GB Vengevine [Hogaak Placeholder Thread]

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Originally Posted by tescrin

NOTE: I understand this may require a second thread, but I want to post musings here to point out some interesting synergies that are being missed by being straight BG

I think it may be more interested to use BUG; mostly because:
* Shardless agent allows you to guarantee Vengevine recursion (or nearly guarantee, depending on build;) If building around this synergy it may be hyper-reliable in the mid-game. It's noteworthy that the Buried Alive and Vengevine can't be hit by shardless, which seems like a plus.

* Cavern Harpy (and if there are any other cards like it) can cast by themselves multiple times. Some of the supporting cards for Harpy in Aluren also allow you to bounce dudes back. This self-bounce seems like a natural way to get a 2-4 mana trigger for Vine

* Combining with the (now deprecated?) BUG Aluren deck may allow a two-sided win con. Insta-gib via fast aluren combo, or secondary win con of Mid-range aggro.


I know this isn't quite related to what you're doing; but the synergies of Shardless and Cavern Harpy seem too neat not to point out. It also addresses most issues brought up about bad MUs: Aluren combo can go off T3 easily if not interacted with; meaning you can race combo and out-value Miracles/Fair decks. This also opens up running FoW, which obviously helps slow opposing combo; making those bad MUs have that much more potential.

If I come up with a list that seems reasonable maybe I'll start a thread and then cross reference it here for anyone interested.

EDIT: It could also be considered as a sideboard plan to swap between a graveyard combo vs aluren combo

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Shardless Agent seems pretty good at playing the value plan, although the only matchup where you would need more value would be Miracles... the recursion engines in this deck would make Grixis Control a good matchup already without needing Shardless Agent.

Cavern Harpy is cool, but way too slow. Paying UUBB to recur Vengevines doesn't really make any sense. The point is to cast 0 mana Basking Rootwalla's and Hollow One's to trigger them, or two 1cc creatures at worst.

I see where you are trying to go with this, by essentially trying to hybridize it with BUG Aluren, but they are two very different decks. This deck can goldfish on turn 2 already, so it doesn't need to add Aluren for a combo kill... the deck is already an aggro/combo deck.

Maybe transforming into Aluren postboard would be a good idea instead of trying to fight against graveyard hate, but I'm not sure there's enough space in the sideboard to do that.

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Originally Posted by ReAnimator

if the plan is all in on game ones, but still being functional after board unlike dredge, i wonder if exploring [card]Tolarian Winds[/cards] might be a different deck/strategy. You'd probably have to go with street wraiths and maybe even memnites to support vengevines, but it would really turn on hollow ones. My fear with going with an all in strategy is at what point is it just a worse all in deck than Oops or belcher or dredge, but the board and playing fair doesn't really get those post board games back because you have too many essential pieces. Not sure.

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The all-in plan isn't really comparable to something like Oops or Belcher, though. Getting a turn 1 Putrid Imp countered doesn't fizzle the deck like Force of Will does to Belcher. Once a discard outlet resolves, the only thing fizzling the deck is graveyard hate or Terminus. Even if the opponent keeps discard outlets from resolving, the deck can still cast most of its creatures and play a generic beatdown game. The deck could even run Cavern of Souls if the meta was that heavy on countermagic.

This deck is more like a graveyard-based affinity deck than something like Belcher or Oops. This deck isn't a glass cannon. Dredge is the all-in version, which is more broken in game one, but folds harder to graveyard hate postboard.

This deck is all-in on aggro, but it can certainly survive against graveyard hate postboard. Surgical Extraction is the most commonly played hate, which isn't even that powerful against us. If our turn 1 involves playing a Tireless Tribe, discarding a Vengevine, a Prized Amalgam, a Bloodghast, and putting a Hollow One into play... Surgical on Vengevine is only a speed bump. We still have a Tireless Tribe and Hollow One in play, and next turn we get a Bloodghast and Prized Amalgam... and that's not counting whatever we can do with two mana. All I'm trying to say is, this deck doesn't fold to Surgical, and can certainly have answers to deal with other forms of hate if needed.

Hardcasting Bloodghast's, Amalgam's, and Vengevine's isn't the greatest thing to be doing, but there will certainly be games where this plan will still get the job done. Plus the deck has two solid non-graveyard dependent threats with Lotleth Troll and Hollow One.

I'm not saying that this deck is the next big thing, tier 1, blah blah blah, I'm simply saying that I think this deck has legs. It does some things worse than other similar options, but it also does some things better. If nothing else, this seems like an absolutely fun concept to brew with.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I'm not saying that this deck is the next big thing, tier 1, blah blah blah, I'm simply saying that I think this deck has legs. It does some things worse than other similar options, but it also does some things better. If nothing else, this seems like an absolutely fun concept to brew with.

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+1

I completely agree. The allure of cool cards...

I really like Tireless Tribe for speeding up the explosive Hollow One starts.

With the 8 1cc discard outlets instead of the Buried Alive plan (less consistent), I agree mana dorks aren't needed. That was a remnant from my old build that was closer to a fair deck (without the explosiveness of Hollow One). Maybe Elvish Spirit Guide or Chancellor of the Tangle, otherwise nothing.

I'm starting testing with this:


//Creatures: 33
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Basking Rootwalla
2 Gravecrawler
3 Lotleth Troll
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One

//Spells: 9
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay

//Lands: 18
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Undiscovered Paradise

//Sideboard: 15
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Big Game Hunter
3 Carrion Feeder
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse


-11 discard outlets, 8 active on turn 1 (+Therapies on yourself)
-18 creatures that want to be discarded
-11 fat threats
-20 free critters


Sideboard is a work in progress.

