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That's pretty interesting. I worry a bit that it doesn't have enough of an immediate impact though. The turns where you don't have an extra mana to charge it up make it 2 turns away from producing even 1 could be rough. Cool suggestion though! I'd never really looked at that card before.Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise
Yeah RS is way better than it looks. Resolving Echo with one in play is usually enough to win, since you can almost always filter your hand enough to play 6 rocks and echo again, or simply find Burning Wish for a lethal tendrils without even worrying about Song. Glad you're testing it out! Excited to hear how it goes. Just hopped into another league and starting it off 2-0. Crossing my fingers that I can 5-0 with this so we can get on the leaderboard with it :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Yeah, a Mox it isn’t. I’ve played it in some metalcraft decks, and the worst-case scenario of it being a 0cc artifact with no text sometimes happens when your mana is tight. But I’ve never seen a list that makes better use of that worst-case scenario than yours, with Opal, Emry, Riddlesmith, and Song. And in the best-case scenario it fits the deck like a glove: You’re trying to resolve a three-color, four-mana card (often on turn 2, I’m guessing) and you’re not doing much that’s meaningful until you do, and when you do it’s the last turn of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiFunn
What's the purpose of Ovalchase Daredevil? Is it just to provide another angle of attack and keep restocking if you misfire, or is there something I'm not seeing?
Riddlesmith interactionQuote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
@SamuraiFunn nice deck and good job!
Have you been happy with emry and can you explain it's role in the deck?
Do you ever fizzle out with song of creation? When i tried it in this kind of deck i had some problems where i had to use my fast mana to cast it, and after paying 4 mana i would not have mana to cast more of the expensive spells so i had to pass the turn. And if my next top deck then was a land i felt very far behind. This ofc comes up with riddlesmith as well, but you don't have to discard your hand eot with that :) I guess an active emry really helps there.
And finally, what would you say are the best/worst matchups?
It turns Riddlesmith into "draw a card".Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
You cast a 0cc artifact. Riddlesmith triggers. You draw a card, then discard Ovalchase. The 0cc artifact ETBs, triggering Ovalchase to return to hand.
He has Entomb to find 1-of Ovalchase when he has Riddlesmith resolved. I like that better because Ovalchase is terribad without Riddlesmith. He can also mill into it with Emry.
Pretty sure the 4th Chrome Mox is better than the 1st Jeweled Amulet. You can imprint nothing for a 0cc artifact with no text. If you imprint, it's a reusable mana source with no tempo loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise
The tempo cost to charge Amulet hurts. My list needs mana to cantrip or cast Grid. His doesn't cantrip, but still has many early plays like Riddlesmith, Emry, Narset, Wish and Echo. Neither build needs to rush Turn 2 Song.
What expensive spells do you need after Song? The chain is mostly 0-1cc spells, maybe a Riddlesmith, and then Burning Wish to win. Other cards are blanks, which means a lot of it is having the right ratios in the deck build and using tools to filter your draws.Quote:
Originally Posted by JosefK
I've tested 50+ games by now (~50% win rate against tier 1 decks) and even more goldfishes. The fizzle rate is very low, but the sequencing is not always easy. I've had to pass the turn after paying extra mana for Spell Pierce/Daze/Veil or getting a draw Stifled, but not undisrupted. It might take some practice to get used to the patterns.
One trick is to not use all your fast mana. Sandbag 1-2 0cc artifacts (especially LED, Bauble, 2nd Opal). Both Riddlesmith and Song reward you for having artifacts in hand, so you shouldn't be playing them all out when you can convert them into free cards instead.
Another trick is to abuse LED and the stack. Stack draw triggers, then crack LED in response. Black Lotus should be enough mana.
Beyond that, his build abuses LED+Echo to restock with cheap spells. Mine uses cantrips to filter everything that's not a 0-1cc. Sticking Riddlesmith after Song lets you draw 3 per artifact and filter out lands.
What i mean is, say i cast song turn 2 with 2 baubles left in my hand, cast one bauble, draw narset + riddlesmith, cast the other bauble, see land and song of creation. Then you have to pass the turn and discard your hand. My question was how often this happens in his build. I've tried a similar build but gave up on song because i lost to many games where i got stuck hellbent.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Ok, you mean what if variance causes you to draw duds. That's a good question. The deck needs a coherent strategy for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by JosefK
Our builds handle it in different ways.
