Steel Stompy 2.0 / Ravager Shops

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Originally Posted by NormalGuy

Is there any gameplan against mass artifact hate such as Null Rod and Hurkyl's Recall

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If you see Hurkyl's Recall, you're in a weird meta indeed. Null Rod you can beat if it comes down a bit later and you've had the chance to already get a Ravager or so down and can make something big. This deck doesn't run on artifact mana sources so it's slightly less destroyed by Null Rod but of course, most of your cards are 2/X or 1/X with no abilities with it in play. Hence why a Ravager eating things and going to town (though Chalice might be equally backbreaking to your enemy). Energy Flux is much the same, you need to get one threat out there and ride it to victory. Seeds of Innocence & al. are much like Hurkyl except without the rebuilding opportunity, but with manlands you can generally leave something behind. Serenity is actually pretty slow so you can prepare for it. Ancient Grudge and company are eminently beatable cards you can play through; spot removal is pretty bad against Ravager much of the time and the Tax plan can make particularly the 3-mana hate cards unwieldy.

But honestly, aside from a random Null Rod I'd expect the worst you have to put up with to be Ancient Grudge, Sorcerous Spyglass and Pithing Needle, which are much more tenable than the heavy duty artifact hate (since the only artifact presences in the meta are like this and MUD-variants, and neither are very popular so why the hell would someone spend SB space on Energy Flux or something...?).

The card I think you might actually see that hurts is Cursed Totem if your meta has a lot of Elves.

I currently jam this version and it works quite well - coming from a lot of other stompy decks i am surprised that the little artifacts do their job and it also very good to grind out battles with all the cheap interaction, it adds up quickly.

Compared to MKM version i also liked the 3rd Lodestone more than another Thorn, while Thorn is nice as a start it can do nothing in some matchups and simply is a bad topdeck in a lot of situations, Lodestone apply some pressure on its own and can be cast T2 too - in terms of higher cc or topdecks, smugglers copter to a ton of work, not only offers fast airstrikes, it also a nice filter draw engine and can be turned of with 1 mana-manland too!

I can see what Amadeus meant by Strix/Tnn but Etched Champion (or even Jitte) can also do a lot of damage vs blue control decks. I currently try different one offs since if game enters stall/grind you can also use Inventors' Fair tutor quite often vs Miracle, C.Pile etc.

// 60 Maindeck

// 15 Artifact
2 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Smuggler's Copter
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Lotus Petal

// 23 Creature
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Walking Ballista
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
3 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker

// 22 Land
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Inventors' Fair
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Karakas

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Etched Champion
SB: 3 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

How about a step into the other direction? I see you took out a little acceleration and added slower cards. How about adding something even more breakneck:

3 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst

2 Hangarback Walker
4 Walking Ballista
3 Lupine Prototype
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Steel Overseer
4 Vault Skirge
4 Phyrexian Revoker

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
2 Inventors' Fair
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Karakas

// 15 Sideboard
SB: 2 Sorcerous Spyglass
SB: 2 Lodestone Golem
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 4 Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void

this so funny!!

I actually tested etched champion and lupine prototype.

The champion was to slow for because of the cc 3. But i am curious to hear what your impression of the card is and in whitch matchup you want them.

For the prototype: My problem was that the prototype forces you to overextend into sweepers and also forces you to play lands even if you want to hold them in your hand. The Reason for holding lands can be the fear of price of progress or having a city out and not wanting to sac it

Please let me know what your expieriences are

I played vs a friend on this deck at my lgs on Tuesday, looked very impressive. Look forward to giving it a go myself soon too, great job @Man of Steel!

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Originally Posted by Man of Steel

this so funny!!

I actually tested etched champion and lupine prototype.

The champion was to slow for because of the cc 3. But i am curious to hear what your impression of the card is and in whitch matchup you want them.

For the prototype: My problem was that the prototype forces you to overextend into sweepers and also forces you to play lands even if you want to hold them in your hand. The Reason for holding lands can be the fear of price of progress or having a city out and not wanting to sac it

Please let me know what your expieriences are

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Etched Champion - it works well vs fair creature Decks with a bunch of smaller creatures (aka Bridge isnt great enough) and with Raver/Overseer/Equipment it can be quickly "GG" and its a good roadblock until you set up. Bonus Points for also dodge spot removal in most cases. I switch it with Lodestone or Revoker depends on what i face, cc3 is okay because you dont need it the early turns and if this deck can support other cc3 stuff (lodestone, swords, bridge) Champion should also be cheap enough.