Faerie Macabre - grave hate that also enables Hollow One, pitches to Troll, and can be hardcast

Big Game Hunter - madness creature that kills Emrakul / Griselbrand / etc off Show and Tell or instant-speed discard outlet

Carrion Feeder - vs white decks. Protects your team from Terminus and StP, hoses Jitte counters and Batterskull lifegain, alternate threat that profits when other things die and combos with the weaker recursive dorks to grow

Silent Gravestone - Protect you from Surgical. This build is now too invested in the grave plan to SB into a fair deck, so protection is a thing.


I put Gravecrawlers to have more fodder and more 1ccs to trigger Vengevine, but the zombie count is low and another 2/1 that can't block is pretty bad. It maybe just be better to have something else in that slot like:
- 1cc utility: Carrion Feeder / Slitherhead / Mother of Runes / Sylvan Safekeeper / Fume Spitter / Veteran Explorer
- Card advantage: Asylum Visitor / Stinkweed Imp / Squee, Goblin Nabob / Sylvan Library / Land Tax (lol discard fodder but slow)
- Mana accel: Chancellor of the Tangle (adds mana, then can be discarded for value)
- Protection: Chancellor of the Annex (protects you, then can be discarded for value)
- Spells: Swords to Plowshares, Lotus Petal

I really want to play this deck just to troll people with Big Game Hunter.

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Originally Posted by FTW

I really like Tireless Tribe for speeding up the explosive Hollow One starts.

With the 8 1cc discard outlets instead of the Buried Alive plan (less consistent), I agree mana dorks aren't needed. That was a remnant from my old build that was closer to a fair deck (without the explosiveness of Hollow One). Maybe Elvish Spirit Guide or Chancellor of the Tangle, otherwise nothing.

I'm starting testing with this:


//Creatures: 33
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Basking Rootwalla
2 Gravecrawler
3 Lotleth Troll
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One

//Spells: 9
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay

//Lands: 18
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

//Sideboard: 15
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Silent Gravestone
3 Big Game Hunter
3 Carrion Feeder
1 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse


-11 discard outlets, 8 active on turn 1 (+Therapies on yourself)
-18 creatures that want to be discarded
-11 fat threats
-20 free critters


Sideboard is a work in progress.

Faerie Macabre - grave hate that also enables Hollow One, pitches to Troll, and can be hardcast

Big Game Hunter - madness creature that kills Emrakul / Griselbrand / etc off Show and Tell or instant-speed discard outlet

Carrion Feeder - vs white decks. Protects your team from Terminus and StP, hoses Jitte counters and Batterskull lifegain, alternate threat that profits when other things die and combos with the weaker recursive dorks to grow

Silent Gravestone - Protect you from Surgical. This build is now too invested in the grave plan to SB into a fair deck, so protection is a thing.


I put Gravecrawlers to have more fodder and more 1ccs to trigger Vengevine, but the zombie count is low and another 2/1 that can't block is pretty bad. It maybe just be better to have something else in that slot like:
- 1cc utility: Carrion Feeder / Slitherhead / Mother of Runes / Sylvan Safekeeper / Fume Spitter / Veteran Explorer
- Card advantage: Asylum Visitor / Stinkweed Imp / Squee, Goblin Nabob / Sylvan Library / Land Tax (lol discard fodder but slow)
- Mana accel: Chancellor of the Tangle (adds mana, then can be discarded for value)
- Protection: Chancellor of the Annex (protects you, then can be discarded for value)
- Spells: Swords to Plowshares, Lotus Petal

I really want to play this deck just to troll people with Big Game Hunter.

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I think if you end up playing with either of the Chancellors than some sort of Reanimate variant could be very good. Discarding for value is ok, but I think will water the deck down. Even something like Dread Return or Exhume could be very good if that's the route you take.

After looking at the mana costs of my 4c list, I retweaked the manabase a bit.

Lands (16)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
2 Undiscovered Paradise

That changes to color source balance to 15 black, 13 green, 12 white, 11 blue.

Of course, the actual color sources go up once Lotus Petal is factored in, too.

I definitely think the 2nd Undiscovered Paradise is where I want to be at in the 4c list. It not only improves the manabase by providing mana of any color, it also makes Bloodghast significantly better. I don't think I want more than 2 though; they are pretty bad in multiples.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I'm not saying that this deck is the next big thing, tier 1, blah blah blah, I'm simply saying that I think this deck has legs. It does some things worse than other similar options, but it also does some things better. If nothing else, this seems like an absolutely fun concept to brew with.

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Agreed all around. Yeah totally fun space to brew in, like the OP says i've had versions of something like this off and on for almost a decade now :)

The real "problem" is there are just soooo many directions to go in, and infinite cards to test.


Also with your 4 colour list it might be worth exploring a 5 colour mana base. The damage it inflicts on you will probably be irrelevant in most matches and it would prevent a lot of bottle necks in the face of wasteland. The downside is the amount of triggers you get for bloodghast, but it might be worth considering.

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Originally Posted by ReAnimator

Agreed all around. Yeah totally fun space to brew in, like the OP says i've had versions of something like this off and on for almost a decade now :)

The real "problem" is there are just soooo many directions to go in, and infinite cards to test.


Also with your 4 colour list it might be worth exploring a 5 colour mana base. The damage it inflicts on you will probably be irrelevant in most matches and it would prevent a lot of bottle necks in the face of wasteland. The downside is the amount of triggers you get for bloodghast, but it might be worth considering.

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I'm not sure it's necessary to do that, though. The thing with the 4c list is that I'm rarely interested in hardcasting Prized Amalgam's, so the blue splash is as tiny as it gets, and the white splash is literally for 4 cards. I'm rarely hardcasting Rootwalla's, and pumping them is of minor relevance... Vengevine's are almost never getting hardcasted, and so the green splash is mainly just for 4 cards too.

Between Undiscovered Paradise and Lotus Petal providing mana of any color already, it seems fine sticking to the fetch/dual configuration. If I were to experience mana issues in testing, I would reconsider, but I don't believe that will be the case.

