[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

After seeing Veteran Explorer for the first time in the Commander precon, I started working with something like this too -- my first thought was Cabal Therapy. My second was Lotus Cobra. I'm on my second or third draft of a list now, and have been testing it a bit throughout development. Here's my current incarnation:


1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

2 Pernicious Deed

2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
2 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Lotus Cobra
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Promise of Power
1 Regrowth

1 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Island
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Maze of Ith
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold


After crafting the core of the deck, I realized that I was going to have a lot of mana at my disposal, and that I should probably have something to do with that mana. After a while, I decided on Batterskull as my primary mana sink. It's a good sized recursive beater/blocker that once you hit 8 mana becomes very hard to stop without Krosan Grip. Promise of Power has been nothing but amazing. Since I'm running Batterskull and Baneslayer, I usually don't care about the five life lost, and drawing five cards is exactly what this deck wants to do. The triple black is rough, I'll admit, with Sun Titan and Baneslayer also hanging out, so I either need to find a better way to deal with that problem or switch out some of my threats. I run Titan Oath in vintage, so I knew going in that Sun Titan + Pernicious Deed was going to be one of the primary engines of the deck. That is just brutally unfair once you get it rolling.

I can't speak enough praise of Lotus Cobra. Granted, it doesn't always survive. But it mandates immediate removal, or things are going to get stupid. Two landfall triggers + the lands coming into play untapped off of Explorer is pretty silly, and can lead to some just broken starts. Sequences like t1 Explorer t2 Cobra t3 Therapy, sac for flashback, fetch land, Sun Titan (or insert bomb here) are fairly common, and a lot of decks just crumple under that.

Grave Titan is not working at all, for me. At this stage I'm contemplating a Wurmcoil Engine in its place, as I want another big bomb of some kind, but 3 Sun Titans or 3 Baneslayers just feels unnecessary. The mana base in general needs some help...probably cutting some of the 1-ofs and working from there is a good idea.

Gifts is questionable. A singleton island + cobra shenanigans makes getting the blue mana a joke, so that isn't a problem...and with Explorer, I'm not really hurting my mana base for it either. Gifts DOES feel gross when it resolves. Making piles like E. Witness, Cabal Therapy, Regrowth, Sun Titan is pretty brutal, because this deck makes enough mana to where it doesn't care if you have to regrow a Titan. I had a singleton Maga, Traitor to Mortals in the deck in its initial iteration, which along with Volrath's Stronghold and an Urborg (which I since cut, but will probably find its way in again), enabled a Gifts-powered late wincon. In the end it felt clunky, though, so I trimmed it out for a bit more beating power. At the same time, though, I feel that if I put in a Wurmcoil or two, I have enough lifegain that I should just smooth my mana base out entirely and put in another Promise of Power or two. The fact that Gifts is an instant while Promise is not is holding me back a bit -- blocking with an Explorer to get two lands and trigger two landfalls off Cobra lets me Gifts during their turn, even when completely tapped out previously, which is pretty hot.

I thought about Green Sun's Zenith...it was in here originally, and then I took it out. The reason is that green doesn't have many great wincons...and especially not when compared to Sun Titan or Stoneforge Mystic, both of which it is unable to get. Green Sunning for Explorer, Cobra, Knight, and Witness are all still pretty sweet, don't get me wrong. I'm going for more of a Big Rock type of feel, though, and frankly the other colors just offer better finishers in my opinion. Since I'm running Stoneforge (and Volrath's Stronghold), I'd rather have more actual creatures as opposed to the virtual copies that GSZ enables, and since with Cobra I burn through mana a lot quicker than non-snake versions, I'd rather have genuine card draw as opposed to topdecking and praying. Although I will note that this deck topdecks pretty well, as a result of the massive land thinning through Explorer + fetches.

Thoughts and comments are appreciated.

This is a pretty interesting list, and I don't wanna judge it without testing, but I also feel the Grave Titan is not needed there, how about replacing it with a third deed? 2 feels a bit light to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tao

No he isn't. If you'd care about the opponent's Mana you wouldn't run Veteran Explorer in the first place.

---

What does that even mean? You are not playing an otherwise good creature that has great synergy with (what seems to be) the key card in your deck. "Not caring" about your opponents resources is a great way to get run in legacy. In addition to the synergy with the Veteran the Mindcensor stops Stoneforge Mystic (she occasionally hits the board in legacy), fetchlands (also sometimes played), and some corner cases (combo, tutors, merchant scrolls, etc.).

I really like promise of power and may end up trying that out. It seems pretty good.


I initially had 12 spots in my sideboard dedicated to the UW control matchup. I was running 3 vindicates, 3 choke, 4 hymn to tourach and 2 thrun. Somehow this still wasn't enough. One matchup I had the UW player on a choke lock down but he had enough swords to plow/path to exile to keep my board clear while being able to beat down with mishras and so forth it was disturbing that he won that game.

Lately my game plan against the heavy control decks has been to board in bitterblossoms. My new plan is to take out 4x vet explorer, 1 sun titan, 3 deeds and put in 3 bitterblossoms, 3 duress, and 2 thrun. I haven't had a chance to try this out, but i'm pretty sure they can't beat bitterblossom. STP stays in because it takes out mishra and stoneforge if they play it. Deed isn't very good in this matchup unless they are playing heavy stoneforge plan.