For Prototype, yeah not sold on it, more all in card than needed and holding lands can also be good if you run some copters:wink:

@Man of Steel
Overall impressiv deck and very nice that you runned it successfully at mkm, besides i missed the opportunity to talk with you about it :tongue:

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Originally Posted by Eldariel

If you see Hurkyl's Recall, you're in a weird meta indeed. Null Rod you can beat if it comes down a bit later and you've had the chance to already get a Ravager or so down and can make something big. This deck doesn't run on artifact mana sources so it's slightly less destroyed by Null Rod but of course, most of your cards are 2/X or 1/X with no abilities with it in play. Hence why a Ravager eating things and going to town (though Chalice might be equally backbreaking to your enemy). Energy Flux is much the same, you need to get one threat out there and ride it to victory. Seeds of Innocence & al. are much like Hurkyl except without the rebuilding opportunity, but with manlands you can generally leave something behind. Serenity is actually pretty slow so you can prepare for it. Ancient Grudge and company are eminently beatable cards you can play through; spot removal is pretty bad against Ravager much of the time and the Tax plan can make particularly the 3-mana hate cards unwieldy.

But honestly, aside from a random Null Rod I'd expect the worst you have to put up with to be Ancient Grudge, Sorcerous Spyglass and Pithing Needle, which are much more tenable than the heavy duty artifact hate (since the only artifact presences in the meta are like this and MUD-variants, and neither are very popular so why the hell would someone spend SB space on Energy Flux or something...?).

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The storm players near me like to run Hurkyl's Recall in the sideboard to get around chalice/sphere effects. Miracles might run it too, not sure though.

@ hatecards:

you have to learn how to beat them. For example my brother Plays storm and he always has 3 hurkyl`s recall. The recalls are good, but if you always lose to it, you did something wrong
Same for null rod. In the testing Process a friend of mine played a maverick deck with 3 stony silence maindeck and i beat him 50% of the time

The lesson i try to teach you is:Testing has to be harder than the Tournament. Play against the absurd hate and the tournamnet will come easy to you

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Originally Posted by Man of Steel

@ hatecards:

you have to learn how to beat them. For example my brother Plays storm and he always has 3 hurkyl`s recall. The recalls are good, but if you always lose to it, you did something wrong
Same for null rod. In the testing Process a friend of mine played a maverick deck with 3 stony silence maindeck and i beat him 50% of the time

The lesson i try to teach you is:Testing has to be harder than the Tournament. Play against the absurd hate and the tournamnet will come easy to you

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What were the matchups you had at MKMF? Were any particularly tricky or oddly easy? Are 4 Bridge and 2 Karakas enough for S&T with the Revokers?

to your third question: Yes, it is enough to make you a favorite, but i would not cut even one of those cards
in the trial iplayed against Enchantress, 4c Loam, Food Chain and Maverick and in the mainevent food chain, Moon Stompy, BR Reanimator, Grixis Delver, Eldrazi, Sneak & Show, Big Eldrazi, Cech Pile, storm

Grixis delver and the pile a hard to pilot and to sideboard but the rest was easy at least in my opinion. I tested the deck a lot and even i make many mistakes. Moon stompy is normally a horrible MU, but I might only think that because a friend of mine plays a very goog version of the deck for playing against me

i love that you can go to a major tourney and play vs:
food chain, Moon Stompy, BR Reanimator, Grixis Delver, Eldrazi, Sneak & Show, Big Eldrazi, Czech Pile, storm all in one tournament!

legacy really is the best.

Amen to that!

By the way, the first part of the sideboard guide is now online. You find it here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...91#post1035191

Steel Stompy just took 1st at this month's Card Kingdom 1k. 70-ish players. Vod here.

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Originally Posted by Kaono

Steel Stompy just took 1st at this month's Card Kingdom 1k

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in a very suspicious fashion though :tongue: there were lots of questionable life choices from the maverick player in the quarters, wasting two copies of Abrupt Decay on silly stuff when he could destroy the ensnaring bridge and make the 20/20 swing to the semis.

