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Why are ban discussions allowed here at all??? All they ever turn out to be are ignorants ranting and haters flaming. The number of intelligent posts is so negligent I don't get why these threads are allowed to exist. It's not like you have any control over the DCI's decision-making anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman82
So are you for blue or against blue?
Bro, if you don't like the thread, GTFO. Also, it's annoying when you post the same stupid message in multiple threads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitman82
Made my day, lolQuote:
Originally Posted by joemauer
This thread is a reaction against all the people who think that based on 2 big tournaments MM has changed the format forever and go !!!!1!!!!BLUE IS OVERPOWERED, the sky is falling and I need mi mommi!!!!1!!!!
This is the Bob Marley thread of metagame discussion => relax or leave (smoke pot and then come back here)
Ah, yes, the classic "well who cares if blue is ridiculously overpowered, because smart people don't want to play anything else anyway".
You ever thought that the reason the Spike psychograph and the "I <3 blue" psychograph overlap so much is because.. drumroll... blue has always been the overpowered Fortunate Son?
Spikes who enjoyed playing other things either learned to love blue or learned to love losing.
Quoting myself because I'm awesome and this is hilarious:Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
PAGE 1: Not so bad
#7
#9Quote:
Alternately, if they want to restore red they could just unban Goblin Recruiter and Worldgorger Dragon
#19 (DrJones really started the derailing!)Quote:
I think they would have no issue unbanning Dragon if the deck didn't cause inordinate amounts of draws in tournaments.
Quote:
So, I hope that FoW gets axed this year thanks to the arrival of Mental Misstep, which fixes a lot of things that are wrong about FoW
PAGE 2: Lol we're seeing more discussions on OMGBANBLUE
#23
#28Quote:
All that said, I don't think anything should be banned, or that the format sux, I just said I would enjoy if they printed better cards for monocolor strategies, as much as they print things for multicolor like Wild Nacatl or Maelstrom Pulse. Cards that work better if you have basic lands would be nice =)
:DQuote:
Lol, props to the guy who said this was going to end into another ban blue thread.
So, as I opened the thread, some recommendations:
1. Discussion about blue banning is for another thread there are enough serial threads to discuss manbearpig
2. This thread is for trolling so don't post here if you can't make me lol.
3. Dr Jones and some others should change their pic into gargamel, just for sports (and epic lulz)
#29
#32Quote:
Format is unplayable, it's all Time Walks and Strip Mines. Ban Blue. I have had it with FoW and Brainstorm being the most played cards for years running.
Dragofireheart rubbing the salt into banlists again!Quote:
I still don't see how Brainstorm is even remotely as powerful as other banned cards like SotF, MT, Mox-X, or Black Lotus.
#36
He's at it again!Quote:
So Brainstorm should be banned because it's the best card? I don' think it crosses the threshold on being broken. Especially considering that the current tier 1 deck, Merfolk, doesn't even run it.
#37
#38Quote:
I don't want them to ban Brainstorm, I think it's the most fun card in Legacy. I just can't understand why I (anyone) shouldn't play it.
#40Quote:
If Wotc bans the color blue no one would have to debate over which blue cards are the broken ones needing banning. Just saying.
PAGE 3:Quote:
Land Tax is fucking overpowered, thank god it's banned!
...
Er wait, blue is still unbanned. Carry on with your discussion, then.
#41
SALUTE!Quote:
Why are ban discussions allowed here at all??? All they ever turn out to be are ignorants ranting and haters flaming. The number of intelligent posts is so negligent I don't get why these threads are allowed to exist. It's not like you have any control over the DCI's decision-making anyway.
#42
Also Lord Cyrus called Speed Zoo beating blue and we have it in SCG Indianapolis with Zoo/Gobs coming 1st/2nd in a field of blue.Quote:
So are you for blue or against blue?
My conlusion for this thread:
OMG can we just ban blue already so we won't have these posts/threads popping up at the end of every Legacy event?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
It's not like predicting such an outcome would be hard to guess anyways. People love to bitch about blue.
15 out of 15 of the past major Legacy tournaments I am aware of were won by blue decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Really, if not for the fact that Mental Misstep upends the metagame, it would be nonsensical to do anything but call for some sort of action.
I think people that really want to hang onto their Brainstorms at all costs are using typical misdirection techniques by trying to label valid criticisms about blue's over-dominance at the moment as "whining" or "bitching."
Yet all this amounts to is doing what Wizards has always done in every non-Vintage format, which is intervene to keep the format somewhat balanced.
The Invitational had the top 2 spots taken by Zoo and Goblins, respectively. I'll admit it wasn't pure legacy, but I believe results are still somewhat valid.
