[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EviLDemon

I'm trying this build right now:

// Artifacts:
2 Sensei's Divining Top

// Creatures:
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique

// Planeswalkers:
2 Liliana of the Veil

// Enchantments:
3 Pernicious Deed

// Sorceries & Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay


// Lands:
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

It's working pretty well. Liliana is a must, helped in so many games. I tried to fit Deathrite Shaman, but I don't know which cards to withdraw.

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You can start with deed. It's in most cases one turn too slow and now when you run shaman, you have to hit 3+ cards to make CA.
While Lili being very strong against a lot of decks you aren't happy everytime you have to discard. She only makes CA with her ultimate or 2x sac. Not that fast imo, maybe I'll try something else in that 2 slots.
I wasn't happy with top. Against aggro it's also too slow and control is a great matchup anyway.
Don't underestimate therapies instead of hymns. With agent and strix you have all possibilities to get rid of the cards you fear atm. Hymn does this at random...
21 lands without acceleration is few in my eyes even if you want to play cc4 spells.

I've been toying with the following list:

1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Shardless Agent
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Baleful Strix
2 Esperzoa

2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Life from the Loam

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Abrupt Decay

1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

~

Might change a Strix out for another Goyf, but it run really well so far. I like the Planeswalker control lock backed by creatures.

Esperzoa + Jace + Shardless Agent nets you a ton of card advantage, too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

@EvilDemon: I'm running a very similar list right now, but still loving the Jaces. Do you miss the extra Brainstorming at all to set up Cascades?

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Nope, the top (with the help of some fetchs) do whatever I need. Also T4 for this deck is hard to reach against some decks, and liliana just helped me a lot. After T4 normally I'll try to stay with no cards in hand(to use the +1 without fear) and keep letting an abrupt decay on top with my top. After I get to this position it's hard to not win, you'll keep getting the right cards on your drawstep(always putting ingame(goyf,shardless,baleful)) and using liliana's hability. Most of the time the other player (if he doesn’t stop liliana soon) he won't be able to do anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whiley85

You can start with deed. It's in most cases one turn too slow and now when you run shaman, you have to hit 3+ cards to make CA.
While Lili being very strong against a lot of decks you aren't happy everytime you have to discard. She only makes CA with her ultimate or 2x sac. Not that fast imo, maybe I'll try something else in that 2 slots.
I wasn't happy with top. Against aggro it's also too slow and control is a great matchup anyway.
Don't underestimate therapies instead of hymns. With agent and strix you have all possibilities to get rid of the cards you fear atm. Hymn does this at random...
21 lands without acceleration is few in my eyes even if you want to play cc4 spells.

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I do think therapies are way better than hymns, but you'll need a great knowledge of the enemy's deck (which I don't have right now =/).
Deed helped me a lot against many things, but I'll try. Thanks!
I didn't played a lot, but almost any match I played top I won; It helps so much the cascade and the overall draw.

I've found that much of the time I've been wishing I had more than 2 Tops and oftentimes am forced to blind Cascade with Shardless Agent.

However, the times I've had multiple Tops on the board makes me want to punch myself in the nuts (although it's not horrible with fetches).

I've just pretty much never been sad to see Jace hit the board on top of being another blue card to pitch to Force (one of the problems the deck seems to have is a relatively low blue card count).

Another issue I've had with Liliana in testing is that with all the card advantage we generate, I've ended up in many times where I have cards, they have 0 cards so I don't want to +1 Liliana.

I've been having a decent amount of succes with an a bit of the wall build:


//Creatures:
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Shardless Agent
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

//Spells:
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Force of Will
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam

//Planeswalkers:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

//Artifacts:
1 Umezawa's Jitte

//Lands:
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Swamp
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Wasteland

//Sideboard
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Thoughtseize
3 Engineered Plague
2 Pernicious Deed
1 The Abyss
3 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vraska the Unseen


In honesty, vraska and the abyss are not suposed to be in the sideboard. I just enjoy playing some cookie cards! :)

Piloted this to a 5-0-1 at a local turney yesterday.

