If you run tops then you should run fetches. The more shuffling the better your options the more consistent you can make the deck. Stifle shouldn't be a problem.
Seth
Printable View
If you run tops then you should run fetches. The more shuffling the better your options the more consistent you can make the deck. Stifle shouldn't be a problem.
Seth
@Seth: Have you ever tried to include some plains in your land base? With the 6 blood moon effects in your MD, do you only rely on the petal to produce the white mana?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
Current list. Please comment. Sent from cell so I used abbreviations.
3 City
4 Tomb
5 red fetchs
8 mountains
4 spirt guide
4 recruiter
4 Painter
1 magus of moon
1 welder
4 grindstone
3 top
3 magma jet
4 bolt
5 blasts
1 l petal
2 e. bridge
4 blood moon
board:
4 thorn of a
4 surgical
2 e bridge
2 spellskite
2 koth
1 jaya
That's a lot of burn. Interesting. How is it working out for you. I like your land base. That should be stable. I would stress running one jaya in the main. Otherwise looks interesting. Why the burn over blast effects.
I have tried a plains but you sort of always want a mountain. It isn't important to be able to cast the e tutor most of the time so it's worth taking the hit when a blood moon and mountain are mostly better.
Seth
The burn helps to stabilize until e. bridge or combo
Lambert stabilize against what? Recruiter actually looks a lot weaker in your build because you're only running 1 welder and nothing else really to go get. Blasts are much better at playing the control route than burn spells are so I'd drop 2-3 burn of your choice and add a recruit target and two blasts or vice versa.
Regarding the whole Witchbane Orb conversatioon I tried to bring up: I went on vacation for the past week so obv wasn't around to talk about it. Moving on;
My list is pretty standard, I have been playing a lot of TES lately and haven't been testing Painter. It's pretty similar to Kapt'n Cook's:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
4 Arid Mesa
4 Mountain
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
3 Goblin Welder
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Chrome Mox
2 Faithless Looting
2 Magma Jet
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
The sideboard has Koths and Pyroclasms and Tormod's Crypt/Faerie Macabre, an extra blast or two and then three or four Witchbane Orbs.
I used to play Leyline. And I have learned to mulligan aggressively with the deck even before that. My first experience with the deck was GP Ghent, where I literally picked up the deck from a friend and went 6-3 day one, losing to Red decks. Don't remember what my sideboard was, I think I even had an Anarchy in there because playing Trials the day before I got pissed off by Humility. Anyways, the only advice I got about the deck was that Blood Moon or an early combo is good, mulligan to a hand that actually does something. And sticking to my guns, I pulled off some pretty sick mulligans, winning a couple times with a four card hand, and of course five and six card mulligans as well. After that experience I added Leyline for Tendrils/Burn/discard and all the things that hate on Painter. I found myself not liking the No-Leyline-Ship-It plan, and even splashed white for a short time for eTutor and a little RiP/Helm combo action. Total junk. Nowadays I'm back to the mono red version because Blood Moon is tits. Plus my particular deck is all "original", Beta or Original BB printings, my style of pimp. Beta REBs, Dark Blood Moons, shit looks awesome. So that leads me to have card preferences that might not always be a 100% optimal, but I won't play something crap just because it's from X set.
With the preface out of the way, my findings with Orb are mixed. In games two/three, you're likely to be going the mono-red control route. Therefore, I figured that with Welder and Lootings and other library manipulation with Jets and Tops, you can shave some "percentage points" for less optimal cards without affecting you're mulligan decision tree. Consistency is the premise, here. So to pheonix and Drew, this is my list and theories behind it all. As I said I haven't played the deck consistently as of late so your 2 cents are worth a lot :)
Well Jandax... I've never tried the Welder painter version, 'cause I find it to GY dependant.... Now I know, that it has to rely on the GY, since you're playing welder, but the danish meta is all about the hate..
I would really like to test the Welder version, since it allows for supreme combat tricks, but maybe when the meta settles on a more fair environment, I'll give it a try :)
I'm going a bit more old school tomorrow, when Danish Legacy Masters 2013 goes down... My list for saturday is as follows:
3x Magus of the Moon
4x Blood Moon
4x Painter's Servant
4x Grindstone
3x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Imperial Recruiter
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4x Simian Spirit Guide
2x Chrome Mox
1x Lotus Petal
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Lightning Bolt
10x Mountains (Arabian Night edition... Gotta pimp FTW, right guys? ;))
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
Sideboard:
3x Pyrokinesis
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Faerie Macabre
1x Red Elemental Blast
2x Trinisphere
1x Manic Vandal
1x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Ensnaring Bridge
The 2 Trinisphere in the SB is a test, I'm not sure wether to play Spheres or Needles tomorrow.. I got the Revokers against DRS, LED's and stuff, but do I need extra?