Oh, so he did. I misead the finals page and thought RUG was his Legacy deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
This is why I fucking hate people that insist on these "descriptive" names that always end up describing dozens of decks over dozens of formats. At least Caw-Blade specifies something.
So 14 out of 17. That's worrisome but a bit better, especially since half of those we can drop as as the pre-Mental Misstep meta.
Also, how many of those 14 were Fish, making action against Brainstorm nonsensical?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
How many of those 14 blue decks had Brainstorm?
This is a silly argument. Fish exists because blue is a very popular color. Take away other blue decks and combo- decks most likely to use Brainstorm- and Fish has very few positive matchups left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief
11.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
The other blue decks were 2 Merfolk, 1 Affinity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Hasn't that be the normal distribution even in the past? 1/2 ro 3/4 blue, the other 1/4 other stuff?
Unfair. How is that quote related to OMGBANBLUE? I was refering to a totally different OMG topic, which is OMG pls print better monocolor-oriented cards instead of amazing multicolor ones, punishing you for playing monocolor twice as much. (Less answers, worse answers)Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
Here's a sample:
Gui's Chosen :g:
Creature - Beast
During your upkeep, if you control lands other than basic Forests, sacrifice Gui's Chosen.
3/3
Oh wow, I'd love this card xD
Editing for some extra fuel to burn:
I don't really get why WotC believes :g::g: to be an easier/better cost than :g::w: (yes, I'm comparing pridemage vs zealot, but it's just one example of many). :g::g: forces you to be less diverse in colors, making your splash harder/worse, the gg card should actually have a better effect than the gw one. If pridemage and Zealot had the same skills (:1:, sacrifice: naturalize; exalted; 2/2), Pridemage would still be the most played card due to gg cost being worse.
It's called Power Creep Gui!!
Just as Shivan Dragon is no longer as impressive and Serra Angel is no longer as impressive when compared next to Baneslayer Angel.
And to your point, having colored cost of the same mana symbol e.g. GG/WW/UU is usually 'bad' because in Legacy, most decks are splashing colors. The real drawback in Legacy is limiting yourself to mono-color. I think there are more multicolor decks or decks splashing colors with/without duals than actually the dominance of blue-based decks. My opinion on this whole situation is: you can't really call every deck that plays blue a 'blue-based' deck. It's semantics, but I think blue-based decks are really just limited to Merfolks, Landstill, Countertop, Solidarity, MUC, Dreadstill, spiral Tide in this format. A deck like RUG/Bant/TA aren't really blue-based since their win-conditions and strategies do not involve blue. Blue is simply used to protect/answer/execute their win conditions.
The real deal is Bant/TA/RUG/SFMskull are using blue cards because the blue shell is the best shell to splash for in this format, or in general, in the game of MTG itself. However, it is hard to see Berserk Stompy (no harm intended Gui! :P) or mono colored decks being the most competitive decks. They don't do bad because Burn/MonoU Merfolks/MonoR Goblins all still place well, but for most parts, Legacy is primarily dual/tri colored because there is little reason not to splash colors to gain power level. The nice thing is this is kept in check by Wasteland/Moon/Stifle. Format is pretty awesome, nothing is ever too overpowered and everything is kept in check by something e.g. blue by Merfolks and vial decks.
Because at :1::g::w:, Harmonic Sliver is just better than Qasali Pridemage. And power creep.
Also, Blue-based Infect Stompy isn't bad either. You get counters to protect your 1/1's. (lol?)
The philosophy behind that is that different colors merged in the same card cover each other's weaknesses, giving a better card a result. For example, white is good at destroying artifacts and enchantments, but it has narrow answers to creatures; black is good at destroying creatures and doesn't totally suck at destroying lands, but it can't deal with artifacts and enchantments. Thus when combined, Vindicate is born.
Lol ruckus: 1/1's that kill you!!
Yeah, the color blue is a shell that is immensely effective in eternal formats. A good observation is to look at white, which does almost nothing important in Vintage, whereas it plays a key role in Legacy, whether you're playing it for StP/SFM or splashing it for Pridemage etc. A pure mono-U deck with all the best blue card is usually (I say usually because MUC can be immensely good in the right metagame) not going to do as well as Ux decks or Uxy decks or even XYu (splashing blue instead of blue being the main color) for reasons that every color you splash, you gain something that blue cannot achieve. It's this reason you find most decks splashing blue, or white. Because decks without blue are losing out on the blue permission package which is very strong in the format, and blue control decks are sometimes forced to splash red or white for a removal package which is lacking in mono blue (Repeal and Echoing Truth are not too spetacular).
