[Deck] The EPIC Elf Survival

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Originally Posted by Xenos

Can start off by cutting those useless Squee and Wood Elves in my opinion.


Or any card that is only there because you happen to have Survivals. No deck should ever be built to revolve around 4 cards. It should be the opposite, the 4 Survivals should revolve around the deck, and just "happen" to fit in. That's maximal efficiency.

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Squee is the weakest maindeck slot right now, so that's the best possibility. I'm personally just a little uncomfortable removing him, because I've won a handful of games because of it. There's been more than enough times where having him (being another creature in my hand by dumping him the previous turn) has allowed me to do a lot more stuff. It doesn't force you to rely on Messenger for CA, which can be slow seeing how it costs 3G.

Wood Elves is very dependant on your playstyle with the deck. A majority of the time if I have Survival I will go to the throat with the Mirror Entity kill. If it requires Wood Elves, then I'll take the shot. Even without that, I haven't minded drawing it or anything.


Otherwise I'm unsure atm. The only other slot I'd look at is the 4th Perfect, which I'm almost ok with doing.

I too think that the Entity combo is unneeded - just imagine what would happen if instead of Entity + 1 mana activation, you'd drop Messenger, then use Symbiote to untap Priest and bounce Messenger. At that point, you should be able to get more Priests or Rangers, create mana, get more Messengers, and finally just attack with at least four Messengers and two or three lords. I don't even think Timberwatch Elves are needed.


Also, I've tried it a lot, but I think third turn wins aren't very common. From what I know, you'd need Survival, two lands (one of them a Fetch), and at least six creatures for Survival (one of them a Llanowar). That's nine cards, meaning that if they somehow kill ANY of them, no combo. And that's pretty likely. Or maybe some-one could give me examples of a third turn kill that requires less cards ? I'd be grateful.

Land, Queer ranger.
Land, Priest
Land, entity, Symbiote via priest for two, use priest's remaining floating mana to entity for 1. Then just do broken things with ranger then combo off.

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I too think that the Entity combo is unneeded - just imagine what would happen if instead of Entity + 1 mana activation, you'd drop Messenger, then use Symbiote to untap Priest and bounce Messenger. At that point, you should be able to get more Priests or Rangers, create mana, get more Messengers, and finally just attack with at least four Messengers and two or three lords. I don't even think Timberwatch Elves are needed.

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This requires a lot more effort and luck as well. Prior to me adding Mirror Entity that scenario you described was my main means of winning. It's much harder to do and is a lot more mana intensive. Plus there'd be times when I'd either wiff completely on Messenger or hit only one elf. At that point it's wasteful. Mirror Entity on its own, not even with the Symbiote combo, provides massive beats and allows you to go over the top compared to other aggro decks.

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Also, I've tried it a lot, but I think third turn wins aren't very common. From what I know, you'd need Survival, two lands (one of them a Fetch), and at least six creatures for Survival (one of them a Llanowar). That's nine cards, meaning that if they somehow kill ANY of them, no combo. And that's pretty likely. Or maybe some-one could give me examples of a third turn kill that requires less cards ? I'd be grateful.

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Third turn kills are difficult, and can greatly differ on how they're played on depending on your draws, land drops, and non-creatures in the opening hand. Often times it will involve using multiple Wirewood Symbiotes to build mana and return creatures to pitch away. With Survival the most common way to do it is through opening a mana elf and at least one combo piece. After a couple games just played, I opened up the following hand:

Windswept Heath
Llanowar Elves
Taiga
Survival of the Fittest
Elvish Champion
Wren's Run Vanquisher
Wirewood Symbiote

For the sake of simplicity, let's just assume this is a goldfish so you know how to do it. I was also on the play here.

Turn 1: Windswept Heath -> Savannah, Llanowar Elves.

Turn 2: Draw Llanowar Elves. Play Taiga, Survival of the Fittest. Eot, Survival Wren's Run Vanquisher for Anger.

Turn 3: Draw Sylvan Messenger. We drew a creature so it's possible to win:
Survival Anger for Priest of Titania.
Play Llanowar Elves.
Tap both Elves to cast Priest.
(At this point, all lands and Elves are tapped, and have Elvish Champion, Wirewood Symbiote, and Sylvan Messenger in hand).
Tap Priest of Titania for GGG.
Survival Elvish Champion for Quirion Ranger, cast Quirion Ranger (G floating).
Activate Quirion Ranger returning Savannah and untap Priest of Titania.
Play Savannah.
Tap Priest of Titania for GGGG, Survival Sylvan Messenger for Mirror Entity. Tap the Savannah, cast Mirror Entity (G floating)
Cast Wirewood Symbiote
Activate Wirewood Symbiote, returning Llanowar Elves to untap Priest of Titania.
Tap Priest of Titania for GGGG (Llanowar, itself, Quirion, Entity), Survival the Llanowar Elves just returned to hand for Wirewood Symbiote.
Cast Wirewood Symbiote (GG floating).
Activate Mirror Entity for 1, return Symbiote, Tap Priest, repeat. Infinate mana, untap all creatures, do whatever, win.