My build: don't run as many 2-3cc cards and use cantrips to filter draws
His build: use Riddlesmith + Song together to get more draw power, or use LED + Echo to reset hand
Samurai can better speak to his build. He also has redundant engines so you can fizzle, try next turn and fizzle, then try again. I've fizzled more often with his, but he knows it better.
I'll post an example of mine. The cantrips & LED synergize together to do silly things, so that I end up stuck hellbent maybe 5% or less. I am also more conservative with how fast I drop Song.
Here are some examples of combo turns, sequencing to avoid fizzling.
Opponent: RUG Delver
Build: Xerox version with Riddlesmith&Bauble
(Long attrition war backed by cantrips. T2 Riddlesmith Bolted. T3 Grid Forced, Force back but countered by 2nd Force. Then Song #1 countered by Spell Pierce. Grid #2 countered by 3rd Force. Finally resolved Song #2 before dying to Delver).
Hand: Brainstorm, Opal, LED.
Board: Island, Mountain, Forest, Tropical
1. Song (using all 4 lands)
2. LED. Draw 2 -> fetch, Song.
Fetch Volcanic (2nd land drop).
I'm down to my last mana and 0cc spell, so I do a stack trick with LED and Brainstorm to optimize chance of not fizzling
3. Opal. Draw trigger. Hold priority
4. Brainstorm (using Volcanic). Draw trigger. Hold priority.
Crack LED for UUU (discard last card = Song) <- discard dud and draw 5 with UUU. Any 0cc or cantrip lets me keep going
1st draw trigger -> Island, fetch
brainstorm resolves -> Petal, fetch, Bauble. Put back 2 lands.
2nd draw trigger -> same 2 lands
5. Petal. Draw 2 -> Bauble, fetch
6. Bauble. Draw 2 -> Petal, Riddlesmith
7. Riddlesmith (using Opal + U). Draw 2 -> Riddlesmith, LED
8. Petal. Draw 3 -> Bauble, Opal, fetch. Discard land.
9. Opal. Draw 3 -> Ponder, Mox, land. Discard land.
10. LED. Draw 3 -> Bauble, FoW, Wish. Discard land.
11. Chrome. Draw 3 -> LED, Chrome, Land. Discard land. Imprint Riddle.
12. LED. Draw 3 -> Land, FoW, Wish. Discard land.
13. Wish (using Opal + U). Crack LEDs for BBBRRR. Draw 2 -> Wish, Petal. Wish for Tendrils.
14. Petal. Draw 3 -> Grid, FoW, Opal. Discard Opal.
15. Grid (using Chrome & Petal). Draw 3 -> Brainstorm, Ponder, Riddlesmith. Discard Riddle.
16. Tendrils (pay BBRR) for 16 copies. Draw 2 trigger.
6 cards left, behind Grid & FoW backup
I used LED for early mana, then Riddlesmith let me draw extra to dig deeper.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Build: Xerox with Veil&Preordain instead of Riddlesmith&Bauble
(Turn 4 OTD, turn before death to turn 1 flipped Delver)
Hand: (Tarn, Ponder, Opal, Wish, Petal, Song, Veil)
Board: Island, Island, Mountain, Forest
1. Petal
2. Song (using 4 lands).
Opponent Dazes.
4. Veil (using Petal). Resolves, countering Daze. Draw 1 -> fetch
Play Tarn.
5. Opal. Draw 2 -> Petal, land
6. Petal. Draw 2 -> Veil, song
7. Ponder (fetching for Volcanic). Draw 2 -> LED, land
Ponder resolves: see BS, FoW, land. Draw BS.
8. LED. Draw 2 -> FoW, land
Out of 0cc artifacts. Down to 2 mana (Opal, Petal). To minimize fizzling, I stack to see the most cards with LED mana floating
9. Brainstorm (using Opal). Stack draw. Hold priority.
10. FoW it (pitch Song). Stack draw. Hold priority.
11. Veil (using Petal). Stack draw. Hold priority.
Crack LED for UUU (discard 4 lands + Wish) <--- dig 10 cards deep to find more gas with UUU floating!!!
1st Draw 2 -> LED, brainstorm
Veil resolves. Draw 1 -> FoW
2nd Draw 2 -> Preordain, Preordain
12. FoW the FoW (pitch Preordain). Draw 2 -> Wish, LED <-- lol make that 12 cards
FoW fizzles (due to Veil)
FoW#2 fizzles
Last Draw 2 (from BS) -> land, FoW
Brainstorm resolves: Draw land, Petal, Grid. put back 2 lands.