@Arianrhod: I like your list it has some fresh ideas that I may try out. I really don't like the stoneforge mystic plan though because you're running deed. One of the strongest points of this deck is being able to deed all of the time, and i really mean all of the time. Gifts though just seems too cute and pretty difficult to consistantly pull off, to me not worth splashing.

So, I've tested a little, and have to agree that the Mystic Package was kinda average. On the other hand I was surprised in a positive way with Gifts, I've been able to pull it off most of the times, resulting in some backbreaking piles. I would definitely consider upping the landcount, I had to mull quite a few times.

Cutting the Stoneforge's allows for 5 more slots, I would consider running 2 more lands (maybe 1 is enough) and 1 more witness (just can't have enough), which leaves 2/3 more slots open, which could either go towards more discard, the 4th deed or another wincon(why hasn't elspeth been considered so far?), maybe even a recurring nightare.

I like that you mention Elspeth. I initially had her in the deck becuase of the synergy with deed, but I found her to just be too clunky and more of a card that is a "win-more." It was kind of cool to have a flying Titan though.

I'm currently testing this, now:


4 Pernicious Deed

2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

2 Baneslayer Angel
2 Sun Titan
2 Eternal Witness
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Veteran Explorer

2 Gifts Ungiven
4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Promise of Power

2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Island
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Swamp
1 Volrath's Stronghold


Have yet to see Elspeth in a game. Promise of Power continues to impress, and is up to a 2-of, now. I'm also up to the full 4-deeds, and I'm trying a bit more Rock-ish approach as opposed to the Junk version that I started with. I don't think more hand distruption is really necessary main deck...the Therapies are doing pretty good work. Elspeth might be a pretty good call -- theoretically, it can not only provide blockers and a win condition of its own, but it can also provide sacrificial lambs for flashback and Intent. I'll post again once I've got some more legwork in with this version.

RE: Aven Mindcensor: I like the idea of it, but I'm not sure how good it would be in practice. If you try a Mindcensor version, you'd probably want both Wastelands and Path to Exiles in your deck somewhere -- the problem, of course, is that you're getting a bit dependent on the Mindcensor sticking around.

I really like the way your list is shaping up. Some further points (yeah, I know I'm picky, but it has been quite some time since a deck caught my interest as much as this):

-) I'm not too sure the split between cobras and witnesses is right, I think with the full playset of cobras the deck is shifting too much towards mana development while becoming too gas light.

-) I don't like the Urborg. I think any G-based dual should be fine there, maybe even one Tropical Island to have access to U via fetchies (might not be needed).

-) I don't think you need 2 Promise of Power: You don't want to draw it too early, you usually want to resolve it once a game, and you have some ways to tutor it up.

-) Where did the Regrowth go? I like the piles which were Witness - Regrowth - Bomb - Bomb :(

-) How about somehow squeezing 1 Pulse or 1 Vindicate into the MD to have a catch-all answer for Gifts piles or as Diabolic Intent targets?

That's fine -- I'm also pretty interested in this archetype, so the discussion is greatly appreciated!

-) At the same time, though, Cobras have an extremely low life expectancy. Many legacy players know Cobra from times when it did degenerate things in either Standard or Vintage, so they aren't going to make the mistake of letting it live. Extras can help, if you need them, and worst case scenario are lightning rods for removal. Also, Witness is recursable by Sun Titan. So even though there are only two Witnesses, I think that is enough -- you can sac them and bring them back for extra value. Also, I'm a little skeptical of making the deck too reliant on the graveyard. It's walking a fine line between using the graveyard and being really hurt by graveyard hate out of the board.

-) Urborg was in at first, then it was out, now it's in again. The value that I like with Urborg is that you can burn out of fetchable lands in a real hurry in this deck. Urborg lets you still get value you out of them, in addition to smoothing over the mana costs between Baneslayer/Titan and Promise. At the moment I'm pleased with it, but that's subject to change. I'm always wary of cards that come and go in my lists a lot.

-) (Combining these) The Regrowth became the 2nd Promise of Power. I agree that you want one to resolve per game. More than that is usually overkill/dangerous. And besides, if you can't win after drawing 5, there's probably something else seriously wrong. In my experience, though, I just haven't been finding it as a one-of. Two feels like the right number. You usually want to use Diabolic Intent for other purposes, although frankly I could see bumping Intent up slightly to a 3-of, since I never seem to find it either, although that may just be RNG messing with me. Also, in my experience thusfar, drawing it early isn't really a detriment. Promise can happen on turn two if you get the right hand -- you aren't necessarily getting full value out of it, but you can always discard extra fetches and the like.

Regrowth is a sick card that enables broken piles. The problem that I have with it is that at the moment, Gifts is just here for sheer value, as a card advantage machine that can do silly things with Sun Titan and enable opponents to make mistakes. I've been steadily leaning more and more towards cutting it, in fact, rather than making it better. The problem is that I don't know what other good draw spell I'd want. Maybe Harmonize? That would then allow the Island to become a dual and smooth out the mana base a bit better. Alternatively, if something degenerate can be done with Gifts, then I'm all for that. I love Gifts (and Intution) as a card, and I love doing backbreaking things with it. But without some kind of combo to be enabled, it feels really lacking. Maybe that's just because I'm too used to Vintage and doing piles like Time Vault - Voltaic Key - Regrowth - Yawg Will.