Clearly it can be vulnerable as creature removal can stop that, but you aren't just going to go for it if the possibilities are slim, but the point is you can clearly achieve it. It takes a bit to pull off, but I've done the turn 3 kill in over a dozen different fashions.


Also on an unrelated note, I've cut Squee from the deck. Randomly drawing it and flipping it on Messenger came to the point where I'd get angry. My list isn't final yet, but I'll update it soon enough.

Thanks for explaining the combo ! But it seems that it can't really be done with less than 6 creatures, pity really. The combo rsaunder posted works of course since you save mana for Survival, but it's REALLY unlikely to get the four creatures you need in the first three turns without using Survival.

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

Thanks for explaining the combo ! But it seems that it can't really be done with less than 6 creatures, pity really. The combo rsaunder posted works of course since you save mana for Survival, but it's REALLY unlikely to get the four creatures you need in the first three turns without using Survival.

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Part of the reason I run multiples of Mirror Entity and Wirewood Symbiote, in addition to them being very good by themselves, is to raise the possibility of doing the combo outside Survival. It doesn't happen too often, but I've done it a few times.

Also, I realize the high number of creatures needed for the turn 3 win, but also remember that there are only 22 cards in the deck (4 Survival + 22 land) that aren't creatures, so you already have a very high chance of drawing a lot of them. Turn 3 is slightly hard as they are all similar to the scenario I posted above, but turn 4 is much easier. Either you have an extra land or an extra creature, but either way it adds a lot more to it.

The third turn kill can be delayed very easily that's true. Turn three wins happen all the time in Goldfishing but in real games it usually takes on average 3-7 (or more) turns depending on how much they are disrupting you.

But you're constantly making that threat to combo off and it keeps your opponent busy trying to stop it, so it does its job whether or not you actually pull it off.

As for the 6 creatures needed to combo, that's not necessarily true. The process of the combo itself is building up your creature count to the point of which you win. I don't know if that is what you meant or if you were saying you need 6 creatures to begin this process. I've often started with 1 or 2 Elves on the board and suddenly had my whole deck layed out on that same turn. I haven't determined the exact "rule" of how much mana/cards you need but often if you can get a Priest + 1 elf or more, and can manage to play a Messenger, there's a big chance that you can win on that turn, if undisrupted of course.

Anyways, with Savannahs, 4 Absolute Law should be considered for sideboard to swap for the Survivals in some matchups.

At the moment I'm testing this build, if it works out well I might even play it in the dutch tournament to win a planeticket and hotel to the GP:

4 Forest
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Gaea's Cradle

4 Survival of the Fittest

4 Llanowar Elves
4 Fyndhorn Elves
4 Priestof Titania
4 Elvish Champion
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Imperious Perfect
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Mirror Entity
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wood Elves
1 Thornweald Archer
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger

SB:
3 Orim's Chant
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg

I really like the singleton Cradle in here, you almost never have in in your opening hand as your only land and it's pretty good when you draw it when builing up. The only problem I have with it is that it's vunrable against Wasteland.

Other than that, I guess this is pretty much a basic list. Are there any updates on the deck other should know about? I'm really tempted to include at least 1 Eternal Witness to the list.

I'm going to assume Anger and Sylvan Messenger are supposed to be in there somewhere? Your list is only 54 cards, so I imagine you just forgot them, along with something else, which in my list would be Wren's Run Packmaster (your list also runs Squee over my 18th land). Packmaster has been very good for me, I'm really impressed with it. I've never been unhappy drawing it, as it provides a great role as a beater and make a lot of additional beaters. It's certainly better than Chameleon Colossus.

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3 Orim's Chant
3 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg

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My test board is looking very similar to this. Currently, it looks like this:

4 Krosan Grip
4 Orim's Chant
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Choke
1 Caller of the Claw


This is pretty much solely focusing on the deck's worst matchups, being combo and dedicated board control. Landstill-esque decks might be the hardest matchup, but I've found them quite winnable too. I doubt that board is finalized for me, though.


On another note, I've been getting flooded with 18 lands recently. It's weird. I don't want to go below 18 because I like hitting 2-3 in my opening hand, but it really gets aggravating if I draw more than 4. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about it yet. I'm still testing Elvish Spirit Guide as well but I'm 50/50 on how I feel about that. It's possible for me to cut a land for one as a singleton, but at that point the land would just be better. But I'd still like to give ESG, maybe as a 2 or 3of a try, because it accelerates the deck incredibly well for first turn Survival or Priest, or even turn 1 Thorn or Gaddock Teeg post-board.

You were right, I forgot the Anger and Messengers.