With that said, if I decided to try out Faithless Looting or Flamewake Phoenix, I would certainly do a rainbow manabase.

I downloaded modo and realized all the cards I need for this are extremely cheap except the fetches. Work in progress definitely, but I'm thinking something like this. Was tempted to try and find room for reanimate but don't want to be too committed to the gy. Would rather be able to side out buried/venge for natural order or something.


3 assault formation
3 glimpse of nature
4 cabal therapy
4 buried alive

4 tireless tribe
4 ornithopter
4 phyrexian walker
4 vengevine
1 gaddock teeg
1 lotleth troll
1 doran, the explorer
1 eternal witness
1 greenbelt rampager
1 sylvan safekeeper
2 green sun's zenith

4 dark ritual
2 culling the weak
4 bayou
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
2 scrubland
2 swamp
2 gaea's cradle
1 forest
1 dryad arbor

SB:
4 natural order or pattern of rebirth
2 protean hulk
2 dark confidant
1 assault formation
3 thoughtseize
3 abrupt decay

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Originally Posted by kinda

I downloaded modo and realized all the cards I need for this are extremely cheap except the fetches. Work in progress definitely, but I'm thinking something like this. Was tempted to try and find room for reanimate but don't want to be too committed to the gy. Would rather be able to side out buried/venge for natural order or something.


3 assault formation
3 glimpse of nature
4 cabal therapy
4 buried alive

4 tireless tribe
4 ornithopter
4 phyrexian walker
4 vengevine
2 dark confidant
1 gaddock teeg
1 lotleth troll
1 doran, the explorer
3 green sun's zenith

4 dark ritual
2 culling the weak
4 bayou
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
2 scrubland
2 swamp
2 gaea's cradle
1 forest
1 dryad arbor

SB:
4 natural order
2 protean hulk
1 fauna shaman
1 sylvan safekeeper
1 assault formation
3 thoughtseize
3 abrupt decay

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I don't really understand what this list is trying to do?

You don't have enough cheap/free creatures to cast to make effective use of Glimpse, there's a bunch of rituals + Cradle but the only cards worth accelerating into are Buried Alive and GSZ, there's space dedicated to making walls/high toughness creatures good but the only good one have for that is Phyrexian Walker... the list is all over the place.

I'm not trying to be rude, but... was this a troll attempt? If not, I apologize, but my criticisms of your list still stands; it's a pile of jank.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I don't really understand what this list is trying to do?

You don't have enough cheap/free creatures to cast to make effective use of Glimpse, there's a bunch of rituals + Cradle but the only cards worth accelerating into are Buried Alive and GSZ, there's space dedicated to making walls/high toughness creatures good but the only good one have for that is Phyrexian Walker... the list is all over the place.

I'm not trying to be rude, but... was this a troll attempt? If not, I apologize, but my criticisms of your list still stands; it's a pile of jank.

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It definitely might be the wrong direction but think you're missing a couple interesting interactions:

tireless tribe/ornithopter/phyrexian walker work with doran and assault formation
dark ritual/culling plus buried plus 2 0 drops gets you vengevines turn 1 and one drops open up turn two scenarios. greenbelt rampager was suggested which is tempting
Drawing 2 or three cards with glimpse is the goal, still think that merits inclusion but haven't tested glimpse as they are expensive in paper
The natural orders in the board probably need to be patterns unless I change the creature base, the dark rits/cradles help to ramp here. Protean hulk plus 0 drops and doran/sylvan safekeeper/teeg is strong

I'll test, and see how it goes. The list is admittedly things I would like to do more than objectively good choices.

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Originally Posted by kinda

It definitely might be the wrong direction but think you're missing a couple interesting interactions:

tireless tribe/ornithopter/phyrexian walker work with doran and assault formation
dark ritual/culling plus buried plus 2 0 drops gets you vengevines turn 1 and one drops open up turn two scenarios. greenbelt rampager was suggested which is tempting
Drawing 2 or three cards with glimpse is the goal, still think that merits inclusion but haven't tested glimpse as they are expensive in paper
The natural orders in the board probably need to be patterns unless I change the creature base, the dark rits/cradles help to ramp here. Protean hulk plus 0 drops and doran/sylvan safekeeper/teeg is strong

I'll test, and see how it goes. The list is admittedly things I would like to do more than objectively good choices.

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I hadn't considered Tireless Tribe with Assault Formation, so that's my mistake, but making Ornithopter a 2/2 is super low impact.

I'm not saying the deck doesn't have some lines that can go broken, but the deck lacks coherencey and consistency. There are way too many separate game plans and mini combos going on; there's going to be a ton of akward hands where nothing lines up.

I don't mean to stifle innovation or persuade you against brewing by any means, I just wasn't sure if you were serious or not.

I think you're right that it is too inconsistent, might go with a prison version. The abyss is $2 online. Not sure if I want chalice or dark ritual.


4 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Buried Alive
4 Vengevine
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Spellskite
2 vault skirge
3 Assault Formation
3 The Abyss
4 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Gaea's Cradle
4 Ancient Tomb

Pimp already becomes a 2/2 flyer once threshold is achieved, which I think will happen fairly often (especially with 8+ fetches, Lotus Petals, and just generally filling the graveyard with dudes.) It is conditional on the graveyard, but it already has super synergy with the deck. Ornithopter offers nothing beyond a free creature. The other comparison is Rootwalla, which for a common is nothing short of busted with Pimp/Troll/Vengevine.

It's got a ton of really cool interactions; I think Glimpse is actually worse than Beck // Call. It costs another mana but it triggers when Vengevines enter the battlefield.

@kinda

I think you really need to make your own thread. Your lists don't really make any sense and have no real relevance to the topic at hand other than having a tiny bit of over lap card wise.

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Originally Posted by ReAnimator

@kinda

I think you really need to make your own thread. Your lists don't really make any sense and have no real relevance to the topic at hand other than having a tiny bit of over lap card wise.

