[Deck] Turbo Eldrazi

Conveniently, for those worried about Blood Moon, Armageddon, Back to Basics, etc, people aren't really playing those cards in the SCG Opens at a very high number, or in the midwest in general. If people are playing these cards, I'd say just play a different deck.

Also, the thing that excites me about the deck is the cards that are played that answer Emrakrul don't really do that against this deck- Jace requires you to have 6 other permanents, and a Clique to remove it from their hand, which is going to be hard to cast after they sacced 6 permanents to his trigger. If they have Karakas, take your free turn, replay Emrakrul, take your free turn, and wipe their board.

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Originally Posted by Masamune

Still you will be eaten alive by Armageddon and Smokestack...If you go waiting for Trinket Mage, you can already sleep in your coffin :\

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Originally Posted by android

I know I'm going to get run out of this thread on a rail but...

Run Life from the Loam.

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People who make suggestions without testing the deck will be shot, bitten, then shot again.

The list of green and blue cards that have been tested is extensive and I JUST MIGHT have started with the most played land based cards out there. Just saying. JUST saying.

LfTL is a good choice. How about Teferi's Response?

@Rock Lee: Is Force of Will enough? Would FoW protect yourself against destruction while we are playing all those combo-lands? :eyebrow:

I've been playing this deck on MTGO for the past week or so and I don't understand the need for Kozilek. I've taken him out and never had a situation arise where I wanted him.

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Originally Posted by Sophocles

I've been playing this deck on MTGO for the past week or so and I don't understand the need for Kozilek. I've taken him out and never had a situation arise where I wanted him.

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“Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance." - W. Clement Stone

Thanks for the complete non-response. Would it be too difficult to just explain what the purpose of Kozilek is?

Kozilek's purpose is to draw cards, while also presenting a body that only costs 10 (8) instead of 15 (13).

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Originally Posted by Sophocles

Thanks for the complete non-response. Would it be too difficult to just explain what the purpose of Kozilek is?

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What he means is; "you're right, the deck is bad and will never top 8 a GP."

Rock Lee gains +2 Trolling Skill

The difference in mana cost, as Rico Suave pointed out, is very important. Sometimes your ramp isn't built up enough to go straight for an Emrakul, but it is built up enough to play Kozilek (remember, we are tutoring these up a large portion of the time). Kozilek alone can win you the game, but even if he can't, he draws you enough cards to build the rest of the ramp for whatever will win you the game. The near uncounterability of his draw 4 is very nice. It can easily put you ahead against decks which are going for parity against you.

I've even used Kozilek just to dig for a necessary Repeal, for example.




peace,
4eak

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Originally Posted by 4eak

Rock Lee gains +2 Trolling Skill

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As I have mentioned several times in the past, I don't repeat myself, nor do I give handouts to torpids. I already address Kozilek's role in my primer, but I just realized that the primer isn't actually linked in this thread. To hopefully sack any further repetition I will link them again here.

Turbo-Drazi Primer
1st appearance Major Event (2nd with ~80? players for 300$ prize) 3 weeks from this post
2nd appearance Major Event (1st with ~50 players for 340$ prize) 2 weeks from this post
3rd appearance Local Event (2nd with 24 players for 40$ prize) 1 week from this post

@ The New and Improved Pi4meterftw

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As I have mentioned several times in the past, I don't repeat myself

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Lulz. That is an ironic and hilarious statement.

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nor do I give handouts to torpids

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Again, your statement is full of win. --- You continue to be a hypocrite.

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[Links]

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Having read the contents of those posts before, and now having re-read them, I must say that an answer to his question is far from complete and well-organized in any of these links. If you had decided to civilly and completely answer the question, you certainly would not have been repeating yourself.