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Originally Posted by Di

On another note, I've been getting flooded with 18 lands recently. It's weird. I don't want to go below 18 because I like hitting 2-3 in my opening hand, but it really gets aggravating if I draw more than 4. I'm not sure what I'm going to do about it yet. I'm still testing Elvish Spirit Guide as well but I'm 50/50 on how I feel about that. It's possible for me to cut a land for one as a singleton, but at that point the land would just be better. But I'd still like to give ESG, maybe as a 2 or 3of a try, because it accelerates the deck incredibly well for first turn Survival or Priest, or even turn 1 Thorn or Gaddock Teeg post-board.

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I found a solution in this by playing a single Gaea's Cradle. This gives you the mana you need most of the time and keeps your land around 2/3, which is enough when playing so many mana-elves.

I need to test out Packmaster, I had it in the board for a while, but never actually sided it in.

About the sideboard, I really don't know yet. I'm planning on ging to this turnament after a brake of 1.5 year of tournament play, so I have no idea what to expect at the moment.

Here is my report on my top8 finish with the deck. It was my first tournament with the deck, so I played a bit sloppy and even though I've been testing it and working for a couple months, was picking up things throughout the day. The list and sideboard are both a bit different than what I've been running, but it was a metagame decision.


Some thoughts on the deck itself though:

- My initial thoughts regarding the lords are correct. I wouldn't run any less than 8. Very rarely you can get stuck with under 3 mana and could have them clogged in hand, but otherwise they are straight gold. Either Perfect or Champion won me a majority of my games, and I always wanted to see more of them.

- Wren's Run Vanquisher is ridiculous. I don't know how I went down to two. Those will be going up. Packmaster will most likely be cut for another. Packmaster is good, but Vanquisher only costs 1G, so that can matter.

- 3 Symbiote is the correct number. I wouldn't run any more or less.

- Wood Elves needs to stay in the deck. There were a few games I couldn't have won without it, and it was always decent when I saw it otherwise.

- The deck's best matchups are blue, but there still should be sideboard geared towards them given how popular blue decks are. I only ran two Choke and I wanted more, they were gold whenever they stuck.

- Combo still sucks, but I don't know if it's worth putting so much effort in to fix. Even with all that hate it's still a miserable matchup.


Things I want to get around to testing:

- Wasteland. This deck is always ahead early game. It will always have more mana and more permanents. But sometimes I want another push so the opponent can't come back and stabilize. I was wishing Wasteland was in my deck all day because if I hit an opponent's land on turn 1-3 half the time they would've been so far behind it'd be difficult to catch up.

- Sideboard Price of Progress. A big issue this deck has is finishing once the opponent begins to stabilize. Often times you'll rush early and put them down really low on life, but need to work really hard for the last ~5 damage or so. Price is awesome against nearly the entire format, so it'd be dealing roughly 6-10 damage on average.

Otherwise everything was really good. I'm unsure as to what I'm going to do about my next list, I suppose only testing will figure that out for me.

Again congratulations on the finish.

I've been toying a bit with the ESG build for an hour or so now, and I understand now why you really can't decide between a build with or without them. Maybe it's totally play style (and meta) dependent.

Just a few other questions:

- I understand you want more Vanquishers, but did you ever miss the Archer? I know this deck should be able to win before cards like Mystic Enforcer and Tombstalker become dangerous, but when playing real matches I've encountered problems with Sui and the like (because of the heavy discard), which runs Tombstalker.

- Ever thinking about going back to Squee? I liked him since it allows you to keep creature-light hands with Survival in it, but I can see why at least in an ESG build it needs to be cut to make room.

- After playing a bit with Packmaster, I don't think it should be cut. I've even had people playing Needle on Mirror Entity, Packmaster is a nice out to this, plus it allows you to (semi-)combo out without white mana.

- What do you normally side out? In my opinion we shouldn't touch the combo itself, in the end I normally end op siding out singletons of Wood Elf, Llanowar, Perfect/Champion (depending on the matchup), a Quirion Ranger and such.

All in all, I feel the deck keeps getting stronger as I play more with it. Must be the experience I'm getting with it, but I keep seeing more and more ridiculous plays with it.

I still want to put an Eternal Witness in there, although testing has shown it doesn't really work unless you put 2/3 in, for which we don't have the room. Getting back a Zealot against a deck packing 4 Deeds main would be nice.

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Originally Posted by Atwa

Again congratulations on the finish.

I've been toying a bit with the ESG build for an hour or so now, and I understand now why you really can't decide between a build with or without them. Maybe it's totally play style (and meta) dependent.

Just a few other questions:

- I understand you want more Vanquishers, but did you ever miss the Archer? I know this deck should be able to win before cards like Mystic Enforcer and Tombstalker become dangerous, but when playing real matches I've encountered problems with Sui and the like (because of the heavy discard), which runs Tombstalker.

- Ever thinking about going back to Squee? I liked him since it allows you to keep creature-light hands with Survival in it, but I can see why at least in an ESG build it needs to be cut to make room.