-) I like this idea a lot actually. I haven't had the dreaded Jace problem arise yet in testing, but I know that it's out there lurking and waiting to be a problem. I'd probably go Vindicate if I had to choose, since Deed already wipes out token piles, and Vindicate can get rid of troublesome things like Maze of Iths, which as a Wasteland-free deck, we are ill-equipped to deal with otherwise. At the same time, I'm leery of putting in a 9th removal spell -- I would probably cut one Deed for a Vindicate if anything. I'll test it and see what I think.

At this point, I really feel like I want one or maybe two more bombs main deck, probably Wurmcoil Engines, because this deck can make the mana to drop it and it completely wins games by itself. At the same time, I wouldn't mind running 5-drops instead, since 5 is a very convenient number for Lotus Cobra. After doing some more testing, I can also say that I like Elspeth. She came down a few times playing against a friend, and flying 10/10 knights are a pretty solid way to win a game. She's also another way to get around Moat, which is an annoying card to deal with (although Deed helps).

I'm starting to give some thoughts to the sideboard, as well. Mainly I think control, storm/high tide, and generic answer cards is the way to go. This deck has a pretty sick matchup against a lot of the field -- my friend and I are testing on Cockatrice, so he's just building archetype after archetype and throwing them at it. Fish has a hell of a time beating this deck -- they can get close sometimes, but it takes them long enough that I have time to get out a bomb, and they can't really answer Baneslayer or Titan/Deed. For that matter, they have no way to interact with Lotus Cobra, which we quickly found was -huge-. Merfolk HAS to counter Cobra, or they just die. This deck will pump out bomb after bomb if they don't, and fish cannot keep up. Explorer is also rather a house -- it's amazing how few decks have how few basics to get. It's not as much of a group hug card as it looks like on the face of it, although I still wouldn't run Wasteland. He's also tried U/W Tempo against it, and 12 counters main isn't enough to reliably hold this thing down. That said, I remain concerned about the GerryT/Levin style control decks with a whole pile of counters. We're set up for Thrun, but he's known technology that, while they have a hard time, they are learning how to deal with.

For now, I'm going to start with something like the following:


4 Thoughtseize
3 City of Solitude
3 Pithing Needle
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Rule of Law


It's rough and ugly, but in my experience so far it should answer the problems.

I'm not sure rule of law is a good thing against ... any deck really. It's especially bad against blue decks. I'm down with the city of solitude though, could be pretty good. The more I look into the intiution/gifts portion of the deck it leads me to whole different deck. GWU Titan Gifts... lots of broken things can be done with it.

oh my. I ... LOVE ... Gifts Ungiven.
I played Gifts for Therapy and Witness a couple of times but totally forgot it existed. Props for bringing it up. Also note that Gifts on Recurring Nightmare + Witness + Regrowth + (Sun Titan, Meloku, Wurmcoil) is a big game. Your list looks interesting and I am sure brewing with this has a lot of potential.

Had a big reply typed up but I lost it because I'm not used to my Naga yet. Oops. Here's the five minute version as opposed to the 15:

Gifts is back in. I tested Harmonize instead, and it felt terrible.

Haven't tested Recurring Nightmare yet. Looks like a bad Sun Titan, but I feel I should test it before deciding that.

Built a bant Titanic Gifts deck to test out the concept. Quickly realized that it turns into a sort of Mythic Conscription deck from a year or so back, and that Explorer is useless in it. Exploration, on the other hand, may prove useful, especially on concert with Cobra, which, since you wouldn't run Deed, could in theory work. I'll also point out that both halves of Thopter/Sword are reanimate-able with Titan and fetchable with Gifts/Intuition. Food for thought. If you want to develop it, keep me posted...my attention will be here for the moment, though.

Team Italia is an even to bad matchup, due to mass hand obliteration and effective spot removal. This deck doesn't mind topdecking, but I'm finding that hand destruction in the t1-3 range is devastating, because it can stop you from using what business you have. Worried about RUG Thresh and NO RUG for the same reason (although removal + counter is probably better for us in the long run, with Thrun out of board).

I still don't feel like the bomb configuration is right. I tweaked a few numbers and am currently running 3 Baneslayers/2 Titans. Both bombs being white is seriously annoying me, since the deck wants green early and black late, with white as a splash color. Ideally I think I would want a 2/2/2 split of three different types of bombs. Baneslayer and Titan are both amazing in this deck, but I don't know what the other two should be. Part of me wants to say Abyssal Persecutor...god knows we have the sacrifice outlets for him, but I'm not sure if just a 6/6 flample beatstick is good "enough." I think that we want techy dudes more than beatsticks (although granted Baneslayer and Titan aren't exactly anemic).

Also, Elspeth is amazing. I foresee some matchups where she'll get boarded out, but she's a house against aggro and a viable wincon in and of herself. Plus, she's a four-drop, which is easily manageable with Cobra + Explorer trigger.

That's all for now -- I didn't get much testing in today due to having jury duty all day. Going to proxy up my latest build and take it to FNM to bash skulls with against some of the local legacy heads. I'll let you guys know how that goes -- if anyone has ideas in the meanwhile, I'll be checking periodically throughout the day tomorrow.

One thing that could be considered in the game ending slot is Vampire Hexmage + Dark Dephts. Both are in black, both are recurrable with Titan, Hexmage obviously has use on it's own. Might turn out to be utter crap though.

Please keep us updated on how your testing goes.

