I think Wasteland is only good in slow control decks because it kills Mutavault.
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I think Wasteland is only good in slow control decks because it kills Mutavault.
Look at the SCG Articles below, most recent is at the top:Quote:
Originally Posted by BantFTW
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...gacy_Open.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...itational.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...rovidence.html
If the Hatfield(s) analyses are to be believed, as you go through the beginning of when U/W Stoneblade entered the legacy meta to the latest SCG in Baltimore, U/W Stoneblade has shored up its matchup with Zoo, Affinity and other aggro decks close to and past 50% (depending on deck) where in the beginning it had a paltry 30%, especially against Zoo. This may be due of course to suboptimal beginning decklists, and then tuning the deck from there with lessons learned as each tournament came and went. From that same analyses, U/W Stoneblade also has slightly favorable matchups with a lot of the top decks in the current metagame such as Merfolk. This may just be due to Batterskull and not taking into account whether Merfolk has adapted since then with Dismember in the main and/or the board.
U/W Stoneblade biggest weakness thus far has been poor showings against NO RUG but this may also be due to the low number of players actually playing NO RUG and thus the UW Stoneblade pilot not preparing their sideboard for it as a consequence.
All in all, it will be interesting to see what comes out of this weekend's SCG legacy in Cinn. During playtesting U/W Stoneblade, its fairly weak to certain combo matchups like Tide and its ilk so maybe its time for some sort of Solidarity/Spiral Tide etc to come out o the woodwork to prey on the metagame like Aggro Loam did in SCG Baltimore.
I'd really like to see a list that shored up it's Zoo matches. I'm having problems with mine against that deck and I'd like to know what they did. It would save me some brainstorming sessions.
8 StP/PtE post board and some number of WoGs seems to be in most of the Blade lists(UW). That should hold zoo off. Snare is also good there against Pridemage.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahcmai
maybe ghostyle prison could be an sideboard option to for gobblins, zoo dredge??
You play white and they can't pay it (I'm a zoo player btw) Maybe if I got 2 creatures I can pay for 2 but not more mostly^^
@ Mishra's Factory and Wasteland
I may have been too aggressive with my post regarding these lands.
In a deck with only single colored cost requirements, these lands work pretty well. They tap for colorless mana, which can be used to cast spells.
However, my point regarding Wasteland is that you should be trying to make consistent land drops; Jace costs 4 mana, and hardcast Batterskull costs 5 mana (which will occur in a control deck with such a light creature base). If you are aggressively attacking the opponents manabase with Wasteland, you are setting yourself back a land drop. This gets even worse for those lists running Wasteland and Daze.
Mishra's Factory on the other hand, not only opens up your manabase to opposing Wasteland's, it also opens it up to opposing removal.
With 1/3 of your lands tapping for colorless mana, it's very possible that you draw a colorless heavy land draw early, and your deck literally screws itself. This has happened to me countless times when I used to play U/W Landstill. The fact is, playing a 3 color manabase without Mishra's Factory or Wasteland has a far more stable manabase than a 2 color manabase with 4/4 Factory/Waste, because it has more colored sources.
In a Blade Control list like Gerry T's, which is alot more tempo-oriented, akin to an aggro/control deck, I can see the justification for Factory/Waste/Daze. In the lists where people are playing more than 2 Jace TMS, Wrath of God, etc... it baffles me to see Factory/Waste being used without question. However, Gerry T does run 4 Jaces... and if he was using using Wasteland and Daze aggressively, I wonder what the average turn his Jace's came into play, even moreso against decks with opposing Wastelands. Turn 8? Meanwhile, with 4 Jace, his hand is clogged with spells begging to be pitched to Force of Will...
..at any rate.
In the decklist I posted, I have significant color demands. Counterspell and Counterbalance want UU as early as turn two. Jace wants UU, Elspeth wants WW, and Shackles wants as many Islands as possible. The deck is built in a true U/W Control shell that wants to make consistent land drops up to and beyond turn 4. Factory/Waste, especially against opposing Wastes, is the absolute worst thing a decklist like the one I posted could do to its own manabase. The stable 7 basic manabase I posted, even with only 21 lands, works absolutely perfect.
I hope that settles some of the confusion about my last post.