- After playing a bit with Packmaster, I don't think it should be cut. I've even had people playing Needle on Mirror Entity, Packmaster is a nice out to this, plus it allows you to (semi-)combo out without white mana.

- What do you normally side out? In my opinion we shouldn't touch the combo itself, in the end I normally end op siding out singletons of Wood Elf, Llanowar, Perfect/Champion (depending on the matchup), a Quirion Ranger and such.

All in all, I feel the deck keeps getting stronger as I play more with it. Must be the experience I'm getting with it, but I keep seeing more and more ridiculous plays with it.

I still want to put an Eternal Witness in there, although testing has shown it doesn't really work unless you put 2/3 in, for which we don't have the room. Getting back a Zealot against a deck packing 4 Deeds main would be nice.

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Yeah the ESG thing is hit or miss, I dunno. I really love it sometimes, but then sometimes I wish it was a land. I had to throw away an AMAZING hand of ESG, Llanowar, Quirion Ranger, Priest of Titania, Survival, Elvish Champion, Sylvan Messenger because the ESG wasn't a land. I was very close to keeping that but didn't want to risk it. On the other hand, ESG was awesome against Daze. Against 4c Counterbalance my opponent tried to Daze my Survival then I pitched ESG, and he had to Force pitching Counterbalance. That was incredible. More testing will let me know, but I'm really tempted to adjust the deck a bit and put Wasteland in that slot.

1. I didn't miss the Archer, but then again, I never saw any flyers. I'm sure my stance would've changed a bit if I sat across from Tombstalkers and such, but I think if I went back to that slot it'd be another Vanquisher. The fact it's a 3/3 is huge. I won a few games on his back alone.

2. I probably won't go back to using Squee. The only time I wanted it throughout the day was when I was in topdeck mode with a Survival in play against Dreadstill, but at that point I was so far behind it wouldn't have mattered if I had Squee or not.

3. Being a mana sink is one of the best benefits for Packmaster. I'm not sure I'd cut it outright because it can be very good, but I'm just not sure. I need to find room for another Vanquisher somewhere, and that's the most flexible slot.

4. I admittedly don't know how to sideboard well with this deck; it's very hard. Throughout the day I was boarding very weird. If I was adding in 6+ cards, 1-2 Messengers would come out, along with stuff like Wood Elves, a Ranger, maybe a Symbiote, a lord, etc. If I was Bringing in Moon I'd take out 1 Entity. I didn't actually do this, but after talking about it with Birdman we think boarding out a Survival or two is the right call in a few cases. Post-board it can be rather weak in a lot of matchups as it's difficult to abuse outright, but is still strong enough to keep in the deck. It's something I'm hoping I can nail down by the time GP Chicago rolls around.

5. Eternal Witness is something I wanted a few times throughout the day, but so weak by itself in here that I can't justify running it.

I am going to test this plan for a while:
Threshold (w Counterbalance):
-1 Fyndhorn
-1 Perfect/Wood Elves (perfect if he plays wastelands)
-1 Survival of the Fittest
-1 Mirror Entity
+2 Choke
+2 Krosan Grip

Threshold (wo Counterbalance):
-1 Zealot
-1 Perfect/Wood Elves (perfect if he plays wastelands)
+2 Choke

Goblins:
-1 Fyndhorn
-1 Symbiote
-1 Perfect/Champion (Perfect if he plays Rg)
+3 Pithing Needle

Dreadstill:
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Elvish Champion
-1 Llanowar
-1 Sylvan Messenger
+2 Choke
+3 Krosan Grip

Landstill:
-1 Mirror Entity
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Anger
-1 Archer
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Llanowar
-2 Survival
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Choke
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Magus

Ichorid:
-1 Zealot
-1 Llanowar
-1 Elvish Champion
+2 Thorn of Amethyst
+1 Gaddock Teeg

I'm not sure at the moment what to use against Aggro Loam and Combo (Chants and Thorns mostly), but here is my take on some other matches for reference.

Especially Agrro Loam worries me. My sideboard is:
3 Orim's Chant
3 Krosan Grip
3 Pithing Needle
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Choke
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg.

I'm considering at the moment: Armageddon, Caller of the Claw, Vexen Susher.

I disagree with taking out Quirion Ranger vs. Landstill or Dreadstill. He's your best way to protect from Wasteland.

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Originally Posted by Atwa

Landstill:
-1 Mirror Entity
-1 Wood Elves
-1 Anger
-1 Archer
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Llanowar
-2 Survival
+3 Krosan Grip
+2 Choke
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Magus

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I think boarding in Gaddock too is the right way (stops Humility,Wrath,EE,Elspeth,...).But I think adding 1-offs and removing Survivals which tutors for them isnt the right way.

Congrats on the finish ! It really speaks for the deck that you were up against Dreadstill with a red splash three times and defeated two of them...huge creatures + CBalance + Pyroclasm seems tough.

