I think stoneforge can be taken out from here. It's probably better to just draw the equipment than to fetch it out. That gives us 3 free spots for more beaters.
Exalted seems to be the main win condition.
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I think stoneforge can be taken out from here. It's probably better to just draw the equipment than to fetch it out. That gives us 3 free spots for more beaters.
Exalted seems to be the main win condition.
I disagree, I think that stoneforge warrants a spot, her utility is invaluable.
I also added mirran back, he can just outright win some games (team america being one of them) if he lands.
Looks like Primer goes to DTB - that's good news.
For questions about Stoneforge Mystic - its MUST have in all G/W/x in number of 2-3. This deck doesn't generate CA such as Jace for example, we can only use Dark Confidant (in some builds) or Sylvan Library. Our late game is resolved one of the Swords/Jitte + Eternal Witness which is very useful when graveyards are full of nuts.
Actually think about Thrun, the Last Troll in slot of one Goyf/Qasali Pridemage since U/w Landstills become much more popular. This MU isn't so good because U/w Landstill has much more stable Manabase than BUG landstill so cutting their mana base with tempo (mostly KotR / Wastelands from hand/ sb Life from the Loam) isn't good option. Still testing Troll but in other MU I was disappointed with him.
My actually build:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Terravore
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Eternal Witness
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Windswept heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
//SB(15):
1 Null Rod
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Choke
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Krosan Grip
2 Wing Shards
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Life from the Loam
Cards to testing:
Battleskull - still not great but can be switched in War Rhox Monk Slot - more test needed
Thrun, the Last Troll - very good in Landstill U/w MU, also quite nice in heavy removal MU, but to slow for faster decks
Serenity - if u suspect Enchantress / Stax its card must have on big tournaments can be in Null Rod slot.
Life from the Loam - mostly debatable slot here - works on some random MU with and destroy MU, also vs tricolor controls, works also vs mostly tempo decks without basics.
Last word edit: 3rd Qasali Pridemage is very useful vs actually FOTM tech which is Stoneforge/Battleskull/Equips tempos.
I tend to run 1 RWM in the sideboard as the "green guy to fetch with GSZ that gains life" slot. However, you bring a good point about Batterskull essentially going the same thing, but better. I'll test this puppy out; although I do admit, it's tougher to evaluate because RWM can oftentimes come out Turn 2 - not nearly the case with Batterskull.
That being said, I would run either as a one-of, and Batterskull may end up being a better fit for that slot, since it's also really good against Control, whereas RWM is only good against aggro.
What about Loaming Shaman as a means to recycling Wastelands and Horizon Canopies back in for KotR, in place of 1 of the Life from the Loam? It also serves to help out against g/y based decks, and tutorable via GSZ.
List looks fine. Did you cut 3 Mom's for the Mental Misstep? In fact they do nearly the same thing which is preventing StoP(removal in general) and Lackeys(otp). In these cases MMS works way better as it doesnt have summoner sickness.
But especially when your playing Rafiq, pumping up a Knight and giving him Exalted + Doublestrike and then giving it protection via Mother is a gamewining play. I would go with 2-3 Mom's and 3 MMS and cut the singleton Scrybranger as you dont draw him that often and most of the time you cannot afford to do GSZ into Ranger, plus he gets worse with no Mom's.
You forgot the Wastelands btw :)
has anyone tried implementing Beast Within in the deck? seems good dealing with alot of planeswalkers in the current jace heavy meta
probably 3 swords to plow 3 beast within or 4 STP /2 BW
I have the mono-white Death and Taxes version;
Main Board:
4 karakas
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
10 plains
3 flickerwisp
2 jotun grunt
3 leonin arbiter
3 mangara of corondor
4 mother of runes
3 phyrexian revoker
4 serra avenger
3 stoneforge mystic
4 aether vial
2 oblivion ring
4 swords to plowshares
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of feast and famine
1 sword of light and shadow
1 umezawa's jitte
Side Board:
3 ethersworn cannonist
1 flickerwisp
2 jotun grunt
1 oblivion ring
1 phyrexian revoker
3 runed halo
1 sword of body and mind
3 wing shards
@Fry
Death & Taxes is much more different archetype than Maverick actually.