The list I posted has a good Zoo matchup, especially postboard. It has enough countermagic and removal to keep Zoo from doing much damage early, and has Countertop, Batterskull, and Shackles to lock the game out. Elspeth is also pretty good in this matchup too.Quote:
I'd really like to see a list that shored up it's Zoo matches. I'm having problems with mine against that deck and I'd like to know what they did. It would save me some brainstorming sessions.
I keep going back to Dust Bowl as a way to deal with problematic lands in the UWR shell. It's more succinct than Wasteland without hogging up 3-4 slots, and repeatable which is the focus. It can turn all the extra fetchlands into more destruction.
U/W Blade Control
Lands (21)
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
7 Island
2 Plains
Creatures (4)
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Spells (35)
2 Batterskull
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Mental Misstep
3 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vedalken Shackles
Sideboard (15)
2 Aura of Silence
2 Moat
4 Peacekeeper
4 Meddling Mage
3 Pithing Needle
This is your list right :)
Isn't the deck to slow, okay, lategame you can go shackles and stuff but you can't hold everything.
I just think this deck is to slow.
Also you only have one creature to play batterskull on, what if it get's killed then you only would have tokens from elspeth, is that enough?
These are just questions, didn't tested it.
Btw, peacekeeper sucks quite hard then would play 2x more moat/ghostly prisons or something...
Yes, the deck is going to be slow, considering it's a control deck. Swords, Mental Misstep, and Force of Will have you covered for turn 1, and this deck holds open UU for turn two for Counterspells without a problem. What does the deck need to be fast against? The deck still has the ability to put Batterskull into play on turn 3, or Countertop lock into play on turn 2, if you really need to race aggro or combo.
I've actually cut the Moat's from the sideboard for 2 Wrath of God, and 1 Pithing Needle for 1 Umezawa's Jitte, but those are small changes.
Why do I need a creature to attach Batterskull to? Batterskull itself is a 0/0 Germ token. If a 4/4 Vigilance Lifelink isn't enough for you, then yes, you can attach it to a 1/1 Elspeth token, a creature that you stole with Shackles, a topdecked SFM, or another Batterskull (w/ Germ token). I don't get what the issue is here.
Also, why does Peacekeeper suck quite hard? Peacekeeper is so insanely good against so many decks. Any deck with very light or no removal has huge issues with Peacekeeper. A resolved Peacekeeper is usually gg against a large chunk of the format.
Maybe some people don't enjoy playing slow control decks, and would prefer to play a faster aggro/control list, and there is nothing wrong with that. However, that doesn't mean that a slower control deck isn't effective.
yeah the batterskull I was wrong lol sorry
But peacekeeper, every deck has enough removal to kill it mostly.
If you play that or moat, I think moat/ghostly is harder to get away from for other decks then a creature :O?
Here's a list of decks to consider:
G/W Maverick
Elves
Affinity
Merfolk
Show and Sneak
Reanimator
Bant Aggro (w/ or w/ out NO/Pro)
There's more, but that's a pretty good list already.
Even if Peacekeeper does end up getting removed, it usually is able to buy you plenty of turns. If this deck is given the time to get SFM/Batterskull out, CounterTop, Planeswalker's, and/or Shackles into play, the opponent is usually done for regardless if they finally find a Swords to Plowshares.
It's also in the sideboard. It's not like your bringing it in against Junk, Zoo, or Goblins.
Yeah oké that's true but just you need some options against the faster decks so that's what I'm thinking off :)
After having the chance to playtest against Goblins recently, I was able to come up with a fairly good sideboarding plan with my decklist.
My sideboard plan vs Goblins:
-4 Counterbalance
-4 Force of Will
-1 Batterskull
+4 Meddling Mage
+2 Wrath of God
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
I've been wanting the 3rd Pithing Needle in the board, and I could easily cut a Peacekeeper to fit it, but I'm not sure what I'd want to cut from my maindeck to fit it in postboard (vs Goblins).
Anyway, the plan here is that I really don't want to be 2-for-1'ing myself against Goblins with FoW, and Counterbalance sucks in this matchup. On the draw, I still have 7 answers to turn 1 Lackey, with 9 answers to turn 1 Vial. On the play, I go up to 15 answers to turn 1 Lackey. Without Vial, Meddling Mage can name key Goblins like Warren Weirding, Goblin Matron, and Goblin Ringleader. The extra body is extremely valuable. Between 4/4/2/1 SFM/Mage/Elspeth/Batterskull, I have should have enough bodies to get an active Jitte going. In playtesting, I've won several games against Goblins with an active Jitte.