This is why I don't buy the whole "Blue needs a nerf" story. The blue package is argubly the strongest package, but that's the defining aspect of the format, just like Standard is defined by Jace and Caws, Vintage is defined by the color blue, Lotus and maybe 3-5 decks, Legacy is also primarily defined by the fact that blue is the stronger color. However, I think Legacy is evolving much more than what our impressions are imposed on ourselves. We tend to think the format to be just blue blue blue, when we sometimes fail to admire that blue is really kept in check by Merfolks (which so unluckily happens to be in blue) and Vial.dec, which is usually countered by non-blue decks e.g. Gobs/Zoo. My point is, everything is kept in check. Too many blue cards you see is a little 'uneasy', but the upside is: you have a format where the Top 8/16/32 are not revealing an overabundance of the same archetype/decks. This is the crux of it all, and is only proof that the format is balanced.
This thread is the equivalent of a bunch of lesser comic book superheroes sitting around and talking about how overrated Superman is. No, he isn't. If you need someone to come to your rescue, you pick the guy who's immune to bullets, can fly, has x-ray vision, bends steel, etc. You don't call Aquaman.
Blue is amazing. Deal with it.
Furthermore, comparing the structure of Vintage to the structure of Legacy is pointless. Vintage is the way it is because broken cards were printed at a time when nobody involved in Magic had any clue how to balance power levels of cards. Ancestral Recall was part of the same cycle as Healing Salve, for god's sake.
Legacy is the way it is right now because of Mental Misstep. Legacy is the way it is right now because they did what Wizards does every so often: Print a card without thinking clearly.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Mental Misstep made the format worse. I was so tired of Legacy being a gauntlet of impossible combo decks. I'm glad Dredge is weakened. I'm glad Storm Combo is weakened. I'm glad Belcher and Elf Combo are much more beatable now. I'm glad, for the most part, that you have to have a little bit of playskill to succeed in Legacy right now. I'm glad combat math exists again. I'm glad the format, on the whole, doesn't reward terrible magic players who learn one combo and can get lucky and beat you.
That said, I don't think Mental Misstep really made the format much better, either, because now there's absolutely no reason to not play blue in your deck. Combo is blue, control is blue, aggro is blue, and aggro control is blue. You can get 8+ free counters in your deck by splashing blue now without having to run more than 8 blue cards.
This thread is the equivalent of a bunch of lesser comic book superheroes sitting around and talking about how overrated Superman is. No, he isn't. If you need someone to come to your rescue, you pick the guy who's immune to bullets, can fly, has x-ray vision, bends steel, etc. You don't call Aquaman.
Blue is amazing. Deal with it.
Furthermore, comparing the structure of Vintage to the structure of Legacy is pointless. Vintage is the way it is because broken cards were printed at a time when nobody involved in Magic had any clue how to balance power levels of cards. Ancestral Recall was part of the same cycle as Healing Salve, for god's sake.
Legacy is the way it is right now because of Mental Misstep. Legacy is the way it is right now because they did what Wizards does every so often: Print a card without thinking clearly.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Mental Misstep made the format worse. I was so tired of Legacy being a gauntlet of impossible combo decks. I'm glad Dredge is weakened. I'm glad Storm Combo is weakened. I'm glad Belcher and Elf Combo are much more beatable now. I'm glad, for the most part, that you have to have a little bit of playskill to succeed in Legacy right now. I'm glad combat math exists again. I'm glad the format, on the whole, doesn't reward terrible magic players who learn one combo and can get lucky and beat you.
That said, I don't think Mental Misstep really made the format much better, either, because now there's absolutely no reason to not play blue in your deck. Combo is blue, control is blue, aggro is blue, and aggro control is blue. You can get 8+ free counters in your deck by splashing blue now without having to run more than 8 blue cards.
Agreed, they power creep all over, that's a fair point, but doesn't help much when the power creep version is then turned into multicolor as if multicolor (:g::w:) was harder to get then monocolor (:g::g:), when in fact, it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metalwalker
You missed my point - I never said GG/WW/UU were good. I was actually saying cards with this kind of cost should have better/greater effects than the multicolored costs, because they are BAD.Quote:
And to your point, having colored cost of the same mana symbol e.g. GG/WW/UU is usually 'bad' because in Legacy, most decks are splashing colors...
Hmpf. Zerk is good, you don't know what you are saying >.<Quote:
However, it is hard to see Berserk Stompy (no harm intended Gui! :P) or mono colored decks being the most competitive decks
...