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Originally Posted by georgjorge

Congrats on the finish ! It really speaks for the deck that you were up against Dreadstill with a red splash three times and defeated two of them...huge creatures + CBalance + Pyroclasm seems tough.

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First off, thanks. :)

The Dreadstill matchup is highly dependent on the build they run. The list I lost to had maindeck Krosan Grips, Tarmogoyfs, and Fire/Ice, so that was much more difficult than traditional U/r builds. In the round I lost , game 2 he had a turn 2 Dreadnought with FoW backup and Wasteland to keep me off Grip mana (nuts), and game 3 he had triple FoW, double Fire/Ice, and a Firespout. I'd say a lot of luck was there as I ran over him game 1 and had a relatively easy time. And the other two times I played against it I won with relative ease but had to fight through Pyroclasm still. Even though they have a lot of bad stuff, at least post-board, I'd still say the matchup is in your favor. They have difficulty handling a lot of creatures and can get stuck with a Krosan Grip on their Dreadnought, and Counterbalance is rather weak against this deck as the bombs are all 3cc and 4cc.

Despite this, Pyroclasm/Firespout presents a huge problem for the deck. Any control deck with a red splash, whether it be Dreadstill, Threshold, Landstill, etc, will be running it. I like Caller of the Claw, but by itself I don't know if it can pull it's weight. This has been mentioned before, and I've looked at it as well but dismissed it, but I actually think something like Absolute Law needs to be re-examined as a sideboard possibility. Pyroclasm appears to be a lot more popular than Engineered Plague, and it's something this deck NEEDS to have an answer for. Unfortunately as much as I dislike Absolute Law I can't find a better answer really aside from additional Caller of the Claws. The only reason I consider Law over Caller (or rather additional Callers) is because Law is also very good against Goblins and Goyf Sligh.

I don't know if there's something that's gone over my head, but if anyone has any good ideas on how to fight Pyroclasm better please speak. Oh, and don't mention Bubble Matrix, card is worse than Absolute Law.

Somewhat derailing the topic, but amusing people none the less.

So someone mentioned that Eladamri isn't an elf anymore. I was really confused to that change. Anyway, I found an error in gatherer when I was looking it up.

http://ww2.wizards.com/gatherer/Card....aspx?&id=4757

^^ Eladamri's Gatherer Result ^^

What does giving trample have to do with Eladamri? Shouldn't it be forestwalk?

He is an elf, but they changed him to say "Other elves..."

The only time Trample has been mentioned in this thread is refering to pumping Sylvan Messenger.

'grats on the finish Di.

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Originally Posted by Swing4Five

He is an elf, but they changed him to say "Other elves..."

The only time Trample has been mentioned in this thread is refering to pumping Sylvan Messenger.

'grats on the finish Di.

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Trample has also been mentioned on the rulings text of Eladamri... hence the "found and error on gatherer" i assume.

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Originally Posted by Di

I don't know if there's something that's gone over my head, but if anyone has any good ideas on how to fight Pyroclasm better please speak. Oh, and don't mention Bubble Matrix, card is worse than Absolute Law.

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I don't know if it's a better answer, but it doesn't hurt to mention Burrenton Forge-Tender as another answer to Pyroclasm. EDIT: It is a creature, so you can search for it via Survival.

Oh, there's also Shared Triumph and Gaea's Anthem.

Hope that helps.

Fecundity is another possibility, and could be great against other stuff like Wrath of God, Pernicious Deed, Damnation, EE, Perish, etc. That could be really solid, but Absolute Law at least assures I keep my threats in play, not hopefully drawing into more.

I'll have to test both of them.

Something that I've been asking:

Is this better and more consistent than Glimpse Elves (wincon Grapeshot)?

I personally feel it's better since Survival shell is very consistent and has little dead cards. The cards in Glimpse Elves are dead without Glimpse or any of the combo pieces. This deck plays out as the Aggro role, beating with Elves + Lord even without Survival. I'm just wondering whether this is more competitive than any Glimpse version of Elves.

It's placed in more events than Glimpse Elves has, and has just as many options of WinCons (Glimse Elves being able to Grapeshot, Tendrils, Chants during upkeep and swing with the horde, etc.) as the Survival version, and both can play the beatdown roll. I think the Glimpse version is a bit more fragile, however, but that is currently backed by results.

Something that I've been wanting to ask. Why not run Regal Force as a one-off in the deck?

It gives you steam in a deck that churns out mana so fast. Imagine the situation:

Survival + Priest + Mirror + Symbiote = Infinite mana = win through huge elves
Survival + Priest + Symbiote + no Mirror = try to chain into multiple Priests/Symbiote/Messengers and win
Survival + Priest + Mirror + Symbiote + Regal Force = lol

But in general, I'm not sure whether Regal Force is needed, but it seems that if you resolved on without survival in this deck, you get a lot of steam back. Maybe it's good in the sideboard against boardsweepers? If somehow we are able to include Regal Force without screwing the decklist too much, it might be possible to pack a Grapeshot as well when we draw into it :P

It's probably a bad idea, but just a thought

Has Nullmage Sheperd been considered as an Survivable answer to CB? It's Elf, dodges CB, and it's reusable. Too good, I mean, too slow?

