I'm fine with a predetermined banned list to start, but I think Mental Misstep needs to be legal to act as 'policeman'. There needs to be some risk to going all-in.
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I'm fine with a predetermined banned list to start, but I think Mental Misstep needs to be legal to act as 'policeman'. There needs to be some risk to going all-in.
Right now, Misstep isn't on the banned list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
I don't even think it's all that good, as most of the really dangerous stuff costs more than one mana.
Hanni had already asked, but are we bound to singleton?
I say start with your already established list of cards in the first few posts as bans. All of them make a ton of sense. This way if someone is reading through the thread they won't be confused.
So for the first round I support doing this:
Quote:
A: We could discuss for a few more days and try to decide on a decent banning list.
All cards currently on the banned list, plus:
- Raze
- Force of Will
- Daze
- Thoughtseize
- Duress
- Inquisition of Kozilek
- Wasteland
- Ghost Quarter
- Dark Depths
- Dark Ritual
- Show and Tell
- Burning Inquiry
- Laboratory Maniac
- Chancellor of the Annex
- Reanimate
- Trinisphere
That is plenty of restriction already. Busted interactions will become known soon enough.
Why Force of Will? Seems pretty unplayable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Duress feels pretty safe too.
And again, I'm going to lobby to allow Mental Misstep.
Also, I believe establishing a tiebreaker of 'highest life-total wins in the event of a draw' will reduce the number of draws.
I'm not sure I agree with allowing Duress, but Mental Misstep seems fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
I agree with Force of Will not needing to be banned, and I like the tiebreaker rule.
I'm not sure that Raze is worth being banned either? Wasteland and Ghost Quarter make sense, but Raze costs two resources to deal with one land, which seems fine. There needs to be some sort of balanced way to deal with lands, no?
Nope. Unless a card is restricted for other reasons, all cards may be played four times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
Force of Will is too good. It just is. The extra card isn't all that relevant if you get to stop (almost) anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Duress is on there because it's not fun, and because Seize and Inquisition are also on there. Besides, we don't need it.
Raze we might be able to allow back in, but it does completely screw almost every slow strategy, which is sad.
I mean, Smallpox is going to have a similar effect to hurting slow strategies. Swamp, Lotus Petal, Small Pox, Nether Spirit probably wrecks most decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
What's an oppressive 4-card combo with FoW?
FoW
Blue Card
Presumably a land
A one-mana threat?
Either they counter your threat and can't protect theirs from your removal (and lose because they paid 1 life), or they protect their threat and have to hope it's bigger than yours...
Duress can only take a card that is enabling something broken. Lands and creatures are pretty fair.
Smallpox might actually be banworthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
But I sense adversion against many bannings.
So you guys would like FoW, Duress and Raze to stay in?
We could try the format with them and re-evaluate after a few rounds.
I would prefer that! It's not like anyone has to own cards, and it appears each 'tournament' occurs pretty rapidly once the deck lists are revealed. Should be easy to spot offenders and take action based on results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I'm getting pretty psyched for this honestly.
Island
Shelldock Isle
Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn
Sphinx of Foresight
The storage lands seem really broken in this format.
Cavern Harpy
Parasitic Strix
Aluren
Hollow Trees/Rushwood Grove
Dwarven Hold/Mercadian Bazaar
Sneak Attack
Emrakul
Chancellor of the Annex
1 more:
Icatian Store/ Fountain of Cho
Maze of Ith
Chancellor of the Annex
Misstep
I don't think it would be oppressive, but I was thinking something cute like:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
Force of Will
Misthollow Griffin
Saprazzan Skerry
City of Traitors
Or something like that.
Just call it.
If something is broken it'll be 12-1 and you can ban it next week.
Enough thinktanking, let's throw down!
Burning Inquiry seems busted too
Mountain
Burning Inquiry
Chancellor of the Annex
Memnite/Rootwalla or any other 0 mana 1/1
e: didn't realize it was already banned.