Small recap:
Round 1: bye
Round 2: Thalia Zoo.
G1: I am able to handle his early pressure, stabilize and bury his lands with recurring loam/waste.
G2: A long one as I am unable to apply pressure, but i keep him away trough a t3 the abyss. I finally get some agents going along with jace and its a win.
Win with a t3 the abyss: Achievement completed! :D
2-0
Round 3: My cusine, playing UG infect.
G1: open a hand of 3x Abrupts, which leads to a blowout.
G2: I make a terrible misplay, and he wins with a misdirection on my decay.
G3: I am able to throw a submerge on his t2 all-in play and takes it from there.
3-0
Round 4: Mirror, against BUG control. Differint build, but mirror nonetheless.
G1: He grinds this one out through 2x thragtusk (Which is awesome in the mirror, sooo much value!
g2: Close one, with lots of grinding away. I do however manage to stick my Vraska, and I win with her assasins following a misplay from my opp.
G3: I am closing in on the win, but time is called and I am a turn or 2 away from closing the deal.
3-0-1
Round 5: Elves.
G1: He combos, i lose.
G2+3: Plagues and deeds, along with timely disruption takes him down, even though i almost punted G2.
4-0-1
Round 6: BW taxes
G1: Lots of discard flowing back and forth, but I stick a jace, and are able to pile a visions to follow a agent twice, and thats enough to seal the deal.
Really long game, means very short time for g2.
G2: I just play defence, not allowing serious threats, and he scoops with an emty battlefield as we go to time.
5-0-1

All in all I loved this deck. I wouldnt consider changing very much from the main, weakest card is lili, she might become a jace.
A couple of thragtusks are also being considered having seen them in action, they are so much value, and I love value and CA.

Bad MUs include burn and S&T. Other than that i feel good. I like never beeing out of a match, as this can com back from a lot! :D

So I've been playing a list pretty close to Demars' original one and I've been crushing. Played a bunch of games against Burn and UR Delver the other day and very literally just died in a fire almost every time. Any ideas? Early Hymns were good but putting a clock on them was hard. Basically need multiple Goyfs to race. Scavenging Ooze was decent out of the board but not great at all. Has anyone tried a countertop package out of the SB? Seems like its crush burn and a lot of other random rogue MUs. we already have lots of ways to manipulate the top of our deck so it doesn't seem too hard to fit in.

Burn is traditionally a tough matchup for BUG anyways. I bring in Oozes and Jitte since that life gain is key to staying alive.

I haven't found UR to be as bad because they tend to have less burn spells for dudes and countermagic... which makes Abrupt Decay better against them.

Post board, I actually take out Hymns, Jaces, and Cliques. Hymns are terrible mid-late game against a deck that can drop it's hand so quickly. Jace is too slow and Cliques only trade with creatures and don't actually defend you like a Tarmogoyf does.

I actually keep Force of Will in because we generally generate enough card advantage to compensate for it and if Price of Progress resolves, we generally die (even if we fetch basics and Wasteland our own lands).

I've gone back to testing this deck. Although the main list that people are currently working with is good, I think there is one card that would greatly help the deck: Deathrite Shaman.

[edit: going back through the thread, I see that this guy has been suggested several times, but I haven't seen too many lists actually incorporating it.]

In this deck, Deathrite Shaman performs several very important functions:
-It provides both reach AND lifegain, both of which can be a problem for BUG. It can drain the last few points of damage in a stalemate or help keep you alive and out of Lightning Bolt range after you've established board control
-99% of the time it will be capable of providing acceleration as well. In a format full of fetches and Wastelands, you shoudn't typically have much trouble using it for this purpose. This deck is incredibly mana-hungry and has pretty awkward mana requirements.
-It gives you a bit of breathing room against Goblins if they have an aggressive start with Lackey. It also blocks unthreshed Mongeese and unflipped Delvers like a champ, and will help keep Mongoose small.
-It serves as maindeck graveyard hate, and will help out against decks with annoying recursion strategies.
-It's another one-drop for a deck that otherwise doesn't have much early action.

Now admittedly, it's not a very impressive card to flip via Shardless Agent, but that's a small risk to run for so many benefits. And Agent is only one part of this deck's strategy, and the list I've been testing only has 3 anyways.

Now the question is, how do we make room for this card and what changes should be made. I think we can cut the land count down to 21 since Shaman will be providing us some mana, and also we should consider changing the split of Decay/Deed from 3/3 to 4/2. I think we can also shave a Sensei's Top. I'm also thinking we can cut either the Baleful Strix or Snapcaster Mages, or one of each.

