[EDH] Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed (formerly Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon)

- Mind Twist
- Mind Sludge
- Cabal Conditioning
- Myojin of Night's Reach

+ Nihil Spellbomb
+ Withered Wretch
+ Mana Vault
+ Nevinyrral's Disk

The discard spells have been increasingly terrible for me. By the time I can cast my discard spells, my opponents already have an incredible board presence. Myojin of Night's Reach might go back in, but right now I don't think I'll miss him.

There are too many broken graveyard decks out there to be running so little graveyard hate. Tormod's Crypt may be a better add than Withered Wretch, but for now I'm going to try the Wretch.

The deck has been a little too slow recently. I've added Mana Vault to speed it up a little, but there needs to be more acceleration. I need suggestions for good acceleration pieces, mana rocks, etc.

More than ever, I've been needing to sweep the board at an earlier and earlier turn. I think this warrants the re-adding of Nevinyrral's Disk.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

The deck has been a little too slow recently. I've added Mana Vault to speed it up a little, but there needs to be more acceleration. I need suggestions for good acceleration pieces, mana rocks, etc.

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One of my "hidden gem" acceleration cards is Black Market. I find that people don't pack as much enchantment hate as they probably should and that there are plenty of decks out there that just can't deal with it at all. You're already running plenty of removal, so who knows...this might get there for you.

Of course you could always just go down the Thran Dynamo road. Or, pick up a Jet Medallion. Charcoal Diamond is another option, as is Coldsteel Heart.

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Originally Posted by Davran

One of my "hidden gem" acceleration cards is Black Market. I find that people don't pack as much enchantment hate as they probably should and that there are plenty of decks out there that just can't deal with it at all. You're already running plenty of removal, so who knows...this might get there for you.

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Black Market is a card I've liked for a long time, but I think it's too slow for my purposes. I need stuff that can power out a fast sweeper.

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Originally Posted by Davran

Of course you could always just go down the Thran Dynamo road. Or, pick up a Jet Medallion. Charcoal Diamond is another option, as is Coldsteel Heart.

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Those are more like what I'm looking for. I'd prefer cards that give me extra lands since they survive sweepers, but my options are sadly lacking in black.

I'll keep you guys updated when I figure this out.

Dark Ascension changes:

- Liliana Vess

+ Increasing Ambition

For five mana I can either tutor to the top of my deck once, maybe twice, or tutor to my hand once with the possibility of tutoring to my hand twice more for another mana investment. Seems like a straight upgrade.

I'm running a list that's pretty similar to yours with a few differences. Have you considered using Dark Ritual as a 2nd Mana Vault? I've been happy with it. First turn Arena is so good.

I've recently added Grave Titan to my deck and he is such a beast. Most of the decks in my play group are filled with tons of utility dorks, small beaters, and Titan puts a stop to that shit real fast. He is an incredible standalone threat.

Also, you misspelled Nihil Spellbomb. :P

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

I'm running a list that's pretty similar to yours with a few differences. Have you considered using Dark Ritual as a 2nd Mana Vault? I've been happy with it. First turn Arena is so good.

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I hadn't considered it, but that's a good idea. In my playgroup, this deck definitely needs to be able to reset the game faster.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

I've recently added Grave Titan to my deck and he is such a beast. Most of the decks in my play group are filled with tons of utility dorks, small beaters, and Titan puts a stop to that shit real fast. He is an incredible standalone threat.

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I'm kind of in a tough spot with this deck. My playgroup has gone "nuclear" and this deck has become too slow. It's also difficult for it to interact with all the crazy artifacts. I'm not sure where to take the deck from here. Grave Titan seems like it would be a fine inclusion in a slower group, but it's a little too slow for me. We're working on building some decks for when we're tired of wailing on each other with Sharuum the Hegemon, Arcum Dagsson, and Oona, Queen of the Fae. I might use Skithiryx for that, and then I'll be able to decide if Grave Titan is good enough.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Also, you misspelled Nihil Spellbomb. :P

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Thanks. I blame the American educational system for teaching me that Nihil was spelled N-e-c-r-o-g-e-n. :smile:

In hyper competitive playgroups Needle/Revoker seems like it would be super good. You can drop it on Necro to screw Zur or just hit Azami, Arcum, etc. There really aren't a ton of good cards to deal with artifacts except Gate to Phyrexia but that only works in more creature heavy decks.

I'm sure everyone has probably moved on from this deck...but maybe there is some historical perspective:

Other than the "rule of 3rd best", have you had any issues with people hating you out simply because your general has infect? I'm looking for a new direction to take my next EDH deck, and I've always had a bit of a soft spot for "mono-black control"...I'm just mostly afraid Skittles will put a big target on my chest no matter how I play it.

As far as the artifact and enchantment destruction problem - I used to run a Drana list way back when I first got into this format, and I found that if something was a problem for me it was probably also a problem for the other two players at the table. It's nice to be able to answer everything, but this isn't 1v1...so playing politics is a must.

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Originally Posted by Davran

I'm sure everyone has probably moved on from this deck...but maybe there is some historical perspective:

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I wouldn't say I've "moved on." This is still my favorite EDH deck I've ever built. It's about 3/4 pimped out, and an absolute blast to play. It doesn't handle top-tier artifact decks very well, but I think if I added Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker it would go a long way towards fixing that.

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Originally Posted by Davran

Other than the "rule of 3rd best", have you had any issues with people hating you out simply because your general has infect? I'm looking for a new direction to take my next EDH deck, and I've always had a bit of a soft spot for "mono-black control"...I'm just mostly afraid Skittles will put a big target on my chest no matter how I play it.