13. LED. Draw 2 -> same 2 lands
14. LED. Draw 2 -> Opal, Preordain
15. Opal. Draw 2 -> Ponder, Opal
16. Petal. Draw 2 -> land, Chrome Mox
17. Chrome Mox. Draw 2 -> Wish, Song. Imprint Song.
18. Opal (floating R from other Opal). Draw 2 -> Opal, Taiga
19. Grid (using UU). Draw 2 -> Chrome Mox, Grid
20. Wish (using UR). Stack draw. Hold priority.
Crack LEDs for RRRBBB. Draw 2 -> Grid, LED.
Wish for Tendrils or Grapeshot.
21. Tendrils/Grape for 21 copies.
Does that help?
Most spells are 0-1 cc. Stack tricks enable you to see more cards before putting back with Brainstorm and to use LED mana.
Also I went off with 4 lands. Vs Delver decks I play slow with basics and Grid to play around mana denial and counters. Vs combo you may have to go faster, but there's also FoW and Veil to disrupt them.
Yep, Emry is an absolute powerhouse. The deck actually has relatively few high-impact cards to play on t1, since it plays no 1-drops and only Riddlesmith at 2 cmc (not counting Burning Wish here, since it's a late game play). Even though we have an abundance of artifact ramp, you generally would rather play your artifact ramp after resolving Riddlesmith so that you can benefit from the draw triggers. Emery changes that sequencing math, since you'll be able to play stuff from your yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by JosefK
To get a sense of how powerful Emry is, consider this sequence:
t1 - land, opal, bauble, Emry
t2 - land, LED
You now have access to 9 mana on turn 2. If you have Echo in hand (or if Emry milled one), you can tap opal, crack LED, Replay LED w/Emry, and echo with 5 mana floating (enough for a Song and 6 other cards).
This line is insane and I try to set it up whenever I can. If you find yourself in this spot, remember to make U off the first LED and R off the second (leave yourself with UUR after casting Echo) so that any green source will allow you to resolve Song after wheeling.
Often times we cast every spell in our entire hand just to finally end with a Song in play. In those moments having that one extra spell from Emry is super helpful to begin going off after that.
Finally, in the fair matchups Emry will singlehandedly run away with the game if not answered immediately. The threat of drawing 2 cards per turn with Emry + Bauble makes it a must-answer for blue decks. In this way, Emry often baits out countermagic that would otherwise be used on Song, Echo, Narset, or Teferi.
"Fizzling" happens sometimes, but it's pretty rare. If I don't have a Riddlesmith in play, I'll usually try to land one shortly after Song. 20/60 of our cards are 0 mana artifacts, which basically makes a ration of 1/3 deterministic. With that said, I've never lost a game in which I resolved song of creation. Even when you need to land it and pass the turn, the draw power is so signification that it has always been enough to just bury the opponent in the card advantage the next turn. Baubles really help to keep you in the game here, because if you have to pass with just lands, a song, and 1 bauble, there's a high likelihood that at least 1 of the next 2 cards you draw on the following turn will not be a land, which should be enough to start the chain. Also, discarding Echo at the end of turn to Song is pretty sweet too :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by JosefK
So, right now my match record in league+challenge matches since adding Burning Wish is 57/28, so a match-win record of 67%. I haven't had a chance to distill all the match data, but Maverick is always a bit scary because they can GSZ for Ouphe, as well as all the Thalia/Deafening Silence type stuff that slows us down. Red Prison and D&T can be tricky as well. With that said, I'm very happy with the current wish-board and think we have all the tools we need to fight back against these decks. Also, we can just win on t1 pretty consistently if we know we're not facing down Force of Will :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by JosefK
I really love Burning Wish in decks like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiFunn
Have you considered Massacre for decks like Maverick and D&T, since you actually run USea?
Yeah i think in a version with fow like you are playing you can afford to be more conservative. In the current meta without fow i feel you have to go pretty fast before someone drops a karn, GSZ for ouphe, or just kill you/lock you down. So i'm mostly interested in SamuraiFunns build as that's closer to what i've been playing before.