As for the sideboard, I definitely feel that 3 Counterbalances are a necessity, and perhaps some more SDT's to help out with that strategy. Without the counterspells, Storm strategies will be problematic, and Counterbalance is also incredibly good against stuff like Burn and RUG. I also think there should be some cards to help out against the UW Miracles deck that is very popular now, and I think more Jaces and Vendilion Cliques are probably the best options. Maybe some Malestrom Pulse(s) too.

[edit 2: I see that both the RUG and BUG cascade decks are beginning to converge into a 4-color monstrosity. I think that this might be a great approach going forward, and that BBE and red removal might actually strengthen the deck more than the midrangey elements found in the pure BUG build...]

As of now, this is my list; i'm going to a tournament on saturday so i'll let you guys know how it goes.

EDIT: Well i went 2-3. I won all my creature based matchups, but lost to U/W Miracles three times. Apparently we have no good answer to Jace, the Mind Sculptor and we need more of it. don't know how to fix it, but we can't pressure Jace enough with the creatures we have, one Terminus and we're gone and we cannot counter it unless we have force of will. The game i won against them i drew 3 force of will. So i was 1-6 against Miracles.

Creatures
1 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Vendillion Clique
4 Deathrite Shaman

Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed

Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Abrupt Decay

Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sorceries
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Hymn to Tourach

Basic Lands
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp

Lands
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil

Let me know what you think, it has some weaknesses to both Mother of Runes and Omniscience, but it has the tools to defeat it to.

I've been playtesting alot lately with a rather different BUG list, and im quite suprised i've never really found anything like it elsewhere.


CREATURES (12)
4 Shardless Agent
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman

SORCERIES (3)
3 Ancestral Vision

INSTANTS (11)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

PLANESWALKERS (4)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

ARTIFACTS (8)
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Crucible of Worlds

LANDS (22)
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Island

SIDEBOARD
1 Darkblast
3 Engineered Plague
2 Dread of Night
1 Nihil spellbomb
4 Counterbalance
4 Thoughtseize

I really think the deck synergizes well, and i've never really understood why no1 really has tried to play tezz in a non superartifact heavy list. Even though you might not just hit his ulti pretty much as soon as you drop him, hes +1 and and -1 are still really strong! The chance of not finding an artifact on his +1 is superslim even thought only playing 16 artifacts esp considering you play loads fetchlands and SDT, + you got academy ruins.

I think this deck has very strong control mirror match with very strong CA with the baleful + shardless + ancestral vision and both brainstorm + top + jace to set up vision. Tezz ofc also is very strong CA if he lives, which strixes easily make sure he does. Academy ruin strix combo or shardless is also extremly potent lategame, considering there is also crucible in there it's hard to ruin the synergy!

Vs creature decks and aggro its also kinda good, baleful is king vs non mother creature decks, Decay is also very nice vs RUG since you dont have to worry about daze, pierce etc. Sboard is also kinda heavy with anticreature decks esp since mother rune can be annoying with decay as only target removal, however since addition of needle + vedalken in main things are much easier, there is also EE ofc :).

I did playtest loads vs mav, RUG, death tax, and miracles and found those MU to be pretty nice, although i still need to playtest vs combo, although sideboard is mostly decdicated vs combo, IE 4 counterbalance and thoughtsize, figured it would fare ok vs most cept it's probably rather weak vs show and tell. Venser does not seem worthy of SBslots although i feel its the only real counter vs omniscience. Goblins i presume is hard mu as always with bug, esp without deed, therefore i 3 engyplague in board, altho guess still not enough?

From my experience there aint that many slots to switch, the only ones im not beeing fairly certain on are the pithing needle and the vedalken, since mostly those matchups can anyways be handled most of the time. I'd really like to have a 4 Decay since its such a monster card, and also if i could fit a darkblast in main. There is also the option of having ratchet bomb instead of EE although i feel like EE is strictly better cept the fact you can cascade into ratchet, although from my testing its not often you don't know what ur cascading into.

Would really appreciate some comments ! )

Edit: wrong cascade thread

@drfontaine: it looks like your list could benefit from 1 or 2 Trinket Mage, as you are running Engineered Explosives, Sensei's Divining Top, and Pithing Needle Maindeck. You could probably drop a Top if you did that.

Also, I'd drop a Shaman for another Jace. In my experience, having a second one to pitch to FoW is helpful, plus the redundancy is great if your opponent takes out the first one.

Fun list and looks like it could be quite effective. The Tezzeret + Strix synergy is awesome. And to help Tezzeret out, you could consider some more mana acceleration from Dimir Signet or Talisman of Dominance.