By all means, feel free to ignore posts (even mine) to which you can't find it within yourself to respond constructively. I thought Sophocles' question was actually the perfect place to flesh out, in great detail and organization, exactly how and why one should play Kozilek. I'm sorry you missed the opportunity.



peace,
4eak

4eak is correct. You can win on the back of Kozilek alone (annihilator 4), sometimes forcing a removal spell. At 10cc he is easily castable by turn 4 than Emrakul.

Regarding Trinket Mage, the card I immediately thought of replacing are the TfKs. Ponder works very well with SDT as it lets you see 3 new cards if you opt to shuffle.

Another card I'd like to see tested is Intuition.

Glad to see the Trinket Mage working out for ya :) But obviously, it involved exponential iterations to optimizing the deck within 1 week of playtesting to fully accept x4 TM into the MD avoiding cutting cards 1-1. Must be hard to cut TfK without changing the core of the deck, because the exponential iterations to optimization of decks must have taken quite some time to getting the deck to function with TM.

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Originally Posted by Metalwalker

Glad to see the Trinket Mage working out for ya :) But obviously, it involved exponential iterations to optimizing the deck within 1 week of playtesting to fully accept x4 TM into the MD avoiding cutting cards 1-1. Must be hard to cut TfK without changing the core of the deck, because the exponential iterations to optimization of decks must have taken quite some time to getting the deck to function with TM.

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Mage was in my first few versions of the deck prior to Glimmerpost, but redundancy was more important than filtering at the time. The Italians also stressed I re-test TM with my current version and he ended up being stronger than originally tested. It wasn't actually until my Dartmouth event against my Top 8 Opponent Jeff (forget last name), an ex-Vintage player of renown, who was playing Trinket Mage himself and mentioned his merits in a vacuum that really tipped me towards reinvestigating the card.

With GP, Mage gives you additional time, as well as being immediately functional as a blocker. Between TM and GP, your aggro matchup went from poor to good, which lets you focus on Combo and Wastes for heavy hate.

Sofar as changing the core of the deck, I've gotten the basic function layout solid, and now I don't mind more easily shifting around cards solong as they adhere to those functions. This is by far the most difficult process of tuning a deck since it is intangible, and it seems easiest to just sub cards for cards blindly without realizing their inherent mulitudinous functions.

I'm not impressed with Kozilek's card draw ability. If you're at Eldrazi mana, you probably don't want the random cards. If you want a cheaper Eldrazi, you probably want Ulamog because it gives you access to Humility removal. (In addition, of course, to all the random other stuff you care about.)

Also, since you point out the 2x Emrakul plan in the primer, it's worth pointing out that Tabernacle lets you go infinite with just one Emrakul and Tabernacle, so long as you don't pay the upkeep.

I find that Primeval Titan is a far superior man to Emrakul most of the time. It's significantly easier to cast and almost as lethal. If you can untap with Primeval Titan, you're pretty much going to cast Emrakul on that next turn, and even if you don't, you're gonna get significant advantage. Consequently, I am a little underwhelmed by Candelabra.

I am also not in love with Glacial Chasm. Like Zuran Orb, they're going to set you back significantly on lands, which is actually going to make it difficult to get ahead. I considered Exploration to go with this package, but you don't really want to play enough lands to justify Exploration (probably at least 4 more).

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Originally Posted by Anusien

I'm not impressed with Kozilek's card draw ability. If you're at Eldrazi mana, you probably don't want the random cards. If you want a cheaper Eldrazi, you probably want Ulamog because it gives you access to Humility removal. (In addition, of course, to all the random other stuff you care about.)

Also, since you point out the 2x Emrakul plan in the primer, it's worth pointing out that Tabernacle lets you go infinite with just one Emrakul and Tabernacle, so long as you don't pay the upkeep.

I find that Primeval Titan is a far superior man to Emrakul most of the time. It's significantly easier to cast and almost as lethal. If you can untap with Primeval Titan, you're pretty much going to cast Emrakul on that next turn, and even if you don't, you're gonna get significant advantage. Consequently, I am a little underwhelmed by Candelabra.

