slaughter pact (mage/teeg) and 1 wipe away/rebuild/any bounce spell. Im thinking that E truth, or something would be a good bounce spell as its cheep, the best one barring the 2 cards Im REALLY scared of is repeal, it bounces every thing but chalice @1, and 3 sphear.
Im begining to think 1 vendicate would actualy be a good inclusion but thats just rambling and food for thought.
I understand not dropping an ad nauseum(That card has such good creepy art...) but As we were saying when we tested it, do you really need 7-8 disruption????? isnt say 5-6 fine.
I also have the question of "Where can we add chrome mox" We were unacceptably unhappy with out it. We need 4 slots for that card.
@People
Pact of Negation is not an option in a deck that's using bother Infernal Tutor and Mystical Tutor with Lion's Eye Diamond to cast Ad Nauseam.
@4eak
You need disruption, slowing the aggro-control opponent down is the same thing as speeding the Storm player up, and turn 3 wins still get the job done vs aggro.
I don't care for Chrome Mox, I'd rather hit land drops thru' turn 3 99% of the time.
Edit @ Undone
Scroll up the page, and you'll see my "up to date" list, I added Ill Gotten Gains and the second win condition for similar reason and I cut Thought Seize for those exact reasons but I've found Chrome Mox to be really bad.
I go back and forth on the second win condition, the bounce and a disruption slot for more Ad Nauseams, but I suppose there's nothing about 8 disruption spells that's set in stone other than being super useful.
You'll just have to weight the utility of one card vs another and judge for yourself.
BreathWeapon
Im not advocating cutting lands, Im advocating cutting either 2-3 disruption and 1 cabal ritual, or just putting 3 in the deck, You NEEED UU most of the time, this helps you get the second blue.
What's the reasoning for UU, M.Tutor + Cantrip for Tendrils on the back end? Most of the time, I'm just re-casting the Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond chain for the Tendrils, the problem with Chrome Mox is that it just eats all of the cards you need to set up.Quote:
Originally Posted by undone
I'll look into it, but I wouldn't run Chrome Mox unless I was forced to run Chrome Mox, it's just not good.
@ troopatroop
Awful at what? ESG-Pact is not awful at what it does. 1-mana per card is perfectly acceptable. And, there isn't a ton of difference in life totals between running Duress+PoN or Duress+Thoughtseize vs. S-Pact+ESG, especially when you are pacting ESG's out of the deck. You haven't done your math. To answer your question directly: I was trying ESG-Pact out to see how fast and consistent the deck could play because perhaps it actually would be worth playing the version in the first match.Quote:
I agree with him. ESG-Pact is awful. What's so precious about that single green mana, and why play a 3cc card to bolt you post Ad Nauseum?
You've missed my argument entirely. I'm clearly open to the possibility that a disruptive version will be the best version. My argument for ESG+Pact has literally nothing to do with a version of this deck that plays disruption in the main. My argument for ESG+Pact has everything to do with the value of its mana acceleration as opposed to other options to the pure-speed combo version of this deck (something that would only be found in the first game of a match).Quote:
I'd rather play disruption
In a deck looking to speed its way into the win, playing without disruption in the first game of a match, ESG-Pact does a fine job. My argument is that if you are trying to play the speedy version of this deck, then ESG-Pact is a viable mana accelerant for the last slots. If you want to prove me wrong, then start from the premise that we are evaluating the pure-speed combo version of the deck, and then show me the better cards. I'm not saying the pure-speed combo is the correct choice, nor am I saying that ESG+Pact is absolute the best choice for that version, but both are definitely something we should consider.
There is only a 40% chance to open with FoW (not including a 2nd blue card), which is a chance we should be willing to consider, especially when my opponent doesn't know what I'm playing in the first game.Quote:
So I don't lose to a single Force of Will, something that your list could take a hint from.
More importantly: The deck can side in control.
Additionally, IGG can play around countermagic to some extent. It can take more than 1 counter to stop this deck.
I don't deny they are powerful cards. I've played duress in TPS for a very long time in vintage. I know the card is outright amazing. I didn't say the deck shouldn't run them. I had the cards in my sideboard for the matches I did play, and they were there for the 2nd/3rd games.Quote:
How can you deny the power of Duress and PoN in actual gameplay?
How can you deny that we shouldn't at least even consider the unprotected but fastest and most consistent version of the deck pre-board?
Lastly, PoN really isn't that hot in this deck. LED is just too important.
Yeah, thanks for trolling.Quote:
That's what protection cards do, but we're building a deck to win actual games of magic.
Please read what I've written. I not only said I goldfished, but I also said I played actual games. I fully realize the implications of goldfishing. Goldfishing is actually somewhat relevant to a deck that generally isn't even looking to interact in the first game of a match.
For the record: this version won plenty of games, even against decks with FoW. It is blazing fast, and it is designed to win the first game of a match, not the post-board games. The truth is that if you don't mulligan into 1st turn FoW as a control player, then you are very likely to lose to this deck.
More trolling.Quote:
You sat down and played a whole bunch of games with that list. Good job. It's irrelevant. Take it to a tournament and you'll lose to blue consistently.
Perhaps it isn't the best version of the deck (and I'm certainly not claiming it to be). But, my work was hardly irrelevant, and we did play the deck against several blue-based control decks (and won many matches).
Knowing how fast the deck can goldfish the 1st match is a very reasonable question to try to answer.
@ BreathWeapon
I assume you've read what I wrote above. In any case, I agree that the deck absolutely must run protection in games 2 and 3. I'm still not convinced of it in game 1, but I'm not against the idea at all.Quote:
You need disruption, slowing the aggro-control opponent down is the same thing as speeding the Storm player up, and turn 3 wins still get the job done vs aggro.
-Also, Duressing aggro-control in the first match isn't exactly the same as speeding up the storm player. It is close, but there are many cases where this just isn't true. Duress isn't always a timewalk, and in many cases I've found avoiding their control through speed to be the better answer (try it out if you don't believe me).
-Turn 3 wins against aggro, depending on the aggro deck, really might not be a good idea. That does come from testing too. Some aggro decks can win on turn 3, but more importantly, taking any lifeloss from your opponent devalues Ad Nauseam and destabilizes the combo. We cannot forget that each passing turn and each point of damage this deck takes has more implications that it does for most combo decks. Ad Nauseum is not a card with which we can easily slow play or remain in the control position for more than a turn or two at best.
peace,
4eak