Superbig Thanks for the feedback Kyle!

I would like to avoid the path of U/B tezz deck and play fullset of signet acceleration, and instead rely somewhat on the superallround and powerful deathrite instead, especially since its in most matchups a must remove, which offers protection for my animated b strixes, or other artifacts. Which can otherwize be quite a setback if you -1 tezz and ur creature gets removed by plow.

Concerning the Trinket mage, i feel like shardless is just straight up better since hes an artifact IE can be tutored + animated with tezz, and placed on top with academy ruin. He also is quite good at finding tops on his own, and best of all he casts the spell for free instead of ending up in ur hand :). And in my current version i even reduced shardless to 3 pieces. He suffers the same issues as shardless IE a 2/2 body without eq which is very lacking esp for 3 mana :/, therefore i desperatly need the additional synergy of beeing an artifact ;). I also removed the pithing needle main since it's just too much of a dead card sometimes. I would however like the ability to find EE since its my only reliable tool vs mother rune which is very annoying vs this deck.

I did however try a new approach for the list and can't decide whichever version i'd have the most faith with in a tournament. Right now im trying a version with counterbalance in main instead of SB since it does idd free up some more space in the very powerful sideboard of BUG colors! Also CB is an extremely powerful card to casc into, and it really is strong obv for the combo mu, but naturally also vs RUG, altho i feel this deck with 4x Adecay, 4x Baleful, and 3x Deathrite is exremely good vs rug, the only downside beeing shaky manabase.

I cant decide which version i like the most, since the CB is ofc abit more versatile meanwhile the original list is better vs the fair decks, and esp good in control mirror! The one thing that annoys me is the worse MAV mu with the CB version, since so few counters vs mother rune preboard. Thalia is also very annoying since it messes up the deck while having first strike vs strix, altho dread of night takes care of that postboard.

Tellme what you think of this version pls!! :)

1 vedalken shackles
4 sensei divining top
1 Engy Explosives

4 Baleful Strix
3 Shardless Agent
3 Deathrite Shaman

3 Counterbalance

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

2 Jace
3 Tezz

2 Ancestral Vision
1 Life from the Loam

SB:

1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Nihil spellbomb
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Pithing Needle

X???????

3 Dread of Night
3 Engineering Plague

1 Darkblast

3 Thoughtseize

1 slot unsure

THANKS alot !!

I think in any of these decks where you're trying to cascade into Ancestral Visions or suspend it on T1, playing less than 4 is probably incorrect.

Regarding amount of ancestral vision i think that's really wrong, at least if your trying to play more of a control build. In that case #1 priority is surviving the early phase of the game, drawing multiple ancestral in early game doesn't improve board state. Imo if you only manage a single ancestral during a game its most often enough to win the game anyways. Praying you will cascade into ancestral is also just complete gamble, and for those kinda decks i think you should be playing WATERFALL cascade which is kinda different deck with RED, there you will blindly cascade into anything improving board state or you can just strike opponent with lightning in face! Those decks are obviuosly alot more about tempo which is quite different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drfontaine

Regarding amount of ancestral vision i think that's really wrong, at least if your trying to play more of a control build. In that case #1 priority is surviving the early phase of the game, drawing multiple ancestral in early game doesn't improve board state. Imo if you only manage a single ancestral during a game its most often enough to win the game anyways. Praying you will cascade into ancestral is also just complete gamble, and for those kinda decks i think you should be playing WATERFALL cascade which is kinda different deck with RED, there you will blindly cascade into anything improving board state or you can just strike opponent with lightning in face! Those decks are obviuosly alot more about tempo which is quite different.

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That's the thing - with DeMars' original list, you actually don't pray you cascade into Ancestral that often. Between the Tops, Brainstorms, Jaces, you have a pretty good chance of setting it up yourself.

Also, it's understood that Ancestral is the best thing we can cascade into, so it's important to maximize the chances of doing that or suspending it on T1.

Playing it as a 2-of just means you're 1) even less likely to draw it in your opener, 2) even less likely to be able to set up a cascade into it, and 3) very unlikely to blind cascade into it (worst case scenerio with cascades).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

That's the thing - with DeMars' original list, you actually don't pray you cascade into Ancestral that often. Between the Tops, Brainstorms, Jaces, you have a pretty good chance of setting it up yourself.