I am also not in love with Glacial Chasm. Like Zuran Orb, they're going to set you back significantly on lands, which is actually going to make it difficult to get ahead. I considered Exploration to go with this package, but you don't really want to play enough lands to justify Exploration (probably at least 4 more).

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This could easily be differences in play style, but I tutor Kozilek far more often than I tutor Emrakul. If I have to do a blind tutor with 13 mana eot, I won't always get emrakul. It entirely depends on what my opponent is playing, what removal they have, and what their responses could be. Kozilek will always move the game in your favor significantly, and if you draw candelabras, you can often easily chain into Emrakul on the same turn.

Humility isn't a problem at all. You still go infinite with Humility with 2 Eldrazis at which point it doesn't matter. You also run 6+ removal spells for Humility alone and often 4 random cards will show you one removal spell at least, not to mention you can just chump block with Kozilek and keep drawing. I've tested with both 1 Emrakul/Tabernacle versus 2 Emrkaul for infinite turns, and the 1 Emrakul/Tabernacle plan can barely even be considered since it is not easy to setup at all. The infinite plan is only when you're just barely able to eek out Emrakul but it won't win you the game.

Titan is amazing, but you run a small spell protection package so its really just a giant "hit me" sign. He's good for drawing counters and removal, and stabilizing the game against Rule of Fire decks, but I would never call him superior to Emrakul. Per Casting Cost Emrakul is by far the best creature ever printed with the possible exception of Goblin Welder or Mogg Fanatic back in combat stacking days.

Glacial Chasm is also only there as an oh-shit button. Its not supposed to be a turn 2 drop at all. Its there simply because I don't like losing to ridiculous Goblin/Merfolk/Affinity draws and burn decks or Zoo that packs Price of Progress. As a one-of you can't get much more "I can't die" protection than Glacial Chasm. In games where I do have to play or Crop Rotate Chasm into play on turn 2-3, I make sure I have Glimmerposts and Vesuvas to maintain me at 2-3 cumulative upkeep tops, and the goal entirely becomes find Primeval Titan.

I faced Rock Lee in MWS and I should say: He plays very well and he beat me with this deck a couple of times.
I'm thinking about build it soon.
Anyone knows how I'd find cheap Candelabras to buy? :rolleyes:

Right now, $70 is cheap. There was only one auction on Ebay last I checked.

I would like to see more youtube videos of these, either in MWS or MTGO

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Originally Posted by Anusien

I'm not impressed with Kozilek's card draw ability. If you're at Eldrazi mana, you probably don't want the random cards. If you want a cheaper Eldrazi, you probably want Ulamog because it gives you access to Humility removal. (In addition, of course, to all the random other stuff you care about.)

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Actually, you do want random cards.

The main reason to go for a 10 drop Eldrazi is because 15 for Emrakul is not an option. In these instances Kozilek will provide the "random cards" - such as mana sources - necessary to get Emrakul online, while Ulamog will not. If your opponent has something as simple as a Plow, you'd much rather cast Kozilek (and have a plan for the next turn) as opposed to Ulamog which can be answered and then you're left high and dry with not enough mana or business spells in hand to do anything consequential.

I went up to 4 Primeval Titan, so when I want a big giant monster, I can cast one early or easily. Turn 4 Primeval Titan makes it pretty damn easy to make a turn 5 Emrakul, surpassing the need for Ulamog altogether.

I think the main reason for Kozilek is even if he's countered, you get some gain, at the heavy 10 mana investment. Sure Titan is 6 mana (4 cheaper) but when countered, you net nothing.