Needle is huge in this matchup. Shutting down Vial is good, but it can also shut down Gempalm Incinerator, Siege Gang Bang, Goblin Tinkerer, Goblin Sharpshooter, Wasteland, and Rishadan Port. Wrath of God gives me a nice reset button for the midgame, which when combined with either Shackles, Elspeth, Batterskull, or Jitte, usually puts me in a really good spot.
Are you sure you don't want batterskull vs goblins in game 2 ???
I personally wouldn't take it out.
Hello, I'm new with the deck and wanted to know how was the MU against TES and A.N.T.? Do you have some tipps to win against them?
I'm running 2 maindeck Batterskulls. So yes, I think cutting 1 for 1 Jitte is the right call.Quote:
Are you sure you don't want batterskull vs goblins in game 2 ???
I personally wouldn't take it out.
Depends on your build.Quote:
Hello, I'm new with the deck and wanted to know how was the MU against TES and A.N.T.? Do you have some tipps to win against them?
In my list, I run Misstep, Counterspell, FoW, and CounterTop. Meddling Mages come in postboard, further improving the matchup. An early Batterskull can help get you out of Tendrils range, as well as stabilize against EtW tokens. WoG and Peacekeeper can also come in postboard to deal with EtW tokens vs TES, if you feel you need them. My combo matchup is really good.
I cannot comment on the other builds, as I have not playtested with them, but the loss of CounterTop hurts the combo matchup considerably.
For those of you running Ancestral Visions or Standstill, against which matchups do you side them out?
Merfolk and Goblins seem like an obvious reason to board out Standstill. Possibly Zoo too.
Ancestral Visions seems less matchup dependent, but seems like an easy "side out" against anything with Stifles or Standstills. Possibly also too slow against faster combo decks?
You're wrong. It is still easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
I take out Standstills against nongreen aggro decks. Submerge is the nuts against green, and Submerge is the nuts with Standstill, so logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
I'll finally post my list. I just top 8'd a local tournament with it. It was awesome.
Creatures [7]
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Instants [19]
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
Enchantments [4]
4 Standstill
Planeswalkers [4]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts [3]
2 Batterskull
1 Crucible of Worlds
Sorceries [1]
1 Wrath of God
Lands [23]
2 Plains
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Polluted Delta
1 Windswpet Heath
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
Sideboard [15]
3 Submerge
2 Wrath of God
2 Spell Pierce
2 Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Manriki
1 Crucible
1 Disenchant
The one thing I would like to improve is the Blue mirror. Any suggestions (also, what do you take out in the mirror match?)
I play UW with 1volcanic MD and a mountain side. REB is great for one of ur weakest mu's- Hive Mind and helps alot in the mirror.
Fixed.Quote:
Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat?
The thing about the Sword, is that the issue is my SFM dying, not Batterskull not being good. If SFM dies, I don't have a creature, and that is a problem. I might try Sword of Body and Mind though, and drop a WoG or something in the board for the 2nd Batterskull.
Is the 4th Clique better than the 2nd Crucible?
Playing Ancestral visions in main deck rather than Standstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
Definitely not going to happen. There is combo aplenty in LA, and Standstill can randomly be Timewalk+Recall instead of just Recall.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwi
Needing a creature doesn't hugely bother me against blue decks (I main SoBM). It presents the dilemma of keeping in cards that are bad against you (creature removal) to prevent Sword hits or siding them out and basically guaranteeing taking Sword hits for g2/3. In g1, hitting with SoBM is like a slam dunk, since few/none of the SFM lists I see maindeck sweepers, so the extra body compounds the strain on their spot removal (as does 3 Cliques to their usually 1 or 0). I like pro-blue Swords for this reason, since they remove everything but Germs and StP from the equation.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
If it's any indication, I almost always fetch SoBM first and choose not to side the second Batterskull in. It's not a wasted slot, it's just that life isn't a vital resource in blue control mirrors so having extras isn't a thing for me. Stranding Batterskull in my hand until I can hardcast it/ find another SFM is the same to me as stranding a SoBM on the table, except when I hit with SoBM, I'm getting significant value and when I hit with Batterskull, both my opponent and I are like, "meh."