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Originally Posted by crz87

Something that I've been wanting to ask. Why not run Regal Force as a one-off in the deck?

It gives you steam in a deck that churns out mana so fast. Imagine the situation:

Survival + Priest + Mirror + Symbiote = Infinite mana = win through huge elves
Survival + Priest + Symbiote + no Mirror = try to chain into multiple Priests/Symbiote/Messengers and win
Survival + Priest + Mirror + Symbiote + Regal Force = lol

But in general, I'm not sure whether Regal Force is needed, but it seems that if you resolved on without survival in this deck, you get a lot of steam back. Maybe it's good in the sideboard against boardsweepers? If somehow we are able to include Regal Force without screwing the decklist too much, it might be possible to pack a Grapeshot as well when we draw into it :P

It's probably a bad idea, but just a thought

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The deck feeds on elf synergies, not combos really, that's just a bonus. There's no room for that stuff nor any need. The cards you mentioned are weak on their own in any case, and don't help you unless you already have a good position. This deck functions differently than glimpse of nature builds.

Just wondering because I am playing Glimpse Aggro, not Glimpse + Grapeshot, so my list is similar to the Survival list except with the Glimpse engine. The idea is beatdown with 8 lords on turn 3. In my version, I run 4 Messengers and play similarly to this deck, but the deck only goes off with the Heritage+Sentinel engine.

Looking at the two decks, I feel that this is more competitive, because in Glimpse Elves, Heritage and Sentinel are pretty bad cards if the engine fails, and in the strict combo Glimpse Elves, you don't even get beats. I run Glimpse aggro which compensates for an aggro plan.

Looking at this list, it seems that it's a much better version of my Glimpse aggro, and has the potential to go nuts even without Survival. I was just thinking of Regal Force because in my Glimpse aggro list, I run 1, tutored by Pact (funny how Survival is so much better a tutor than Pact is), and Regal Force has always given the deck steam even if you're not winning, but I can see why we shouldn't run it. It's win-more, and does nothing when you're losing, with zero creatures on board. There are time though when you have 3-4 creatures on board without any chance of chaining into more creatures or comboing, where Regal Force helps a little. But I guess space is tight and it's not a good slot.

In my Glimpse aggro list, Wren's Run Packmaster is amazing. From my experience, I can say that Championing Perfect is a good play against decks that pack mass removal. It seems a waste to lose the pumps from Perfect, but it allows you to recover fast after a mass sweep as Perfect returns to put more 2/2 elves into play. My original Glimpse list ran Priests + Packmaster, which is a very good win con, and I advocate that Packmaster needs to be at least a 1-off in the deck as a mana sink.

I think we can write the matchup against Goyf Slight as very unfavorable.

I've been testing against it and it was a total slaughter. As long as your opponent knows what he is doing (burn all the early mana elves instead of keeping his spells for the combo pieces), you can't beat this deck.

I was testing Fecundity in the board, but that doesn't do the matchup good. Turn 3 is too slow to save your early board and after that, the opponent gains a lot of advantage too with Fanatic, Marauder and blocking creatures.

Since a lot of the other sweepers can be blocked otherwise (Teeg and Grip), I'm really temped to advocate Absolute Law in the board over Fecundity. Most of the other Matchups which use sweepers are favorable anyway, the only decks I've really had problems with so far are either combo, Landstill and decks which pack a lot of burn.

Especially Devastating Dreams is a card which really hoses us, if we can't save our lands, we should at least be able to save our other sources of mana from turn 2.

Here is the sideboard I use at the moment (non ESG build):
3 Orim's Chant
3 Krosan Grip
3 Absolute Law
2 Choke
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Magus of the Moon (I'm really thinking about switching this one for Caller)
1 Gaddock Teeg

I'm sure it's been discussed before, but what about Wirewood Herald over say, Messenger in the deck? The advantage I see is that it's got a great Moat potential; if you kill it, can I just get the last combo piece I need and kill you? It also grabs Caller of the Claw in the face of removal. I'm not sure if there's a specific elf outside of maybe a Lord that you want to grab with the guy; he does get Crib Swap and Inversion and Colossus though.

Messenger is one of the key cards of the deck. It's the only card that provides CA outside of Survival, and with Survival it's one of the most important cards as well. The deck often wants to play aggressively, and Herald doesn't help in the least with that, as it will just sit there and attack for one instead of getting you real beaters. And since there are no bombs that Herald can fetch (except Caller against Pyroclasm), getting 2-3 random Elves is usually better than getting 1 specific Elf.