I think my biggest concern tomorrow are the U/R shelled show decks... I hate Eldrazi's, but I'm guessing it's a simple choice of boarding the stones out for the bridges and the extra revoker maybe?
What do you think? :)
For your list against show and tell I think I would go -3 blood moon -4 grindstone and bring in the revoker, the bridges, the trinispheres (cantrips? not too sure. otherwise keep in the moons) and the 7th blast and play control.
I think the best way to do well is to just know your deck and be comfortable with it.
For everyone, I am really interested in Seth's decision to try out firebolt. I think if I were to make the switch I would just cut the 3 bolts maindeck and go with those. I am still hesitant because the 3 damage and instant speed help out random scenarios. But the card advantage and even greater synergy with faithless looting/grindstoning yourself have me intrigued. If anyone wants to help me out in data collection, make notes of when you draw/play your lightning bolts whether you would prefer firebolt in its place. This also includes times where you would want to flashback.
Jandax, if you've been playing TES a bunch, I'd suggest trying to fit Thorn of Amethyst in the SB if possible. I have found a set of Thorns very helpful in a variety of matchups aside from Storm too including against Show & Tell decks, Reanimator and Burn. Welder can support and kind of abuse Thorn as well.
Since I haven't played a Welder-heavy build in a while (I tend towards phoenix's concern about GY dependence), I don't have a great feel for it in the current meta. But would a 4th Top not be worth it? Seems like you could much more easily get Tops on the board and in the yard and turn each Welder into an extra draw every turn...while getting the added overall consistency from an extra Top. Although I guess I'm not considering the red color count for Chrome Mox.
Generally though, your card choices and reasoning seem solid. I personally like to avoid mulligans but your point that the deck can win through more selective keeps is totally valid. Yours and Kap'n's lists do make me miss the stronger Welder plan because that ability is just so stupidly good.
The idea of testing Firebolt with Looting is interesting, and also maybe in a list like yours, lambert.
I like the heavy burn plan but have usually found that approach increases the amount of times the deck runs out of gas. That's probably why I have favored Magma Jet over Lightning Bolt when the meta allows it because many times I play a Bolt and then feel like "...and then what?". I wonder if Firebolt might help there. I'd also agree with sroncor that Jaya should probably be in the MD, which would address lack of Recruiter targets Kap'n mentioned. Jaya can finish the burn win condition and works well behind Bridge also.
At a minimum, I'd suggest replacing a single Bolt with Jaya. Even though the Flashback is expensive, Firebolt is tempting too unless you think the 3 damage is crucial in your meta. If I were to test something going in the direction of your list lambert, I'd start with your MD and go: -2 Bridge, -4 Bolt and +3 Firebolt, +1 Jaya, +1 Revoker, +1 Top/Metamorph/2nd Revoker/Land.
Re: Fetchlands - I like them especially with Top, but I'm not in favor of completely maximizing shuffle effects with them. Firstly, life loss IS an issue with this deck. Second, Grindstone and Recruiter already give you ways to manipulate your deck with Top (as does Jet on its own if you play it). And finally, it's nice for your manabase to completely ignore hate like Stifle, and less frequently Aven Mindcensor, etc. I have also found that once I have Top, many times I want access to my mana without having to shuffle because the cards I want are already on top of the library. Sometimes this has resulted in a conflict with Fetchlands when I want to tap to draw with Top for a Blast, but the only red mana I have to play the Blast requires re-shuffling.
Good luck this weekend phoenix, and to anyone else playing this beast. Hopefully I'll be able to play tomorrow and we'll get another 24-30-person turnout like we've been getting recently in Houston.
At Ghent I had three or four Thorns in the side, and they weren't bad. Again I only played against decks that lose to Blood Moon and Red decks. Therefore, thorns weren't really in use but as it was my friend's loaner deck, he knew to have them in there.
As to the Welder argument, I think one of the deck's main strengths, if not the biggest one, is Blood Moon. With that in mind, playing to your Welders or something else is entirely up to the pilot it seems. I don't think the judge foils will make this deck a DTB, but at least it'll put it on people's radar and we'll be losing a little bit of the surprise factor that lends this deck many wins.
@Drew, I get it that fetchlands aren't exactly optimal all the time. I don't play them for the wee percentage of taking a land out of the deck to liven topdecks, they're literally there for library manipulation with Tops and because I don't have enough pimp mountains :[ I also don't think a fourth Top is necessary per se, while they're nice with Welder shenanigans they're horrible without [in multiples] and through my experience three is a comfortable number.
Thanks guys for your insights, all valid points and it helped. Good luck to those playing this weekend!
Since I've just finished my play set of recruiters I figured I'd post my current list.