As for Clique #4 or Crucible #2, I don't maindeck Crucible and only run 1 in the board, so for me the answer would be yes. Crucible is fine, but Clique is like Jace in that every time I lose one, I always want another and Crucible was almost always the card I was least happy to see, especially in game 1s. When I read that PV didn't like it either, I felt more vindicated removing it rather than keeping it in "in case I'm wrong."
Hey guys I've recently been transfering from landstill to blade control and it's been a blast. I really like the UW builds similar to Lorddotm. Something I've been testing recently that I have LOVED is Elspeth. Jace is of course amazing, but this deck wants bodies to put equipment on. Elspeth provides infinited bodies and can even pump + fly tokens over while holding a sword. Swinging with a 9/9 vig, lifesteal, pro blue/green germ can also be fun to just shut ppl down in the late game.
I have been running a 2/2 split on Jace/Els and don't see myself going back to only Jaces.
I will try it out then.Quote:
Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat?
Can you post your list for reference? The Crucible has been pretty good for me, Wastelocking has won me a fair number of games against BUG and NO RUG and other unstable decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat?
For reference, I'm playing
4 SFM, 3 Clique
4 BS, FoW, MM, StP
3 Snare
4 Vision, Jace
1 Batterskull, SoBM
3 Island, 1 Plains
4 Strand, Delta, Tundra, Factory, Waste
The last slot essentially came down to Clique or Crucible and I went with Clique because it's good against everything Crucible is, but better in many other matchups. Part of the reason I began playing this deck instead of BUGstill is because of how strong it was in the heads-up. I lost what seemed like a large majority of games, both in testing and sanctioned play, despite (in my opinion) significantly outplaying my opponents. Crucible lock was just a wash anyway when I had active Loam to stall into Deed.
My experiences are obviously anecdotal, but I think I (and most) like the idea of Crucible more than I like Crucible. Sometimes it just wins and you're like "fuck yeah." Most of them time I draw it, though, I have to wonder if it isn't just win-more. I don't cut it entirely because a copy in the board is still fine, but it's rarely a card I want to see more than any other good card in my deck. It's not even a must-counter for 2-color decks with enough basics to operate, but Clique remains one of the cards they least want to see (which I know because it's one of the cards I least want to see across from me).
You have a Tundra where I have a Crucible. I don't see that as an issue.
Any interesting reasons for Visions over Standstill, or are you in the Standstill is horrible party?
I play to my meta. Vision began as Standstill, but I live in NYC where the Legacy community is badly underdeveloped so there are lots of AEther Vials. When I go to Vestal, it's also very blue. I still carry a sleeved set of Standstills along with my alternate sideboard cards to SCG events, in case I see other decks, but in the interim, Vision is much better here.
Am I the only one who likes Standstill against Visions decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat?
standstill is good against visions yes, but standstill is just meh and forces you to board out your card draw engine, while you never board out visions.
which sword do u guys prefer? body and mind or feast and famine?
my list is pretty much identical to IsThisACatInAHat?s list, just wondering what your sb was? I want to play a 3rd equipment sb but not sure wats the best one to play, ive seen jittes, 2nd batterskull, diff sword etc.
I'm totally fine with boarding out Standstill against Merfolk, I would rather rely on stick and protecting a Stoneforge Mystic. Also, Wraths are more than enough card advantage in that match up.Quote:
Originally Posted by gypsy
Maybe not, but I prefer to Vision against Standstill decks. In a game of who has the most (and most relevant) cards, I prefer Vision because it's harder to counter (which matters a lot to me) and I don't run the risk of my opponent playing under it better than I do. Even assuming they resolve Standstill and I'm forced to break it because they stuck it with Vision @1, that's about the best way I can think of to break it: untapped and with my own draw-3 on the stack. I still side it out a lot of times against Vial decks because I need the space, but Vision is actually a really good card right now. When I stop hating Standstills in my hand, they'll come back in.Quote:
Originally Posted by lorddotm
I play the traditional Blade Control list with standstill, 1x crucible instead of 1x clique, and karakas instead of the 3rd basic island. Also 4 Jace instead of 3/1 or 2/2 split with Elspeth Errant. I run the standard counterspell suite of 4/4/3 FoW/Misstep/Snare. I find the NO RUG matchup pretty hard game 1 and after boarding it is still difficult especially when they can be running 4+ blasts (ele/pyro) . A lot of times I wish that I had counterspell in hand instead of mental misstep/snare as leaning on Force of Will to counter natural order is hard especially when they run their own playset plus daze. And green sun's zenith usually dodges mental misstep/snare.