Legacy is primarily dual/tri colored because there is little reason not to splash colors to gain power level. The nice thing is this is kept in check by Wasteland/Moon/Stifle. Format is pretty awesome, nothing is ever too overpowered and everything is kept in check by something e.g. blue by Merfolks and vial decks.
It beatz blue decks, it has to be good.
On a more serious note, I actually like that the format lets you splash for 3 colors and lets you play solutions against these decks like Wasteland/Moon/B2B. What I was looking for was more incentive to stay monocolor too. You don't need to print solutions from other colors (as for counters in green); Just make something that makes not-splashing somehow attractive (Black got more of these, with :b::b: costing cards)
But this is no big deal either, I like the format the way it is, I would just enjoy some love for monocolored decks, but I figure I'm being unfair at this point, since Elves, Goblins and Merfolks exists... oh, and that red Tribal, "Lightnings".
In the previous year, 10 out of 16 SCG Open winners had at least some blue; before that, it was 1 out of 5.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
In Chronological descending order, GP Columbus 2.0 had 7 out of 8 Blue decks, GP Madrid 5 out of 8, GP Chicago had 4 out of 8. GP Columbus 1.0, where it was actually possible to play Hulk-Flash, still only had 5 players in the top 8 running blue. At GP Lille it was 4 out of 8. At GP Philadelphia, only 3 out of 8 players ran blue.
So short answer, "No."
Your point is incoherent, and since Superman is a terrible character who creates a huge plot drag on the universe he's written into, your analogy fails in every way possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Before Mental Misstep blue was the best deck. Before Counterbalance blue was the best deck. Before solidarity.. well you get the point.
Mental Misstep just makes blue decks get another free counter, but I think in the long run this free counter will have more of a impact on other non-blue decks since they get to abuse it as well. (Daze is my situational comparison)Daze of course requires Islands and does something completely different for the cost, but Mental Misstep is one of the closest things to it. Mental Misstep makes all decks better since you get four Mental Misstep, and that my friends is the format logic.
Aquaman can swim under the sea, so does that mean he has islandwalk and can stop blue players creatures via Sower of Temptation effect on ala blue?
Before Solidarity and arguably during it Goblins was the best deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shax
Blue hasn't always been the best color, and it certainly hasn't always been this dominant, or even cloe to it. Hell, I just posted some fucking numbers on this, can people stop talking out of ignorance?
To add to the previous list, the blue count in the top 8 of GenCon championships has been
2008: 3/8
2009: 7/8
2010: 5/8
When Worlds had Legacy as a format in 2007, the decks that finished 4-1 or better in that portion were;
34/53 blue.
With most decks running 2.4 colors to start with, 2:1 is a Hell of a different ratio from the 5:1 to 7:1 we're seeing now.
Blue has been helped enormously by a few things in recent years; the printing of Jace and powerful merfolk, as well as more powerful, splashable cards that fit in with many historic blue decks' strategies like Knight of the Reliquary and Goyf, the development of better combo lists and the printing or unbanning of cards that help combo enormously; Ad Nauseum, Emrakul, Hive Mind, Iona, Entomb, Time Spiral, and to some extent, arguably the banning of Survival.
Blue may also be suffering from overhype at the moment; if people keep saying that the only option is to play blue, then a lot of people will do so and numbers will tell regardless of whether Zoo and Goblins are as dead as claimed (a demise the rumors of which may have been greatly exaggerated).
But it is certainly not an inevitability and a natural thing that should just be accepted, even desired, that Legacy be a blue-only format.
Master Shakes article linked here has a breakdown of the top 32:
blue 21
non-blue 11
Seems pretty similar to earlier numbers.
I can't believe you're arguing for the banning of Superman!Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Banning Superman would actually be eminently reasonable, and the DC restart offers a perfect chance to do that. Failing that, they ought to restore him to his original casting, where his powers were merely being really strong, hard to hit, and being fast/able to jump pretty high.
But that's a derail.
How does FoW break the format? It doesn't win you games, you 2-for-1 yourself, and the deck that won the GP had none, in spite of playing blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJones
The fact that combo can play FoW means that it can actually compete with other decks instead of auto-lose. Perhaps you just hate combo?
Mental Misstep is actually a lot more wrong than FoW. It's a 1-for-1, and it does not require you to invest in any other blue cards whatsoever. How is overextended more diverse? Overextended doesn't even exist, so there is no metagame, so anyone can play any terrible deck they want. If people actually played it, the real decks would quickly emerge, and I'm pretty sure it would be a lot less diverse than legacy.
It's not that the colors are unbalanced, it's that the better players play blue, and they win because they are better. Also, expecting to get into legacy without putting in some money is an unreasonable expectation. Every archetype has some cards that are expensive, and it's usually the dual lands.