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I've never been targeted for my general having Infect (that I'm aware of). I usually bust this out to play with random people since it has problems handling my playgroup, and no one has ever complained about Infect. If you're worried about people targeting you for Infect, you could run Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed or Maga, Traitor to Mortals as the general by changing maybe 2-3 cards.

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Originally Posted by Davran

As far as the artifact and enchantment destruction problem - I used to run a Drana list way back when I first got into this format, and I found that if something was a problem for me it was probably also a problem for the other two players at the table. It's nice to be able to answer everything, but this isn't 1v1...so playing politics is a must.

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That's true, but the other two people in may playgroup are rocking Sharuum the Hegemon and Arcum Dagsson. Both are fast combo decks that are light on answers. This deck has a hard time interacting with artifacts. Also, we know each other's decks so well that Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon has lost about all its stealth factor. When I'm playing with strangers, I can sit there and tutor while looking innocent, but my playgroup knows to target me after the second tutor. It's gotten to the point where they know how much mana to keep me off of just by the cards I've played. It's still fun to hear strangers say, "I had no idea he was about to combo." Even after I've played several tutors. :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Kuma

I wouldn't say I've "moved on." This is still my favorite EDH deck I've ever built. It's about 3/4 pimped out, and an absolute blast to play. It doesn't handle top-tier artifact decks very well, but I think if I added Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker it would go a long way towards fixing that.

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Nothing really handles the top tier artifact decks well given the amount of recursion and redundancy that they have. I find that I place a premium on spells that will exile something simply because they can't get it back.

That said, it seems Leyline of the Void might create a problem for a Sharuum player.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

I've never been targeted for my general having Infect (that I'm aware of). I usually bust this out to play with random people since it has problems handling my playgroup, and no one has ever complained about Infect. If you're worried about people targeting you for Infect, you could run Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed or Maga, Traitor to Mortals as the general by changing maybe 2-3 cards.

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I've always wanted to run Xiahou Dun, but he is way out of my price range. Maybe some day I'll be lucky enough to get my hands on one...but until then I'm stuck squarely on the "budget" end of the table. Hell, I'm super excited about the Crucible of Worlds I finally acquired.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

Also, we know each other's decks so well that Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon has lost about all its stealth factor. When I'm playing with strangers, I can sit there and tutor while looking innocent, but my playgroup knows to target me after the second tutor. It's gotten to the point where they know how much mana to keep me off of just by the cards I've played. It's still fun to hear strangers say, "I had no idea he was about to combo." Even after I've played several tutors. :tongue:

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This is the exact problem I am having with my Glissa list, which is leading me here. I love the deck to death, but I'm finding people know my game plan almost by heart. I have to imagine that if someone wanted to they could easily shut me down with a well timed Jester's Cap or some similar effect.

As a follow-up, it seems Skittles is more of your backup win - do you find you end up "comboing out" via Coffers + Exsanguinate more often than you win via slapping a Lashwrite on Skittles and going to town?

Lastly, what do you think of Koskun Falls? Obviously the list in the OP can't really support it due to the low creature count, but it seems like the kind of thing no one would ever expect out of a mono-black deck.

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Originally Posted by Davran

Nothing really handles the top tier artifact decks well given the amount of recursion and redundancy that they have.

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This. I usually need to wipe the board to win, and I'm usually a turn too slow.

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Originally Posted by Davran

That said, it seems Leyline of the Void might create a problem for a Sharuum player.

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It certainly does, but it's not really enough. If I don't have it in my opening hand, I can't cast it fast enough.

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Originally Posted by Davran

As a follow-up, it seems Skittles is more of your backup win - do you find you end up "comboing out" via Coffers + Exsanguinate more often than you win via slapping a Lashwrite on Skittles and going to town?

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It's hard to say. Most of my wins come from infinite mana + Exsanguinate. Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon + Nightmare Lash/Lashwrithe is second followed by Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void. I'd guess the percentages are probably 55%/30%/15%.

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Originally Posted by Davran

Lastly, what do you think of Koskun Falls? Obviously the list in the OP can't really support it due to the low creature count, but it seems like the kind of thing no one would ever expect out of a mono-black deck.

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It's a cute card that no one has heard of that grants an effect black normally doesn't get. That said, I think No Mercy and Dread are better for deterring attack.

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Originally Posted by Kuma

This. I usually need to wipe the board to win, and I'm usually a turn too slow.

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Always a turn too slow to beat the combo...sounds like legacy now! I'm hoping for some more efficient black spells out of R&D, they've been getting dangerously close to something cool lately...seems like they're holding back. Too bad they aren't exercising the same restraint with blue cards...

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Originally Posted by Kuma

It's hard to say. Most of my wins come from infinite mana + Exsanguinate. Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon + Nightmare Lash/Lashwrithe is second followed by Helm of Obedience/Leyline of the Void. I'd guess the percentages are probably 55%/30%/15%.

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Good to know, thanks for the breakdown. I was thinking about running some other equipment (Strata Scythe is at the top of the list) but it seems I should be focusing more on the spell-based kill than poisoning them out.

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Originally Posted by Davran

Good to know, thanks for the breakdown. I was thinking about running some other equipment (Strata Scythe is at the top of the list) but it seems I should be focusing more on the spell-based kill than poisoning them out.