Also, it's understood that Ancestral is the best thing we can cascade into, so it's important to maximize the chances of doing that or suspending it on T1.

Playing it as a 2-of just means you're 1) even less likely to draw it in your opener, 2) even less likely to be able to set up a cascade into it, and 3) very unlikely to blind cascade into it (worst case scenerio with cascades).

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Big problem is however there is never in the early game enough time to setup a known cascade, since the only real working scenario is when you find something truly useful from looking at top. Cause brainstorming to set it up early game just costs to much mana, and chances are your mana sources comes from fetches, ie fucking up your setup. And this in conjunction with wastelands, and daze/pierce etc makes it so unreliable anyways. So in a controlling build casting an agent for random cascade is generally not worth it from my pov. Unless ofc the agent itself presents worthwhile board presence on its own.

This is the reason that in a controlling build i find the agent to be rather lacking, altho with the synergy with tezz at least it makes it decent, and considering it wins you game mid/late game in control mirrors or when estabilshed control and you can afford to setup ur cascades i still find it a pretty decent slot.

I am however after further testign rather skeptical about CB in this BUG build. Playing a non reactive spell that can get countered (best case) turn 2 can sometimes already be too late, CB shines when it has access to 1mana wrath, or else it suffers to much tempoloss. There is a possibilty to include it as a 1of and not relying strategywize on the card, but just include as strong card, and therefore making more room in SB.

I do however realize the reasoning is completely different considering a more mid/tempo oriented build. Which i guess this thread originally was about.

I am once again back to playing 3 ancestral in my controlling build, and just reduced shardless as a 3of.

In a controlling build, you shouldn't be blind jamming a T3 Agent anyways. The longer you hold off on casting an Agent, the better your cascades become.

Early turns should be spent clearing out the board and establishing your mana / setting up for future turns, imo. It's not like you're really going to be aggroing out with a T3 Agent anyways.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

In a controlling build, you shouldn't be blind jamming a T3 Agent anyways. The longer you hold off on casting an Agent, the better your cascades become.

Early turns should be spent clearing out the board and establishing your mana / setting up for future turns, imo. It's not like you're really going to be aggroing out with a T3 Agent anyways.

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Like i've been saying all along :/.

DrFontaine - Maybe I just like Intuition and Loam too much, but I think adding those two cards would be a powerful addition with all those artifacts. Intuition for Loam, Ruins, and relevant artifact can be backbreaking.

Changed the build a little(thanks to whiley85 and Esper3k):

// Artifacts:
2 Sensei's Divining Top

// Creatures:
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Baleful Strix
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Deathrite Shaman

// Planeswalkers:
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

// Sorceries & Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay


// Lands:
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland

The deathrites sure are more handy than pernicious deed. Deed sure helps many times, but the mana advantage and damage from deathrite helps more. Of course I moved deed to the sideboard.
Not that Liliana isn't good, but Jace's control fit better in this deck. I saw that after playing a lot with both.
Cabal Therapy over hymn, always.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drfontaine

I've been playtesting alot lately with a rather different BUG list, and im quite suprised i've never really found anything like it elsewhere.


CREATURES (12)
4 Shardless Agent
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman

SORCERIES (3)
3 Ancestral Vision

INSTANTS (11)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

PLANESWALKERS (4)
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas

ARTIFACTS (8)
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Pithing Needle
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Vedalken Shackles
1 Crucible of Worlds

LANDS (22)
1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
1 Academy Ruins
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Island

SIDEBOARD
1 Darkblast
3 Engineered Plague
2 Dread of Night
1 Nihil spellbomb
4 Counterbalance
4 Thoughtseize

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How about in the SB -3 Plague, +3 Deed? And for the MD, drop the Shackles for a 2nd Jitte (Jitte is totally AMAZING with all the little guys, Jitte stops Mother, its extra lifegain, etc.). Maybe to improve the combo MU, -1 Jace, -1 Needle for +2 Counterbalance? (Move the Needle to the SB?) I mean Counterbalance is obviously really good, and as just a 2-of you shouldn't run into (dead) multiples. Plus it'll free up SB space. CB is also pretty sweet to cascade into.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Greenpoe

How about in the SB -3 Plague, +3 Deed? And for the MD, drop the Shackles for a 2nd Jitte (Jitte is totally AMAZING with all the little guys, Jitte stops Mother, its extra lifegain, etc.). Maybe to improve the combo MU, -1 Jace, -1 Needle for +2 Counterbalance? (Move the Needle to the SB?) I mean Counterbalance is obviously really good, and as just a 2-of you shouldn't run into (dead) multiples. Plus it'll free up SB space. CB is also pretty sweet to cascade into.