On the Bant Titan build: In this case you could very well include now the Stoneforge package, I might work on that too :)

Alright, I got some more testing in online today, and I'm pretty much done tweaking for the day before my testing-fest tonight at FNM. For reference, here is my most up-to-date list that I will be playing tonight:


2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Sun Titan
2x Kokusho, the Evening Star
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Qasali Pridemage

3x Pernicious Deed

2x Gifts Ungiven
4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2x Promise of Power
3x Diabolic Intent
4x Cabal Therapy

1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
2x Windswept Heath
1x Island
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains


I did a little trolling of Gatherer, and it reminded me that Kokusho exists. I don't think we could ask for a better bomb for this deck (other than Titan, obv). It's a massive evasive flyer, and we run more than enough sac outlets to pop it and drain for lethal (or to stay alive). With the third pairing of bombs in the deck, Gifts feels a -lot- better now.

I'm testing going Knight-less at the moment, and I'm trying Qasali in those spots instead. I think that it is probably going to be a mistake, but has pretty good synergy with Sun Titan and I think it's worth testing. If I don't like it, I'll go -2 Qasali, +2 Knight and worry about where to squeeze in the third later. The list is getting a lot tighter now. I'm still dicking around with the sideboard. At the moment it looks like thus:


2x Thrun
3x City of Solitude
3x Extirpate
4x Thoughtseize
3x Innocent Blood


Innocent Blood seems like it would do good work against reanimator or show/tell or NO -- it both annoys them and advances our own position at the same time...even against standard aggro decks, it might be useful.

On the Bant Titan side of things, I sketched out a preliminary list for that. I'm not sure if I should put it in here or not...it's going in a pretty different direction and probably deserves its own thread, in all honesty.

Speaking of Kamigawa dragons, Yosei, the Morning Star + Recurring Nightmare just locks the hell out of your opponent. I think you should squeeze one of each into your list (Gifts and Intent can both tutor Nightmare).

Greater Good may be a good way to get the chain started too, or Ashnod's Altar.

I really like the Lotus Cobra starter chain. Have we considered Birthing Pod yet? It's really slow, but it has the potential to be really amazing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by eq.firemind

Speaking of Kamigawa dragons, Yosei, the Morning Star + Recurring Nightmare just locks the hell out of your opponent. I think you should squeeze one of each into your list (Gifts and Intent can both tutor Nightmare).

---

I never even thought of this. Brilliant. I'll spend the next little bit trying to work that in before I head out...I'll let you know what I take out for it before I leave.

Well that was easy. I took out 1 Kokusho and 1 Eternal Witness. That drops me to 1 Witness in my deck total, but Nightmare does similar things, and Nightmare + Witness seems good. May change it later, but for the moment I'll run this and see how it goes.

WAY back in the days I won the Source Tourmanent with Nightmare/Yosei as the main kill. The deck was really goo back then but Survival was legal so you can't copy much from it.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ll=1#post90518

I still think I want to rather play this in a control shell but I am also very curious how your more combo-ish approach goes.

If you are playing Gifts, Deep Analysis as a 1of seems a good choice for drawing extra cards. Is it worth ?

@Kiblast -- I think that is going a little too much into blue. I'd rather keep it just as a very slight splash and not try to go four color.

@Tao -- I think that's actually pretty analogous. Granted that Survival was a very powerful engine, but through abusing Diabolic Intent and Gifts, this deck has a lot of the same vibes. I missed the Rec Sur era, unfortunately (I think I would have loved the deck), but I did get my roommate hooked on Bant Survival for a year or so until the banning, and played it when he couldn't make an event. This deck definitely has a lot of the same feel to it as playing with the Survival engine. I don't view my list as more combo-oriented...that said, I certainly don't complain about having a combo finish for random unfair wins.

@rukcus -- I think that the Pod is way too slow for this. Although, I'll grant that I didn't give Recurring Nightmare full consideration either, and it took me trying it to be completely sold on the idea. Build one up and try it out; I'd love to hear the results.

-----

I played probably 6-8 games of legacy between rounds at FNM tonight, vs U/G Vengevine, Burn, and Berserk Stompy. Not exactly the best gauntlet, but that's what people brought with them...and they're all faster decks which is better in-between rounds. I dropped 1 of those 10 games. Titan + Deed won me several of those singlehandedly, and the rest of the time Baneslayer + removal was good enough. I did win one game off of flying beats followed up by saccing Koksuho to flashback Therapy, which seems like a good synergy. With Rec going, too, Kokusho suddenly gets very scary, as he is entirely capable of Draining an opponent clean out of the game. Obviously that's a very late-game tactic, while Yosei wins much faster, but it is a very powerful tool and worth keeping in mind.

The Qasalis were absolutely terrible. I'm currently +1 Gifts (to 3) and +1 E. Witness (to 2) because I wanted to emphasize the combo slightly more, and because I still find myself running out of gas sometimes. Also, Witness + Rec is just effing dirty. No other way to describe it...it's grossly unfair. A 2nd Witness definitely feels right...I'm less certain about the 3rd Gifts at this point. I'd love to have room for 3 Knights and maybe 2 Finks, but I don't see that happening at this point. Currently, my threats are -all- clustering at the 5/6 spot, and while I like having a good number of bombs, I worry that I'm becoming TOO dependent on the upper end of the curve. At the same time, I do also like the fact that my dudes are all vastly more powerful than everyone elses'. Usually it seems like I can rely on Therapy, spot removal, and Deeds to successfully hit late game, at which point I can just take over. That said, though, I would definitely feel better if I had some more early-game oomph to tide me over till the late game. It seems to be working at the moment, though, so I guess I probably shouldn't worry about it.