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I used to run four equipment. Sigil of Distinction and Strata Scythe were the other two. Thing is, you have so many tutors that you don't need to run more than two equipment. One to kill them with and one in case they get rid of your first one.

Edit:

- Bloodgift Demon
- Scrying Sheets

+ Pithing Needle
+ Phyrexian Revoker

@Kuma: Is Muse being 1 cheaper than Demon why you took it out instead? I like Demon more because I run Grafted Exoskeleton as well as Army of the Damned, the latter of which can make Muse awkward.

How good have the transmute tutors been for you? I've never been very happy with them and I run business spells in their place. They've been too narrow too often for my liking.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

How good have the transmute tutors been for you? I've never been very happy with them and I run business spells in their place. They've been too narrow too often for my liking.

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Out of curiosity, what are you running in their place?

Also, slightly curious about the removal of Bloodgift Demon. It's a champ at drawing me cards, and it often eats up spot removal that would otherwise be pointed at one of my other dudes.

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Originally Posted by Davran

Out of curiosity, what are you running in their place?

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Necropotence and Ancient Craving.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

@Kuma: Is Muse being 1 cheaper than Demon why you took it out instead? I like Demon more because I run Grafted Exoskeleton as well as Army of the Damned, the latter of which can make Muse awkward.

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Yeah, that's why. I'm not running Grafted Exoskeleton or anything that makes zombies, so there's no awkwardness with Graveborn Muse. Bloodgift Demon's bigger body is totally irrelevant because I never win with combat damage.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

How good have the transmute tutors been for you? I've never been very happy with them and I run business spells in their place. They've been too narrow too often for my liking.

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I don't think the Transmute tutors are narrow.

Dimir Machinations gets:

Grim Tutor, Cruel Tutor, or Praetor's Grasp -> anything
Basalt Monolith and Rings of Brighthearth for comboing.
Oblivion Stone for wiping the board.
Crucible of Worlds for getting Cabal Coffers back.
Phyrexian Arena for card draw.
Ashes to Ashes and Fleshbag Marauder for creature killing.
Yawgmoth's Will because dear God, have you ever cast Yawgmoth's Will?

Dimir House Guard gets:

Diabolic Tutor or Insidious Dreams -> anything
Helm of Obedience and Leyline of the Void for comboing.
Nightmare Lash and Lashwrithe for killing with Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon.
Nevinyrral's Disk for wiping the board.
Graveborn Muse for card drawing.
Solemn Simulacrum for mana acceleration.
Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed for graveyard recursion.
Infernal Darkness for winning.
Barter in Blood, Damnation, and Mutilate for creature killing.

tl;dr: Both Transmute tutors can find something to do pretty much whatever the deck wants to do. They're no Demonic Tutor, but they're not narrow.

Tutor -> Tutor is way too durdly IMHO and they can't get Coffers or Urborg, basically. That's pretty much why I don't run them.

Grim Monolith seems like a strict upgrade over Basalt Monolith. Even if it isn't, for some reason I'm not seeing, why not play both?

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Originally Posted by Hunding Gjornersen

Grim Monolith seems like a strict upgrade over Basalt Monolith. Even if it isn't, for some reason I'm not seeing, why not play both?

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Basalt Monolith works favorably with Rings of Brighthearth to produce "infinite" colorless mana. Grim Monolith doesn't accomplish the same thing, so I suspect that's why it isn't here.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Tutor -> Tutor is way too durdly IMHO and they can't get Coffers or Urborg, basically. That's pretty much why I don't run them.

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You may be right. I've been known to have an unhealthy love for Transmute cards (favorite mechanic). As for getting Cabal Coffers and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, are there any cards that cost five or less that get them that I'm not running? I guess there's Liliana Vess, but she's kinda weaksauce.

Tutor -> Tutor is usually fine if you already have Cabal Coffers. The mana isn't as big of a deal.

I should probably take another look at Necropotence. I cut it because it put a bulls-eye on my forehead and almost guaranteed I lost to a Mindslaver with all the tutors I run. Anymore though, I could probably use the help.

I never liked Ambition's Cost and Ancient Craving. When I ran them they usually sat in my hand because the deck has tons to do with four mana.

I'd love to see your list, Amon Amarth.

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Originally Posted by Hunding Gjornersen

Grim Monolith seems like a strict upgrade over Basalt Monolith. Even if it isn't, for some reason I'm not seeing, why not play both?

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Basalt Monolith combos with Rings of Brighthearth to make infinite mana. Grim Monolith doesn't combo with anything I can run. Grim Monolith might be worth it for the acceleration. That's the age-old debate with this deck: are the mana artifacts worth it when you're trying to be subtle?

I still haven't decided on that one, but Grim Monolith will definitely be added if I choose to go with mana rocks.

Sure. There are a few slots that are in flux. Ancient Craving, while playable, is the first thing to get cut when I pick up Grim Tutor and Imperial Seal. Shizo and Sheets are both pretty good and have proven their worth but I think they might actually be better as Swamps. I don't want to have to lean on Urborg (or Tutor -> Urborg) too much.