Oooh, I really like that. Going to test it out for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Thanks for all the answers! I did join a league with your list now and started out with a win vs reanimator and win vs depths but lost vs grixis control (pyroblast, snap pyro felt really tough to beat). Deck felt good, but i did miss defense grids or veils or something vs control. Also i had some times where i wished there where anything to wish for to advance my gameplan after i already wished for echo once. I only resolved song twice, but won both times (it really was win more one of the times, i already had 3 riddlesmiths and both daredevils and i almost lost because song is not a may trigger :) I probably misplayed a lot, fetched the wrong duals etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiFunn
When do you board in chalice, and what do you cut?
Yeah, I am playing more control-combo, using protection and Wishboard to answer their cards. FoW is very strong because it both protects the combo and then acts as 0-mana spell to draw 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by JosefK
The strategy worked very well with Breach and Bant Zirda, and is how a lot of other combos work too (SneakShow, OmniTell, High Tide, Thought Lash). The plan is to be more interactive at card parity, investing fewer cards in the engine (to avoid blowouts to disruption). Then Song is a 1-card win button.
Because I sculpt and play for card parity, there's usually gas to support Song. That's why the fizzle rate is low. If I had to dump my hand to play T2 Song I could see more fizzles happening, or having to scoop to FoW. If I need to race and have explosive mana, Wish + LED -> Empty is another line.
For a faster build without FoW, you might as well be explosive with Echo of Eons. Samurai's build does that. If you float mana through Echo, you can cast Song if it's in your new 7 and then win. The build I posted on page 1 (Rite of Flame, Wish, Echo, Gamble) does that too and has more T1-T2 goldfishes. Echo is a big part of that. The drawback is if you get Echo countered, you're hellbent. And sometimes Echo gives the opponent a grip of answers. I started with the explosive plan but was getting blown out by counters so I switched.
Playing around decking is important. Riddlesmith is a "may", so when you're down to the last 15ish cards you may want to stop using Riddlesmith. Wish and Tendrils trigger Song draws before Tendrils copies resolve, just remember that!Quote:
Originally Posted by JosefK
Another out to decking (especially if you need Grapeshot instead of Tendrils) is to LED+Echo to reshuffle your graveyard. Good to have a spare LED and Echo set up just in case.
I tried out my old more explosive build. It was better than I thought.
It wins much faster against non-FoW decks.
Against FoW decks it's more vulnerable, but it can board into Hopes and maindeck Empty like TES does.
//Artifacts: 18
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
3 Mox Opal
3 Defense Grid
//Enchantments: 4
4 Song of Creation
//Spells: 23
4 Brainstorm
4 Gamble
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
4 Burning Wish
3 Echo of Eons
//Lands: 15
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
1 Mountain
//Sideboard: 15
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Echo of Eons
1 Reverent Silence
1 Pulverize
1 Pyroclasm
1 Grapeshot
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Hope of Ghirapur
To test both racing and resilience I tested against Burn and UR Delver.
vs Burn (8/10)
1) T2 Win OTD (natural Tendrils x10)
2) Loss OTD (Had T2 Song, but Eidolon forced me to Wish for Pyroclasm first, then too slow)
3) T1 Win OTP (Echo into Song, Grapeshotx22)
4) Loss OTP (T2 Gamble bricked @ 20% to miss. T3 Echo bricked)
5) T2 Win OTD (Song into Tendrilsx20)
6) T2 Win OTP. T1 Echo. T2 Song. (Tendrilsx14)
7) T2 Win OTD T1 Echo into Song, pass the turn. (Tendrilsx11)
8) T2 Win OTD. T1 Echo into Song, pass (Wish for Pyroclasm on Eidolon, Tendrilsx14)
9) T3 Win OTD. T2 Song, pass. T3 Brainstorm into gas (Tendrilsx20)
10) T3 Win OTP. T2 Echo, Grid. T3 Song (Tendrilsx20)
Won 80% T1-T3
Beat T2 Eidolon 1/2 times
vs UR Delver (7/10)
1) Lost to FoW+Daze+2x Waste and bricked on Gamble
2) T3 Win. (T1 Grid eats FoW, then Echo into Grid. T3 Song)
3) T3 Win. (T2 Song Forced. T3 Echo into Song (pay for Daze))
4) T3 Win with Song.