4 Painter
4 Recruiter
4 SSG
2 Revoker
1 Jaya
1 Welder
1 Magus
1 Metamorph
3 Lightning Bolt
3 REB
4 Pyroblast
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's
1 Petal
4 Blood Moon
4 Tomb's
3 City's
4 Red Fetch
9 Mountain
SB
4 Bridge
3 Thorn
2 Surgical extraction
2 Koth
1 Macabre
1 Martyr of Ashes
1 T Crypt
1 REB
For my choices main board, I'm happy with my creature package for the recruiters. As much as I love Magma jets for deck manipulation 2 mana is just too slow for me personally. I do run pretty REB heavy, I just feel they become to powerful of a card with or without painter (blue is very heavy in my area).
For SB I really enjoy the Koth with Bridge, because as soon as you get that ultimate its hard to lose. Oops all spells decks are getting popular in my area so the cranial extractions are a must, and I just like the card in general. I love the idea for Martyr that was show in this thread, it takes my want for a pyroclasm and synergizes it perfectly with recruiters.
Well, that went.... Bad, to say the least... :(
I played 7 rounds swiss yesterday at Danish Legacy Masters and I failed in a lot of ways....
Round 1 was against Esperblade control, with 24 lands.... That's a little more, than I like :P Lost to basics eventually xD
Round 2... Again Esperblade, but a good friend of mine.. Game 1, I'm on the play, drop the Blood Moon, and it gets countered.. But hey, straight from the top, Blood Moon again on turn 2, leaving him frustrated :D Lost game 2, to a Engineered Explosives and game 3, same as game 1 :laugh: Seriously, ripping the 2nd Blood Moon as a topdeck.... PURE AWESOMENESS! :D
The following rounds I proceeded to meet Mono-R Sneak Attack among other things... Game 2, I had boarded the stones out for E-Bridges, but he was to fast for me... :(
Eventually I went 3-4.. Not the grand rehearsal for GP Strasbourg I'd hoped for, but hey: I'm still taking this to town in April ;)
On a sidenote: Cutting the 3rd Chrome Mox for a singleton Lotus Petal.... It helped a lot! Every time I drew Lotus Petal, it helped me, more than a Chrome Mox would have.. Not having to imprint a red card for that red mana was good :)
Wether it's a viable option in the long run? I'm not sure, but it saved me, last night :)
So I've got an idea I've been working on for Sneak-Show, and I'd like to share it with the rest of you because I think I'm really on to something. First of all, here's my list:
4 Painter's Servant
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Pyroblast
3 Magma Jet
2 Chrome Mox
5 Mountain
2 Great Furnace
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Sideboard:
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ensnaring Bridge
I've seen a lot of talk from people in this thread and the previous version about siding in 1x Tormod's Crypt, 1x Faerie Macabre or something like that. The plan proposed is to pretty much just go forward with this deck's plan A, pray to God to draw a Crypt in time (or that Macabre is enough), and thus this deck will still be able to win.
I've been going about the match-up in a completely different way. Here's my sideboard plan:
-4 Grindstone
-2 Painter's Servant
-3 Magma Jet
-1 Jaya Ballard
-1 Magus of the Moon
-1 Blood Moon
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Koth of the Hammer
+1 Phyrexian Revoker
+4 Thorn of Amethyst
+4 Ensnaring Bridge
I side out all my Grindstones and most of my Painters because that plan is just not good enough against decks that play Eldrazi. The plan instead is to just play a solid control game. The REBs are extremely powerful in this match-up, and I leave in a couple Painters so I'm able to counter Sneak Attack if necessary. A key part of this plan is Thorn of Amethyst -- It slows Sneak-Show down enough that this deck can get set up to play control properly. I tested today using this configuration and was extremely pleased by the result.
There's a non-trivial secondary benefit to this plan as well. In one of the matches I played today, my opponent brought in 3 or 4 Pithing Needles. He kept hands games two and three on the basis of being able to name Grindstone with his needles. People will be boarding in cards to nullify a plan that is no longer in our deck, and an opponent playing blank cards in games 2 and 3 is a very big deal.
I'm not saying that this makes the match-up super easy in games 2 and 3, but I believe it to be a better plan than the "Board in some Crypts or something and hope they make my combo work" plan. If there's one thing I want to stress more than anything else, it's this: This deck is not good when plan A is a 3-card combo.
Edit: Reading back over the thread more carefully, I'm apparently not the first one to come up with this strategy. I stand by everything I said though, and I'm sure I'm not the only person reading this thread who has missed that.
I suggest that Jaya and painters shouldn't be sided out. Remove all moon effects instead because they are less effective against sneakshow.
This way, you still have a way to win under the E.bridge lock even if they needle Koth.
Yes I have tried a plains but right now I would rather have the red source. Hitting the white isn't that important really.