Commander: Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon

Lands: 37
23 Snow-Covered Swamps
Polluted Delta
Bloodstained Mire
Verdant Catacombs
Marsh Flats
Ancient Tomb
Scrying Sheets
Dark Depths
Bojuka Bog
Cabal Coffers
Strip Mine
Buried Ruin
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Vesuva
Deserted Temple

Ramp: 11
Dark Ritual
Sol Ring
Wayfarer's Bauble
Grim Monolith
Basalt Monolith
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Coalition Relic
Gilded Lotus
Gauntlet of Power
Caged Sun

Planeswalkers: 1
Sorin Markov

Tutors: 12
Imperial Seal
Grim Tutor
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Collusion
Beseech the Queen
Praetor's Grasp
Insidious Dreams
Expedition Map
Cruel Tutor
Increasing Ambition

Card Draw: 4
Sensei's Divining Top
Necropotence
Promise of Power
Phyrexian Arena

Equipment: 3
Lashwrithe
Nightmare Lash
Grafted Exoskeleton

Creatures: 10
Sundering Titan
Steel Hellkite
Bloodgift Demon
Graveborn Muse
Myojin of Night's Reach
Grave Titan
Vampire Hexmage
Precursor Golem
Solemn Simulacrum
Nirkana Revenant

Removal: 7
Innocent Blood
Chainer's Edict
Barter in Blood
Damnation
Decree of Pain
Oblivion Stone
Nevinyrral's Disk

Recursion: 3
Yawgmoth's Will
Crucible of Worlds
Beacon of Unrest

Utility: 5
Rings of Brighthearth
Imp's Mischief
Tainted Strike
Nihil Spellbomb
Mind Twist

PEW PEW: 6
Exsanguinate
Mindslaver
Infernal Darkness
Army of the Damned
Helm of Obedience
Leyline of the Void

Greaves seems redundant but its great for when you're going for a Suicide Morphling (Angel Gambit for old-school players) tactic. It saves you a mana and shroud is incredibly important against Treachery-esque effects, which are brutal. Exoskeleton is OK. Sometimes good, sometimes meh. The problem is that decks in my playgroup aren't very tuned so it's pretty much me curbstomping a table which is satisfying for me but it can get old for them so I have to switch it up more often than I'd like. I never find myself in need of giving anything else infect because Skithiryx has already crushed them. Forever alone.

I run about every good mana rock I can get my hands on. It allows me to be explosive early game while maintaining a Coffers-powered late game. Coalition Relic is surprisingly good here, always happy to see it. Dark Ritual is pretty good too. I thought that it would be dead mid/late game but it's always been good. You always want mana. Late game it fuels Yawg's Will and mid-game it powers out bombs.

Ancient Tomb is awesome. More acceleration. I've always been very happy to see it. Auto-include. Dark Depths is fine. It's the only land that doesn't produce mana and does a pretty good job of that with Urborg. There is very little opportunity cost to running it.

Precursor Golem is... I'm not sure. Good with Tainted Strike but I haven't drawn it but once or twice. Hexmage is the shit. Other than the aforementioned combo with Dark Depths, she kills Planeswalkers that need to die right now i.e. Tezzeret.

Imp's Mischief is OK. I don't see a lot of Time Warps in my playgroup so it's not as good as I'd want it to be. Tainted Strike can let Nirkana Revenant one-shot people out of nowhere or just give one of your opponents creatures infect to reduce your clock a turn.

I run Army of the Damned because it's sweet. Also, Zombies. It's a great attrition card and its awesome to ramp out on 3rd turn. Also, Zombies!

@Kuma: Looks like you got them all. The only thing I can think of to tutor for Coffers that isn't Black is Expedition Map and you're already playing that. It's cool. I have this thing for Muddle the Mixture. We're pretty much super happy together.

This is definitely my favorite EDH deck because it is flavorful and powerful. It FEELS like a Black deck and it's very good too. Skeleton Dragons? Fuck yes.

Necropotence: When I was first making the deck I used your list as a blueprint for my own and your concerns regarding Necro made sense to me. I've never been Slavered with Necro out but damn if it doesn't make me a target, which sucks early on if I'm mana light. I'd probably rather have 2 Phyrexian Arenas instead mostly because most people don't understand how very, very good a turn 3 Arena is. Everyone knows how good Necro is and will target me pretty hard. All it is is just a better Arena with more card text. I'm not doing anything degenerate with it, relatively speaking. However, Necro is just too strong to not be played. These are minor complaints and this is the fucking Skull. I think you should try it out (again).

I think that's most everything.

@Amon:

Vampire Hexmage has always been one of those cards that I'm hesitant to play with, so it's good to hear that you're having good results with it. Have you also considered Hex Parasite? While Tezzeret does need to die, the Parasite allows you to deal with all kinds of token-based permanents while sticking around himself.

Precursor Golem is an interesting choice, especially given that you really only have one combat trick to use with it. Does it end up as a mana efficient chump blocker more often than a lethal infect creature?

Have you ever used Tainted Strike to mess with someone else's combat, or do you find that you save it to alpha strike with one of your own guys?

You mentioned rarely redirecting a Time Warp effect with Imp's Mischief - have you ever considered Temporal Extortion? Extortion effects are always risky, but shaving 20 points off of someone's life total for 4 mana can't be all that bad. Besides, this is a black deck...so high risk high reward is very on theme.

I try not to get too cute with the deck and I'm always playing with how much of a control deck I want to be and how much a combo deck I want to be. Hexmage is mainly in here for the Dark Depths combo the other interactions are secondary but still pretty important- it would suck to get Nicol Bolas-d into the ground. I REALLY like Hex Parasite and I run it in my Sharuum deck for PW control. Here, it's too slow to activate DD.

Precursor Golem is definitely more often a chump blocker. I've only naturally draw it with Tainted Strike... once, I think. You never want to tutor for either card except in very odd situations. He's OK. 5 mana for 9 power with next to no drawback is pretty good. I would like to test him a bit more but he is very cuttable. I recently took out Mutilate and All is Dust. Either of those might want to find their way back in.