At this point I'm planning on trimming the 3rd Gifts for a Knight of the Reliquary, and potentially finding room for a second/third if at all possible. Beyond that, I think the mana base needs a little work, and the sideboard needs to exist beyond theory. I'm fairly comfortable with the maindeck of my list, though, and I would encourage you to try it and see how it works...I definitely have some preconceived biases, so outside opinions are greatly appreciated.

Could you post your current list? I think that latest changes confused me a bit, cause you talked about cutting witnesses while you hadn't any in the decklist above ;)

That would be because I apparently forgot to type them out. Oops.

Current list:


2x Baneslayer Angel
2x Sun Titan
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
4x Lotus Cobra
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness

3x Pernicious Deed

3x Gifts Ungiven
4x Swords to Plowshares

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

2x Promise of Power
3x Diabolic Intent
4x Cabal Therapy

1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Marsh Flats
2x Windswept Heath
1x Island
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains

I'm afraid you're slowly drifting into danger of cool things land there. So many finishers? Really? I'd rather run a few more cards which allow to survive the early game. We already have a pretty good lategame.

Although you guys seem to have moved on to a Gifts-version, I still wanted to share some thoughts on Tao's last list. Unfortunately, I could not do real testing on MWS, but there are some things that struck me nonetheless. Generally speaking, I was satisfied with the deck overall.

First of all, although blind Therapies weren't that useful due to the more casual nature of my MWS games, I feel that you really need them as sac outlets. Its also a great weapon against the continuously growing popularity of Stoneforge Mystic amongst other things, so I am really against cutting them.

Furthermore, I always had the feeling that the deck went a bit too slow which was because even with Top in play and continous fetching, I was not able to find the win cons. Although it that point I was mostly in control of the games, I would wish for a faster way to win, as to not give the opponent time to recover. I would therefore advocate the inclusion of the previously mentioned Diabolic Intent to up the count of win cons.

About the "Hymn-problem": Why not play Leyline of Sanctity from the Sideboard? The additional discard and removal should give you enough tools to combat enchantment hate in any form.

All in all, I would propose the following changes to the MD:

+2 Diabolic Intent
+1 Grave Titan

-1 Thrun, the Last Troll
-1 Recurring Nightmare
-1 Pernicious Deed

Again, these observations are only from limited MWS play and I will keep toying around with it.

For the pure Control shell (Witnesses, Deeds, no Cobra):

Gifts Ungiven is a great addition to the Control build. It can just make a pile of 4 strong cards which are good in the current situation which I do about half the time. The other times it sets up synergies like Cabal Therapy and finds our inevitability with Recurring Nightmare.
I don't like Diabolic Intent because a tutor is meant to add consistency to the deck but unfortunately the card itself is inconsistent. Gifts is always good and often enoug broken.

Another strong card that blue gives us is Jace TMS. He is ridiculous but that is commonly known.
I tried a 4-color-build for a while just to include Swords to Plowshares but ultimately I dismembered White and now I use bad black Removal instead. White has just nothing useful to offer except for StoP if you play this type of deck.

For the problem that Combo decks bring in leyline of Sanctity against us the best solution I have (that is not only useful in 1 matchup) is Nature's Claim. It destroys Leyline quick enough and the lifegain is 99% irrelevant.

@phillip/in general -- with the shifting goal of the deck into more of a traditional gifts rock/rec sur concept, I think I'm going to try switching out Baneslayer and Promise of Power. Into what, I'm not quite sure yet -- I'm thinking that I'm going to put Knight of the Reliquary back in. I may leave one Baneslayer as a tutor target, because she definitely can just win games on her own that you have no business winning otherwise.

If I can find room in the mana base (which, without Promise of Power, Urborg can finally come out), I'm going to try to work in a Dryad Arbor and potentially a Khalni Garden as a Knight-able token generator for when you need to Intent.

A friend of mine suggested Vengevine for this deck, but I don't think that is a good idea. I'll toss it out there for peer review, as it were, but I just don't see it. VV plays nice with sac outlets, I'll grant, but I think I'd rather have a maindeck Thrun or two, as opposed to VV.

@Tao: I'm glad you're taking up the Gifts mantle. I'm not sure if cutting white entirely is a good idea, since then you also lose access to Sun Titan, as well as Enlightened Tutor packages out of the sideboard (still working on this idea). Explorer makes splashing a color so incredibly easy...I'm not sure that there is a downside. At the same time, basing BUG lets you use Jace, which, as you pointed out, is amazing. At the same time, I'm not sure at what point we just turn into a deviate BUGstill if you go down that road.

So, here is my current list. I am quite satisfied with it. Brainstorm adds much consistency and Jace and Gifts are nuts. The 4-drop slot is quite full but Thrun constantly kept on overperforming so I have 2 of him in the main currently split with 2 Gifts and 2 Jace. Because you don't need to draw 2 of any of them this works out quite well.

About the big threats. Three seems like the best number. Karn is awesome and always wins and the opponent can't do anything. Meloku is like really good and I won't cut him but I am not sure between Wurmcoil and Grave Titan. Both work well with Nightmare and end things fast but Titan is much harder to deal with while Wurmcoil is a way to get out of Aggro reach. Playing both would be too much.

Normal Gifts piles involve Regrowth and Eternal Witness so it becomes a double Demonic Tutor. Cabal Therapy and Recurring Nightmare are not included as often as Witness and Regrowth but still a good amount. Jace TMS and Maelstrom Pulse are very often included.
Often it just doesn't matter what you get because anything would win but sometimes choosing the right cards becomes tricky.