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Originally Posted by Cave

in a very suspicious fashion though :tongue: there were lots of questionable life choices from the maverick player in the quarters, wasting two copies of Abrupt Decay on silly stuff when he could destroy the ensnaring bridge and make the 20/20 swing to the semis.

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Right, he could have won if he did not tunnel vision on a DRS kill (which is pretty odd give that you know your opponent doesn't play instant/sorceries and you have a very limited amount of them). I have noticed the same kind of behavior in the past where people "forget" to win because they're so focused on not dying and it hurts my maverick player instinct since it's supposed to be an agressive deck, not a control one!

On his defense tho, I think the first abrupt decay turned out ok because his opponent could have killed it's own Hangarback and made 5+ flying blockers for Marit Lage. The second one was just painful tho.

On the flip side the steel stomp Player was trying to do everything in his control to win the game for the elves player in the finals.

Glad there was a very broad top 8. Those are always fun to see.

míke played suboptimal and his Version is suboptimal, but the core of my deck is so great, that all those things doesn`t matter

Hi! Today I played the deck (the exact same version that top8'ed in the big MKM tourney). I went 4-2 and the matches were the following:
BR reanimator 2-1
Maverick 1-2
Storm 2-1
UR burn 1-2
Landstill 2-0
Grixis delver 2-1

I made some play mistakes overall, and also it was my first time playing the deck (never even playtested it). And the UR burn match was pretty close (he finished at 1 life in the third match). Overall I love the deck!

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Originally Posted by Man of Steel

míke played suboptimal and his Version is suboptimal, but the core of my deck is so great, that all those things doesn`t matter

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Is SoFI that much better than Jitte? Also, thoughts on Dismember or some other form of spot removal outside of Ballista?

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Originally Posted by zebhillard

Is SoFI that much better than Jitte? Also, thoughts on Dismember or some other form of spot removal outside of Ballista?

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dismember is too much lifeloss. Sofi is better than jitte (strix and tnn), but that is a Slot you can Change,but not for jitte or copter


@raist: the deckis suprisingly hard to Play. the weekest Point is the Pilot (even if i Play it):tongue:

I was not impressed by sofi in my matches, it was always quite bad (but of course I didnt face any tnn or strix in all the tournament, so...).

Aside from that, the decklist looks nearly perfect. The skirges, although they might seem debatable, worked quite good overall. Maybe a third lodestone, or some more hangarbacks in sideboard. Also I think mishras factory versus blinkmoth nexus can be debatable, as flying is very relevant in some matches, its probably a metagame dependant choice like the sword?

I was also very impressed by the city of traitors. I think they work much much much better in this deck than in any other deck.

I sometimes had doubts about whether to sideboard in the bridges or not, not completely sure in which matches you want them (aside from obvious ones like reanimator or eldrazi).

Congrats for the good design!

Andrea Mengucci played my deck today at channelfireball. He showed the world how NOT to play my deck. He made every mistake you can imagine. You need to practice with the deck or you will loose matchups like burn or belcher like he did. I am so happy that it is not just me making mistakes.:tongue: By the way i like mengucci and his videos

Hey guys, I said in twitch chat today that I'd post my list from the CK 1K yesterday here.

List:

4 Overseer
4 Ravager
4 Hangarback
4 Ballista
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Vault Skirge
2 Revoker

4 Chalice
2 Thorn
2 Jitte

2 Petal
3 Opal
4 Tomb
4 Cavern
3 City
1 Karakas
4 Factory
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Wasteland

SB:

1 Dismember
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Cage
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Revoker
3 Ratchet Bomb
2 Thorn


Matches I played for the day were: Storm, UR delver (camera match), Merfolk, Storm, Elves, ID, ID Top 8: Maverick, Sneak, Elves (same player as round 5)

I really liked the way this list played. I was actually brewing a list similar to this back in Nov. I Top 4ed the last CK 1K with a UB build that featured Thoughtcast and Tezzeret, but I really liked the design of the colorless version. The planeswalker gave the deck a lot of grind, but was a bit inconsistent at times. This list that I came to was basically a combination of what I liked about both.