Actually FoW brings variance to the game. I'm sure no one would enjoy losing to Tendrils decks every single round, which is what would happen if FoW were to be banned.
I am actually not invested in color psychographics or playstyles, I just play decks based on interactions, not colors. My favorite deck is 43lands, which doesn't even really have colors. The color pie is less relevant in eternal formats because WOTC has broken it over and over.
The format isn't going some way. There have been FoW decks all along. But it's good that you're trying to develop nonblue decks. Having more decks is always better, regardless of the color.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nayon
Lawl, this blue is played by better players is bullshit. These players are better because they PLAY BLUE. Reality is most the blue decks in the format play themselves, fighting blue takes more complex trains of thought. And, I quite enjoy the challenge :P
The pros play blue because they know its the best and they are PRO PLAYERS. They won't settle for playing second best since they have a job to do. You don't mop your floor with a sponge when you own a mop.
Edit: Force of will isn't broken, mental misstep probably is though. Time will tell.
I sat next to GerryT at the DC Open. He was playing Elves. Jesse Hatfield played Zoo a few weeks ago. Pros don't always play blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iare
I can understand Elves, they are actually a really strong deck in the hands of a competent pilot. Zoo on the other hand really lost its oomph with the printing of Mental Misstep, it just isn't the deck to play anymore. The good news is I think black decks are going to comeback into the metagame in a big way once people realize Phyrexian Obliterator is just insane once it hits the board.
I don't think blue decks by and large are hard to pilot or reward play skill nearly as much as most other decks in the format. Elves takes a hell of a lot to think through, Goblins have all sorts of tricky plays built in, Zoo actually has more decisions to make. Think about it Blue has simple choices to make:
1 Do I want this spell to resolve?
2 Does it cost 1 or 2
3 Do I have an island in play
4 Do I have a blue card in hand
Yeah, to say blue is complicated is a complete and total farce. One of the main reasons I don't like playing blue is the deck ends up the same and piloting itself, there really isn't that much fun to be had. Oh and the lazy deck construction it leads to:
4x Brainstorm
4x Mental Misstep
4x Force of Will
4x Daze
4x Spellsnare/Pierce <-- Finally have to turn my brain on and we are almost halfway done!
If I am not splashing more than one color for my win condition the deck further builds itself:
4x Stifle
4x Wasteland
Throw your lands and win conditions in and give it a name that isn't Really just a blue deck.
So, we are playing in a metagame infested by Tempo decks. Oh no wait, Stifle+Wasteland is playable only if "I am splashing more than one color". Monoblue Canadian Threshold, Monoblue Dark Threshold, Monoblue Team America.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iare
Have you actually ever played blue? If so, have you ever been good at it? The answer to one of these questions has to be no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iare
Ad hominem = no-no. Verbal warning for flame-baiting. - Bardo
In this thread people convince themselves they are big boys because they play with certain cards. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by nayon
CmON guyz!!! its not that the {Soviet tank rush|Orc Bloodlust|4Warpgate|ETC.} is overpowered, all the best players just love how aesthetically pleasing it is.
I was trying to say it's not that simple to play control. Yes, you can autopilot with it, but if you want to be successful, you have to learn how to get out of difficult scenarios, which requires restraint and good usage of resources.Quote:
Originally Posted by nayon
Then just say that and don't antagonize others in this thread.
The same goes for everyone else doing the same. - Bardo
Or cast a Natural Order and win :PQuote:
Originally Posted by nayon
Yes, I have in fact played blue. Only on MWS since I haven't exactly collected all the blue staples or the blue lands. I have duels in black, red, green and white but none that tap for U nor do I care to buy them since I don't really like playing the color. I find it good to know my enemy and how he is thinking and the best way to acomplish this is to play his deck awhile. Post MM blue decks don't lend themselves to getting into bad situations often and they really don't have any truely tricky thought filled plays to get out of them. Brainstorm and hope to find their answer isn't tricky. (This applies more to blue aggro control not so much landstill). Landstill is tricky cause you gotta try not to fall asleep while you play it ;D
And, to respond to above I said if I am NOT splashing two colors then Stifle + waste is an auto include or I am doing it wrong.
You are doing it wrong. Merfolk nor U/w landstill nor monoblue control use the wasteland+stifle combo. Hive mind is a blue deck too right? Should it have the wasteland+stifle combo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Iare
i do think blue pilots have to study the field more than anyone else. Its knowing what and when to counter something that matters. You might not always counter something on turn 4 but you might want to counter it earlier if you have the chance.