It's about 50/50 using TS on my own guys or my opponents. If a 6 power dude is hitting one of my opponents then I can take out 1 person with a naked Skithiryx on my turn.

Temporal Extortion isn't very good. For four mana all you get is a Fireball for 20-ish. It's cool but not something that this deck is looking for.

Avacyn Restored changes:

- Sundering Titan

+ Griselbrand

I can't remember the last time Sundering Titan did anything for me. Unless someone can suggest a better cut, he's gone. Griselbrand is an insane, ridiculous card that should be in almost every black EDH deck.

Have you tested him yet? It seems like unless you land him really early the table just gangs up and curbstomps you. It also makes Bribery insane. Untapping with GB and winning is pretty good though.

Also, I have no clue as what to cut.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Have you tested him yet? It seems like unless you land him really early the table just gangs up and curbstomps you. It also makes Bribery insane. Untapping with GB and winning is pretty good though.

Also, I have no clue as what to cut.

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I've tested Griselbrand in other decks, but I can't say I've been ganged up on just for having him in my deck. It certainly makes Bribery insane against me, but I'm running many more ways to get him out of my deck than my opponents are running Briberies. If it ends up being a problem, I'll cut him, but I think there's a lot of upside here.

I guess if I'm going to run Griselbrand, there isn't a compelling reason not to run Necropotence. I'll try to fit it back in.

I haven't played with him yet but it seems like Bargain would make all sorts of bells and whistles go off in peoples heads. Well, I guess it's obviously dependent on board state... so I'm just theorycrating. I'm being cautiously optimistic of Griselbrand because I don't want to get caught up in the hype. That being said I'm sure I'll try him, probably cutting Precursor Golem or something. I've been happy with Titan and I have weaker cards that could get cut. I've also (finally!) acquired Seal/Grim so I'll update the few changes I made tonight-ish.

M13 changes:

- Griselbrand
- Beacon of Unrest

+ Diabolic Revelation
+ Liliana of the Dark Realms

Griselbrand was Griselbanned. Beacon of Unrest hadn't done anything for me as long as I could remember.

Diabolic Revelation should be amazing with all the Cabal Coffers mana we generate. If I were designing a planeswalker for this deck, it would look a lot like Liliana of the Dark Realms. She finds us our ever important Snow-Covered Swamps while adding loyalty, kills a creature or turns Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon into a one hit kill with her -3, and her ultimate gives us a fuckton of mana. Consider my "no planeswalkers" rule officially broken.

Lili 3.0 is about as good a card as it gets for this deck. The fact that it can Lake of the Dead your lands or make Skithiryx enormous, or axe a dude is gravy.

I wasn't too hot on Diabolical Revelations but the more I thought about it the more I've come around. If you untap after you cast it, you win. Or on the spot if you've got enough/infinite mana. Insane.

Major Changes:

- Night's Whisper
- Sign in Blood
- Promise of Power
- Mind's Eye

While I'm not convinced that cutting Promise of Power and Mind's Eye is correct, Night's Whisper and Sign in Blood needed to go. The usual line of play with those cards was Snow-Covered Swamp, Snow-Covered Swamp, Night's Whisper/Sign in Blood, discard at end of turn. They're better late game topdecks, but my EDH group is pretty fast. I didn't need to be running sorcery-speed Catalog in this deck.

- Wayfarer's Bauble
- Solemn Simulacrum

These cards weren't providing enough acceleration. Running these over mana rocks was a big reason why this deck was a turn too slow for my playgroup.

- Nihil Spellbomb
- Withered Wretch

I'm pretty sure Nihil Spellbomb will work its way back in, but Withered Wretch was always a pretty weak answer to graveyards.

- Crucible of Worlds

My Cabal Coffers hadn't been getting destroyed as much recently, making Crucible of Worlds unnecessary.

- Dimir Machinations
- Dimir House Guard
- Insidious Dreams

Everyone in this thread knows my love of tutors and the Transmute mechanic, but these were easily the three weakest tutors in the deck. I didn't like revealing the card I tutored for to my opponents, and I didn't like paying :1::b::b: to tutor for a limited subset of my deck. Insidious Dreams was slow, major card disadvantage, and awful if it was countered. It also lost a lot of power with the draw spells getting cut.

- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
- Mindslaver
- Fleshbag Marauder
- Scroll Rack
- Steel Hellkite

These cards were weak. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief was a huge mana sink. Steel Hellkite was too slow and unreliable. I don't think I ever blew up a permanent with it. The last time I used Mindslaver on someone was a year ago. Fleshbag Marauder was an overcosted Innocent Blood, and I never lived the dream recurring it with Sheoldred, Whispering One. Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed was a better target anyway. Scroll Rack was nearly impossible to use correctly and redundant in a deck with this many tutors.

+ Jet Medallion
+ Worn Powerstone
+ Sword of Feast and Famine
+ Thran Dynamo
+ Magus of the Coffers
+ Gilded Lotus

This is a much better acceleration package. Sword of Feast and Famine, not only doubles your mana, it turns Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon into a two-turn clock. I'm not 100% sold on Magus of the Coffers yet, but I've been loving the rest of them.

+ Sigil of Distinction

I decided to give this card another try. I wanted to be able to go Skithiryx aggro if I needed too, and with the addition of colorless mana rocks I thought it might be better than last time. Not 100% sold here either.

