Has anybody seriously tested Greater gargadon instead of needle?? Any results??
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Has anybody seriously tested Greater gargadon instead of needle?? Any results??
I ran a 3/2 split of Gargadon/Needle at the Vestal tourney. I played against exactly zero decks running StP and had not one sweeper cast against me - so I did not get to see its full usefulness. They were interesting but awkward at times (sided in against Goblins, Aggro Loam, and Burn). There were also times where I wished that I had all four Needles instead but that's just how my matchups fell.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Too bad you can't sac enchantments to Gargadon. There was one game where I needed to get a Bridge in my yard and had one in hand with no discard outlet, I had three black mana on the board with a suspended Gargadon - sad face.
I also played with gargadon in my board at Vestal. I did dread return 1 into play which would have ended the game if my opponent didnt topdeck STP. I did get a suspended one into play and got it down to 3 counters on it before I won. In a way its almost like a "ticking clock" for your opponent. They know that if they target all your stuff, you will just sac it to gargadon, which slows them down, which means you should win. Protecting Ichorid from STP is probably the best use Gargadon has.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Indeed?? So you side gargadon against landstill and threahhold beside burn and goblins??Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
Don't you already have a good game vs landstill and thresh?
Of course. Threshold and landstill both run engineered explosives for the most part and swords to plowshares. Wastelands are also quite common to see in landstill, and having something to do with a land that would go to the grave anyways is better than nothing. Gargadon is feeling really good to me so far.....Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Don't you already have a good game vs landstill and thresh?Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
This deck gets some help from the rule changes following M10. LED can be cracked to empty your hand with no draw back. Mogg Fanatic and Qasali Pridemage are less likely to be played because of the changes to the combat step, and Storm Combo decks get slightly worse as they can no longer float LED mana. Yeah, I think LED Ichorid is clearly the biggest winner from these rule changes.
However, the new combat rules weaken Greater Gargadon. No longer can you run an Ichorid into something to take it out and sacrifice.
Do you think so?? I still think that gargadon is very useful...Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur
But most of the times you will have Bridge('s) in your grave, so you already wanted to sac your Ichorid before it does combat damage..
I'm playing this list;
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
3 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [AN] City of Brass
4 [JGC] Gemstone Mine
1 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
// Creatures
4 [DDC] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
2 [TSP] Dread Return
2 [FNM] Deep Analysis
3 [MM] Unmask
1 [ON] Chain of Vapor
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [MM] Unmask
SB: 3 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [LRW] Wispmare
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 4 [TSP] Greater Gargadon
I'm testing 1 Chain of Vapor main instead of the Firestorm Parcher plays.
At the moment, i'm playing an MWS-tourney and when I finish it, I will post my results with this list. 'Till now, I'm very happy with it :smile: .
(ps. I play Ichorid for quite a while now, but mostly in the time when we played Sage over Witness and card x (me: Careful Study) over Unmask. Because I stopped playing MTG for a while, these newer lists are quite new for me, and I've to get used with playing the Gargadon "optimal".)
As far as the rules changes, they aid Ichorid through the weakening of other decks. Any "sacrifice" creature becomes potentially worse, while Fanatic becomes definitively worse. The uses of Gargadon are rarely lessened since you will most often have to sac your creatures before damage is dealt to save Bridges anyway.
The LED matter is largely irrelevant since three life is rarely within the bounds of actual game result determination if you actually get to effectively use an LED.
And speaking as one who has had both Team America and DreadStill decks Stifle Deathtouch from a Stinkweed that would have lost them the game, I am happy for at least that change.
Agreed. I had the same thought. Fanatic going away will be fantastic for Ichorid (Also for my Survival deck.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
i like the list from the opening post, but i always used to run a fatty MD. Is there still place for that? :rolleyes: Plz dont ask my why i want it lol :tongue:
If yea: what to remove?
Thanks, maarten
You already have 4 fatties packed in your standard Ichorid Decklist : Golgari Grave Troll.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
You don't need additionnal fat. The slots are tight, and Unmask is more valuable than a mere beater imho.
There is one free slot I think. In my last posted list it's the Chain of Vapor slot (and in Parcher's list from the opening post, its automatically the Firestorm). So of you want to waste that single free-slot to a MD fattie, please do so (yeah, really, it's a waste of the slot and not even slightly good.. you're better of playing some other card in that space (like chain of Vapor, Firestorm or the 4rd Unmask).Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
I'm really happy with the Greater Gargadon after all my testing games. Go go Parcher for inventing it :laugh: ! I really don't want to go back to the Needles.
I'm running the fourth Thug in place of the flex slot (Unmask #4/Firestorm #1/Chain of Vapor #1). Having a dredger at all times is so imperative, and he's also Unmask/Ichorid fodder. He's been doing good for me so far. I'll still try out some of the other ideas though. I'll test this a lot in the upcoming week in Panama City with lots of alcohol, and drunk beach testing results mean more than ordinary results, so there you go.
+1. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by lolosoon
I see that gargadon is a good boy...i'll try it.
Despite its ability being essentially equivalent to Deathtouch, Stinkweed Imp does not actually have Deathtouch. Unfortunately, this means that it will continue to be a triggered ability and thus remain Stifle-able.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
The fact is that rules changes will not significantly affect ichorid deck working...just that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbrownsound
This new Ichorid list is full of win.
I'm 13-1-2 in matches in the two tournaments I've run the new list.
A few thoughts:
- Greater Gargadon is the most annoying card in the deck for your opponents. They literally can't remove your Bridges without some kind of Crypt/Relic/etc. After several turns of frustration, you beat their faces in with a hasty 9/7. I was never unhappy to see one in my opening hand.