I think if burning Inquiry is out it's a little easier to brew. I'd also consider banning chalice, since this format is even more defined by 0-drops (lotus petal) and 1-drops; meaning it insta-gibs most plays; which is mostly viable because you banned wasteland. There are counters to the City/Chalice decks however without wasteland:
Damping Sphere
Crystal Vein
2 Mishra's Factory
beats the Nether Shadow decks by being able to block and attack through 2/2s (play CV first, don't play sphere, play factorys as you go after that so that you can't lose a factory)
beats Hanni's chalice OTP and OTD by deterministically keeping TKS off the table and just attacking with a 2/2
I think it beats the Kird Ape deck: If they raze first, they can't bolt a factory > Kird ape. If they Bolt first, you can make Factory a 4/4 in response, trading with ape. No line can beat both factories.
___
Another reasonable one is
Leyline of Vitality
Lotus Petal
Sheltered Valley
Bitterblossom
which chumps anything while slowly gaining life, minus T1 land destruction; but loses to the big tramplers. Loses OTP to Hanni's chalice though (as do all Lotus petal or 1-drop strategies..), I think it beats the Damping Sphere deck by waiting until you have 2-3 tokens, and just chumping every turn while flying in a couple damager per turn.
if you unban wasteland and swap Valley for Wasteland however it draw's Hanni's deck OTD and beats Heavyweights in either direction; while also beating the Kird-Ape deck, other blossom decks, (1/2s, life is static) and can probably race tramplers who are ~4/4 or so.
____
If chalice was banned the new Retofitter foundry + factories + (something) would be pretty difficult to beat. It'd have the benefits of Factories, the benefits of unlimited tokens, and could make 4/4s if games went long. If wasteland was unbanned, I think it can also beat Hanni's and Heavyweights
Retrofitter Foundry
Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
_____
Main findings being that Factory is pretty good; getting under chalice and beating most things. You usually want 2 though so you can attack as a 3/3 to break ties or block as a 4/4, as well as absorb multiple removal spells. Token producers seem good as long as you can shut off high-mana decks via Sphere or Wasteland; but you
Cards start in your hand, I already tried this! You need a way to get Emrakul back into your library.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkusjones
I agree with PirateKing, lets throw this down! I'm pretty interested in seeing what happens.
Keeping wasteland/ gq banned really makes maze of ith an issue
Only if your WC is a single creatureQuote:
Originally Posted by apple713
All of my ideas would do just fine against Maze
"I have an idea, but it auto-loses to XYZ strategy"
Well, welcome to the game; let's go!
Could we get the updated banlist on the OP?
I think this one is pretty strong too:
Mox Sapphire
Chancellor of the Annex
Lodestone Golem
Mishra's Workshop
This is also an argument to keep wasteland though (and thoughtseize, and similar)Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
For example, my Factory decks survive Thoughtseize just fine and my blossom deck survives wasteland just fine.
3x led
Increasing devotion.
keldon megaliths
maze of ith
r/x storageland
electrickery/volcanic fallout/some other answer/ sweeper
Where do we post decks? is the ban-list a lock?
Is this a Vintage format or a Legacy one? I see people saying Mental fuckup is not on the list, but no shit, it's banned in Legacy. So it need not be on the list if your already limited to the format.
If your able to play to the Vintage list, well, why not just play on TMD?
Why does it have to be either?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Gives you the base list and tone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
The most broken thing you can do with a Legacy pile likely includes Lotus Petal. Vintage is a very different beast. Totally shifts the tone.
For now, most here have assumed we're on Legacy, and I'm expecting to stick to that for season one.
We could move to Vintage for season 2 if people want (with updated banning list - Lotus and Workshop are too much for sure).
Or season 2 will be the banathon I hinted at earlier. We can discuss that during the first season.
I will update the first posts with a new banning list with a few fewer cards, and some more explanation.