@SuperProxy
Beast Within is a good card but only in specify MU, that's why this card is a better oblivion ring on sideboard but not always (vs S&T decks for example) as catch' all answer. U almost never want that card vs aggro MU with fast clock because of card disadvantage - putting an other Nacatl into play isn't good option. I think more tests are needed but probably its good card in sb.
@Bzka
Yes I cut 2 Mother of Runes and one Bird of Paradise (from my earlier list) and implement 3 Mental Misstep - and they're great, it can be use as anti-StP and also as Tempo card - countering first drops, discard etc, Mother was Nuts vs aggro MU but it was so-so vs all landstills/Deeds and awful vs combo.
Mental Misstep makes Combo MU winable with Gaddock Teeg MD.
Mostly Terravore is a killer with Rafiq, Mother helps your right but i cut it bacause of MM which are annoying vs StP, first turn mana drop - so just playing my own.
I would never cut Scryb Ranger in so heavy U meta, its great Jace killer, Merfolks Nightmare, and pseudo vigilance with any other beater, anti-wasteland surprise, mana ramp and actually only one real flyer in deck (Elspeth)
@rukcus
About Battleskull vs RWM its all dependent about MU where we want life gainer.
Mostly lifegainer is needed in aggro MU, and Burn where your life matter (also ANT).
Battleskull is slow - even with first turn drop (Hierarch/GSZ for arbor) u can't cast Battleskull in first two turns, so u attack in 4th turn, vs burn it can be just too late. Next MU is Zoo where your life matter - Battleskull can be killed by Qasali Pridemage which is natural enemy for it, next think Battleskull need SFM in play for whole turn this mean that smart burn/zoo player just kill it before u can put Battleskull into play.
All this brings that Battleskull is much worst than RWM, but there is other side of view - heavy removal Control MU where your life doesn't matter but your CA matter - here it shine in long play where you have a lot of mana and can use its bounce ability. The choose is yours actually I use RWM and other game plan vs heavy removal MU.
Loaming Shaman was cut from sideboard since I test a lot of games vs Dredge - mostly I like crypt on instant speed hate - Shaman is just to slow - fetching creature 3cc always KotR will be better, recycling wastelands/canopies from KotR is marginal, mostly after 4 wastelands/2 canopies its gg from one side - so it doesn't help.
@ Fatal
then why even bother mentioning D&T in the primer?
Cool to see GW go to DTB. That GW Survival went a long way.
Mother of Runes: She belongs in the deck, four times. You should start cutting other cards - even StoPs or Noble Hierarchs - if you are worried about your curve getting too low before touching her. You can side her out against E.Ex. / Deed / Wrath decks but against everything else she is the best. Against Zoo style aggro she is a blocker for one Mana, against both Tribal decks she is the complete and total nuts, in the Aggro Control mirror she draws either draws early Removal or dominates the board and against Combo she protects your hatebear(s) from their few solutions.
Gaea's Cradle: Play one of them because of SFM. The upside of equipping and smashing via Cradle Mana with Jitte or even a Sword on the same turn you played the SFM is far bigger than the downside of having a bad land sometimes. Usually it is a good draw anyway.
@Fry
All D&T deck is from definition Mono W, Maverick is GW/x, putting package Mangara + Karakas doesn't make this deck D&T it has other strategy plan plan and clock, even other colors, its like naming decks Mono U control when it has 4 x FoW + 4 brainstorm which is mistake I think. It was mention in primer because I met this version which was similar to Living & Taxes, but this deck had long way of evolution to actual build, better make steps forward, than back right ?
@Tao
Your right about Mother of Runes in middle aggro MU its nuts, but actually MU makes her much worst. Mental Missteps are everywhere, also Landstills with Merfolks we still have very good MU vs Goblins I rather have Mental Missteps than Mom. After a lot of testing any good player can kill Mom on block in resp to giving protection. Versus Metalworker, Grindstone Painter, Affnity its just 1/1 guy for 1 mana which is rather poor. I cut her and putting tempo cards which have similar role. I think this card is MU dependent and also skill intensive in opponent, if he can't handle it u can win also without it. I just think that making bigger clock > protection.