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Thanks mr greenpoe!!

I def think the option with CB is viable for all the reasons you suggested although sometimes it's clonky when you drop it early and since it doesnt affect the current board threats, it can be hard to catch up when you lack the 1mana wrath :/. I think if i were to run it i'd run few copies like perhaps two MD, but right now i prefer CB in SB.

Regarding jitte i played it in main for awhile, thinking it would be another answer to mother etc, although when mother is present she most of the time can prevent combat dmg IE it's hard to get counters on jitte, so in practice it dosnt work as well, also most decks running mother also run jitte on their own, meaning you never really get to land your jitte, and even less likely activate it. Deathrite shaman is better of doing his own work rather than swinging with jitte aswell i figuered. And vs rug/mav gettin active jitte considering their removal is most of the time to slow :/, since they can so easily remove your creature by the time you manage to eq. It's now in SB for games vs goblin/meerfolk! I rather play more EE in main like 2-3 since it can also be dropped for free and animated by tezz same turn for 4 mana for 5/5 haste etc ! Serves as great mother removal etc aswell!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drfontaine

Thanks mr greenpoe!!

I def think the option with CB is viable for all the reasons you suggested although sometimes it's clonky when you drop it early and since it doesnt affect the current board threats, it can be hard to catch up when you lack the 1mana wrath :/. I think if i were to run it i'd run few copies like perhaps two MD, but right now i prefer CB in SB.

Regarding jitte i played it in main for awhile, thinking it would be another answer to mother etc, although when mother is present she most of the time can prevent combat dmg IE it's hard to get counters on jitte, so in practice it dosnt work as well, also most decks running mother also run jitte on their own, meaning you never really get to land your jitte, and even less likely activate it. Deathrite shaman is better of doing his own work rather than swinging with jitte aswell i figuered. And vs rug/mav gettin active jitte considering their removal is most of the time to slow :/, since they can so easily remove your creature by the time you manage to eq. It's now in SB for games vs goblin/meerfolk! I rather play more EE in main like 2-3 since it can also be dropped for free and animated by tezz same turn for 4 mana for 5/5 haste etc ! Serves as great mother removal etc aswell!

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Well I think you can't attack with an 5/5 EE you just dropped in the same turn. Am I wrong? Isn't it still sick?

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Originally Posted by whiley85

Well I think you can't attack with an 5/5 EE you just dropped in the same turn. Am I wrong? Isn't it still sick?

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artifacts dosnt have summ sickness :O, at least thats what i thot )). Anyways its a great way to kill jace. More EE is also strong in miracles mu, in order to kill stoopid angels. Miracles deck which might also be the strongest atm ;)

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Originally Posted by drfontaine

artifacts dosnt have summ sickness :O

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Creatures do, so if artifact turns into a creature it has summoning sickness =P

EDIT: Sry I wasn't clear, meant that it has summoning sickness if it came to play that turn =) So any artifacts played 1> turn before can attack ^^

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Originally Posted by arbiter

Creatures do, so if artifact turns into a creature it has summoning sickness =P

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Perhaps time to look it up then XD. But with that reasoning it seems i cannot attack with a dimir signet if i animate with tezz that turn, even though it's been in play for a decade no? I mean then it turns a creature and it cannot attack since it gains summoning sicknz the when it gets a creature. That dosnt seem right ).

But perhaps ur right, anwyays if its been in play you can at least animate and attack, so semihaste i guess :/ XD

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Originally Posted by drfontaine

Perhaps time to look it up then XD. But with that reasoning it seems i cannot attack with a dimir signet if i animate with tezz that turn, even though it's been in play for a decade no? I mean then it turns a creature and it cannot attack since it gains summoning sicknz the when it gets a creature. That dosnt seem right ).

But perhaps ur right, anwyays if its been in play you can at least animate and attack, so semihaste i guess :/ XD

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I'm pretty sure the same problem was with factories for a decade... ^^ couldn't pump itself while blocking when it came into play on your turn. Factory as a land could do that instantly.

Nevertheless the ability of tezz is indeed great since you often animate an artifact you cast one turn before. You usually can't cast Tezz and and artifact that doesn't cost 0 in the same turn.