+ Royal Assassin
+ Visara the Dreadful

I wanted to be able to better control the board without having to wipe it clean. I haven't got either of these out yet, but they should give me more options for dealing with creatures.

+ Exquisite Blood
+ Sanguine Bond

I felt like the deck needed another combo kill, and this seemed like the logical choice. Exquisite Blood is useful on its own, as we often end up paying a lot of life over the course of the game. I could see it being a little awkward to damage an opponent once the combo is set up, so not 100% sold here either, but I like the idea.

+ Decree of Pain
+ Hellfire

The deck definitely needed more sweepers, and these are the two best that I wasn't running. These have been amazing for me.

+ No Mercy

I thought this was worth another try. In the only game I got it out it saved me about 20 damage and a hit from Pathrazer of Ulamog

+ Karn Liberated
+ Sorin Markov

I'm breaking the no-planeswalker rule again. With the extra removal, I'm going to see if Karn Liberated is worth it again. Sorin Markov protects himself, and his other two abilities are very useful in EDH.

+ Sadistic Sacrament

This card is very strong against combo decks as you can remove all their combo pieces.

Opening post updated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuma

Major Changes:

+ Decree of Pain
+ Hellfire

The deck definitely needed more sweepers, and these are the two best that I wasn't running. These have been amazing for me.

---

What about Dregs of Sorrow? I realize it can be a little spendy as a wrath effect, but it also acts as some pretty serious card advantage with a mana doubler online.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Davran

What about Dregs of Sorrow? I realize it can be a little spendy as a wrath effect, but it also acts as some pretty serious card advantage with a mana doubler online.

---

I forgot about Dregs of Sorrow. I'll probably put it in if I decide I don't like some of the new cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kuma

Major Changes:

- Night's Whisper
- Sign in Blood
- Promise of Power
- Mind's Eye

While I'm not convinced that cutting Promise of Power and Mind's Eye is correct, Night's Whisper and Sign in Blood needed to go. The usual line of play with those cards was Snow-Covered Swamp, Snow-Covered Swamp, Night's Whisper/Sign in Blood, discard at end of turn. They're better late game topdecks, but my EDH group is pretty fast. I didn't need to be running sorcery-speed Catalog in this deck.

- Wayfarer's Bauble
- Solemn Simulacrum

These cards weren't providing enough acceleration. Running these over mana rocks was a big reason why this deck was a turn too slow for my playgroup.

- Nihil Spellbomb
- Withered Wretch

I'm pretty sure Nihil Spellbomb will work its way back in, but Withered Wretch was always a pretty weak answer to graveyards.

- Crucible of Worlds

My Cabal Coffers hadn't been getting destroyed as much recently, making Crucible of Worlds unnecessary.

- Dimir Machinations
- Dimir House Guard
- Insidious Dreams

Everyone in this thread knows my love of tutors and the Transmute mechanic, but these were easily the three weakest tutors in the deck. I didn't like revealing the card I tutored for to my opponents, and I didn't like paying :1::b::b: to tutor for a limited subset of my deck. Insidious Dreams was slow, major card disadvantage, and awful if it was countered. It also lost a lot of power with the draw spells getting cut.

- Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
- Mindslaver
- Fleshbag Marauder
- Scroll Rack
- Steel Hellkite

These cards were weak. Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief was a huge mana sink. Steel Hellkite was too slow and unreliable. I don't think I ever blew up a permanent with it. The last time I used Mindslaver on someone was a year ago. Fleshbag Marauder was an overcosted Innocent Blood, and I never lived the dream recurring it with Sheoldred, Whispering One. Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed was a better target anyway. Scroll Rack was nearly impossible to use correctly and redundant in a deck with this many tutors.

+ Jet Medallion
+ Worn Powerstone
+ Sword of Feast and Famine
+ Thran Dynamo
+ Magus of the Coffers
+ Gilded Lotus

This is a much better acceleration package. Sword of Feast and Famine, not only doubles your mana, it turns Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon into a two-turn clock. I'm not 100% sold on Magus of the Coffers yet, but I've been loving the rest of them.

+ Sigil of Distinction

I decided to give this card another try. I wanted to be able to go Skithiryx aggro if I needed too, and with the addition of colorless mana rocks I thought it might be better than last time. Not 100% sold here either.

+ Royal Assassin
+ Visara the Dreadful

I wanted to be able to better control the board without having to wipe it clean. I haven't got either of these out yet, but they should give me more options for dealing with creatures.

+ Exquisite Blood
+ Sanguine Bond

I felt like the deck needed another combo kill, and this seemed like the logical choice. Exquisite Blood is useful on its own, as we often end up paying a lot of life over the course of the game. I could see it being a little awkward to damage an opponent once the combo is set up, so not 100% sold here either, but I like the idea.

+ Decree of Pain
+ Hellfire

The deck definitely needed more sweepers, and these are the two best that I wasn't running. These have been amazing for me.

+ No Mercy

I thought this was worth another try. In the only game I got it out it saved me about 20 damage and a hit from Pathrazer of Ulamog

+ Karn Liberated
+ Sorin Markov

I'm breaking the no-planeswalker rule again. With the extra removal, I'm going to see if Karn Liberated is worth it again. Sorin Markov protects himself, and his other two abilities are very useful in EDH.

+ Sadistic Sacrament

This card is very strong against combo decks as you can remove all their combo pieces.

Opening post updated.

---

Take that staples! I really like the idea of cutting lots of these cards. I will definitely have to reevaluate a lot of the cards I'm running.