Deck Design Decisions:

Manabase:

What I've actually come to learn in playing this deck is that you really don't need a turn 1 play always. The deck has a lot of grind to it, so as long as your manabase is stable you tend to be ok. I ideally want to sit at the 4-8 mana as the hangarbacks/ballistas are just so much better the bigger you can make them, so I wanted more permanence to my manabase. I tried the list with 4 petals and 4 city, but was having too many issues. I basically only ever want to see 1 petal in my opener maybe and never again after that, so I trimmed that to 2. Similarly, I trimmed a City. Playing 4 hangarback means there are 12 constructs in the deck, so cavern was a great inclusion to the deck. Since I trimmed some petals, I added vault of whispers to help increase the odds of fast metalcraft and is ravager food if you flood. Vaults could be darksteel citadels, or could trim some for more wastelands/other utility lands. I tend to not like wasteland a lot in the list. It has great utility, but I'm often trying to use all of my mana each turn to maximize the power of all of the threats this deck has.

2 Thorns:
Thorns are great a lot of the time, but not always I wanted to keep the threat count high and include more golems, because 4 golems are insane. Still want the 4 thorn vs combo, so moved them to the SB. Combo matchups are strong enough post board that I think its ok.

2 Jitte: With so many threats I think Jitte is the better equipment. It is pretty easy to be attacking with an equipped creature on turn 2 and in fair matches that is often game. The lifegain is great, and extra ways to pump skirges is awesome.

2 Revoker: Revoker is one of my favorite cards in vintage, but in legacy its powerful, but not always the best. I don't think you need 4 in the main and would rather have other things.

4 Golem: always insane in multiples, reminds me of vintage champs several years ago when I was able to play 4 golem 4 chalice. With a more stable manabase this guy is still easily castable and often can still come down on turn 3 or 2.

4 hangarback: single-handedly out grinds non-white fair matches and makes the ballista combo more potent. I could see it maybe go down to 3 of in the right meta, but I really like 4.

3 skirge: necessary but would rather not be a 4 of. jitte helps with the lifegain here so i think its ok to trim to 3.

SB:

1 Dismember: I like having a bit more removal for some of the fair matches

3 ratchet bombs: good catch-all, also expected a good showing of elves on the weekend, so bomb is great there

3 bridges: card is great If you're really concerned about TNN you can even board some of these in. Beat merfolk stablizing at 1 life staring at 3 TNN with a bridge in play.

1 Revoker: Really good in some matches, so still have a 3rd revoker in the 75

2 Thorn: Think these are better in the SB as Thorn isn't always the best.

1 Cage: was expecting elves

One thing to note about the CK meta, is that it tends to be a bit hostile to lands variants, so I was able to worry about that matchup a bit less when making design decisions.


Overall very happy with the deck. My play in the top 8 was sloppy, but after a long day I was a bit tired, everyone was making mistakes.


Important final note, Seattle area has been calling the list "Dos Equis" which I think is a great name for the deck.

First of all congrats to you mike.

When i saw your list, i realized that your deck is in my opinion totally different from my deck. You are going for a longer game in which lodestone golem is a very strong card. My deck is more of an Steel RUG Delver deck. Get ahead and stay ahead (of course steel stompy has much less trouble with being on the draw then RUG)

In on of my earlier Posts i sayed "if you dont want to play the 4 thorns , play an other deck". I want to be very clear about this. Your deck is in my opinion an other deck. The keeps and mulligans are different as well as the gameplay. I think you started with my list and created your own MUD:tongue:

Good job. If i were you, i would consider Phyrexian metamorph, because of the 4 golem and the lack of the fourth bridge and the second karakas

That's what so great about this engine. It's so powerful that you can pretty much set up the deck to fit your playstyle. I'll have to rethink metamorph. I had dismissed it early in the design of the deck, but that was before I had gone up to 4 golem. It is definitely worth reconsidering.