Gaea's Cradle was discussed a lot here, I can judge this card only from mine side of view and I think its just win more card when u have such a big table to take advantage from cradle you mostly already win,but losing in control MU having land which can do nothing is very bad - so win more in my eyes (I was playing it for about 2 months) - also this card works better mostly only with Vial Build, when u have little mana on table.
Maverick with MMS looks like aggro bant=)
Just add a few dazes and a pack of brainstorms.
I cant even understand how come that these decks are different archetypes.
Main difference - It doesn't have Islands so no Islandwalk for Merfolks - easy MU for us.
I agree with both of these points. I tried to cut mother down to 3 from 4, only to realize just how often she makes a difference. She is a great 1 drop that does a lot for this deck. I also like gaea's cradle enough that I put one in. It's not as if i'm searching for with reliquary or anything, but sometimes the mana ramp can lead to some explosive turns. Almost never a dead card, and at worst it's wasteland fodder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I have also cut all blue from the deck. In my opinion it doesn't do enough for this deck's game plan. We also don't gain any valuable sideboard answers for including the small splash. If you need the lifegain from rhox, it can be a batterskull.
Cradle gets a lot better once you finally put batterskull in the deck, maybe it is even worth a slot then.
(22nd land, as it's not a land when you most need them)
Batterskull belongs in the deck if you do the SFM build, that is quite clear, at least imo. But even before Batterskull was printed Cradle was awesome in builds with 4 SFM and 4 KotR. With an active KotR in play Cradle often enables you to play a topdecked SFM + Sword/Jitte + Equip + attack in the same turn.
@Fatal: Mental Missteps do not make Mother of Runes worse. You want to play a one-drop on turn one anyway so it doesn't matter which one of them they counter. The skill argument is also flawed. Against bad players she might be even better but that doesn't mean that she is not also good against good players. No matter how much skill they have they can't Sword your Reliquary or Stoneforge or the creature you want to equip if you have a Mother of Runes in play.
Maybe your right guys, my playtest group become too controlish that's why i still fill better with made changes, that's why Cradle and Mother lost a slot in my build.
I guess this goes here. No I haven't read the thread. I still don't know why I bothered thinking about a GW Aggro deck, but alas here it goes:
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Vengevine
3 Mother of Runes
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Basking Rootwalla
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Savannah
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Craddle
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
SB: 1 Jötun Grunt
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 4 Mental Misstep
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Batterskull
Similar to the old G/W Survival decks, it should beat Zoo and stuff by having more Stoneforges and Goyfs than they have.
I might move the Jötun to the main, dropping a Pridemage. He gives you insane inevitability with Fauna Shaman. I haven't tested the list, but I definitely like how it looks. The SB Missteps are for Control (counters Snare and Swords) and Combo (slows them down enough for us to land a hate bear).
The G/W Survival thread isn't dead yet:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...urvival/page29
The Vengevine version is pretty good in the Meta because without Vengies I would not want to play against any Landstill variant. Your list is quite good I would say. You don't need Maze of Ith, it gets used far too rarely for a land that never produces Mana. I would recommend the Jitte in its slot. It is good vs. all Aggro but also your best Equipment vs. Painterstone.
What are you talking about, a format full of SFM and I want to take OUT the best answer to Swords/Jittes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
This list has actually been insane in the few games I've tested. Rapes creature decks.
I said your list was good ;)
But with 3 Mother of Runes and 2 Qasali Pridemagess as well as 4 Fauna Shaman and 4 GSZ to tutor Qasalis you shouldn't be overly worried about Equipment. Maze and the second Rootwalla are easily saved slot in the long run.
Gaea's cradle, I can see not making it in, but I could never take out maze of ith. That card does so much for this deck. It pretty much goes hand in hand with KotR. In some decks its pretty much my only toolbox.