In response to The Duressed post. Your idea is ok for sneak and show decks. But it fails miserably against hive mind, omnishow, or combo elves. It's for those reasons I feel like this strategy is not a good one across the board. Yes a three card combo is suboptimal but it can win. This strategy does not address those decks and folding to them seems like a bad idea right now. And thorn should only be brought in against storm and even then I am not sure it is worth doing.
Seth
@the Duressed - the SB plan I posted for Sneak and Show is pretty close to what you're doing, but I definitely agree with thebastard2 about Jaya. I think there are other things you could take out ahead of her, like Moons. Jaya is a win condition behind Bridge and with Painter can destroy shit like Emrakul or whatever.
I use a fairly similar plan against Omnitell, but I'll side out Revoker more readily than against Sneak and Show.
My Sneak and Show plan with the same MD is: +4 thorn, +4 Bridge, +2 Blast, +1 Crypt / -4 Moon, -3 Grindstone, -3 Jet, -1 Servant
So, I'm completely abandoning Moon because I actually want a bunch of mana under Thorn(s) and Moon isn't worth it against their deck. By doing that, I don't have to side out good stuff.
Against Omnitell I would probably do the same but with +1 Servant, -1 Revoker.
Yeah, I can definitely see taking out more moons to keep Jaya and the rest of the painters in the main. I'll make that adjustment.
sroncor1: I'm very surprised to hear you talk about Thorn the way you do. I know you're playing Enlightened Tutor in your deck, which makes the Tormod's Crypt plan a bit better, but it still doesn't look like you have very much to bring in against combo decks of any variety. The only thing I see in your sideboard which would be potentially helpful against those decks is your 4x Tormod's Crypt, 4x Rest in Peace. I've found Thorn to be a very helpful tool against many "unfair" decks because it either slows the opponent down enough for us to get in control (Show and Tell, Hive Mind, Omnishow) or completely destroys their plan (Storm Combo, etc). Have your Crypts and RIPs been enough for you to beat combo and decks with Eldrazi?
ps: I agree that my plan against the Elves deck with Eldrazi is not good, but I don't care. That's a match-up that i'm willing to not plan for because it's so rare.
Here is a general rule: If the deck you are facing against sometimes sideboards blood moons or runs around 10 basics (basically a high number, whatever), then 90% of the time you don't want to keep yours in. The only reason you might want to is if you have cards that are even worse for that matchup, it turns off a particular utility land of theirs, or you want to stop shuffle effects by fetchlands. Again, this is not the be-all and end-all rule.
If you are facing emrakul elves then they are almost always mono-green, and moons should be taken out for crypts and other control cards.
Later this week I will finally get around to posting matchup analysis in the 2nd post on the 1st page of this thread so everyone can reference it if they have questions.
Just wanted to stop over and say gratz on your MTGO Legacy Daily win tonight. It was a pleasure getting decked by you. ...but that is mostly because Painter's Servant make the beautiful enchantress deck look even cooler. :cool: Keep rollin'Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I updated the first page with short matchup descriptions for anyone who cares. If you would like to see something different or have any comments feel free to say so.
In other testing news I recently finished up 60 matches testing over the past few weeks with +1 Lotus Petal, +1 Fetch, -2 Chrome Mox and keeping Jaya main, revoker sideboard. I am definitely going to keep these changes going forward. Chrome mox is definitely better in some cases, LP and fetch felt better 75 percent of the time. I was lucky enough to get all the pieces of the deck on magic online when they were dirt cheap so I just roll dailies and two mans to test things out.
ANT 4-1
Miracles 2-1
12 Post 1-0
Stoneblade 3-0
Mud 1-2
Enchantress 1-0
TES 2-4
RUG 4-1
Reanimator 2-0
TinFins 2-2
Merfolk 1-0
High Tide 2-0
Burn 2-0
BUG 7-0
Stasis (lol what?) 1-0
Big Red Sneak 1-0
Lands 2-0
Elves 0-3
Sneak Show 1-0
Dredge 2-0
Zoo 1-0
UR/URW Delver 0-2
Death and Taxes 1-0
Goblins 1-0
Total 44-16
Clearly the biggest problems were Elves, TES, and TF. A few losses did involve mistakes that would have won the game and others did involve god draws like TF turn 1'ing me through my tormod's crypt but these results were certainly promising. Every match against Elves it felt like I was one turn away from taking control when they either glimpsed or natural ordered for lethal. Current elves lists a turn 1 blood moon on the play is basically game over, but it HAS to come down turn 1. So I am thinking of just completely siding them all out whenever on the draw. They will always fetch basic forest and they will always be able to fix their mana with deathrite/birchlore and cast decay or whatever they need.
Kap
Man I got you so good with Serenity. Mwuhahaha!
Yo! a big shout out to my fellow imperial friends, going to GP Strazz, this weekend...
I'd like to meet you down there for a chat on this amazing deck, and perhaps look at our decks, for a last minute tuning....