I kinda really want to turn turn 1 Metalcraft Mox into a thing in this deck; I feel like it's a great pair for Chalice. However, I feel like Petals are a bit too much resources lost in a deck that makes great use of permanent mana and every spell. 0-cost artifacts that do things seem nice; while Ornithopter seems natural, it's only so good. This had me going through all the old 0-drop artifacts in the game. Welding Jar would be cool except for the removal used in Legacy. Fatal Push it works against but StP and Dismember are both immune to it. One thought that occurred to me is that this deck makes great use of additional cards so perhaps Mishra's or Urza's Baubles could be interesting? You get the card back and they are artifacts for stuff.

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Originally Posted by Man of Steel

In on of my earlier Posts i sayed "if you dont want to play the 4 thorns , play an other deck". I want to be very clear about this. Your deck is in my opinion an other deck. The keeps and mulligans are different as well as the gameplay. I think you started with my list and created your own MUD:tongue:

Good job. If i were you, i would consider Phyrexian metamorph, because of the 4 golem and the lack of the fourth bridge and the second karakas

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Those Tusk boys like their long game, it's in their blood it seems.

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Originally Posted by vnayin

That's what so great about this engine. It's so powerful that you can pretty much set up the deck to fit your playstyle. I'll have to rethink metamorph. I had dismissed it early in the design of the deck, but that was before I had gone up to 4 golem. It is definitely worth reconsidering.

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I've been looking at Metamorph myself, with 3 Revoker / Petal and 2 Metamorph at the first changes I thought about.

Clearly, vnayin's deck is slightly less explosive and more into the longer game. I personally prefer the original list (although maybe with an additional golem), and no way I'm cutting any cities or petals, as they are highly necessary to play one thing turn 1 and two things turn 2.

However, I think I agree with the jitte comment (without having tested it) because the difference in this deck between a casting cost of 2 and 3 is HUGE if you want to use it early. With sofi usually the best you can do is turn 1 critter turn 2 sofi turn 3 attack+another critter (not great), or turn 1 lock piece turn 2 critter critter turn 3 attack with sofi (only if you have 5 manas)... Whereas with jitte it can be turn 1 critter turn 2 attack with jitte (superb in some matchups), or turn 1 lock, turn 2 critter critter turn 3 attack with jitte (even if you only have 4 mana, so slightly easier).

Hi Man of Steel,

First of all, this is my first post on the forum and i made it just to thank you for sharing your decklist and congratulate you for MKM, i have managed to sleeve up the exact deck last week and brought it to 2 local game store's legacy night.

Just a quick summary of how the games went:

Store 1
Elves 2-1
G1: Managed to T1 chalice which delays them enough before he manages to find a rec sage which was too late. Had mishra's factory + ravager + walking ballista on board which grew everyturn and ping on almost every creature for the win.
G2: Took out 4Vault Skirges + 2hangerbacks + 2lodestone, in with 2rachet bomb + 4 bridges + 2spellskites, mull down to 4 as i did not have any sol-lands + lock pcs in 1st draw and no lands at all for 2nd draw, 3rd i remember was bad as well. Opponents was able to pull off early craterhoof with just 2creatrures on board and followed by hitting everyturn for 5 to which i did not drew into bridge.
G3: Got a chalice in play T1 which opponent did not draw into answer, followed up with wastelands into gaea's cradle and use a 1/1 to ping arbor dryad, this was enough of an advantage. Won using steel overseer pump on ballista afterwards.

U/W stoneforge 2-0
G1: Chalice was countered, but followed up with ballista sac to kill stonefordge b4 butterskull could come in. 2xmishra's factory and later with steel oversea pressure with the +1+1 pumps on factories was too much, opponent did not have much in play.
G2: Cant remember much, but was a quick kill, with SOFI + revoker.

Miracles (MythStill) 0-2
G1: T1 Chalice was fow, turn 2 thorn was countered. As the game dragged on i find myself unable to keep a creatures on the board, had a thorn + revoker on myth realised. But was later snapcaster plowed and died to myth activation.
G2: Sided in 2spyglasses + 2spellskite + 1 SOFI , out 2xloadestone + 4skirges. Mulled to 6 still no chalice in hand, first revoker got plowed, managed to keep another revoker + spyglass on board for long time stopping myth realised. Was hitting for 2s using mishras factory into game after most of the board got terminus and no hand. Mistake came when i used a inventor's fair to search for SOFI, as it would close the game equiping on factory. Opponent laid fown back to basics, found his disenchant and won.