However, if Titan isn't countered, I think the 2 lands tutored out at the 6 mana game phase is quite huge. Titan comes out earlier, grabs glimmerposts immediately against aggro, on a big body. And if he does swing again, you are very likely to cast an Eldrazi the next turn. Titan fetching Cloudposts/Glimmerposts/Tabernacle/Eye of Ugin just seems about ready to set up anything. Once again, I think the only drawback to Titan is not giving anything when countered while Kozilek gives you 4 cards to continue even if countered, but I can imagine that if they countered a Titan, means that there's one less counter right?! And this deck should just own the crap out of control anyway. Titan seems quite strong against aggro on the whole compared to Kozilek. Rock, did you test out 4 Titans at one point or missed this testing phase?

Going to 4 Titan hasn't been terrible. I'm not sure if it is the right call. There aren't many games where he resolves and I lose. He is supremely undercosted. He is a sick ramp-builder. I am pretty sure he is not win-more. I didn't remove Kozilek for Titan though. I've actually chosen to remove the Crop Rotations to try the Titans.


peace,
4eak

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Originally Posted by Metalwalker

Rock, did you test out 4 Titans at one point or missed this testing phase?

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I did when I originally added Titan to the deck. I tested originally with 4, since I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. Down to 3, then 2 where I am now.

The problems with high Titan count, is that you need a strong setup to make it work. You suffer tremendously under land pressure, where the deck is already weak. A simple wasteland on Post sets you back 2-3 turns instead of 1-2, not to mention that you're significantly more reliant on Candelabra.

Additionally as Rico pointed out, you are also much more vulnerable to simple counterspells. This is why I mentioned that Anusien likely just has a different playstyle than I do. I mentioned that when I play the deck I play to stall. I play it like a control deck that lets spells resolve, but that has the upmost amount of inevitability. If you wanted to play the deck much more combo-centric style that beat quicker decks but died to counterspells then you could easily go to 4 candelabras and 4 Titans. This would be stronger against aggro matchups, but still wouldn't beat combo. And if you are in a meta with heavy aggro and combo then this deck is an extremely poor choice. Something like Team America would be a much stronger choice.

TLDR: A 4x Titan build is high risk high reward, something this deck doesn't need in a meta where it will be strong.

As with any combo deck, and this deck is combo/control, you can usually build the entire deck functionally through a pyramid type layout. Lots of Mana/Hand Fixing, medium amounts of combo Setup or removal, and then a small amount of finishers. 4 Titan already makes that finisher portion extremely top-heavy, and only makes the deck easier to collapse with small amounts of disruption.

All that being said, If you still anticipate aggro being an issue, 3 titan is possible. 4 just seems very overkill and deck warping.

One of the big reasons I enjoy Kozilek is because it allows the deck to use its Expedition Map and/or Crop Rotation to find an Eye of Ugin with only ~10 mana available. This opens up a wide array of plays that are not otherwise available unless a colorless creature costing ~10 is present somewhere in the deck. As such a single copy of Kozilek being in the deck provides a lot of value to each of those land tutors, as well as Trinket Mage which can find Map.

This isn't to say that the count of Primeval Titan and Eldrazi are mutually exclusive; instead I feel a card like Kozilek serves a unique function that a Titan cannot fulfill due to the fact Eye cannot tutor it up.

Had anyone considered Deserted Temple ?

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Originally Posted by AncientSion

Had anyone considered Deserted Temple ?

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Its honestly debatable as a singleton, since it lets you win without candelabra, but also synergizes with candelabra. Its too early before my next event to do testing with it, but I certainly will in the next week.

Lot of people have started to test the deck online. I am seeing Magus of the Candle, Sylvan Scrying, Explore, Tooth and Nail and Overgrown Battlement in sb. One other that seemed good was Show and Tell plan, although I did not get to count how many Emrakul were there.

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Originally Posted by menace13

Lot of people have started to test the deck online. I am seeing Magus of the Candle, Sylvan Scrying, Explore, Tooth and Nail and Overgrown Battlement in sb. One other that seemed good was Show and Tell plan, although I did not get to count how many Emrakul were there.