I agree with Slate- here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Also, if I was overly worried about the Painter match up, I would throw Emrakul and Loyal Retainers in the board. Jitte might be the best equipment against Painter, but I definitely don't think Jitte is good against Painter, as it is extremely slow. I would rather rely on Pridemages, Wastelands, and Swords than getting Jitte online.
The second Rootwalla would be the first card out of the deck.
Yeah, those cards are better if you draw them, but you gotta work with what you have. Cutting Jitte in GW is just flat out bad.
For the Equipment slot I think there is one correct setup atm and that is 4 Stoneforge, 1 Jitte, 1 Batterskull and 1 Sword of Body and Mind. Not playing at least those seven would be a mistake.
I have it from PV's article on channelfireball why to play SoBaM, like 99.9% of the time he is right. It lets you attack through Goyfs and KotRs and gives you a chump blocker for their big guy.This works out quite well and protection from Merfolk and Jace is a nice bonus. SoLaS was never good for me and SoFaI is worse because there is much less red than green.
SoFaI still has the best ability of any of the swords. Especially when it's on a creature like mirran, giving him protection from everything but white (sadly).
Yeah, that is true. Playing an additional target for SFM is okay. Some prefer SoFaI for the value, some like SoLaS for the colors.
But not playing all 4 SFM plus Skull, SoBaM and Jitte seems like a mistake to me.
In the end I found all kinds of splash not worthy, so I came back to straight GW. This allows to play a full package of Horizon Canopy, great with KoR and to smooth the deck. With 4 GSZ, Hierarchs and Cradle it’s common to have a lot of mana, the ideal situation to profit your Canopies.
My current list:
// Lands (23)
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Savannah
4 Windswept heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland
// Creatures (24)
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness
// Spells (13)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
The list is very solid. I really like the Mirran Crusaders. With exalted and equipments they do crazy shenanigans, an equipped Crusader is usually GG: I never missed Rafiq.
The full package of MoR serves well the equipment strategy, they’re never dead.
My 2 cent about the equipment debate. The point is that you always want to see one, while two or more are usually dead early game. I used to play Faerie Stompy, a deck packing 6-8 equipments: its main problem was consistency. The high number of equipments was one of the causes, too often you had too many dead ones.
That’s one of the reason why SFM is so damn good. She tutors for the equipment you want AND she is a creature: at worst, you can equip herself.
In my testing, the best compromise between versatility and consistency is 3 SFM + the 3 consolidated must-have (Jitte, SoFI and SoLS). I don’t think you need the new swords, they’re a bit underpowered and the pros in versatility don’t value the cons of increasing the number of equipments.
Batterskull is another story. It’s extremely valuable in certain matchups, even if slow without SFM. In the end I chose not to maindeck it for the sake of consistency, but it’s more a meta choice. Jitte, SoFI, SoLS and Batterskull is a strong configuration for sure.
I've been eying this deck for quite some time now and comparing deck lists with eachother and this one really apeals to me. My question was what were your main reason for not playing a No Pro package as many other ones do.
More or less the same reason why I don’t run Batterskull – consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnie25
The best shell to run the NO-Pro package is something like Bant GSZ. Here, we have
- no counter to protect your NO
- no way to reshuffle Pro if you draw it
Moreover, against decks with tempo package or Junk it’s not always easy to reach 4 mana – note that I cut everything but Elspeth with a cost greater than 3.
The deck has already plenty of crazy powerful combos by playing all-around reliable cards only.
If you want a 2-card coolness consider SFM + Batterskull before NO-Pro. It costs one slot only, fits perfectly the shell of the deck (SFM equipment strategy with MoR to protect SFM) and in the worst case it’s just slow, not totally dead.
It’s a matter of taste; personally, I think that choosing cool things over consistency is more or less like valuing fun over probability to win.
I don't think Batterskull fits into "fun vs win%". It actually helps the deck much better than Sword of Light and Shadow for the MD. It also single-handedly beats Merfolk without much effort, and that's not to be dismissed. (Jitte on the same token, requires some careful maneuvering and judicious use of -1/1 effects)
My list is nearly identical to Fatal's listed above, with a few random green dorks cut to go for 4 SFM. I think this move is a no-brainer considering how powerful equipment is to this strategy.