Store 2
Czech piles 2-0
G1: Was hymm T1, put a ravager into play which was bolted. Played another ravager + hangerback, both stayed on board with opponent having a DRS + strix, managed to get steel overseer into play which won the game with airforce later.
G2: Cant remember on sideboard. Opponent did not present much threat after initial removals, was able to win with a thorn in play with a late chalice to stop removals.

Omni-tell 2-1
G1: Chalice was spell pierced, however opponent could not find pieces in time, lost to lodestone golem with SOFI which hits hard.
G2: Pulled in bridges, took out skirges. Hand was bad even after mull, thorn + 2ballistas and hangerback if im not wrong, was too greedy, did not mull again. Opponent managed to pull off SnT, showing omenisence. GG
G3: Mulled for chalice on 1,had bridge in hand ready for SnT, however did not have to use them, mishra's factory + steel overseer was too fast a clock and won before opponent could find combo pcs.

Dredge 2-0
G1: opponent on the play put ichorid + jellyfish onto play T2. I put hangerback which i ate and got rid of 2xbridges, with ravager eating lotus petal which helped to hold on for quite a few turns before i could stabilized at with ballista+steel overseer and won.
G2: In with Leyline of the void, drew it opening 7card hand. Smiled.

Against most decks, the general feel is that it seems able to always be just 1 turn ahead if lock pcs resolves.
I find that the hardest match up i had even in casual games were miracles varients. Its really hard to keep a stable board and plow or early terminus and it is really hard to get back into the game given snapcasters later.
Do you have any advise on this? Would like to hear from your experiences.

Thank you.

I've been thinking about Miracles and how to improve, as well. Miracles is unique because there is no Vintage analog to the deck - so no one's really had to think about how to beat Terminus and STP.

Where to find space: as Mike mentioned above, he could see trimming to 3x Hangarback Walker. I think this card is particularly bad against Miracles (Terminus + STP = no value). Where else could we find MD or SB space?

Some avenues to consider:

• DNT leverages the equipment plan in the Miracles matchup. Any body + equipment is a threat and so DNT attempts to play one threat at a time along with the equipment to win. How can we add consistency to this plan? Is Inventor's Fair enough? Are there other similar effects?
• Seagate Wreckage/Coercive Portal. Are these effects powerful enough? Or not impactful for the cost?
• Winter Orb. Could our tax effects combine with our sol lands to push us ahead in a Winter Orb situation? We have many mana sinks - but it isn't necessary to utilize those sinks if we have an advantage on board, already.
• Cavern of Souls. If Miracles and similar control decks are an issue, we MUST find room and maintain Cavern of Souls.

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Originally Posted by Blacksummer

I find that the hardest match up i had even in casual games were miracles varients. Its really hard to keep a stable board and plow or early terminus and it is really hard to get back into the game given snapcasters later.
Do you have any advise on this? Would like to hear from your experiences.[/B]

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Originally Posted by korstructure

I've been thinking about Miracles and how to improve, as well. Miracles is unique because there is no Vintage analog to the deck - so no one's really had to think about how to beat Terminus and STP.

Where to find space: as Mike mentioned above, he could see trimming to 3x Hangarback Walker. I think this card is particularly bad against Miracles (Terminus + STP = no value). Where else could we find MD or SB space?

Some avenues to consider:

• DNT leverages the equipment plan in the Miracles matchup. Any body + equipment is a threat and so DNT attempts to play one threat at a time along with the equipment to win. How can we add consistency to this plan? Is Inventor's Fair enough? Are there other similar effects?
• Seagate Wreckage/Coercive Portal. Are these effects powerful enough? Or not impactful for the cost?
• Winter Orb. Could our tax effects combine with our sol lands to push us ahead in a Winter Orb situation? We have many mana sinks - but it isn't necessary to utilize those sinks if we have an advantage on board, already.
• Cavern of Souls. If Miracles and similar control decks are an issue, we MUST find room and maintain Cavern of Souls.

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Things that are in general good vs Miracles are hasty creatures (either haste or EoT Aether Vial), uncounterable creatures (Cavern/Vial) or threats that are resilient (e.g. manlands).