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I noticed that, I've played it twice in the 2's Queue's so far (non-gold) on MTGO. I've got to admit that it's a much stronger deck than I originally thought it would be. I'm going to see if I can test the deck, maybe just proxy out the Candelabra's IRL (i know i could borrow them, but for testing, no need to hit the barns)

@Rock Lee
I wish you good luck my friend...
I'm waiting anxiously your report after you kicked all those opp asses with hard cast eldrazis =D
Your list and your skills seen pretty solid IMO. It was nice to have met you in MWS coincidentally

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Originally Posted by Masamune

@Rock Lee
I wish you good luck my friend...
I'm waiting anxiously your report after you kicked all those opp asses with hard cast eldrazis =D
Your list and your skills seen pretty solid IMO. It was nice to have met you in MWS coincidentally

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Thank you!

If you lurk around MWS enough you'll find me for sure. I consider MWS testing the best testing. You can two-fisted test the decks to beat till you're blue in the face, but you can't quantify the random element you'll find online, which will also appear at events. That's what I care about since it covers an entire conceptional deck category most people just dismiss as fringe and therefore nonrepresentative.This is why I laugh so much when people complain about rogue decks filling up a meta. Legacy is a format of rogues decks with a very wide foundation. Assuming that anything isn't rogue is your first sign of weakness. Online training gives good inspirations toward neauvou innovation.

I would seriously consider scapeshift over titan. if you have four mana to spend on a titan that could be four cloud posts coming out with scapeshift.

Is Tooth an Nail for Emrakul and Inner-Flame Accolyte worth exploring? 9 mana only two needs to be green and boseiju-able I like this deck a lot btw! Grats on your performance.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

Thank you!

If you lurk around MWS enough you'll find me for sure. I consider MWS testing the best testing. You can two-fisted test the decks to beat till you're blue in the face, but you can't quantify the random element you'll find online, which will also appear at events. That's what I care about since it covers an entire conceptional deck category most people just dismiss as fringe and therefore nonrepresentative.This is why I laugh so much when people complain about rogue decks filling up a meta. Legacy is a format of rogues decks with a very wide foundation. Assuming that anything isn't rogue is your first sign of weakness. Online training gives good inspirations toward neauvou innovation.

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You're also predicating your testing against weaker, incompetent players who make an uncountable number of play mistakes on that software. To justify your testing against that kind of element doesn't speak volumes about your match-ups, both weak and strong. There really is no need to test against players and decks like that because if your deck is already developed enough to the point of a competitive seriousness, you should already have no trouble in dismissing randomness with a strong foundation.

It's like shooting massive targets from four feet away - sure you'll blast a bull's eye each time, but how many times do you really need to keep practicing from that distance with those kind of targets? Not a good idea. An option? Sure. But MWS testing is by far the weakest way to gauge the power-level of a deck you're developing towards playing in a large event with competent opponents capable of playing much better and tighter than a fourteen year-old trying Soldiers out.

I have a feeling you're falsely benefiting from weaker competition in your testing without understanding that "dumbing" down your play-skill to abyssal levels isn't going to benefit the future of this archetype or the players that enjoy the deck alike.

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Originally Posted by median

I would seriously consider scapeshift over titan. if you have four mana to spend on a titan that could be four cloud posts coming out with scapeshift.

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Titan can put lands adding to lands that already you have, furthermore he can swing with its 6/6 trample body making fetch more lands (of course when opp haven't any removal)

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Originally Posted by Spartacvs

Is Tooth an Nail for Emrakul and Inner-Flame Accolyte worth exploring? 9 mana only two needs to be green and boseiju-able I like this deck a lot btw! Grats on your performance.

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1) If you open hand is Inner-Flame you'll wish throw it in the wall...
2) IMO Tooth Nail sucks... the main idea of this deck is just cast eldrazis either with cloudposts or search it with Eye of Ugin...