5) T3 Win. (Grid through double Daze, Echo into Tendrilsx15)
6) T6 Win. (T2 Grid Forced. T4 Song Forced. T5 Wish Forced. T6 Song resolved!! Brainstorm into gas)
7) T4 Win. (T2 Grid, T4 Song)
8) Lost to 2x Waste after resolving Grid, couldn't cast Song
9) Lost to 2x Force, Waste. Empty for 14 Goblins was 1 turn too slow.
10) T3 Win (T2 Echo into Song, pass. T3 Grid, Echo, win)
Won 70%
Force in 5/10, won 3 of them (This build had 5x Force, 4x Daze, but no Spell Pierce main, more aggro focused)
Played around Daze
I underestimated the power of speed. It's much riskier playing without FoW and with Gamble, but it's explosive.
Nice!
I finished the league today with losses vs omnishow and some post/eldrazi deck. The omnishow match did not tell me anything, opponent had extremly strong draws for the matchup. The post match was easy preboard, postboard was a lot harder with chalice on 0, trinisphere leyline.
My main takeaways from the league:
1) I like song of creation, esp that it does not care about the graveyard and also not care about the spells actually resolving to draw cards in comparison to ovalchase daredevil that needs the artifacts to hit play so chalice on 0 is rough.
2) I'm no big emry fan, i had one match where it was really good (with bauble recursion), and while it did _some_ work in other matches it did not feel like the best card in that slot for me. But if you like Emry i would probably test with some number of Jeskai Ascendancy. It's a more expensive riddlesmith that wins the game if you have emry in play.
3) I never cast a chalice, but i like it in theory as it stops very many problematic cards post board, almost all of them :) It almost felt like i wanted to board it in vs all decks except other chalice decks.
4) i think i would play pulverize and empty the warrens in the sideboard.
So my next step will probably be to add some songs to my riddlesmith deck and test that.
Especially postboard, I've been using Empty a lot as plan B, like TES does. It gives the deck more legs when you can't stick an engine or just need to go off fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by JosefK
I like Pulverize because I find the deck tight on mana, although it's really awkward vs 3sphere.
What's your SB strategy for Post?Quote:
The post match was easy preboard, postboard was a lot harder with chalice on 0, trinisphere leyline.
I'd consider just boarding out Ovalchase and other graveyard heavy stuff (Entomb?), ignoring Leyline instead of trying to fight it. Then you just need artifact removal instead of needing multiple bounce/Wishes.
Yeah in this league i think i boarded out a emry and an daredevil for two abrades, leaving the shattering spree and R.silcene in the board to wish for.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I finally got an opportunity to test this deck out. I ran a little bit of an outdated version that wasn't running the Riddlesmith combo and really felt like that was a big problem. I played against Elves and Grixis Delver. In the Elves match up I noticed that the times I lost I either A) didn't draw a Song, or B) was about to go off next turn. None of our games lasted past turn 4. In the Grixis match up I think I made a mistake sideboarding as I ended up decking myself trying to find Burning Wish. A few take-aways:
- Carpet of Flowers is REALLY good against fair blue decks.
- If Song resolves, storm count doesn't really matter.
- I found myself preferring Ponder\Preordain while comboing, and was more than not pitching Brainstorm to FoW
- I never found myself fetching Taiga, and almost always needed blue for more cantrips.
I did a little tuning afterwards and this is the list I came up with. I still want to squeeze in 2-3 Chain of Vapor, but haven't decided what to cut to do so. I think Chain would really help the deck as it can pick up your 0cc drops, enemy Thalias, or Song if you might deck yourself. I think that Echo of Eons is a good MD card as it allows you to recycle your graveyard once you've gone through it once already, plus it ups our "threat" count as (in my goldfishing) you seemed to have a pretty good chance to find another Echo or to find Song. This list probably also wants the 4th Veil of Summer.
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Prismatic Vista
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Mox Opal
3 Chrome Mox
2 Defense Grid
4 Song of Creation
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Preordain
3 Veil of Summer
2 Burning Wish
3 Echo of Eons
Sideboard
2+ Carpet of Flowers
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Echo of Eons
Glad you got to test it out!
Without stack tricks I go for Preordain before Ponder because it's better at filtering out lands in the top cards. Ponder can dig deeper, but if you see 1 0cc and 2 duds then you're forced to keep the 2 duds on top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemon
During the combo I use Brainstorm in three main situations:
1) as an instant, to respond to other draw triggers (e.g. to stack a bunch of draws then pop LED for mana)
2) with a fetch, to put back 2 unwanted cards (Song gives 2nd land drop)
3) to hide a card on top so I can pop LEDs for mana, draw into it, and cast it with that mana
The stack tricks with LED+Brainstorm go a long way to solving mana bottlenecks and mitigating risk from unlucky draws.