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Originally Posted by whiley85

I'm pretty sure the same problem was with factories for a decade... ^^ couldn't pump itself while blocking when it came into play on your turn. Factory as a land could do that instantly.

Nevertheless the ability of tezz is indeed great since you often animate an artifact you cast one turn before. You usually can't cast Tezz and and artifact that doesn't cost 0 in the same turn.

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GREAT anyways was confused, just thot of it when i realized i need more EE in main that it can in fact be cast for 0, IE the given example. Thanks alot for clearing it up!! greatly appreciated!!!

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Originally Posted by drfontaine

Thanks mr greenpoe!!

I def think the option with CB is viable for all the reasons you suggested although sometimes it's clonky when you drop it early and since it doesnt affect the current board threats, it can be hard to catch up when you lack the 1mana wrath :/. I think if i were to run it i'd run few copies like perhaps two MD, but right now i prefer CB in SB.

Regarding jitte i played it in main for awhile, thinking it would be another answer to mother etc, although when mother is present she most of the time can prevent combat dmg IE it's hard to get counters on jitte, so in practice it dosnt work as well, also most decks running mother also run jitte on their own, meaning you never really get to land your jitte, and even less likely activate it. Deathrite shaman is better of doing his own work rather than swinging with jitte aswell i figuered. And vs rug/mav gettin active jitte considering their removal is most of the time to slow :/, since they can so easily remove your creature by the time you manage to eq. It's now in SB for games vs goblin/meerfolk! I rather play more EE in main like 2-3 since it can also be dropped for free and animated by tezz same turn for 4 mana for 5/5 haste etc ! Serves as great mother removal etc aswell!

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Hm that's true, maybe 2-3 copies of Inquisition or Clique, since they can be good cascades (and EE is a really bad cascade!) which will help in the combo MU too. (or if a 4c build could be stable, then Tidehollow Sculler could work - he's an artifact too)

Has anyone tried Garruk 1.0 in this deck? I've been testing a build with Garruk Wildspeaker as a 2-of and he's been absolutely fantastic. He does a few wonderful things for the deck: (1) his mana-acceleration means that you can cast him, then drop a 2-drop, or a 3-drop if you've got another land or Shaman open; (2) his mana-accel also helps you play out all the cards you draw with this deck; (3) you can cast him, +1, then ultimate next turn - which is a big deal in a deck full of 1/1's, 1/2's and 2/2's as it means that you can untap and frequently swing with 12 or 16 trampling power....and that's just all the things he does with his +1! His -1 ability is very nice as well. In the build I've been testing, I've been running Tarmogoyf because it's either an either clock vs combo and control or its a giant wall vs aggro. I could justify cutting one, since the deck doesn't want to rush out the floodgates obviously, and because the longer the game goes on, the bigger he'll be (this deck has a lot of different cardtypes - Planeswalkers, Sorcerories, artifacts, creatures, instants and land of course - so you can get him to a 6/7 even without your opponent's yard). But I think either 3 or 4 Tarmogoyf (you could add a Thoughtseize, Decay or Vision) is necessary so that with it + Garruk (+1 then ultimate as needed), you actually have a pretty solid clock. Actually, Garruk has been so good I've considered adding a 4th.


4 Shardless Agent
4 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf

3 Ancestral Vision

3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Garruk Wildspeaker

1 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek

1 Bayou
3 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Island

Oh man, that's exactly what I thought a few days ago. Haven't actually tried it yet, though. Good to hear that he works well.

So I've still been doing well with Demars's original version, plus some changes to include Abrupt Decay. I was just thinking of incorporating Deathrite Shaman so glad to see that's pretty much the consensus here. Cutting Deed or at least moving it to the board and trimming a land or two makes sense.

I'm curious why everyone seems to have moved away from Hymn to Tourach? It makes the mana occasionally awkward but that card is a beast for me. Awesome card in general but extra strong in this deck - we have Goyf and now Shaman to benefit, Wasteland to help wreck they're mana if we hit land, and Visions to press the CA further. Plus taking it out seems like it'd make the combo MU worse. Also no one playing Ghastly Demise at all surprises me. i know Decay is Decay but I've liked still having a one-mana removal as there's lots of Maverick and Goblins in my area. The one-of Tiago is something else I was never upset about seeing, and I see that's gone too. And taking out Clique just seems wrong, especially now we're running Shamans and no Deeds - it's a sweet clock which the deck needs, and again, helps combo. Just curious why there has been move away from these cards. Demise or Tiago I could see but no Hymn or Clique just seems bad to me.