Anyone have a good sideboard for NO RUG as well as other variants while still being able to have good matchups against Dredge etc? Dredge will be making a comeback due to 2 lists making the top 16 in the last SCG open. NO RUG and co. made huge showings proving that the Hatfields analyses of the previous SCG(s) was correct in that Stoneblade seems to have a terrible matchup vs NO RUG/variants and also that no Stoneblade list made the top 16 at Cinc. Hell, only one control list even made the top 16 and it was mono blue...Of course, we don't know what the Cinc metagame consisted of but 7 of the top 16 decks were running Green Sun's Zenith and 4 of the 7 running NO. I am eager and somewhat scared to see what Seattle has in store coming off the Cinc event. NO RUG with JaceTMS is pretty scary in itself, especially ramping into one.
Anyway, rambling done. How should we shore up the NO and its variants matchup while keeping relatively even with the rest of the field? Is it possible that running our conditional counterspells like mental misstep and spell snare/pierce actually hurting us instead of playing real hard counters like the archaic standby 'counterspell'? Or just play more sweepers/humility which makes our creatures bad as well unless equipped?
Is the consensus that Standstill is better in an environment with non-Vial aggro and combo, and Ancestral Visions better for an environment with Vial aggro and the mirror?
I only like vision(s) when playing against decks with vial and/or control decks playing only the conditional counterspell(s) like spell snare/misstep/daze/pierce since Force of Will is the only thing in those particular control decks that can 'hard' counter an Ancestral Visions once that last counter is off. Otherwise, I like standstill better against most everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
went 4-0 at my local weekly legacy event with this list
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishras Factory
4 Tundra
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vendillion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Body and Mind
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sb
1 Vendillion Clique
3 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Wrath of God
3 Path to Exile
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Spell Pierce
was pretty happy with everything, I have loved Ancestral for years and I love being able to play it again and I wouldn't play Standstill over it ever.
@crovakiet
I tested a bit vs NO RUG and it is the hardest matchup ive faced with the deck, with only 4 forces I really missed Counterspell to deal with NO itself. One of the ways I was winning was instead of fitting over the actual NO, i just tried to kill all their guys, bringing in Paths and WOGs and just fought over theyre creatures and Zeniths and it was working better then trying to counter they're stuff when they are gonna bring in 4+ REB effects. As much as I like Counterspell I find it a little hard to reasonably play it with so many non blue lands, and I dont think you need it when your tapping out/low with cliqued/SFM compared to the UW No Mystic Control that I had played before
Has anyone looked at the decklists from the Japan 2011 Legacy Nats found @ http://coverage.mtg-jp.com/jpnats11/decklist/001891/
If you don't want to be looking at Japanese characters the top 8 is listed here:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=6522
The deck I was particularly looking at/interested most in was the 2nd place U/W/G Blade Control...
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=47236
Any thoughts? Does splashing green for Knight of the Reliquary + its ability to tutor utility lands (Karakas notably absent from that particular list) and Krosan Grip in the board worth it? Especially in light of the traditional U/W list?
Or maybe I shouldn't have even bothered posting this especially since the U/W/R version is not discussed in this thread due to their underlying difference(s)?
Its an agro bant:Z.
Just a bit more defensive.
This deck doesnt have much to do with soneblade, tbh.
Hey guys I have an idea. I have messed with UW stoneblade and given that this is an equipment driven deck in a way, we want to find bodies to put the equipment on. SFM is obviously in the list, Cliques, and Bobs are other options depending on colors, but what do yall think about squadron hawk. They are cheap small, evasive bodies that you can put a stick on. And the card advantage given by running them negates our struggle to find a body if one dies to swords/GFTT etc.
They don't bring the same utility as clique, but they provide some great CA.
The hawks were tried before and eventually became cliques...Quote:
Originally Posted by sdefreit8