If you're interested in this round up, I'll be wearing an Indianapolis Colts jersey (Manning) and a red cap, the whole tourney through :)
Let's go have some fun this weekend :)
Good luck to you and anyone else there playing Painter. If you are running the list you posted a while ago I'll offer you some tuning advice: +1 Goblin Welder -1 any other card really. He is too good and will probably win you a game somewhere along the way. Also, if you can take notes or remember well enough I would like to read a tournament report if you are up for it. I sometimes find it helpful to read about someone else's thought processes with the deck and not just comment on a particular list or match results.Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix4
Anyways good luck to you. All you have to do is top 4 to improve upon Grymer's GP showing lol
Good luck to iPainters in Strasbourg!
Today, I tried Firebolt in place of Magma Jet at a 28-person tourney here in Houston and got top 4. I liked it a lot actually and was able to get several 2-for-1's during the day. My friend Simon suggested Forked Bolt for consideration too, which is worth testing.
As long as 3 damage is not demanded by the meta, I think iPainter can do better than Lightning Bolt in the burn slots. Magma Jet has been a favorite of mine because I love fixing my draws but the 1-cc of Firebolt and Forked Bolt is significant and I'll take the potential 2-for-1 efficiency over 3 damage for now.
For reference, here was the list I ran:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
3 Scalding Tarn
11 Mountain
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
4 Blood Moon
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Firebolt
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter’s Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Goblin Welder
SB
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Spellskite
This past Saturday I played in a 40 man tourney with this current list. Was mainly a trial for certain things, #1 playing the deck at all since it's my first one in quite some time and #2 getting used to my areas metagame.
1x Goblin Welder
4x Imperial Recruiter
1x Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
3x Magus of the Moon
4x Painter's Servant
2x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Simian Spirit Guide
1x Koth of the Hammer
4x Blood Moon
4x Ensnaring Bridge
4x Grindstone
1x Lotus Petal
2x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Pyroblast
3x Red Elemental Blast
4x Ancient Tomb
4x City of Traitors
10x Mountain
SB
1x Koth of the Hammer
1x Phyrexian Metamorph
1x Mindbreak Trap
1x Spellskite
4x Surgical Extraction
1x Red Elemental Blast
4x Thorn of Amethyst
1x Martyr of Ashes
1x Faerie Macabre
Was a 6 round with split to top 8, came 14th, if I had won my last round I would of made top 8, but with how I played I was happy with what I learned.
R1 vs GW Aggro 2/0 - Was a very randomly put together deck, guy even admitted to not know the format too well and just came for fun. G1 - Early Magus ruined his entire mana base G2 - Got a few beaters out early, but Moon+Bridge into Koth ultimate was an easy gg.
R2 vs Sneak&Show 1/1 - Ended up timing out in match 3 so was a draw. My brother and friends were telling me of the plays I had messed up and should have won the 3rd game, but I accepted my poor play, still trying to get back into the swing of things. G1 - Early sneak attack into Emrakul was gg G2 - Successfully bridge locked him into Jaya bombing him to death. G3 - I didn't use Jaya to her proper potential according to my spectators, so learned from it.
R3 vs Esper Stoneblade 0/2 - G1 - So much discard then Jace controlled me. G2 - Jitte raped my face.
R4 vs Couterbalance Helm 2/0 - G1 - Got some good REBs and Revoker shut down his top and Grindstone'd him out. G2 - Again Revoker shut down his top, his last ditch effort to enlighten tutor his helm while he had rest in peace hoping I'd miss to activate my grindstone but didn't, and he was out of gas.
R5 vs Punishing Jund 2/1 - G1 - My brother told me he was playing BUG, so I kept a hand with not much other than a Magus since moons destroy BUG, but it turned out to be Jund and he bolted leaving me with crap and lost easily. G2 - Jund can touch my Magus, but not my blood moon, mixed with bridge, I locked him out til Koth ultimate. G3 - Revoker shutting down his 2 Deathrites, then into a later blood moon and bridge, Koth'd him out again.
R6 vs UR Landstill 0/2 - With all the counters he through at my face both games, their wasn't much that I could do, bridge's saved me for a bit but still just couldn't play anything with getting it bolted or countered.
All in all, I was happy with what I learned about other play styles, the metagame, and what I did not like about my current adaptation of the deck. Any pointers would be gladly accepted.
Scored a pair of Eng Recruiters for 150euro/ea. at the GP last weekend. Unfortunately, no one I knew with the deck (or saw) made it to Day 2. Day one there was lots of Jund, RUG, and other three color decks, ripe pickings.