I don't think it's correct to cut Promise of Power. It's so good. I've always been happy to see it.

I feel the same way about Magus. It's too fragile and I rarely untapped with it. I'm never going to put it in again.

I'd rather play Sword of Fire and Ice than Sigil. It's just so meh. They're both 2 turn clocks but Sword is good even without loads of mana.

I really want to try out Royal Assassin because it's hilarious. Maybe even Visara too.

Never played with Sanguine Bond but don't really care for the combo. There are enough in the deck, in my opinion.

Decree is fucking crazy awesome. It's so good. Draws me a ton of cards lategame or cycles to kill tokens. I'm going to buy a Hellfire because that card is sweet too.

I never played No Mercy but I might try it out. Seems good with 40 life.

Sorin always does work for me. It kills stuff or puts someone to 10 so I can finish them off with Exsanguinate or random beats. Karn has been growing on me and now I'm thinking about slotting him in just about everything. That guy was hard for me to evaluate but I've really come around on him now.

Sadistic Sacrament is definitely something I've considered recently. It utterly destroys some decks. Kicking it is hilarious.

Still no Necropotence?

Just a few thoughts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

I feel the same way about Magus. It's too fragile to do anything. Never put it in again.

---

I think you're probably right about Magus of the Coffers, but since Cabal Coffers is the best card in the deck and I've never played with Magus, I want to give it a try.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

I'd rather play Sword of Fire and Ice than Sigil. It's just so meh. They're both 2 turn clocks but Sword is good even without loads of mana.

---

If you cast Sigil of Distinction with seven or more mana it's a one turn clock. Granted, I wasn't happy with the card before, but I'm going to play a few games with it and see if I still feel that way. Maybe Strata Scythe would be better.

I've never considered Sword of Fire and Ice. Only thing I don't like is I can pay one more mana to have an equipped Strata Scythe and one-shot people. If I'm one-shotting people, drawing a card or two isn't relevant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Never played with Sanguine Bond but don't really care for the combo. There are enough in the deck, in my opinion.

---

Once again, I suspect you're right. After I play some more games we'll see what sticks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Sadistic Sacrament is definitely something I've considered recently. It utterly destroys some decks. Kicking it is hilarious.

---

Yeah, if I exile Rings of Brighthearth, Darksteel Forge, and Mindslaver form the Arcum Dagsson's player's deck, he can't win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Still no Necropotence?

---

Every deck in my playgroup runs Pithing Needle and Phyrexian Revoker. The Arcum player runs Mindslaver, and I can't afford to lose to a single Arcum activation. I haven't had trouble keeping my hand full or having things to do on my turns. Necropotence seems like a liability.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Just a few thoughts.

---

Much appreciated. :smile:

I can certainly see the the logic in not playing Necro in that playgroup. Sigil seems a bit redundant with the Lashwrithe/Nightmare Lash in the deck unless you just want more copies. Your deck is sporting quite a bit of removal; do you ever feel like you have too much at times?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

Your deck is sporting quite a bit of removal; do you ever feel like you have too much at times?

---

I haven't yet, but right now my playgroup has Maelstrom Wanderer, Jhoira of the Ghitu, Karador, Ghost Chieftain, and Arcum Dagsson. Maelstrom Wanderer and Karador, Ghost Chieftain both run in the high 30's creatures, Jhoira of the Ghitu runs incredibly powerful creatures, and Arcum Dagsson needs to be killed on sight.

It's entirely possible that there's too much removal for other playgroups, but I haven't felt like I'm overdoing it in mine.

Return to Ravnica changes (and some other things too):

+ Underworld Connections
+ Crucible of Worlds
+ Nihil Spellbomb
+ Promise of Power
+ Mind's Eye

- Magus of the Coffers
- Exquisite Blood
- Sanguine Bond
- Sigil of Distinction
- Sadistic Sacrament

Underworld Connections is probably better than Phyrexian Arena since we run Deserted Temple and Candelabra of Tawnos. I felt like I cut from the deck a little too heavily, so some of the previous cards made it back in.

Magus of the Coffers was super awkward to have when you want to be blowing up all the creatures every couple of turns. The Exquisite Blood/Sanguine Bond combo turned out to be awkward and unnecessary. Sigil of Distinction was also extraneous with the other equipment. Yes, I can't one-shot people currently unless I have six or more Swamps, but I wasn't making enough non-Swamp mana soon enough to warrant Sigil of Distinction as a tutor target. I'll keep an eye on it though. Sadistic Sacrament was only strong against the Arcum Dagsson deck in my playgroup, and I run other cards that are also strong there. For now, Sadistic Sacrament is out.

Cards that were considered:

Necropolis Regent
Grave Betrayal

Necropolis Regent makes Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon a two-shot the first time he kills someone and a one-shot every time thereafter. He's also pretty scary on his own and makes every other creature vicious very quickly.

Grave Betrayal seems more cute than practical, but it's a very strong effect and pretty much all I do on most of my turns is kill creatures.

I want to fit these cards in, but I couldn't find room.

Cards on the bubble:

Nevinyrral's Disk
Royal Assassin
Visara the Dreadful
Sorin Markov

Nevinyrral's Disk is too slow to be a reliable board wipe. The only reason I'm thinking about keeping it in is because I want another way to hit non-creatures besides Oblivion Stone. It can also slow opponents way down.

I haven't had a lot of opportunities to play with Royal Assassin and Visara the Dreadful, which makes them difficult to evaluate.