Against Blue decks you have to use Therapy on Brainstorm first even if they don't respond. Often you can tell from their reaction if they have it because they think about responding with it. If you can't tell what they have just name Brainstorm because it is a safe 4-off and it would destroy your Flashback if they have it.

BUG Jacestill has four relevant card against you in their 75 and that are the 4 Jace TMS. If the table is empty don't break Standstill with less than 7 spells in hand and break it at the end of their turn.
Throw everything you have at their Jace. Sometimes they will establish Jace nonetheless and you lose but usually you can keep it off the table with Pulses, Therapies, Thruns, your own Jaces and Witnesses. G2 it gets better because of the Extra Discard and the third Pulse, side out Deeds and Blood. They board Vendillion so leave in the one Dismember. They are good but not enough to kill you, it is still all about Jace.

Vs. Merfolk you try to kill their Lords and they try to Protect them / draw more than you can handle. That is basically it. Side in Extra Removal.

Vs. Stoneforge Aggro Decks the matchup is quite good. They usually can't do anything with the Explorer Mana if you have Explorer and Deed works wonders against them. Stoneforgestill is not much different from BUG Jacestill, it is mostly about Jace. They have Stoneforges to annoy and their Removal exiles but they also have a bit less protection and 1 less Jace.



// Lands
3 [B] Forest
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [B] Bayou
2 [B] Swamp
2 [B] Tropical Island
1 [B] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [B] Island
3 [ON] Polluted Delta

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
2 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
1 [CHK] Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 [M11] Grave Titan

// Spells
4 [5E] Brainstorm
2 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [NPH] Dismember
1 [OD] Innocent Blood

2 [CHK] Gifts Ungiven
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 [NPH] Karn Liberated
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
1 [B] Regrowth

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 [LRW] Shriekmaw
SB: 4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy

It looks great on paper! My opinion is based only looking at your list, I haven't even tested it. Don't you have an extemely high curve? It seems like it has too many 4 and higher costs, if you don't resolve veteran explorer (mental misstep is everywhere) it is a bit dificult to reach the 4-6 lands. But I like the 4 witness, 4 blossoms for defense/card advantage. Also, I think wurmcoil belongs to this deck, and meloku doesn't. What are here uses? If you make tokens, it seems like a bad deal with pernicius deed backup.

Another thing I don't get, basically because I have never played with him, is Karn. What is the strategy you need to follow to win with the opponent can't do anything? I supose it involves a chain of two +4 activations to some threats in your hand and then restart the game with those in play, I don't see anything extra.

@soiber -- In my testing, I'm finding that people won't misstep the Explorer. They'll save it for something that they perceive to be a bigger threat. Granted, some of the people I've been testing against a -lot- will counter the Explorer now because they know what it does, but that still allows Therapies and Swords to go through unabated (or Brainstorms in the case of Tao's list). My primary testing partner has started Swordsing the Explorer so I don't get the trigger -- the problem that he runs into then, though, is that he doesn't have the removal later on for my bigger threats. In an Explorer-less game, you instead lean on your removal. Keep the board clear of their threats and play the control role instead of the beatdown. Eventually, in a war of topdecks, this deck -will- win. The threats it plays are just vastly beyond what most other decks in the format are capable of. You're dropping Titans while they drop Goyfs. It just doesn't compare.

@Tao -- As with Soiber, this is based off of my own experiences with my version, and not explicit playtesting with your list.

-) You need Volrath's Stronghold somewhere in there. Stronghold as a backup Sun Titan/Eternal Witness is disgusting. It's a nonbasic singleton that doesn't always show up, but when it does, it does some serious work. Even if you only get one activation out of it before a wasteland, it's very useful.

-) I would suggest adding a singleton Fleshbag Marauder somewhere. I've diversified my list a bit and refocused on the Gifts package, dropping Promise of Power and a few other things to do so. This guy has been the best find so far. I got Stronghold + Fleshy online in two separate testing games and just won. It's a sac outlet for Explorer, and removal all at the same time. Being Sun Titan-able and Stronghold-able is just gravy.

-) What are the Nature's Claims for in the sideboard? Metalworker/equipment?

-) Your mana base. I don't know how it's been working out for you, but 10 fetches seems like an awful lot given the deckthinning of Explorer. With only three duals, you're going to be drawing blank fetches a lot in the late game, I would think. Obviously they're good still with Brainstorm and Jacestorm just for the shuffle, but I think I would tone that back even just a little.

-) Going along with that and the Stronghold, I would add a 2nd Phyrexian Tower. It's legendary, and it sucks when you get the second one when you already have the first out, but it's akin to playing multiple Gaea's Cradles in the same deck. It adds such horrendous explosiveness to the archetype that I think it is probably worth having two.

-) I'm not sure about only having 3 Therapies main. Therapy is an amazing weapon that is also one of our few ways to interact with combo game one. Against B/W discard and Team Italia, I've found that Therapy is the single best card in my deck -- at the same time that they're stripping my hand of threats, I can be doing the same to them...which eventually leads to a late topdeck war that I almost always win. The fact that it is also a sac outlet for Explorer and enables Witness recursion is also a plus.