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Vengevine has 1 legacy result in 2018 on mtgtop8 and 0 in 2019. Maybe it's possible the best shell for the card is not trying to create an updated version of UG madness? I think the phoenix deck has shown that buried alive is decently strong. After that though with vengevine, unlike phoenix where cantrips are clearly strong, there really aren't any restrictions beyond needing creatures in the deck.

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Originally Posted by kinda

Vengevine has 1 legacy result in 2018 on mtgtop8 and 0 in 2019. Maybe it's possible the best shell for the card is not trying to create an updated version of UG madness? I think the phoenix deck has shown that buried alive is decently strong. After that though with vengevine, unlike phoenix where cantrips are clearly strong, there really aren't any restrictions beyond needing creatures in the deck.

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Pheonix being a better Buried Alive deck doesn't make Vengevine inherently or strictly worse. It does mean that making Vengevine viable will likely require a different approach, however.

The power here lies in the decks ability to drop it's entire hand on the board within the first few turns, and is extremely threat dense to offer resiliency with the backup plan.

Pheonix is a fun brew, for sure, but it comes with its own set of strengths and weaknesses.

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Originally Posted by kinda

Vengevine has 1 legacy result in 2018 on mtgtop8 and 0 in 2019. Maybe it's possible the best shell for the card is not trying to create an updated version of UG madness? I think the phoenix deck has shown that buried alive is decently strong. After that though with vengevine, unlike phoenix where cantrips are clearly strong, there really aren't any restrictions beyond needing creatures in the deck.

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Buried Alive is good in the Phoenix deck because it not only tutors for the creatures but is part of the combo. Dark Ritual + Buried Alive is 2/3 of the requirement for Phoenix to come back. It isn't a t1 deck, but that's ok, it can Thoughtseize or t1 Delver (not sure what it plays currently) and t2 play 2nd land, Dark Ritual, Buried Alive, Ponder = 9 attack power t2. Very likely lethal by turn 3.

The card that makes Vengevine potentially playable in 2019 is Hollow One. Without Hollow one, and to a smaller extent Collective Brutality, this deck wouldn't even interest me.

Also wanted to mention that I made a few more tweaks to my 4c list.

I've dropped down to 14 lands, cutting down to 6 fetches, 1 Bayou, and 0 Underground Sea, with 4 Undiscovered Paradise.

Long story short is that this deck doesn't need very much mana to work, outside of wanting land drops to trigger Bloodghast's. Sometimes, all the deck needs is a single mana to go off. Consider a hand of Undiscovered Paradise, Tireless Tribe, Vengevine, Prized Amalgam x2, Bloodghast, Hollow One. That's an opener that basically dumps its entire hand onto the board turn 1 (well, Bloodghast won't hit the board until turn 2, but yeah). A hand like that is not uncommon.

This deck wants land drops for Bloodghast, but definitely does not want to flood on mana sources. Two mana is pretty much the top of the curve, for either Lotleth Troll, or casting two 1cc creatures in a turn to enable Vengevine recursion.

Going up to 4 Undiscovered Paradise is a huge improvement for triggering and retriggering Bloodghast, especially with the lower land count.

With the two available spaces, I can fit the 2 Carrion Feeder's back into my list. These guys feel very important to the engine, IMO. Not only do they improve Swords to Plowshares matchups, they're also pretty important for helping to recur Vengevine's and Prized Amalgam's in the midgame by sac'ing Gravecrawler's, or even Bloodghast's (this only works for Prized Amalgam, obviously). Upping my 1cc creature count, zombie count, and adding another backup threat are all pretty solid points, too.

Here's my current list:

B/G/w/u Fiendish Nature

Lands (14)
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Creatures (38)
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Lotleth Troll
2 Carrion Feeder
4 Gravecrawler
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One

Spells (8)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lotus Petal


EDIT: I'm not 100% sold on the Savannah... I might decide to turn that into a Bayou or Underground Sea.

I also haven't decided how to construct the sideboard yet, which could also influence the construction of the manabase.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kinda

Vengevine has 1 legacy result in 2018 on mtgtop8 and 0 in 2019. Maybe it's possible the best shell for the card is not trying to create an updated version of UG madness? I think the phoenix deck has shown that buried alive is decently strong. After that though with vengevine, unlike phoenix where cantrips are clearly strong, there really aren't any restrictions beyond needing creatures in the deck.

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Sure there is no accepted agreed upon list or anything and this is new.

HOWEVER spamming a list with Sword of Fire and Ice, Chalice, The Abyss, and Assault formation, WITH NO EXPLANATION, is not only rude but it's completely nonsensical. Like it is the very definition of off topic unrelated spam and i don't think any mod would have a problem deleting it and giving a warning.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Buried Alive is good in the Phoenix deck because it not only tutors for the creatures but is part of the combo. Dark Ritual + Buried Alive is 2/3 of the requirement for Phoenix to come back. It isn't a t1 deck, but that's ok, it can Thoughtseize or t1 Delver (not sure what it plays currently) and t2 play 2nd land, Dark Ritual, Buried Alive, Ponder = 9 attack power t2. Very likely lethal by turn 3.

The card that makes Vengevine potentially playable in 2019 is Hollow One. Without Hollow one, and to a smaller extent Collective Brutality, this deck wouldn't even interest me.

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I agree. Hollow One is absolutely the reason why Vengevine may finally be Legacy viable again, and is certainly what drew my interest in. I mean, sure, the deck could have ran Memnite instead as additional free creatures alongside Basking Rootwalla, but there's a massive difference between 0 mana 1/1's and 0 mana 4/4's.