Sorin Markov isn't bad, but I don't win with damage, making his -3 mostly irrelevant. He doesn't usually survive long enough to do his -7. His +2 isn't bad though.

Updated first post.

- Graveborn Muse
- Visara the Dreadful
- Sorin Markov
- Nevinyrral's Disk
- Sheoldred, Whispering One
- Liliana of the Dark Realms
- Strip Mine

+ Silent Arbiter
+ Duplicant
+ Kagemaro, First to Suffer
+ Seal of Doom
+ The Abyss
+ Vedalken Orrery
+ Snow-Covered Swamp

All Graveborn Muse did for me was draw one card and then die. I never wanted to tutor for Visara the Dreadful. I never ended up casting her either. I did have someone pull her out of my deck with Bribery and whoop my ass. I hate cutting Nevinyrral's Disk, because it deals with artifacts and enchantments, the deck's biggest weakness. However, it's terrible at its job because it enters the battlefield tapped. Whenever I needed to kill an artifact or enchantment, I found myself tutoring for Karn Liberated, All is Dust, or Oblivion Stone instead. I never used Sheoldred, Whispering One for much of anything. The Abyss is a much better card anyway. Even with the added board sweepers, it's too hard to protect planeswalkers. None of Sorin Markov's three abilities did anything the deck needed to do, but cutting Liliana of the Dark Realms really hurts. I couldn't design a planeswalker that fit the deck better, but the problem was she'd get me a Snow-Covered Swamp and then die. That's not worth it for four mana. I hadn't needed to blow up a land in a long time, and if I do I still have Karn Liberated. Everyone who's played the deck knows how important it is for a land to be a Swamp, so I made the switch.

I can't believe I wasn't running The Abyss. It's one of the strongest cards in the deck and it's amazing after a board sweeper. Silent Arbiter is a good way to keep people from attacking me, and it even survives The Abyss. Duplicant is another fantastic blocker that survives The Abyss while giving me another out to Gaddock Teeg and Iona, Shield of Emeria. Seal of Doom is an attempt to keep people from attacking me just because I have no blockers. It hasn't been great so far, but I want to keep trying it. Kagemaro, First to Suffer is a solid blocker and another board sweeper. He's been a bad topdeck when I had one card in my hand, but he was also really solid when I had six. More testing is required. What's better than board sweepers? Instant-speed board sweepers. Vedalken Orrery makes all my board sweepers better while helping to hide what I'm up to until it's too late.

Cards on the bubble:

Royal Assassin
Underworld Connections
No Mercy
Jet Medallion

Updated first post.

Trying out some new things:

- Royal Assassin
- No Mercy
- Underworld Connections
- Jet Medallion
- Nihil Spellbomb

+ Animate Dead
+ Life's Finale
+ Brittle Effigy
+ Mimic Vat
+ Portcullis

Royal Assassin was awful. He'd either die before he got to use his ability or he'd be too little too late to stop me from getting stomped. No Mercy was useless far more often than it was useful. It backfired spectacularly such as allowing a Maelstrom Wanderer player to use me as a sacrifice outlet so he could keep cascading, and another player Mindslavering one of my opponents and having him swing 30-ish power of creatures at me to destroy them. People also took advantage of the fact that if you kill a player who has a No Mercy in one attack, none of your creatures are destroyed. There were a couple of games where it was useful, but it wasn't good enough. Underworld Connections was massively inferior to Phyrexian Arena, another card I'm becoming disenchanted with as the speed of my playgroup increases. I almost always had to choose between drawing a card or having enough mana to do what I wanted. Like Extraplanar Lens, it flips a switch in people's brains that makes them want two-for-one you since you gave them an opportunity, no matter if that's the right play or not. Jet Medallion only reduces the cost of like 26 spells in the deck. I think something like Coldsteel Heart would be better and still terrible. I didn't want to cut Nihil Spellbomb, but there are other cards that fulfill the same purpose, and I only needed it for one guy who I don't even play with every week. If anyone has a better idea for a cut, I'd love to hear it.

Since I destroy so many creatures, I decided that I should take advantage of the graveyards full of awesome sauce. Animate Dead does this without costing me life and can be tutored for with Shred Memory. Life's Finale was added as another board sweeper (can you have too many?) that also greatly increases the power of Animate Dead. Most games I lost were due to Gaddock Teeg, Iona, Shield of Emeria, Blightsteel Colossus, Avacyn, Angel of Hope, or Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre. Brittle Effigy can answer all these cards for good. Mimic Vat seems appropriate with all the creatures currently infesting my playgroup and all the board sweepers I've added. I think it will be really strong. What's better than blowing up all the creatures? Making sure they never get to attack. Portcullis will help keep the creature decks from overwhelming me, and is an incredible card both early on and after a board sweeper.

I'm wondering though, if Beacon of Unrest isn't just better than Animate Dead. I'll keep it in mind as I test Animate Dead

Cards on the bubble:

Sword of Feast and Famine
Pithing Needle
Seal of Doom
Kagemaro, First to Suffer

Updated first post.

EDIT:

- Phyrexian Revoker

+ Torpor Orb

Phyrexian Revoker did great work, but it was hard to keep it out with all the board sweepers I run.

Torpor Orb shuts off a multitude of high value cards in EDH such as Palinchron, Eternal Witness, and the Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker/Pestermite, etc. combo to name a few of the dozens of staples it works on. The only cards it shuts off in this deck are Duplicant and Portcullis. I can live with that.