-) I agree with Soiber regarding Meloku. It's a hell of a bomb, I'll grant, but I don't think it's the right bomb for the archetype. We don't have Aintrazi's Explorations to go batshit with it. At the point at which this deck makes a truckload of mana anyway, have you thought about trying Sheoldred, the Whispering One? It's removal and reanimates dead Witnesses/Walls. Just some food for thought -- or perhaps if you want a 5-drop for curve issues you could consider Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon or even Kokusho for value at the 6 spot. Kokusho + Rec isn't as nuts as Yosei, perhaps, but it'll still get the job done.

Just some food for thought. I'll post my updated list later on -- it's doing some interesting things at this point. I'm not sure if they're all good or not...in a way, I think that my deck took a step back in refinement from a few lists ago because I'm trying new things. I think that the end point will be better, though.

- Mana base / number of high CC cards / reliance on Explorer: It plays 5 Duals (not 3) so I didn't have a problem with dead fetches so far. With 7 basics, a Phyrexian Tower and 3 colors I think 10 Fetchlands are needed to get the right Mana reliably. Nine cards that cost four or more Mana are a lot but that's what the deck does. It does not rely on Explorer though. It has Removal to stall and Wall of Blossoms, Brainstorms and Witnesses (for Fetch) to find the nessecary lands if you don't have Explorer. Because of that it is also not a catastrophe if they stop Explorer from doing his job.
Using Explorer is very relevant. Don't automatically run it out on turn for example. By waiting for Therapy/Tower you get around Swords without a problem.

- Karn on an empty board usually means you win. He draws one card a turn and then loses it. If he keeps it in hand or if it is irrelevant you use +4, if he plays it and it is relevant you use -3. Usually there is no need to use it on yourself or to restart a game. Because why would you want to restart a game with Iso Scepter/Vindicate in play? One of the reasons to restart would be fear of dying to burnspells.

- If I would run another colorless land (Stronghold, Wasteland) I would run 23 lands. One Life from the Loam would probably also be included then. Atm I don't think it is needed.

- I use Innocent Blood atm. Without Stronghold it is better than Marauder.

- Nature's Claim are imo better than Grip because they can kill Leyline of Sanctity in time. They are also better against Painter decks and Affinity.

- You are right, the 4th Therapy belongs in the main. Will cut something.

- Meloku just always performed well when I had him. Blocks fliers, blocks Sworded guys, blocks multiple creatures, wins fast.

Alright folks, here's the latest main and sideboard for my more combo-oriented version.


1x Baneslayer Angel
1x Fleshbag Marauder
2x Academy Rector
2x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
3x Lotus Cobra
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness

3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Debtor's Knell

3x Gifts Ungiven
3x Swords to Plowshares
1x Path to Exile

2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

1x Innocent Blood
2x Diabolic Intent
4x Cabal Therapy

2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Tropical Island
1x Scrubland
2x Bayou
1x Savannah
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Island
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Karakas

//Sideboard
3x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
3x Enlightened Tutor
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Choke
1x City of Solitude
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Null Rod
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
2x Innocent Blood


So...yeah. A lot of versions and a lot of work over the past week or so has gotten me to this point. I had no idea that Rector was legal in legacy, and that immediately got my wheels turning. Since my deck was already built with the idea of sacrificing a creature for value, Rector seems like it should be here somewhere. I know that I run a grave risk of getting too cute at the point at which Rector is introduced, so I kept myself to a strict one-bomb limit. For that purpose, I selected Debtor's Knell. It is synergistic with the rest of the deck in general (and Gifts specifically), and is almost insurmountable when it's online -- even bringing back a Witness every upkeep is brutal. And the Knell can bring back stuff that you've already blown up or discarded, which seems useful. Worst case, we can play the Knell from our hand fairly easily, and Rector can always grab a Deed or Nightmare, with additional options from the sideboard. I did consider Moat, but I like that I like Titan too much. I've built around him to an extent that using him just to bring back one permanent ever is a little lame. Still, I suppose that it IS worthy of consideration, especially for the more control oriented versions (Tao's list with white would love this...suddenly Meloku becomes superserious).

I've already touched on Fleshbag, but I'll mention him again here. You can bring him back with Titan, you can bring him back with Stronghold, and not many decks can handle that. Plus, he fuels our sacrifice theme. He's been a house in testing so far. Most of the other tweaks are value of life changes for Gifts. I diversified my removal to work better therein, and decided to keep the 3rd copy of Gifts in the deck.

Now, for the sideboard:

I'll preface this by stating that this section is mostly theoretical.

Natural Order is not. My primary testing partner is besotted with NO, and it took me dying a few times to his NO -- fueled by my own Explorer saccing, mind -- for me to realize that I should be doing that, too. It's rather frightening how much this deck already facilitates a NO package, and it turns some coin toss matchups into advantageous ones. Some of them, like Zoo, may board into Perish, I'm not sure -- I don't play Zoo, so I'm not sure if Explorer, Witness, and Cobra is enough for them to bring that in...I'm guessing not.

The Innocent Bloods are to have a little extra for the Show and Tell decks...fairly industry standard.

The E.T. package is a personal baby of mine. I love E.T. toolboxes, so whenever I'm working on a deck that could run it, I tend to be biased towards doing so. However, in my defense, I didn't really sell on the ET idea until I put Academy Rector in. ET can shore up some dreadful matchups with effective, crippling bullets. Control crumples under Chains, Choke, and City. Painter doesn't like to see Null Rod. Burn obviously can't deal with CoP:Red. Dredge and Reanimator don't like Wheel of Sun and Moon. This last is probably the weakest ET target present, honestly. I feel like Dredge is a decent matchup already, and Reanimator, I feel, you need to have dedicated hate for if you want to beat it. At the same time, Therapy is a little rough for them, and the combined black and white removal might cause issues. I'm not sure.