Prized Amalgam is also a pretty cool addition. They're not as good as actual Vengevines, but they increase the body count of creatures that you can dump in the yard and get back for free. It only takes one other recursive creature to bring them back, and 3/3 is still a solid size.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Here's my current list:

B/G/w/u Fiendish Nature

Lands (14)
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
4 Undiscovered Paradise

Creatures (38)
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
4 Lotleth Troll
2 Carrion Feeder
4 Gravecrawler
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Bloodghast
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Vengevine
4 Hollow One

Spells (8)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lotus Petal


EDIT: I'm not 100% sold on the Savannah... I might decide to turn that into a Bayou or Underground Sea.

I also haven't decided how to construct the sideboard yet, which could also influence the construction of the manabase.

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I like the direction you're going. By cutting down on mana sources you can cram in all the relevant creatures and be more explosive on turn 1s. I thought multiple Undiscovered Paradise would be too many and too awkward with lands bouncing back to hand, but they also fix your mana on turn 1 very well.

Maybe +1 Carrion Feeder -1 Gravecrawler. Feeder is really good in a lot of cases even without Gravecrawler. It combos with Bloodghast/Amalgam recursion too, grows off stuff dying, and saves you from Terminus/StP. OTOH Gravecrawler is the slowest and least threatening of the creatures you want to pitch.

For the sideboard, seriously consider a couple copies of Big Game Hunter. I'm not just trolling. With one of your 12 discard outlets on board, this card is a 1 mana instant that kills Emrakul, Griselbrand, Gurmag Angler, Tombstalker, Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf, Sire of Insanity, Tidespout Tyrant, Iona, Elesh Norn, Chancellor of the Annex... It's your best card to bring it against SneakShow, Reanimator, and Eldrazi. It also kills any midrange guy that could profitably block Vengevine and Hollow One.

Some number of Faerie Macabre is probably good: BR Reanimator, Phoenix decks, Loam, even for Grixis Control and Storm.

You need some outs to Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage. Maybe Nature's Claim or Fragmentize. They also deal with stuff like Pithing Needle, Relic, Crypt, Ensnaring Bridge...

Surgical and Faerie Macabre don't necessarily hurt you that much since you have so many different threats. You could bring in some Silent Gravestone, but you might be better off just having another creature in the opener instead and trying to brute force your way through it. Needs testing.

You need outs to turn 1 Chalice of the Void on the play. Really badly. Abrupt Decay is tough on so few mana sources, but you don't have many other options.

Turn 1 Blood Moon on the play wrecks you, but I think you're better off praying to dodge Red Stompy than trying to board against them. Chalice / Moon / Trinisphere + sideboard hate is just death.

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Originally Posted by FTW

You need outs to turn 1 Chalice of the Void on the play. Really badly. Abrupt Decay is tough on so few mana sources, but you don't have many other options.

Turn 1 Blood Moon on the play wrecks you, but I think you're better off praying to dodge Red Stompy than trying to board against them. Chalice / Moon / Trinisphere + sideboard hate is just death.

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With such an all-in strategy it could be completely correct to just sideboard a couple extra lands, just taking out a couple of redundant/lower power level cards (Bloodghast seems like the obvious choice.) Sideboarding with such a linear strategy will always be a chore but giving yourself a few extra percentage points by stabilizing mana seems like a reasonable way to spend 2 sideboard slots. I think the correct answers to Blood Moon or Chalice are obviously Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation. Wear // Tear is also decent. Blood Moon is the bigger issue than Chalice I think. I see the uphill battle, so praying to avoid Red Stompy and therefore conceding the low win percentage (on the draw) is understandable as well. Winning the die roll is pretty important, practice them dice!

I'm glad you're doing this Hanni because it will set a boundary for how fast/explosive/glass cannon the deck can be. That sets a benchmark for how to tweak in the other direction for stability (Faithless Looting and/or maindeck removal.)

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I think the correct answers to Blood Moon or Chalice are obviously Ancient Grudge and Ray of Revelation. Blood Moon is the bigger issue than Chalice I think.

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Both are very dangerous on the play, before you've cast a discard outlet.

How do you pay the mana cost for Ray of Revelation with Blood Moon out in the aggressive list? Notice the manabase of 1 basic (Swamp). Even if you board in more lands, they're probably not basic Plains. With Blood Moon on the play, you won't even have a discard outlet yet, so you need 1W for Ray: Lotus Petal + land (Mountain) + Ray or you scoop. Even when you go first and stick a discard outlet, generating either 1W or G through Moon needs a spare Petal.

Chalice stops you from sticking a discard outlet. It also counters Cabal Therapy, Basking Rootwalla, Carrion Feeder, Gravecrawler and most of the cheap SB answers you'd want to run. You're stuck relying on Lotleth Troll or hardcasting the slow guys in a land-light deck. Chalice is easier to kill (e.g. Ancient Grudge), but it still Time Walks you at least 2 turns until you can get the mana to kill it, then you can stick a PImp the next turn. When you go first, you can discard Grudge to PImp and then cast it for 1 mana easily, but you may not even need to kill it if you have PImp.

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I see the uphill battle, so praying to avoid Red Stompy and therefore conceding the low win percentage (on the draw) is understandable as well.

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It's a small percentage of the meta. Trying to break the lock when they go first is such an uphill battle (you need to board in 2cc answers to both Chalice and Blood Moon and extra lands and then draw them with Lotus Petals), it's not worth wasting the SB slots. Every deck has some abysmal matchups. Hope to never face them or win the die roll.

If you ignore Moon, Abrupt Decay is a more versatile 2cc answer than Ancient Grudge and can come in for more matchups. For non-Chalice decks, 1cc answers seem better.

You could sideboard two-ish Ash Barrens to help with extra lands and finding basics through Blood Moon. They even combo with Hollow One.

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Originally Posted by FTW

I like the direction you're going. By cutting down on mana sources you can cram in all the relevant creatures and be more explosive on turn 1s. I thought multiple Undiscovered Paradise would be too many and too awkward with lands bouncing back to hand, but they also fix your mana on turn 1 very well.