Hi guys,
Although I play the deck and follow this thread from the very beginning (3 years maybe), it is the first time I post here. Since I was day 2 in Starsbourg, you may be interested in a small report (I can't remember all details sorry). My list can be found on mtgtop8 :)
Day 1: 7-1 then unfortunatelly 7-2
R1 1-0: Bye with points
R2 2-0: Esperblade (2-0) - Early moon then control to combo. Keys were to handle jitte when on table, and destroy the only basic plain under moon.
R3 2-1: Elves (2-1) - Mull 4 was bad, althoug I could have killed turn 5, he killed me turn 4 and 3rd game was stared with 2 pyroclasms so I clean up a lot but we both had some land go turn but I drew only land unfortunatelly but no pyroblast to control a bit with painter.
R4 3-1: BUG (2-0)- Moon turn 1, concede. Game 2 had combo quite quickly
R5 4-1: Tezzeret BUW?! (2-0) - He did not like blood moon too...
R6 5-1: BUG (2-1) - Very good starting hands, something like sol land, moon, mountain, painter, pyro, bolt, grindstone 3 times. Hymn to tourach took me moon and grinstone so I think I lost that one.
R7 6-1: Enchantress (2-0) - Early painter control then combo
R8 7-1: HighTide (2-1) - Combo fast for the first one and early painter and blast lands for the 3rd game. Game 2 lost because I did not play Thorn because I feel he was in bad shape with 4 lands so I play to combo next turn and lost.
R9 7-2: Punishing Jund (1-2) - Very diffucult matchup. Discard is never cool and too many removal to control enough before combo.
Day 2: 8-2, 9-3, 10-4 and 10-6
R10 8-2: Bye! Was lucky no opponent
R11 8-3: Storm (1-2) - killed by tokens game 1. Thorn of amethyst slow him down to combo game 2. Game 3 was close, thorn again but no control at all unless a painter on table
R12 9-3: Sneak Show (2-0) - Happy to win game 1 because he drew badly and controlled him a bit with painter/reb. Easier after side game 2, ensnaring on show and tell, revoker on sneak and waited him with painter/reb x 3 while attacking with magus and painter. Won counter battle and game with the 3 reb against double fow.
R13 9-4: Storm (0-2) - Not a good hand game 1 against that (can't remember). Mulligan 6 game 2 forcing me to keep below average hand. Quick end
R14 10-4: BUG (2-0) - Do not like blood moon. 2 quick ends again for me that time
R16 10-5: MUD (1-2) - Turn 1 Chalice 1 against Turn 1 magus, I recruit and beat him up before he had enough mana, finishing him with bolt. Game 2 awful , turn 1 metalworker, turn 2 he played golem and hellkite!! I had played painter turn 1, grindstone turn 2 his attack turn 3 with hellkite blew my painter and won before I could kill him. Game 3: I keep a hand with painter/reb x2 and play turn 1 painter and willing to control. Unfortunatelly I made bad choice. He played dust bowl, then city, the grim monolith: I reb, then reb the the city thinking I would slow him down because I could not counter all its hand when he will have 4 or 6 land (in next turns). That was bad 2 turn later he played metalworker. I beat him down having on table 2 ssg, 1 magus, 1 painter, 1 recruiter, he was at 4 on turn 5 and show me artifacts for something like 17 manas with its lands, played grim, dynamo, hellkite, karn, destroyed the painter. Turn 6 I drew grindstone which would have won... awfull choice, regrets..
R17 10-6: Sneak show (2-0) - He play turn one show and tell, I ssg+reb but he had fow. Game two was close but I did not have a painter for my hand with rebs so he won and made top64 and itm.
I still feel the deck is good in the current metagame (30% games won with playing just with turn 1 moon is really nice), I'll probably test soon -2 pyro, +2 top or something like that.
A little history to underlines how the deck is 'stable' to me. I played that kind of version (8 pyro, 8 moons) since more than one year and I was always/almost top 8 most of events I did: 6-3 Bazar of Moxen 2011 (a friend of me made 7-2 with that deck), 7-2 Bazar of Moxen 2012, each year made final or won a trial for that event in my local store (25 peoples). Split the final in side event GP Quebec 2013. I missed top 8 to be 5-1 in Side event GP utrech 2013 against 2 kills turn 1 (tin fins) and finally day 2 inGP Starsbourg 2013. As I'm not a top player and still make a lot of mistakes I guess the deck is good. I'm sure a very good player would do better performances than me.
I'm back again to update with testing results and offer some more insights.
I've played another significant number of games swapping the 3x Lightning Bolt for 3x Firebolt. While I have had a few 2 for 1s and had some pitch Firebolt to my Faithless Looting or Grindstone myself into one moments, the sorcery speed has been a major turn off and actually cost me some games I could have won had it been a Lightning Bolt. Maybe it is just my particular build (lower landcount of 19 with no Chrome Mox and 2x Faithless Looting) but I find myself operating on less than 5 mana more often than not. I could certainly see how Seth's version or Drew's version could run it to much better effect but looting usually has me pitching the 5th or 6th lands into other spells I would rather play over flashbacking Firebolt. Another significant part of Lightning Bolt is that it makes Turn 2 moon on the play that much better. Mountain, go, and bolt their turn 1 play into a turn 2 Blood Moon is one of the best openings you can have, whether it is Deathrite, Heirarch, Delver, or something else.