- I was not a big fan of replacing Cephalid Sage with Eternal Witness, but I'm starting to come around. I was able to win the semi-finals by getting back a Gemstone Mine to play Firestorm and kill a Lorescale Coatl and a Sower of Tempation stealing a Narcomoeba while dealing my opponent three crucial points of damage.
- In the second tournament, I ran the fourth Thug over the main-decked Firestorm and moved the fourth Firestorm to the board over a Wispmare. I really don't see the purpose of the singleton Firestorm in the main deck, and I was grateful for the extra dredger/Ichorid fodder all day. In the fifteen matches I played, I only ran into one deck with Leyline of the Void. The card isn't prevalent in most metas, and while it's game over if we can't remove it, I don't think we need to make subpar sideboard choices because we're afraid of a ghost.
...you can dig for the Firestorm with your Witness, beause Firestorm is always almost in your Graveyard...
It helps a lot against Zoo, Merfolk and Goblins, but on the other hand, you should win the first game anyway, so it's generally not needed...
I play the 3rd Dread Return in the random slot, and I'm very happy with it.
My Board plays the 4th Firestorm, because I can't see any sense in the 4th Unmask in the Sideboard.
Both Dread Return and Thug are good replacements for the main deck Firestorm; as is Unmask. I had it there due to a huge contingent of Merfolk and Zoo decks locally. That is the one slot that rotates. I'm really glad to see someone having success with the deck as-is though. As I've said before; with this version, changing even a few cards will screw up the entire way it can/will play.
I still have the room for Wispmare, so I'll keep it. While I agree that Leyline is rarely seen, it is a game-breaker, and Wispmare is very good against enchantments in general. Mainly decks you don't normally worry about containing Propaganda, Ghostly Prison, and/or Elephant Grass. This deck can't always get the mana to pay for a Troll attack through these. Moat is even rarer, but even harder to win through if it hits.
I got a -pro for wispmare, i played my led-less ichorid at a tournament a while ago and got pared again red death. I lose game 1 due to a huge playmistake (shit happens, was first time with ichorid in general :rolleyes: ) And g2 i start, he goes bang leyline i go mine chain of vapor it. I wish i had a wispmare there, next turn he goes badlands, dark ritual replay it, play mogg fanatic... me GG :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Im playing this list atm, only think is that i play a full set of unmasks MD in stead of the firestorm. Great list :smile:
thanks, Maarten
In the "random slot" i run a land...paradise if you want. I don't know what to say...i just feel confortable. At first i started with a 11 lands mana base with 4x coliseum. Then i changed to 12 with no much conviction cutting the 3rd return and i got used to it. Is this suboptimal??
People have been talking about Brainstorm over Breakthrough (not replacing but complementing) in non-LED dredge. I think it's worth considering since it allows us to dig for lands, and puts Narcomoebas back from hand to library, and dredges 3 times when we have a discard outlet.
I'm wondering whether it's a good idea to test it out. Not to mention it's instant speed to boot, making it a ton better. But we're more prone to Chalice@1.
Sorry, but non led dredge has it own thread! :smile:
I know! I was wondering if Brainstorm is good in LED-versions, to draw into lands and to dredge when needed.
I have tested brainstorm in LED ichorid and running 1 alongside the 4 breakthrough's is fine. I don't think you should ever be running more than 1 unless you plan on replacing breakthroughs, but that makes no sense in LED ichorid since you want to win as fast as possible.
I agree. Breakthough means 4 dredged cards and back to the yard, it's a powerfull fuel for comboing off.Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew77
It's good to see someone other than myself doing well in recorded tournaments with this version of the deck.
Three of the last four Ichorid lists from deckcheck.net:
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27427
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27511
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27520
I really like the one with a simple switch of Unmask for Tireless Tribe. In any environment without Painter or Storm Combo it's probably an excellent choice.
I thought the same respect to tribe for unmask. That version is almost mine's with the diference that i run the unmasks and a paradise for a colisseum.
The advantage of unmask is the data about the match in a "blind" metagame.
Has everyone seen this list?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=27638
thoughts?
I playtested it a little, but it just didn't flow that well to me.
What about this coming card??
Burning Inquiry
Cost: R
Sorcery Common
Each player draws three cards, then discards three cards at random.
I have seen it, and other than the fact that it appears on DeckCheck, and runs LED, as basically all the Legacy Ichorid decks that have actually done well in a tournament that appear on DeckCheck do, it doesn't seem to have much going for it. But when your Top 8 is Landstill, 9-color Fish, Aggro-Loam, and Burn, it shouldn't be difficult for any Ichorid deck to winQuote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
First, the new primer is really good. I do want to point out that Brainstorm was minimally touched on and a big part of the card's usefulness was ignored. Brainstorm can be played to good success if used properly. For instance, I've used it to put Narcs back on top of my library to dredge into play. I've hid stuff from Duress (some people opt to leave it in their MD when going first against Ichorid) with it, and it digs 3 cards down to find answers while still giving you +1 CA.
I'm not trying to be critical, just helpful. I know it's not a choice most players opt for when playing this list, but I want people who play this to understand it's not a wrong choice, just an unpopular one. It can be used to good effect, though, in the right metagame.
Pce,
--DC
I remember this deck used to be a DTB. Why isn't it anymore? Is this not a powerful, Tier 1 deck?
It's not played enough to be a deck to beat. And you have to be a good player to get results with it. Parcher is one of the only people Ive ever seen play the deck almost flawlessly on a consistent basis.
Ichorid isn't that hard to play- the deck is incredibly linear. The hardest choice is whether you should mulligan or not, at least Game 1. Playing around hate is the big one though. Especially since there are so many different cards you have to deal with and different answers for each. Needle is good against Crypt but crap against Leyline.
That can't be the only reason though. I think people don't take it seriously or perhaps they just hate to play the deck or whatever.