Maybe +1 Carrion Feeder -1 Gravecrawler. Feeder is really good in a lot of cases even without Gravecrawler. It combos with Bloodghast/Amalgam recursion too, grows off stuff dying, and saves you from Terminus/StP. OTOH Gravecrawler is the slowest and least threatening of the creatures you want to pitch.

For the sideboard, seriously consider a couple copies of Big Game Hunter. I'm not just trolling. With one of your 12 discard outlets on board, this card is a 1 mana instant that kills Emrakul, Griselbrand, Gurmag Angler, Tombstalker, Thought-Knot Seer, Reality Smasher, Knight of the Reliquary, Tarmogoyf, Sire of Insanity, Tidespout Tyrant, Iona, Elesh Norn, Chancellor of the Annex... It's your best card to bring it against SneakShow, Reanimator, and Eldrazi. It also kills any midrange guy that could profitably block Vengevine and Hollow One.

Some number of Faerie Macabre is probably good: BR Reanimator, Phoenix decks, Loam, even for Grixis Control and Storm.

You need some outs to Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage. Maybe Nature's Claim or Fragmentize. They also deal with stuff like Pithing Needle, Relic, Crypt, Ensnaring Bridge...

Surgical and Faerie Macabre don't necessarily hurt you that much since you have so many different threats. You could bring in some Silent Gravestone, but you might be better off just having another creature in the opener instead and trying to brute force your way through it. Needs testing.

You need outs to turn 1 Chalice of the Void on the play. Really badly. Abrupt Decay is tough on so few mana sources, but you don't have many other options.

Turn 1 Blood Moon on the play wrecks you, but I think you're better off praying to dodge Red Stompy than trying to board against them. Chalice / Moon / Trinisphere + sideboard hate is just death.

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I thought multiple Undiscovered Paradise would be akward too, but it's not actually that bad. The deck doesn't really need to commit too many lands to board anyway. Outside of Feeder/Crawler and Rootwalla pumps, the deck doesn't really need mana every turn. Undiscovered Paradise is just so good with Bloodghast that it's worth running the playset.

Maybe a 3/3 split of Feeder/Crawler would be better than the way I have it now, I'm not sure. Don't forget that Cabal Therapy can also sac Bloodghast midgame to recur Amalgam's, and Vengevine is recurrable by simply casting two topdecked one drops.

I agree with most of what you are suggesting for the sideboard. I haven't really gotten around to figuring it all out, though.

There are some key things to consider:

1) What are the bad matchups, and how are they fixed? If other combo decks are faster, then I probably need answers. White gives access to hatebears, black can provide more discard, there are other tools for more specific matchups like graveyard hate, creature removal, etc.

2) How impacted is this deck by the sideboard cards of other decks, and how do we combat this? We might have a great matchup game one against something, but if their postboard plan (i.e graveyard hate) tilts the matchup, we need to be able to address this. Do we play a transformational plan (independent of the graveyard), or do we fight the hate with cards like Nature's Claim, Pithing Needle, Silent Gravestone, etc?

These are questions I need to figure out the answers to before I formulate a sideboard plan.

As far as Chalice of the Void is concerned, I actually like Cavern of Souls as an answer to it. Cavern of Souls seems like a fantastic card to bring in against most of the format (i.e decks with Force of Will). I wish I could run them maindeck, but I don't want to cut Lotus Petal for them. I suppose I could cut the Savannah and trim on more fetchlands, but that may impact my ability to cast Cabal Therapy and sideboard cards. I am considering it though... Force of Will is everywhere, and resolving a discard outlet is critical for this deck...

As far as Blood Moon is concerned, I'm not worried about it. Basic Swamp + Lotus Petal is about as good as it's going to get for playing around it. I cannot afford to run any more basics. Nature's Claim is important for dealing with most forms of permanent-based graveyard hate, and can also deal with a Blood Moon, so that's how I plan to deal with it. If I have a Lotus Petal, it's possible that I can just ignore it... turn 1 Petal into Imp/Tribe, dump my hand onto the board seems perfectly serviceable.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

You could sideboard two-ish Ash Barrens to help with extra lands and finding basics through Blood Moon. They even combo with Hollow One.

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This is very sweet tech for dealing with Blood Moon, but it's way too narrow I think. Dragon Stompy is a fringe deck as it is, they don't always get to go first, and they don't always have a turn 1 Blood Moon when they do.

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Originally Posted by FTW

Both are very dangerous on the play, before you've cast a discard outlet.

How do you pay the mana cost for Ray of Revelation with Blood Moon out in the aggressive list? Notice the manabase of 1 basic (Swamp). Even if you board in more lands, they're probably not basic Plains. With Blood Moon on the play, you won't even have a discard outlet yet, so you need 1W for Ray: Lotus Petal + land (Mountain) + Ray or you scoop. Even when you go first and stick a discard outlet, generating either 1W or G through Moon needs a spare Petal.

Chalice stops you from sticking a discard outlet. It also counters Cabal Therapy, Basking Rootwalla, Carrion Feeder, Gravecrawler and most of the cheap SB answers you'd want to run. You're stuck relying on Lotleth Troll or hardcasting the slow guys in a land-light deck. Chalice is easier to kill (e.g. Ancient Grudge), but it still Time Walks you at least 2 turns until you can get the mana to kill it, then you can stick a PImp the next turn. When you go first, you can discard Grudge to PImp and then cast it for 1 mana easily, but you may not even need to kill it if you have PImp.



It's a small percentage of the meta. Trying to break the lock when they go first is such an uphill battle (you need to board in 2cc answers to both Chalice and Blood Moon and extra lands and then draw them with Lotus Petals), it's not worth wasting the SB slots. Every deck has some abysmal matchups. Hope to never face them or win the die roll.

If you ignore Moon, Abrupt Decay is a more versatile 2cc answer than Ancient Grudge and can come in for more matchups. For non-Chalice decks, 1cc answers seem better.