Also I love Strix but does it do enough? Seems like we want more high-impact cards. And Therapy is one of my favourite cards ever but I'm not sure this is a Therapy deck, nothing we actively want to sacrifice.

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Originally Posted by dscherli

So I've still been doing well with Demars's original version, plus some changes to include Abrupt Decay. I was just thinking of incorporating Deathrite Shaman so glad to see that's pretty much the consensus here. Cutting Deed or at least moving it to the board and trimming a land or two makes sense.

I'm curious why everyone seems to have moved away from Hymn to Tourach? It makes the mana occasionally awkward but that card is a beast for me. Awesome card in general but extra strong in this deck - we have Goyf and now Shaman to benefit, Wasteland to help wreck they're mana if we hit land, and Visions to press the CA further. Plus taking it out seems like it'd make the combo MU worse. Also no one playing Ghastly Demise at all surprises me. i know Decay is Decay but I've liked still having a one-mana removal as there's lots of Maverick and Goblins in my area. The one-of Tiago is something else I was never upset about seeing, and I see that's gone too. And taking out Clique just seems wrong, especially now we're running Shamans and no Deeds - it's a sweet clock which the deck needs, and again, helps combo. Just curious why there has been move away from these cards. Demise or Tiago I could see but no Hymn or Clique just seems bad to me.

Also I love Strix but does it do enough? Seems like we want more high-impact cards. And Therapy is one of my favourite cards ever but I'm not sure this is a Therapy deck, nothing we actively want to sacrifice.

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In DeMars' version, since the whole idea is to maximize the card advantage you get from your cascades, I think Hymn is great. I also kept a couple Ghastly Demises when I played the list just to deal with Moms and Lackeys.

I personally like Deed more than Shaman since the list is more controlling and Deed gives you a reset button + gets you Enchantment into the yard for 'goyfs. Cascading into Deathrite also feels very underwhelming when you consider all the other awesome cards you could be cascading into instead.

I think Hymn stresses the manabase a little too much for the MD. It's a fairly incredible (game-winning) card for 2-mana, but you'll get Wasted a lot. I think it belongs in the SB so you can bring it in vs. combo/control. Overall, I think this deck is really well positioned. You've got your combo killers (Force, Clique in the MD, then postboard bring in Hymns and targeted discard), your gravehate (Shaman + whatever you've got in the SB), and vs. control you have MD Planeswalkers, plenty of card advantage, and a million ways to fight enemy Jaces from control (Flash+Cascade both make them not bounce your creatures- then postboard, you have Hymns & discard). Then vs. creature decks, you have Shaman for lifegain, Abrupt Decays to stop tempo decks cold, Baleful Strix as your pseudo-removal, and Deeds postboard as your sweepers (And of course, you've got Clique/Goyf/Agent as blockers when necessary). It's a really powerful deck right now and no matter what the matchup, you've always got a good fighting shot.

Anyone been watching the Invitationals? Looks like Todd Anderson (went 3-1 on Legacy) is rocking a very similar list to DeMars version. He seems to be running Deathrites as well.

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Anyone been watching the Invitationals? Looks like Todd Anderson (went 3-1 on Legacy) is rocking a very similar list to DeMars version. He seems to be running Deathrites as well.

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Gerry T 4-0ed the legacy portion as well and was playing a nearly identical list.

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Anyone been watching the Invitationals? Looks like Todd Anderson (went 3-1 on Legacy) is rocking a very similar list to DeMars version. He seems to be running Deathrites as well.

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http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._vs_joe_b.html

I'm so happy to see this deck doing so well in a big championship. My first deck in legacy, and I'm still buying the goyf, forces and some other cards, but playing on mws and with proxy. It's good to see that this deck can beat the metagame.

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Originally Posted by 264505

Gerry T 4-0ed the legacy portion as well and was playing a nearly identical list.

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He would have been 3-1 if I didnt get cute in sideboarding :P
I saw very little resistance from his deck outside of spot temoval too. Guess i learned my lesson with a trial by fire. Btw im on combo elves. :D

Yeah I actually think fast combo can be tough for the deck since outside of Force, we don't have much of a way to interact with them until T2 or 3 usually.