I would like two Thruns somewhere for an additional middle finger to control, but at the point at which either City or Choke is out, especially, I think that they are in dire straights -- at that point, our superior card quality should take over and run them out of the game.

Going forward, I'm going to be looking at the final remaining Baneslayer very closely. It may be that she should become a 3rd Sun Titan, or perhaps a Regrowth. It may be something else. I'm feeling like she's not necessary, though, as usually my "win the game" Gifts pile is Titan-Nightmare-Witness-Yosei.

Ideas and comments are appreciated, as always. This particular list is a bit more experimental than some of its predecessors, as mentioned earlier -- but I think that with some further tweaks and refining, this is going good places.

Could the new Garruk maybe see play here? It's basically Promise of Power if you have a fattie out and has value even if you just start spam the board with tokens or alternate between first and second ability. Casting cost seems supportable. I haven't tested with it yet, though.

I'm not sold on Gifts Ungiven. Not sure if it's really worth moving into 4 colors just for it and seems like you want to do too many cool things.

The list I'm going to give a shot is:

4x Birds of Paradise
3x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
2x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Thrun, the last Troll
3x Sun Titan

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Diabolic Intent
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Sylvan Library

4x Windswept Heath
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Savannah
2x Bayou
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
3x Forest
3x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Horizon Canopy

SB
3xWrath of God
3x Innocent Blood
3x Extirpate
3x Thoughtseize
2x Krosan Grip
1x Bojuka Bog

The Innocent Blood could be Diabolic Edict. I also almost want to drop the Top for another Pridemage, in order to get some early beats on the table. Thoughts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Philipp2293

Could the new Garruk maybe see play here? It's basically Promise of Power if you have a fattie out and has value even if you just start spam the board with tokens or alternate between first and second ability. Casting cost seems supportable.

---

The new Garruk seems legit. I always wanted more Planeswalkers but except for Jace they are all not good in this deck. Garruk 1 is not realiable enough. Beast production chews away at his loyalty and untapping is not always needed. Elspeth has also only one really useful ability. For decks like GW giving +3/+3 and flying is great to finish a game but this deck does not care overly much about how many turns it needs once the game is under control. The Elspeth ultimate is extremely rarely useful.

Garruk 2 is like Elspeth except that he costs one more and has 2 less loyalty for the bonus that his creatures are three times bigger and that his second ability and ultimate are far more useful. For many decks the 5cc are daunting but in this it is not that important as long as you get enough value out of the one Mana. Getting a 3/3 instead of a 1/1 is obviously a huge difference. Drawing 3 me likes and putting 42-60 power is worth to be called ultimate.

I like Elspeth in this style of deck of 2 reasons. 1 it puts a dude on the table or makes them bigger. The deck has a couple of problems I've been running into.

1. Early board pressure. This problem is easy to solve. I've been thinking of adding another Pridemage, and might switch over Noble Heirarchs since they can swing. They don't produce Black but the deck really wants Green and White more.

2. Card draw. This is the problem I'm having trouble with. The canidates aren't that great. Harmonize costs 4 which doable but seems kind of ehh.. Same goes for Night's Whisper, and Sign in Blood. I would really love to squeeze in something like Ancestral Vision but that brings in the dreaded 4th color for just one card. Phyrexian Arena could be a possiblity also.

So what happened to the Zeniths? The thread was named after them and I started reading backwards to catch up on what's been going on with this deck idea and the list's weren't using it.

I found Zenith wasn't really need in the deck. I use to play it but, the style I went for wanted to find Deed more then a green creature. If the style changed for to a Zenith Order board control type deck with Pulse instead of Deed then I think it should find a way in.

Zenith in the thread name is awkward but when I made the thread I thought Zenith was an auto-include because of Cabal Therapy, Explorer and other Green creatures. But the deck somehow works better without Zenith for the reasons that Brushwagg named.

@Brushwagg:
1. That is the classical midrange problem. As soon as you add more early beats you will get dominated by Landstill the next game because you don't have enough gas.

2. The blue version solves that problem. Brainstorm, Jace and Gifts are that card draw (Brainstorm almost feels like draw). There is no playable card draw in other colors.
If you stay in GBW because of Swords and Sun Titan the first card you should try is the new Garruk. It is great with Thrun and you can potentially go nuts with KotR. And when there is no creature in play Garruk is still the card you want to play. Sometimes I evaluate new cards too high but atm I don't have any doubts that the new Garruk will be awesome in any version of this deck.

I've made 2 changes to my list after a few test games. -4 BOP +4 Heirarch and -1 Titan for +1 Pridemage.

This seems to work a little better with the early game. As far as card draw I'm not looking for Cantrips although Brainstorm is nice to have, but not worth weaken the mana base. I'm looking hard at Skeletal Scrying as well.

My Sb has changed as well. But this is for my local meta. Theres like 3-4 SFM and NO decks,and alot of Jace, a couple of Goblins and a Mefolk or two:

3x Wrath of God
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Krosan Grip
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Aven Mindcensor

What about Yavimaya Elder in this deck? I browsed magiccards.info for another Explorer-like card, and this is the only one out there (besides Viridian Emissary) and I like its overall synergy with the theme of this deck.