Good point. I never use Taiga unless there's nothing else to fetch.Quote:
- I never found myself fetching Taiga, and almost always needed blue for more cantrips.
No question that Echo improves goldfishing. I've been on the fence about how it performs vs interactive opponents.Quote:
I think that Echo of Eons is a good MD card as it allows you to recycle your graveyard once you've gone through it once already, plus it ups our "threat" count as (in my goldfishing)
The risk seems worth it in the explosive builds (T1-T2), but I don't know about the Xerox build. You have to discard your hand to LED before putting Echo on the stack... If it doesn't resolve, you basically lose the game. If it does, they get a full grip of disruption to fight through. It's a very all-in plan for a build that tries to be grindier. Counters like FoW are weak with Echo, while shields like Defense Grid and Hope of Ghirapur are better. Echo's also safer on T1 or T2, when they haven't had time to deploy their initial hand and don't have mana open to cast spells with the new 7. The longer the game goes, the more opponent can use those extra cards.
Maybe this is why you're concerned about decking.Quote:
2 Burning Wish
I strongly recommend going to 3-4 Wish:
-During the combo, more Wishes means you don't have to dig so deep to win
-During the combo, extra Wishes function as decking protection: Wish for Echo to put back your graveyard (useful if you need a big Grapeshot)
-Postboard Wish is very strong against permanent-based hate (Chalice, Defeaning Silence, hatebears, etc)
-Pre-combo, Wish functions as copies of Echo to draw you into gas
-Wish offers plan B of Empty the Warrens when you don't draw Song. I've even cast natural Tendrils for lethal without any engine.
Once I started abusing Burning Wish more, the deck didn't feel short on gas.
Ran another 50 matches or so with the deck and feel like I'm getting closer to the optimal 75. Took it to a 4-3 finish at the last Challenge, with 1 of the losses being to a regrettable misplay.
Challenge List: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/visual/3150803
As much as I loved Teferi and Entomb, I feel like the addition of White and Black spells is a bit too greedy on an already stretched manabase. Veil of Summer largely fills the same role as Teferi, and the fact that it only costs 1 cmc is super relevant as well. Also the times when you lead with Veil, to pave the way for an LED/Echo sequence puts you very far ahead to win, since you can Echo into Song without worrying that they find FoW of the Draw 7. Early testing with it is feeling really really good. The downsides are that we'd need to cut chalice, which actually might be for the best because we really want our Wishboard to be as low CMC as possible, so now 1-drops like Carpet of Flowers, Chain Lightning, and Void Snare are all back on the menu. I also cut an Ovalchase Daredevil because you really only ever want to see 1, and that's been feeling like the right number.
I'd like to find room for 1 more Tormod's Crypt if possible. But other than that, I think we're getting very, very close.
Cutting down to 3 colors seems more stable.
Should the Blazing Volley be Pyroclasm? Volley is easier on the mana, but it only answers narrower things (Thalia, Revoker, Elves, tokens). Pyroclasm kills hate pieces like Collector Ouphe, Gaddock Teeg, and Eidolon of the Great Revel.
Defense Grid is a version of Teferi that's easier on the mana and synergizes with the artifact engine. It's been very strong in all my games. It protects Echo, making the draw 7 very strong. Unlike Veil you can cast it the turn before to spread out mana. Veil+Song needs 1RUGG in one turn, which can be much harder against mana denial strategies.
Hope of Ghirapur is another SB option. Like Grid, it lets you spend the mana on a previous turn and it protects you under Echo. They can't cast the new spells on your turn, or even on their turn! Hope also combos with Emry to lock them out of noncreature spells. (They can use instant creature removal, but counterspells, sorceries, enchantments, artifacts and planeswalkers are locked out). It's also an artifact.
Keep in mind Veil still leaves you open to some relevant interaction from their new 7 cards. Stuff like Red Elemental Blast on resolved Song, Lightning Bolt on Riddlesmith, Nature's Claim/Force of Vigor/Disenchant on Song, Terminus on Riddlesmiths, etc. Grid and Hope just lock out everything.