I believe Drew is right that as long as 3 damage isn't required in the current metagame, there are removal spells that are better suited for Painter. However, as far as Instant Speed AND CMC=1, Lightning bolt is the best we have. If Forked Bolt or Firebolt were Instants, I wouldn't hesitate to switch to either. The only other removal spells that look halfway decent with those requirements are MAYBE Skred, Galvanic Blast, or Burst Lightning but even then, Bolt will usually just be better 9 times out of 10.
@Cedric
Nice Day 1 at Strasburg. Looking at your list I am not surprised that you got so many Turn 1 Blood Moon wins. The Full 8 Moon/8 Blast certainly helps your explosive early game but if your opponent stops that it doesn't look that pretty. I am sure that there were some stretches where you just bricked hard drawing land and mox and dead moons and that any form selection would have had a drastic effect. I fully support trying out 2 tops and would recommend even more selection/tutor cards in any combination of top, looting, enlightened tutor/magma jet based on your taste. These are really the key cards that enable Painter's late game resiliency and make it more versatile than Dragon Stompy
I know there were a few other Painter's there, anyone else here on the Source? I would still like to read your reports
Well.. I attended GP Strazz too, but not with the success, I'd hoped for. :(
Day 1, I started out loosing to Junk 2-1.. He's on the play - Verdant Catabombs, go! I play a Blood Moon, looks at him as to check, whether it hits the table, he nods, and I'm quick to say go, he didn't fetch??!!
He still ends up winning game 1.
After that I took 4 matches in a row, beating - what i feel - is some of the worst MU, we can have.. TinFins (Using blasts as LD, haha) and beating U/W Control :)
My back against the wall, I could afford to lose round 6, but with a loss in round 7, I dropped out. On day 2, I played the Legacy Championships, with another deck... Shouldn't have done that...
I went back to basics with the list, playing the list I wrote in the thread some time ago.. The Lotus Petal in MB... I can't believe how awesome it sometimes is :D I'm not shure, as to put one more in the main, though.
But here's the tricky part... 2 of the 3 matches, that I lost, I found it to be the lack of drawing gas-cards, instead of lands.. Now, I play 3 Sensei's, have tried another version with 4 Faithless Lootings instead of SDT, but Faithless for me, doesn't cut it alone... When you have no cards in hand, Looting is shit :(
Which cards do we have in red, that provides us with card draw, without necesseraly (Spellcheck?) giving our opponent cards as well - Reforge the Soul?
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...aily/deck/1213
Here's an interesting list. It's not exactly related, but I figured I had to post it here once I realized that Imperial Recruiter could be used to search for Hanweir Watchkeep and Instigator Gang.
You should post that in dragon stompy as a recruiter variant of the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malchar
Not bad GP performances Cedric and Phoenix.
Cedric, your list seems pretty all-in on the core iPainter plans. Nice and pure.
I tend to share Phoenix’s concern about running out of gas and agree that Tops should probably be in there.
Phoenix, the only card I’ve tried for straight-forward draw is Dangerous Wager. Otherwise there is always:Quote:
Which cards do we have in red, that provides us with card draw, without necesseraly (Spellcheck?) giving our opponent cards as well - Reforge the Soul?
- Tops + Welder
- Metamorph for additional copies of Recruiter (and chain Recruiters during the game to get card advantage)
Kap’n, your point is legit. I love Magma Jet but I am starting to want 1cc burn more. The turn 1 instant speed answer on the play is definitely significant, although I would only consider it critically necessary against Shaman, Hierarch (because they enable removal of the 2nd turn Moon) and maybe Goblin Lackey (just because you can’t let him hit you even once). Against Delver or other damage dealers, sorcery speed would bother me less because I can deal with them after the Moon. In your build, it does seem like Lightning Bolt is a no brainer. I’m going to pay closer attention to the instances where Firebolt’s sorcery speed costs me a lock as compared to the instances where I get a 2-1. It’s possible that I should be playing Lightning Bolt instead of Firebolt too, although I have been able to get 5 mana fairly easily with my list. 5 is about the reasonable cutoff point though, because I tested Mizzium Mortars a bit and 6 mana didn't come consistently, especially with 3 red.Quote:
However, as far as Instant Speed AND CMC=1, Lightning bolt is the best we have. If Forked Bolt or Firebolt were Instants, I wouldn't hesitate to switch to either. The only other removal spells that look halfway decent with those requirements are MAYBE Skred, Galvanic Blast, or Burst Lightning but even then, Bolt will usually just be better 9 times out of 10.