On another note, I'm trying out Elvish Lyrist (one main, one in the board). With Survival (and Anger), it gets rid of enchantments for two mana less than Acolyte. It can also come down before CBalance or Standstill, very important. And I've given up on the combo matchup altogether, because I don't want to dedicate 4-5 otherwise "useless" slots to make a horrible pre-board matchup into something like 60/40 maximum post-board, which is still bad odds. I've filled up the space with Magi of the Moon (the Landstill matchup isn't easy), and Viridian Shamans (against Jitte/Swords, Chalice/Trinisphere, Noughts etc).

I was toying around with ESGs, and I have to say, 3 is the right number in a 17-18 land build. ESG allows you to play a turn 1 Survival if you wanted to, but most importantly, it's great against Dazes. In the synergy with the deck, Messenger flipping ESG is better than flipping lands, and ESG also works great in synergy with Survival, acting as either a mana source for discarding, or a discard outlet itself.

I tested 4 ESG but wasn't too happy with the high frequencies of land + ESG. I think 3 is the right number to go. Also, ESG is great with the sideboard against combo, allowing you to drop a turn 1 Teeg/Thorn, which is a great help against ANT.decs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Di

Fecundity is another possibility
...
Pernicious Deed

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Does that work? It seems to me that by the time your critters hit the yard and Fecundity might be able to trigger, Fecundity is also out of play and thus unable to trigger. Same with EE for 3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Does that work? It seems to me that by the time your critters hit the yard and Fecundity might be able to trigger, Fecundity is also out of play and thus unable to trigger. Same with EE for 3.

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It still triggers. It's basically the same scenario you'd get back in Mirrodin block Standard when Akroma's Vengeance wiped out Affinity's board when Disciple was in play, and they'd still lose life.

It's rather irrelevant now because I'm almost dead set on Absolute Law. After the pounding I took from Aggro Loam the other day (Seismic Assault SUCKS. So does DD) having pro-red is absolutely huge. And it just stops all other removal beyond Swords and Snuff Out cold. I've been liking it a lot.

Quote:

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I was toying around with ESGs, and I have to say, 3 is the right number in a 17-18 land build. ESG allows you to play a turn 1 Survival if you wanted to, but most importantly, it's great against Dazes. In the synergy with the deck, Messenger flipping ESG is better than flipping lands, and ESG also works great in synergy with Survival, acting as either a mana source for discarding, or a discard outlet itself.

I tested 4 ESG but wasn't too happy with the high frequencies of land + ESG. I think 3 is the right number to go. Also, ESG is great with the sideboard against combo, allowing you to drop a turn 1 Teeg/Thorn, which is a great help against ANT.decs.

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This is correct. I tried 4 ESG running the 4th over a land, and I ended up opening a few hands without a land but an ESG instead, where they would've been incredible hands if it was a land. I've really liked 3, primarily because of first turn Wren's Run Vanquisher and Priest of Titania. A couple days ago I had a turn 2 win against Goblins with the following hand:

Fetchland
Priest
ESG
Quirion Ranger
Mirror Entity
Wirewood Symbiote
Anger

I was on the play, and opened with the fetch grabbing Savannah, remove ESG and casting Priest. They opened with an Aether Vial. I untapped, drew another Priest, played Quirion Ranger, added GG, returned the Savannah to untap Priest, replayed the Savannah, tapped it casting Mirror Entity, tapped the Priest for GGG, played the Symbiote and went off. It was awesome.

Not saying it'll happen often as you need a lot to do it, but it's a definate possibility now.

This is the list I'm planning on playing in a tournament with first price the trip to the GP tomorrow. I think it really is a nice rogue deck, which is pretty strong overall.

3 Forest
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Gaea's Cradle

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
1 Wood Elves
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

4 Priest of Titania
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Thornweald Archer

4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Mirror Entity

Sideboard:
3 Orim's Chant
3 Krosan Grip
3 Absolute Law
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Choke
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg

I realise I play 61 cards at the moment, but I've only recently included the 3 ESG's and I'm not sure what to cut. From my list it were a Forest and a Fyndhorn, however I feel the rest of the maindeck is pretty fixed as it is. The mana hasn't been a problem yet (from cutting the Forest).

I am however considering to cut a Taiga for another Forest, just to evade non-basic land hate. When you want to enable haste, you already have a survival in play to discard Anger, you can always search for a Wood Elves if you need a Taiga.

I have absolutely no clue what to expect from the meta, so I kept the sideboard I'm most comfortable with, which should be decent in a unknown meta.

Do people have any last minute thoughts, tips or rants?

I am currently testing the deck with 18 lands, two of which are Wastelands. Some observations I made:

- After initially omitting Wood Elves, Di is absolutely right in saying that it's a necessary evil as a one-of. I failed to combo out because of lacking a white source for Entity more than once.

- Wastelands are nice to have, but as this deck has no way of manipulating it's draws I sometimes found myself short of colored mana. I am therefore considering adding a 7th Fetchland to increase the probability to find my colored (read: red & white) manasources.