What were your wins and losses in the Challenge? That might help guide what the SB needs.
Volley actually started as Pyroclasm, but I hit a few situations where I couldn't resolve the 2 cmc spell. You're right that it might be a bit too narrow. I'm probably biased towards this card because I once cleared 2 revokers and a thalia with it, wiped an elves players board another time, and cleared an unflipped delver, Young Pyromancer and 6 tokens that were threatening lethal all in one go. But I think you're correct that any creature removal in the board should be able to handle at least a 2 toughness creature. I think I'm going to give Forked Bolt a shot since it can hit two things, can clear ouphe, and can pressure a Narset or Karn as well if needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I love DG, and agree that it's a totally reasonable card to play. With all the Oko running around, it might not be positioned as well as it used to be, but it's definitely very powerful and worth keeping in the back pocket if the meta moves away from Elks a bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Great call, I had actually forgotten about Hope. I love the interaction with Emry, and like that it gives an additional metalcraft boost to Opal and Riddlesmith. I worry that it's a bit more narrow than Veil, but gonna run a league with this and see how it feels.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Looks like Delver and Reanimator need some help. I'm currently 3:6 against RUG delver and 0-2 against Reanimator since the time I started tracking.
Empty the Warrens maybe?
Yeah I strongly recommend at least 1 Empty in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiFunn
My builds were tweaked to have ~50% matchups against Delver. Probably at the expense of other matchups, but that's one matchup I have grinded dozens of games.
My explosive build (Echo, Gamble, Rite) does it by leaning on the Empty plan. Empty turns Burning Wish into a wincon without an engine. That turns every Song, every Echo, and every Wish into a must-counter. You can try to just overload their disruption. I push the Empty plan one step further by running 4 Empty the Warrens SB, then boarding in +3 Empty vs decks like Delver. That makes it 14 win buttons (Song, Echo, Wish, Empty), with some immune to FoW! It's an old trick from TES. The drawback is it eats up SB space. You may not need the full 4 Empty. Even 1 should be an improvement.
My slower build does it with FoW+Veil+Grid, a higher land count, cantrips, and Carpet of Flowers postboard. It plays a different gameplan of maintaining resource parity and trading with their disruption. That's less relevant to your deck.
Ok cool, I'll try it out and see how it feels. Meanwhile, a couple updates: Finally got the 5-0 trophy! Hilariously, I accidentally submitted an experimental list I was toying with that had 4x Chalice in the SB along with a bunch of 1-drops and 2x Veil in the main. Surprisingly, Chalice never actually prevented me from resolving any spells. Even so, I don't think it's the optimal build but it shows how much raw potential the concept has.
Also, got another 2 losses to Reanimator, making my tracked record 0-4 :frown: I think the maverick / dnt matchup has gotten good enough to where I can shave Forked Bolt, since we're still covering Ouphe etc with 2x abrade, 1x Chain Lightning, and 1x Void Snare. Going to try swapping it out for another Tormod's Crypt in the SB, and I actually think the 5th bauble in the Main can be 1x Crypt as well. Seems odd to have crypt main, but there's enough decks out there that use the gy that I think it could actually increase our percentage against the field, more than it would decrease our percentage in games that the 5th bauble would have otherwise won. Will test it out and report back. For now, here's the most current list I'm on:
3 Echo of Eons
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Burning Wish
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Narset, Parter of Veils
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Riddlesmith
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ovalchase Daredevil
3 Chrome Mox
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Veil of Summer
4 Song of Creation
2 Tropical Island
1 Taiga
2 Volcanic Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tormod's Crypt
4 Mox Opal
1 Shattering Spree
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Grapeshot
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Reverent Silence
1 Void Snare
1 Echo of Eons
2 Abrade
1 Veil of Summer
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chain Lightning
Just realized we could potentially Burning Wish for Reanimate LOL. It wouldn't save us from Entomb lines, but it would work off of Faithless and natural discard. This seems like it's worth testing for sure.
Lol the 1-of Reanimate might be worth it. You can also use it to Wish for Riddlesmith (Reanimate a dead Riddlesmith).
Is Surgical Extraction or Noxious Revival better than the 3rd Crypt? I'm not convinced Crypt is that good against BR Reanimator. They can do too much at instant speed or by winning die rolls. Surgical is good in other matchups too. Noxious can be used to recycle dead pieces in fair matches, or to troll their reanimation. Both are "free" spells for Song.