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

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I have not enogh money to spent in MTGO to increase skills with competitive tournaments or something like that; about your concern, wich makes MWS left in the corner away, this is our option nowadays, or even Cockatrice. We would face professional players around MWS (wich is very hard to find and polite isn't the main factor there unfortunately) but many times we might fight solitary games making tests against yourself with different decks and strategies. I did this and I could say: isn't so bad but it stands to reason I'd rather MTG (no need to explain lol).

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Originally Posted by Masamune

I have not enogh money to spent in MTGO to increase skills with competitive tournaments or something like that; about your concern, wich makes MWS left in the corner away, this is our option nowadays, or even Cockatrice. We would face professional players around MWS (wich is very hard to find and polite isn't the main factor there unfortunately) but many times we might fight solitary games making tests against yourself with different decks and strategies. I did this and I could say: isn't so bad but it stands to reason I'd rather MTG (no need to explain lol).

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If you don't have enough money to spend on MTGO, what makes you think you can afford a set of Candelabras to create this deck anyhow? It seems like flawed logic, and even though you're using these programs as a platform for testing (which is fine for you if it works), I don't see how you're justifying playing against horrible competition and winning over playing against good players and getting crushed. The only way to learn and get better is to play against people better than you. Cockatrice or not.

You're also using the word "we" as if everyone else shares your sentiment. You've basically summed this entire thing up by expressing how rude and how hard it is to find competent, good players on MWS, yet people somehow continue to resort to it as if it were an outstanding way to test a deck out - which in most cases it isn't.

Besides, this was in regards to Lee's comment that he believes MWS is the best way to test a deck out, which with all due respect I believe to be one hundred-eighty degrees from the truth. Test with good players in real life. Make proxies. Set up meetings with players online. But don't assume that Workstation is going to solve all of your issues, because rest assured if you cannot afford the cards in real life, you certainly wouldn't be able to online where it can be more expensive and you will ultimately have nothing to show for it when you decide to stop playing.

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Originally Posted by Masamune

Titan can put lands adding to lands that already you have, furthermore he can swing with its 6/6 trample body making fetch more lands (of course when opp haven't any removal)

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I'm saying with scape shift you don't need any more lands than the four you have. 4 cloud posts will give you 16 mana which can cast any creature in the deck. the only time that you need want a 5'th is if you need an eye. I think the ability to getmore than 2 lands from your deck into play makes scapeshift better.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

If you don't have enough money to spend on MTGO, what makes you think you can afford a set of Candelabras to create this deck anyhow

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Nothing to do with something

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

It seems like flawed logic, and even though you're using these programs as a platform for testing (which is fine for you if it works)

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So stop to chew out

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

The only way to learn and get better is to play against people better than you

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Agreed

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Cockatrice or not

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Cockatrice IMO and MWS both sucks, but I repeat: I have no options. If I spent money in MTGO I'll not have my Candelabras... did u catch this?

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

You're also using the word "we" as if everyone else shares your sentiment

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It's your viewponit...wherever

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Test with good players in real life. Make proxies

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Not everybody has pleasure to play entire evening. Good to see the MTG softwares anytime. I don't wanna piss my friends off alltime

I just like to play magic with I have in hands. And yes, I win tournaments just playing in MWS.

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Originally Posted by Rock Lee

I did when I originally added Titan to the deck. I tested originally with 4, since I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. Down to 3, then 2 where I am now.

The problems with high Titan count, is that you need a strong setup to make it work. You suffer tremendously under land pressure, where the deck is already weak. A simple wasteland on Post sets you back 2-3 turns instead of 1-2, not to mention that you're significantly more reliant on Candelabra.

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You have this backward. The thing about Titan is it increases your reliance on colored mana, not colorless mana. It's significantly easier to cast a Titan without Candelabra and without a critical mass of Cloudposts. If you are worried about Merfolk going after your Tropical Islands, that's when you can be afraid of Titan.

By the way, I think the proper cut for Titan is not Crop Rotation or Kozilek, but All Is Dust.