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I agree with all of this. Just discussion fodder. I think the Ash Barrens idea isn't terrible from pettdan.

Actually, the more I think about Cavern of Souls, the more I really want to run them maindeck. If the deck can resolve a discard outlet, the rest of the combo is impossible to interact with outside of graveyard hate or Terminus. Spot removal on the discard outlet doesn't stop the discarding from happening, Vengevines trigger on cast, etc. Between Cavern of Souls and Lotleth Troll, Chalice for 1 is no longer a problem. Beating Force of Will and Daze game one is just so huge...

Playing one or two lands in the sideboard is quite narrow, and if one chooses to do that, then Ash Barrens is an option. I wasn't really discussing whether this should be done or not, but 14 maindeck lands does seem quite low. It won't be easy to hardcast anything when RiP or Leyline shows up. So playing lands in the sideboard helps vs wasteland, graveyard hate to some extent, as well as blood moon. Just something to consider. Cavern is nice, probably worth testing, but it also makes the mana base more fragile.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

Playing one or two lands in the sideboard is quite narrow, and if one chooses to do that, then Ash Barrens is an option. I wasn't really discussing whether this should be done or not, but 14 maindeck lands does seem quite low. It won't be easy to hardcast anything when RiP or Leyline shows up. So playing lands in the sideboard helps vs wasteland, graveyard hate to some extent, as well as blood moon. Just something to consider. Cavern is nice, probably worth testing, but it also makes the mana base more fragile.

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14 lands equates to a little less than 1/4 of the deck being lands, which still means you're likely going to see 1-2 during the first couple of turns, which is all you need. That's also not accounting for the Lotus Petals, which can certainly be used to cast sideboard cards.

You are right that the manabase isn't setup to reliably hardcast Prized Amalgam's nor Vengevine's, but that's by design. Everything else can realistically be hardcast with a Leyline on the board, though. At any rate, I certainly don't want to board into more lands postboard to be able to hardcast Prized Amalgam or Vengevine through a RIP or Leyline... I'd rather board into Nature's Claim.

I'm not worried about Wasteland or Blood Moon enough to want to board into more lands either. The idea behind me wanting Cavern of Souls in the board is more about beating Force of Will, Daze, and Chalice of the Void (and to a lesser extent, Counterbalance) than about upping the total land count... although I really think I need to fit them into the maindeck. They certainly make the manabase more fragile, and it's a legit concern about having less sources to cast sideboard cards with, but being able to ignore Force of Will seems huge, so I don't know.

Ok, all points seem valid. So far I've only test drawn a few hands with an early version, but I was surprised by how inconsistent my starting hands were. Either all enablers or all graveyard creatures, also often light on mana. My initial guess is that I'll need to go for a cantrip shell to make it work, making it a very different deck. But that's just very early guessing.. Did anyone run a few test games yet?

I think this deck may want to take a page from Manaless to get around Blood Moon and things and just have Phantasmagorian in the side or something. May work better with Entomb?

EDIT: another idea is to run Crop Rotation as a way to find Undiscovered Paradise or Cavern of Souls when needed, reducing the number of copies needed (maybe 2 each?); this also improves your anti-gravehate or allows you a karakas, while also maybe giving you a mutavault for Gravecrawler?

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Originally Posted by pettdan

Ok, all points seem valid. So far I've only test drawn a few hands with an early version, but I was surprised by how inconsistent my starting hands were. Either all enablers or all graveyard creatures, also often light on mana. My initial guess is that I'll need to go for a cantrip shell to make it work, making it a very different deck. But that's just very early guessing.. Did anyone run a few test games yet?

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The deck is built with redundancy in the same way a deck like BR Reanimator is. Sometimes you may not draw the mix of what you need; that's what mulligans are for. In the same way Reanimator needs Faithless Looting, a fatty, and a reanimation spell, we need a discard outlet, creatures to discard, and a way to return them.

Luckily, the requirements for returning our creatures are pretty easy to meet... Vengevine needs two creatures to be cast, Bloodghast needs us to play a land, and Gravecrawler wants us to have a zombie in play. The deck is built to have a sufficient amount of these things.

Cantrips could help to improve consistency, but it comes at the cost of tempo loss. Compare UB Reanimator to BR Reanimator. I don't think this deck is powerful enough if you take away its speed. At that point, you probably need to also be running Thoughtseize, and then... you might as well just play Buried Alive and Arclight Phoenix.

Anyone want to stream on twitch? I'm still skeptical that getting a single 4/3 haster with a madness style deck is the best direction, but I haven't tested that build. Would be happy to see it had some legs!

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Actually, the more I think about Cavern of Souls, the more I really want to run them maindeck.

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I was also thinking about Caverns main, especially in the 4 color list. For your first play it's great fixing, it beats Stifle, and you don't have to worry about Chalice or FoW or Daze on your turn 1 discard outlet. It makes your turn 1 better, but your midgame worse (harder to play "fair"). Maybe the all-in deck doesn't care?

Caverns naming Zombie casts Putrid Imp, Lotleth Troll, Carrion Feeder, Gravecrawler and even the blue for Prized Amalgam! Very useful. You won't even need any blue duals, because they're only to hardcast Amalgam.

For Tireless Tribe you have to name something useless like Human. You'll still get your uncounterable outlet on turn 1, but then you have a useless land for the rest of the game. It could be awkward if your first set of creatures gets killed and then you topdeck uncastable PImp. Maybe that's too narrow to worry about.

The big drawback is it's much harder to cast colored noncreature spells, namely Cabal Therapy and sideboard answers. Worst case with Therapy, you can pitch it to a discard outlet and cast it for Flashback, so maybe it's not a big deal as long as you stick that discard outlet.