Vial doesn't work with Walker/Ballista and I can't see Cavern working either with so many different creature types. I've heard alot of good things about Winter Orb, but never played it myself in any of my decks to confirm it.

Other than that, maybe Lightning Greaves? It opens up the haste/protection angle.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Things that are in general good vs Miracles are hasty creatures (either haste or EoT Aether Vial), uncounterable creatures (Cavern/Vial) or threats that are resilient (e.g. manlands).

Vial doesn't work with Walker/Ballista and I can't see Cavern working either with so many different creature types. I've heard alot of good things about Winter Orb, but never played it myself in any of my decks to confirm it.

Other than that, maybe Lightning Greaves? It opens up the haste/protection angle.

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Is the Miracles match up that bad? I haven't got to play this deck yet but seems with 4 Factories, Chalices, Lodestone Golems, there is enough disruption and enough pressure to not have it be that bad. Eldrazi is what I currently play and Smasher is of course the trump card, so would a Fleetwood Cruiser be Steel Stompy's Smasher? I believe Vintage shops plays it. I'd figure Cruiser or a Smuggler's Copter would be preferred before Lightning Greaves and beat Terminus.

I`m sorry that i have to say: against miracles its more about your timing and pacing of the match than it is about specific cards.

Factory is your best card. But the most important thing is not to overextend into there sweepers and at the same time keep up the preasure. This matchup often comes down to "who is the better player"

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Originally Posted by Man of Steel

I`m sorry that i have to say: against miracles its more about your timing and pacing of the match than it is about specific cards.

Factory is your best card. But the most important thing is not to overextend into there sweepers and at the same time keep up the preasure. This matchup often comes down to "who is the better player"

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Guess that means with more practice, it can be done. Would you consider it to be a unfavorable matchup? On paper, it seems with 4xthorns + Lodestone + chalice, it might be sufficient disruption, but after sideboard with disenchants coming in and back to basics, it seems pretty tough to keep ahead, and keep pressure up.

Will try again tonight and keep the "not to overextend" thought in my mind. Any tips on what sideboard options and if you would prefer to go aggro or pace it out?
(I would like to think that keeping a hand with chalice but not going T1 chalice for 1 would be the right way, putting creatures down and getting them to use their fow/counters before locking up with chalice) <===something along this line of play ?

Thank you in advance !!!

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Originally Posted by Blacksummer

Guess that means with more practice, it can be done. Would you consider it to be a unfavorable matchup? On paper, it seems with 4xthorns + Lodestone + chalice, it might be sufficient disruption, but after sideboard with disenchants coming in and back to basics, it seems pretty tough to keep ahead, and keep pressure up.

Will try again tonight and keep the "not to overextend" thought in my mind. Any tips on what sideboard options and if you would prefer to go aggro or pace it out?
(I would like to think that keeping a hand with chalice but not going T1 chalice for 1 would be the right way, putting creatures down and getting them to use their fow/counters before locking up with chalice) <===something along this line of play ?

Thank you in advance !!!

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This Matchup is a war over resources. You can board out some number of petals and of course the walkers. Don`t board out any thorns or golems. You need to disrupt their efficiency. Make all your cards matter and protect your factories as much as possible. This one of the matchups where you can take a slower approach to the game to maximize the effect of your cards

Curious what our worst matchups are in your opinion.

What would keep this deck from immediately becoming the best deck in the format? (Given sufficient player skill and meta representation)

And what's our matchup like against "best deck" grixis delver?

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Originally Posted by Man of Steel

I`m sorry that i have to say: against miracles its more about your timing and pacing of the match than it is about specific cards.

Factory is your best card. But the most important thing is not to overextend into there sweepers and at the same time keep up the preasure. This matchup often comes down to "who is the better player"

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Worst Match is Lands. I lent out Lands when I played this last week. Even someone unskilled with the deck shot me full of holes. Wasteland and GQ into Tabernacle is hard to answer.

Also, if this deck becomes DtB, it will be easy for oher decks to adapt with SB cards. There are a lot of cards out there that severely cripple this deck that are simply not mainstream yet.

Off the top of my head I think Nic Fit with Explorer and Deed would give this deck trouble.

If null rod saw any play, it would be a major problem for this deck.