- Inconsistency issues: some draws just fold to a simple combination of StP + EE whitout applying any pressure.

- Because of my testing results so far I strongly recommend not to play with less then 17 lands. When keeping Cradle you should at least add an additonal fetchland.

I think 17 lands with 3 Heath, 3 Foothills, 3 Savannah, 2 Taiga (yes 2 since you only need it for Anger, but increasing the non-basic manabase screws you over to Wastelands + BtB) 1 Gaea's Cradle, 5 Forest has been close to optimal in my testing.

3 ESG is definitely the way to go. I dropped to 16 lands and 4 ESG and was having problem hitting the 2nd land on turn 2 consistently.

Wood Elves is a must. Not just to grab white for Entity, but if your board isn't threatening e.g. 2 Priest + mana elves + Symbiote + Wood elves, you can go on and bounce woodelves entapping priests to grab a ton of lands, thinning the deck a little. But yeah, grabbing that extra land is crucial since the combo requires a tight 3 mana to pull out infinite mana.

@ Atwa's decklist


I'd cut the Thornweald Archer for another Vanquisher. After a lot more testing, I came to the conclusion being able to block flying is near-irrelevant because if they have a Tombstalker in play they're either going to have to block or race, both of which puts them in a bad position. Vanquisher is absolutely HUGE in almost every single matchup due to him being an undercosted beater with an amazing ability attached. I've had him FoW'd a lot due to this.

Cutting a Taiga for a Forest is the right call here. Given you can find Taiga with Wood Elves, it's not an issue, and gives you better resistance against your own Magus of the Moon.

I'd try to stray away from 61 cards here but if you want to keep it the way it is that's fine. If you're going to cut anything though it'd be the Packmaster, but either way it's up to you.

Your sideboard is solid too, but I really strongly suggest 4 Krosan Grip. It's the most important board slot you have and given the matchups you'll bring it in you want to draw as many as possible.


@ Other comments

- Wood Elves has to stay. We've all talked about it before, glad everyone is in agreement here. I've had a couple games where I had something like turn 2 Priest followed by 1-2 Symbiote and Wood Elves on turn 3, and by turn 5 I pulled every land out of the deck. That is huge in turning your deck into having insanely strong draws the rest of the game and making Messenger 100x better.

- Wasteland is something I don't know if I'll end up running, because it would compete in the ESG slot, and in the process bump my land count up to around 18-19. I really like ESG in the deck, and it's way too hard to find room for both ESG and Wasteland without doing damage to the manabase. Ideally you could, but it'd cause consistency issues.

I went 1-3 drop in the tourney.

I was playing the list posted above except for:
-1 Taiga
-1 Thornweald Archer
+1 Forest
+1 Wren's Run Vanquisher

Round 1: WBGb Threshold??
Game 1:
I drop a few guys and went aggro, he dropped a Confidant with which he revealed a FoW and a Mystic Enforcer, GG.

Game 2:
I take a land with only Cradle as land and mulligan int a hand with no land, a ESG and 2 Fyndhorns. I decide to take the risk and keep it. The first Fyndhorn get's Dazed. I draw a land and the second one also get's Dazed. I never stabalize before the Goyfs come in.

Game 3:
I go aggro again and here the forestwalk proved itself, there was nothng he could do against 2 Champions and a Perfect.

Round 2: Aggro Loam
Game 1: I have a very decent start, but I overextend a little and the guy goes Burning Wish into Perish, clears my board and I die from Crusher beatdown.

Game 2: I land a turn 2 Absolute Law, which he didn't expect, and I managed to keep him off my back for a while, while attacking. But also here he get's Burning into Perish and that's game.

Round 3: Zoo
Game 1: He burns away my champions and beats down with Apes, Nactals and Goyfs, which is too much before I can stabilize.

Game 2: I went for the beatdown route again. Again this deck shines against people stupid enough to play their own forests.

Game 3: Very hard game. He got the quick start and had, 2 Apes and a Jotun Grunt in play on turn 3. He also had Bolted 2 Vanquisers in the same time. I landed a Survival and went for Anger and a Vanquisher, forgetting I needed to reveal an Elf, so I couldn't play it. I should instead just have went for the Magus instead, which would have saved me the game. His next plays were Jotun Grunt and 2 Goyfs. I tried to excape from that sitation by playing Messenger, but I revealed 4 fetchlands. I die.

Round 4: AtN
Game 1: I wasn't sure what he was playing, so I went aggro on him. Turn 3 I swing in for 10 damage and he shrugs. I should have expected what was comming, since he went off next turn.

Game 2: Turn 1 Forest, he went tundra ->go. During my upkeep Orim's Chant, so I couldn't play the Magus I mulliganed into and went of next turn.

After this I decide to drop and visit the dealer, where I spend the next 2 hours.

All in all I feel the deck is very decent. I just got unlucky with my matchups (AnT and Aggro Loam) and made a few mistakes myself, which against the Zoo player costed me the game.