It's also harder to regenerate Lotleth Troll (4 lands produce colorless, 4 lands bounce to your hand), but again maybe that grindiness is less relevant if turn 1 is explosive enough.

SB cards become trickier. Silent Gravestone (Surgical, Faerie Macabre, Scavenging Ooze) and Pithing Needle (Crypt, Relic) are colorless, so that's fine. Gravestone also hoses BR Reanimator and Grixis GY recursion, so it does double duty as gravehate. Big Game Hunter is a Human (works with Tireless Tribe)! Cards like Nature's Claim though become a lot harder to support with Caverns.

Do we want Ingot Chewer and friends instead of Nature's Claim/Fragmentize? They're 1cc creatures for Vengevine, pitch to Lotleth Troll, dodge Chalice of the Void, and can be uncounterable with Caverns if the game depends on killing some combo piece backed by countermagic. That could shift us to a rainbow manabase (Mana Confluence or Ancient Ziggurat over fetches and duals).

Ash Barrens seems bad. You need basics main and then Ash Barrens, too many bad lands. We could just play rainbow lands instead. This isn't Pauper Madness.

Phantasmagorian seems bad. LED Dredge doesn't run it. Manaless runs it because they literally have 0 options that cost mana.

I do like the idea of Ingot Chewer and Wispmare quite a bit, although that does tax more sideboard space and loses the versatility that Nature's Claim offers by being able to hit both artifacts and enchantments, so I don't know.

Shifting to a rainbow manabase may make more sense if I'm already trying to run a playset of Undiscovered Paradise and Cavern of Souls, although I did appreciate the ability to fetch the basic Swamp when necessary, so again, I don't know.

Certainly there is much food for thought.

I got some spare time today so i sleaved up my straight Bg version. I tested Street Wraith and its absolute garbage, all the criticism of it has been confirmed. Lotus Petal was similarly bad. I had plenty of lands (still on 18) to play out the curve and the petals were only good turn 1, and only if i could maximize the impact. In the blind it was just too risky. I replaced the street wraiths with Stinkweed Imps and the Lotus petals with 2x Gurmag (very good) and 2x Therapy. After a few more games i realized as Hanni suggested that i needed more discard outlets, 10 just isn't enough. I loved that Brutality, even if countered, could enable Stinkweed or other synergies. On a whim when i ordered Trolls i got a set of Sickening Dreams. I added 2 of them as another unconditional discard outlet that whipes out small dudes and gives reach.

I'm definitely landing in mid-range territory. It can be explosive but is more likely to want disruption first and then pick a turn where i can spam out 3-4 threats. Controlling the timing seems to help get around grave hate.

Updated list, this is what i will take to the Sunday weekly:
4x Pimp
4x rootwalla
4x bloodghast
4x vengevine
4x hollow one
4x lotleth troll
4x Stinkweed imp
2x gurmag angler
4x thoughtseize
2x cabal therapy
2x collective brutality
2x sickening dreams
2x abrupt decay
4x verdant
2x marsh flats
2x windswept heath
1x bayou
2x blooming marsh
4x swamp
2x forest
1x dakmor salvage

Sideboard
2x scooze
2x sylvan library
2x hymn
2x diabolic edict
4x faerie macabre
1x Bitterblossom
1x liliana, the last hope
1x maelstrom pulse

I tried out some games with Hanni's list + a 5 color manabase:

4 Tireless Tribe
4 Hollow One
2 Carrion Feeder
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Putrid Imp
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Gravecrawler
4 Vengevine
4 Bloodghast
4 Lotus Petal
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard
2 Big Game Hunter
3 Wispmare
2 Ingot Chewer
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Pithing Needle
3 Collective Brutality

I had a lot of fun with it! This deck is super hard to mulligan with because you have to weigh the odds of topdecking one of the cards you need to make your hand good. I had more success when I didn't just mulligan to a blazing-fast start--against some decks, Cabal therapy and some creatures is good enough. Unfortunately, some hands I felt obligated to keep had an early hollow one and not much else, and the hollow one just got swordsed and I lost.

Lotus petal was amazing--it lets you get vines on turn 1 without rootwalla, put bloodghasts into play t1, enables t1 lotleth, and even just lets you hardcast amalgam. I really liked the 5color manabase, by the time I was getting wastelanded I had usually either lost already or had enough on board to win on its own. Cavern was awkward a couples times, and since I think I want assassin's trophy in the board, it gets worse. However, there are so few noncreature spells in the deck and resolving a t1 discard outlet is so important that I think they're necessary. Speaking of trophy, I feel like a more versatile card for the sideboard is better--it kills cards like young pyro (so annoying for this deck) as well as the chalice, rip, leyline, etc. that this deck is worried about. Trophy is worse than decay against counterbalance, and giving our opponents lands is relevant, but I think it's important to be able to kill leyline. Then again, this deck can sometimes pull out wins against graveyard hate via the hollow one plan :wink:

Lotleth troll was good in some matchups, but I sided it out a lot for the brutalities, which are generally better vs. aggro and combo. Both are kinda slow and bad with hollow one, and they're bad enough in multiples that it's probably best to have a 2/2 or 3 troll/2 brutality split in the main. Bloodghast was the worst recurring creature in the deck, and often I didn't hand a land to get it back, so I think cutting one for a land makes some sense. This also makes it easier to cast assassin's trophy.

Here's where I'm at now:

4 Tireless Tribe
4 Hollow One
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Collective Brutality
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Putrid Imp
4 Mana Confluence
2 Lotleth Troll
4 Gravecrawler
4 Vengevine
3 Bloodghast
4 Lotus Petal
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 Carrion Feeder
3 City of Brass

Sideboard
2 Big Game Hunter
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Pithing Needle
2 Collective Brutality
4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Wispmare

Oh, and asylum visitor could be a great maindeck or sideboard card given how quickly we dump our hand. Only problem is it might not be enough to set up our combos again, especially the ones involving hollow one.