The consistency argument I can understand, but isnt a second jitte or batterskull better than the SoLaS or is it rand for its color combi and whats your take on summoning trap sb as a weapon against t1 missteps?
Playing batterskull over the solas is a no brainer indeed as many decks go down when facing one but isnt the thought of running a mirran crusader so far fetched maybe instead of rafiq. Noble into crusader into turn 3 elspeth pumping your crusader to a 6/6 double strike flying isnt all that bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Turn 2 KotR/Crusader are both fast clocks. Crusader is a solid answer to black based removal too, but stills gets plowed. The only selling point for SoLaS is providing protection from both black and white removal, and allowing recursion. The latter is useful with Qasali Pridemages against the mirrors too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barnie25
On that note, I think in this metagame trying to maximize Pridemages is the right call. When I played over the weekend, 4 out of the 6 matches I played feature equipment wars.
Thats why you have to play 4 Zenith, 4 Fauna, and 2 Pridemage. You have to find them some how.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
The point is rather that you should play more Pridemages (who can provide Exalted) rather than GSZ/Fauna Shaman for them in a clutch spot. I can't begin to describe my horrible mana luck with this deck in the past week, but drawing one naturally is almost always preferred to the reactionary tutoring. It's also cheaper on the mana cost. (compare :1::g::w: to :3::g: or :1::g::g::w:)
I'm gonna run a build close to Morte's tomorrow, but I'm afraid it's close to impossible to have a good MU against UW LS ( I ran a build tailored to beat control in my last tourney and got my face grinded in). Maybe I should just give up on this MU, or does anyone have any ideas?
Against UW Landstill, you might want to consider a man-land or two. Stirring Wilderness wouldn't be a bad idea (but it might not be good enough still).
You pretty much want to resolve Elspeth in these control matchups.
This list is a tad different than some of the other ones here, but it follows the same vein. I've been seriously considering cutting the blue splash recently, but it tends to work quite well for me, as it's very rare that I'm forced to play one of my Tropical Islands against Merfolk, which is the only match-up that suffers heavily from the splash.
Anyways. Here's my list. Feel free to critique as you please.
Maindeck
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Scryb Ranger
2x Mother of Runes
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Eternal Witness
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Trygon Predator
1x Rhox War Monk
2x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
1x Elspeth
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Mental Misstep
2x Sylvan Library
4x Wasteland
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Maze of Ith
1x Karakas
4x Savannah
4x Windswept Heath
2x Forest
1x Plains
2x Tropical Island
Sideboard
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Choke
2x Path to Exile
2x Krosan Grip
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Mindbreak Trap
The deck's a bit slower than other lists here, but it tends to work out for me, especially with Mental Misstep included. If you haven't tried it, I strongly suggest that you do, it's a great card.
The SB is kind of thrown together, but it also tends to work fairly well for me. Suggestions on that are especially welcome, if you have any.
Sorry, but I really don't like 2 Moms, it's just too random, especially in a equipment heavy list like yours ( I also wonder about only 2 Mystics) you want the maximum number of Mothers.
The problem isn't that I don't want more Mother of Runes, it's mostly what I would have to cut for them.Quote:
Sorry, but I really don't like 2 Moms, it's just too random, especially in a equipment heavy list like yours ( I also wonder about only 2 Mystics) you want the maximum number of Mothers.
Looking critically, the only cards I would consider cutting would be everything in the blue splash (Rhox War Monk and Trygon Predator, probably going down to 20 lands and up to 3 Qasali Pridemages), one of the Scryb Rangers, the Sylvan Libraries, or the Sword of Feast and Famine. What would you advise to test cutting first?
In addition, the Mental Missteps, Swords, Batterskull, and Mirran Crusader are all rather good at dealing with removal on their own, so Mother of Runes is generally an added bonus, not a necessity. Just something to consider.
As for Stoneforge Mystic, I have never been in favor of playing more than three in a list like this. Still, if you'd like to suggest a third card to cut, I'd be open to testing it. Might end up better, might not.
Thank you for the feedback.