@Moomba, has Martyr of Ashes worked for you?
Personally the Martyr was useless in my last tournament. Their wasn't enough aggro decks to make it worth while. I still think it's an alright card (tutorable pyroclasm is nice) but just didn't fit what I needed. Also with my list I've main decked the bridges so that's why their is no burn. I personally have changed up my list a bit both main and side.
I've added the metamorph and spellskite main deck as to replace the 2 magus. Just seeing them die to burn too easily just makes them so inferior to blood moons. For the side board I've put in manic vandal (jitte can suck it) and trying out some defense grids as getting counter to death was very annoying.
I started testing again against my friend's TES deck. I've been using this list, and it's really quite good. It has alleviated a lot of my fears about playing against a storm opponent. I like the idea of 5 moons, 5 blasts, 5 "free mana" spells. Also, the TES deck doesn't use any basics, so it is hurt a little more than normal by the moons. For sideboarding, I take out the welder, metamorph, jaya, and 3 burn spells to bring in the 2 ratchet bombs and 4 thorns. In my older lists, I would bring in as many as 8 or 10 cards against storm, but I like only having to bring in 6 as it is a more sensible number which doesn't compromise the integrity of the painter combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewliusMaximus
The only change I made to the list was to swap firebolt for magma jet, although I think that this list can definitely support the high flashback cost of the firebolt.
The 4 sensei's divining tops work great against storm. With 4 copies, you have a high chance of drawing it and getting to see those extra 3 cards early while they could still be relevant.
The revokers in the main are also great. I think that they should become a staple of any stompy-shell deck. They are rarely a dead card, and they act as a much-needed dual purpose offense/defense card.
Maybe this is wrong but I'd board out the Moon effects, or at least leave Magus in because he can beat down (ish). My reasoning for this is that the combo isn't faster than TES, and Moon effects don't necessarily shut them down and are way more often dead draws than before. They still need Red mana and can get black and blue from Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox. I think it's best to load up on Blasts and Thorns and play the control in the matchup, getting an early Painter in to turn your blasts on and put Revokers on LED. If they combo out turn one or two that's how the deck is designed. And from playing TES myself, and through my own testing, that's generally how the match plays out. Either TES does what it does and goes off, or iPainter buys itself enough time to win via Moon/Blast effects, or silver bullets like Revoker. I'd put it in TES' favor generally speaking.
Then again I can be completely wrong in my assessment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I definitely agree, although blood moon has been pretty effective in my testing. It might be too optimistic, but if you resolve a moon and a revoker on lotus petal, it's almost impossible for them to win in a timely fashion. It also encourages them to go off with empty the warrens which turns on our ratchet bombs as another out. Note that without a moon effect, I agree that revoker should definitely hit lion's eye diamond as you say. The ideal sideboarding plan probably varies greatly depending on the specifics of their list such as whether or not they have basics or the specific contents of their burning wish sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
I should probably side out 2 more things so I can bring in those other blasts from the sideboard though. Would it be better to keep the moons on the outside chance that they are effective, or side out a lotus petal, simian spirit guide, or perhaps sensei's divining top?
Malchar, Jet is still my default choice for burn but I'm testing Firebolt to see if it will make enough of a difference against stuff like Goblins and Elves.Quote:
The only change I made to the list was to swap firebolt for magma jet, although I think that this list can definitely support the high flashback cost of the firebolt.
Against Storm, I automatically take out the burn and Metamorph for Thorns. After that, the SB decisions get a bit more difficult. I have typically replaced a single Moon with an extra Blast, but finding room for Ratchet Bomb isn't a bad idea.
Personally, I don't usually like siding out Top because I believe the above statement is right on. Top in this deck can be a turn 1 Ponder (kind of) and then sustain your draws the rest of the game. Still, Storm would be the matchup where I would consider it, especially on the draw.Quote:
The 4 sensei's divining tops work great against storm. With 4 copies, you have a high chance of drawing it and getting to see those extra 3 cards early while they could still be relevant.
I really don't like firebolt, I donnot think it can work well against elves or goblins, for the former I wish I have instand speed burn to kill their turn one elve especially on the play, for the latter, it may cost too much to flashback because they run wasteland and port, and goblins always have haste, sometime I really need lightning bolt to survive from a lethal strike.
now I run 3 bolt and one jet, I am still not sure if I should totally cut the jet like before.
I still donnot like cut the moon effect to 5 or 4, sometimes for example against jund I really need my magus to trade burn for my painter, it is descent and sometimes necessary.
And now I prepare 3 revokers, two in main, one in sb for sneakshow, I really hate that deck.
I would just try with 2 in the main :) You essentially have 6 revokers plus cards in the SB :)Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