When I'm ready, I will PM myself my first deck, and then post here with the start of the first season.
PS. I am at work right now, so this may take a while. I have to do everything during breaks.
You don't post your deck. You PM it to the organizer (me) after he has PM'ed himself his own deck and announced the next round.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallen_Empire
(This because otherwise people can complain that I cheated by meta'ing based on the decks I received).
After the deadline has passed (and when I find the time), I will post all participating decks in this thread, and we can start figuring out scores.
And no, we will update the banning list as we go. Might unban more after we start, might ban a few obnoxious things along the way.
The consensus seems to be that people want less banned cards, and interventions only when proven necessary.
But the organizer has veto. :cool: :laugh:
Last note: This thing is open for all, and if you haven't made it for round one, you can enter in a later round. You may need to do some catching up, but it's all for fun anyway.
Should we be PM-ing you our list now?
Hey yo, let's go!
SEASON 1, ROUND 1 of Legacy FOUR CARD BLIND has started!
I have PM'ed myself my deck for the round (quickly, it's probably crap, but that's okay).
So... you can all start PM'ing me your submission for the first round.
DEADLINE: Wednesday the 20th of February, at 6:00AM Central European Time. (That's my time. Just send me the deck Tuesday evening latest, you'll be fine).
PLEASE NOTE:
I have extensively updated the first posts. Be mindful of:
- The way you send your deck to me, so it doesn't cost me an hour of editing before I can post all the decks I receive.
- The updated banning list. I dropped a few cards, but there's still quite the pile of banned stuff!
(Yes, the list is open for discussion. No, not for round 1, and probably also not for round 2. We'll see how it goes first.)
After the deadline has passed, I will post all decks on the forum here, and you can start puzzling out your scores.
I took a week per round. I hope I can keep it up, otherwise we may need to go to one round per two weeks, or I may need help from others here.
I will try to start round 2 quickly after decks for round 1 are posted, but I can't promise anything, because I also need time to design my own deck.
And I have a job and stuff. :tongue:
If you have any questions, please read the first two posts of this thread first. If you can't find the answer there, drop a message here. We'll answer a.s.a.p.
Happy deck designing everybody!
EDIT: First decks are coming in. :smile:
This is going well! So far, we have 11 participants. :smile:
Two more have tried, but sent in illegal decks.
Check the banned list, please. It's in the 2nd post.
Sorry about that, new entry sent inQuote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I wasn't going to name any names, but... :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by JackaBo
And we're at 12 people. I've added the user names to the ranking in the first post.
When the first round decks are up, we'll figure out who wins what, and I'll adjust the ranking when all scores are cross-checked.
can we ban unburial rites?
Maybe in a few rounds. Let's see what round one does first.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Forbidden Orchard
Illness in the Ranks
Ancient Tomb
Goblin Sharpshooter
On a more serious note:
Foil
Island
Nether Spirit
Vengeful Pharaoh
Great example of a deck that looks really good on paper, but is actually not so good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox
The main reason: what do you do when your opponent decides not to play anything?
Also, it loses to Mishra's Factory + other land, and Taiga, 3x Kird Ape.
So when you sport this deck, all you can expect is draws and losses.
Just submitted a deck that almost certainly sucks, yolo
Man, it can't suck more than mine :)
But look at it this way: with the examples posted in this thread, people have seen that some decks are going to be strong. So they will metagame it. And it's probable that your crappy deck will be good vs their deck.
Mine is stupid and will loose to non sense like small pox. but it will probably win vs any deck that try to beat smallpox decks :)
Wow, this is going much better than I had hoped for!
We're at 17 participants already, and the submissions aren't even open for 24 hours yet.
Thanks for joining, everybody. :smile:
If you fear your deck is bad, don't worry. After a few rounds you'll get the hang of it.
And even the better 4CB players will sometimes just get wrecked by clever meta anticipation.