Noxious Revival is such a good idea! I'd never thought about that interaction with Reanimator before. Going to try that out as the 1x main, and maybe 1x side as well. Surgical is super strong as well. I prioritized crypt because of all the artifact synergy.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Deck continues to feel super solid. Just picked up another 4-1, narrowly missing the trophy in match 5 against Esper Vial. They were super close fun games, and the match definitely could have gone either way.
Ugh. Just lost match 1 game 3 of the challenge today to Delver because of the Underground Sea. Was R short of casting shattering spree on Null rod. Think we got too cute there with Reanimate. Going to revert back to temur and swap the reanimate for Dwell on the Past, which basically serves the same function.
Didn't realize you were adding USea for the SB trick instead of just casting it off mana rocks. 4 colors is much weaker against mana denial decks like RUG Delver, yeah.
Do you even need a Wish target for BR Reanimator? They go off very fast. How often will a 3 mana line (Wish into 1 cmc target off lands) be relevant? Either you'll need earlier interaction, or you should just go for the throat and try to win. If it's midgame and you want to Wish for something to disrupt their graveyard, just get Echo of Eons. Dwell seems too weak to justify a spot.
How was Noxious Revival?
So, the exact situation that came up vs reanimator was this:Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
- I have 2 fetches and a chrome mox. I play a fetch and pass.
- They faithless on the draw, pitching griselbrand and pass.
- I play my 2nd fetch, but have no source of black despite having ramp enough to Wish + Reanimate :(
You're right though that we can't stretch into a 4th color. Every fetchland matters; our manabase needs to be flawless.
TBH I couldn't figure out what to cut for the Noxious Revival. I don't want to drop below 20 artifacts to make sure Opal + Emery hit as much as possible, and every other card in the main feels critical. We could potentially try it instead of 3x surgicals in the SB, but I worry it won't be as impactful as Surgical, since they could potentially just flash back faithless and go off the following turn. Just need to get games in with both, I guess.
If you had Lotus Petal or Mox Opal, Reanimate is castable without USea. If you had Lion's Eye Diamond then you can Wish for Echo (which gets rid of his graveyard too).
In that exact scenario Reanimate is ideal and you'd need a fetchable black to cast it, but I think that's just playing too much into a corner case. Overall having the consistent manabase is more valuable.Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiFunn
Good luck in your next games.
How do the games against reanimator play out? I get that you lose if they are on the play and 'goes off' t1, but other than that?
Losing T1 on the play is somewhat mitigated by switching from Crypt to Surgical. @Samurai: how have your games been since the switch?Quote:
Originally Posted by JosefK
Otherwise it must be similar to TES or any other non-FoW combo deck vs Reanimator. The match is unfavorable because they're more explosive. They can outdraw you and strip your hand. But sometimes you get a good enough hand to race, and sometimes you can Echo them into garbage.
Empty lines seem weak. On the other hand, they incur so much lifeloss that natural Tendrils/Grapeshot are viable lines of play. This makes me wonder if we should forget Reanimate and just save Wish hoping to mise a win after they go down to 6. They won't always hit enough Unmasks. For example, LED + Petal/Mox + Burning Wish (off 2 lands) into Tendrils is 8 damage on turn 2. You can also pre-emptively fire a non-lethal Tendrils just to shut off Reanimate or deny them a Griselbrand draw 7. That could be enough tempo to race. If you can make them stumble a few turns, we just need to resolve Song or Narset-Echo lock them to go nuts.
The riddlesmith deck had a really good reanimator matchup (one of it's best matchups), so i'm a bit surprised. But that deck had multiple bouncespells and the play of gamble for karakas after BR put an Iona on blue, so that might be the difference.
If you look at the history of it i started with 2 crypt 2 faerie macabre 1 silent gravestone but the longer i played it the more i cut graveyard hate as it just was not needed.
Karakas was a very good card in that deck as an answer to Thalia, teeg, and big monsters. But i do think it's a bit to random without any way to tutor for it, even if it has kind of nice emry interaction.
You're the original creator of the Riddlestorm deck? That's super cool, I've always loved RS but you're the first person I ever saw pair it with Ovalchase Daredevil. Thank you for the idea! It really adds a lot to the song of creation deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by JosefK
I got a bit distracted by the Vintage Cube and didn't have a chance to test it out yet :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW