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It solves some problems, and nobody would suspect you of cutting bridge for Depths, its utter lunacy, lol. The real question becomes: does it solve fundamental problems? If it does, it's worth it.
I may just play Crop Rotation + utility lands anyways, depths or not, in the board. Lands are another colorless avenue that makes Stirrings better.
We definitely should run some utility lands even without crop rotation (although crop rotation could be a fine include). Wasteland isn't that good this meta anyways so we can maybe(?) expect the see less of it (the usual D&T crowd is probably going to continue running headfirst at Snowko anyways, but ah well).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I think it does solve the fundamental problem of being a win button. It also seems like it slots in the best with our shell. That being said, I do still think that painter/stone and maybe even some sort of self-mill are still avenues worth exploring, even if they don't look quite as promising (although I think painter-stone at least is definitely worth some testing).
If you test painter/stone, just keep an eye on sequencing. Painter makes all cards, even lands, colored. Stirrings will be a brick after Painter is on the battlefield.
Yeah, I definitely don't think I'd play it until I'm confident that I have the win.
So I think this is what I would do for a transformational setup:
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Crop Rotation
1x Sejiri Steppe
3x Vampire Hexmage
Out: -4 Bridge, -4 Wasteland, -2 Bitterblossom, -1 Meekstone, -1 Cursed Scroll, -2 Ghoulcaller's Bell, -1
In: +4 Depths, +4 Stage, +3 Rotation, +1 Steppe, +4 Hexmage
That's a full swap of the 15. Depending on matchup, the Hymns could stay in the sideboard and I could keep in some number of Wasteland/Bitterblossom. I think against the 4C control matchups I would do the full swap. Against Yorion Miracles I would keep in the Bitterblossoms and instead cut some number of Dark Rituals. With this setup I would want to incorporate at least 2 copies of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth maindeck to enable the combo easier. I am favoring Stage at 4 copies, HExmage at 3 because Stirrings finds the lands but not the creature. I think Wishclaw Talisman is a pretty safe tutor in this instance, especially if players aren't expecting Depths. They will likely have sideboarded out/not sideboarded in any outs to Marit Lage. I'm kind of excited for this, it can be a way to combat matchups where Bridge isn't ideal but a fast combo would be. I'm not really losing any functional effects, I'm just losing the option to change the control package slightly to accommodate the matchup.
Lands would be: -1 Swamp, -1 Forest, +2 Urborg. I don't know if I would cut a Wasteland or not, seeing as how Pithing Needle will name Wasteland fairly often. Karakas out of D&T comes to mind, but there is no way I'm cutting Bridge in that matchup. The overall setup is way too good against their deck, Bridge stopping attacks and Ashiok preventing Recruiter shenanigans. Decay and Scroll do a ton of work against problematic cards also.
This comes to mind:
https://media1.tenor.com/images/3b94...itemid=3465196
Here’s another (probably bad) idea: run Lingering Souls (you’d cut Bitterblossom, for starters). One Karakas likely belongs in the deck anyway, and if you run Opals, that’s some extra sources of white; a single white dual would round out your white sources. But Plan A isn’t to cast Lingering Souls from your hand. Plan A is to mill it with Ghoulcaller’s Bell or Codex Shredder and cast it from the graveyard at your leisure. If you see it on top with Lantern or Sylvan, just mill it and keep going through your deck for control/prison cards. That way, you never actually spend a card on your win condition. Plan B is to cast both the front half and the back half, and that’s not a terrible for a Plan B.
That seems pretty reasonable to me. Lingering Souls are a lot less life-total dependant than Bitterblossom, I really like that. I have gotten to the point in games where Bitterblossom wasn't fast enough to win games. Stabilizing at a low life total is pretty common with this deck. Lingering Souls does solve quite a bit of that conundrum, but I'm still at the impasse with Mox Opal. There just isn't enough low-risk artifacts to feed the deck. Once I start adding stuff like Mishra's Bauble (necessary for Opals I think) there is just too much air and not enough business. I could go through all those hoops and still wouldn't be able to do t1 Ashiok, which is by far one of the most powerful avenues of the deck. Cutting Opal was one of the most freeing parts of developing this deck: it opened up non-artifact avenues of supporting Lantern/Bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise
Sure, that makes sense. I hadn’t realized that you’d settled on Dark Ritual over Mox Opal. Still, the duals+fetches configuration ought to be flexible enough for a white card you don’t need to cast in the first couple of turns. One could also try the WBG triome. Of course, that means only that one could include Lingering Souls, not that it would be optimal to do so.
If you splash white, Kaya, Orzhov Usurper could possibly do a lot in this deck. She can do grave hate, life gain, and removal all on her own, and she’s great friends with Bridge and Ashiok. She’s a wincon that can help in a tight spot as well as in a good spot. It’s possible that her abilities are too narrow, though, or that she’s too fragile for the cost.
Not sure I want a 3rd color. I actually nabbed a couple more Cursed Scrolls, thinking about dropping the Talismans altogether and just run 3 scrolls. I want higher value finds from Ancient Stirrings. The other place to cut is Bitterblossom, but that card is so good in most matchups.
havne't had a chance to really take a look at this thread before. looks like a really nice iteration of the lantern decks.
is tabernacle an option in this deck? (not that i own one, but in your testing would it have helped in some matchups?)
will be interesting to see what this deck gets from newer cards.
Tabernacle seems good, but I also don't own one. I don't see getting one, either. I may be able to borrow one if a tournament ever happens locally again.
Not sure there are any new cards in core21 for this deck, but I'm definitely keeping an eye out for tech.
Potential inclusion, but it fights for space with Bitterblossom. Having some lifegain is cool, but I don't see any other shrines as being playable in this deck. Likely won't make the cut as Cursed Scroll is a faster clock.
https://www.mtgnexus.com/img/cards/m...g?t=1592231872
Plus Stirrings can't find it. I think Scroll is probably our best md wincon.
Lingering Souls does seem like a nice inclusion if we can find space or decide to splash a third color, splashing W also opens us up to some decent side deck options
I don't think Opals make the cut either, when I was playing a different iteration with Opals + Labe in the main I often found that I had a surplus of mana but not much to do with it.
i didn't see veil of summer come up in this thread. what are the thoughts on being used here, to protect from counterspells, but more importantly to protect bridges from cards like abrupt decay.
I can't believe I forgot about Veil of Summer...very good suggestion! The real questions are whether to run it maindeck, sideboard, and what number to run. It's definitely a card that needs to be included. My gut tells me 3 is probably the right number. I'll fool around with numbers and get it into the primer.
Edit: I updated the primer, put Bitterblossom sideboard and Surgical Extraction maindeck now that I have 3 scrolls to grind out wins. Blossom will be very good, and safer, in control matchups rather than random g1's. Ended up with 2 Veil of Summer in the sideboard, would like to have 3. I'm trying to figure out if I need the Nihil Spellbomb/Grafdiggers cage in the sideboard. With Bridge, Ashiok, and Surgical maindeck I think my Reanimator/Dredge matchup should be fine. It's a little funny that the graveyard matchups are also addressed with Ensnaring Bridge.
thoughts on noxious revival? it can return an abrupt decay, bridge, lantern etc and then on top of it you can ensure their top card is worthless. (nevermind this, i saw it earlier in the thread just now.)
my last suggestion is why not try to be a little greedier on the manabase and run 1 or 2 oko? it solves a lot of issues that abrupt decay is also trying to solve and given the amount of artifacts in the deck it creates hastey guys. no need for that stupid snow artifact either.
I like Oko, a lot actually. The combo of Bridge + Oko is known technology from modern. It pushes me closer to Mox Opal, for obvious reasons, but that is perfectly fine. I would probably just put in a Sultai triome land, fetchable and cyclable if I already cast Oko off Opal. Spire of Industry or even a basic Island would be fine as well. I don't have any blue duals. :frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Regarding Noxious Revival: it wasn't worth the slot. The list is tight, and I have to now jam an Oko (maybe).
Also considering Scroll of Fate + Phyrexian dreadnought in sideboard.
EDIT: Possibly going back to Winter Orb as an option. I'm trying to find enough artifact synergies to make Opal playable to offset the fact that I can't get t1 Ashioks. Opal would still allow me to get Bridge down on turn 2-3, and finding another way to pinch mana (Orb) seems very good alongside Ashiok.
Testing shall commence!
Orb testing was a bust, it could be a sideboard option but I think Choke is better. Opal re-test was similarly dissapointing, back to Dark Ritual.
I nabbed a couple Veil of Summer, debating maindeck or sideboard. If I play them maindeck I think they have to take Duress's slots.
Yeah, Orb wasn't super great when I used it either. It was really great in theory but ultimately players could just hold up lands since we don't really have a fast enough clock to take advantage of it. I feel like if it is run it has to be run with Port and some sort of mana rock (probably Opal) but even then we're still not really doing anything since we're spending our mana to stop our opponent from doing things.
I think Rit vs Opal really just depends on how many artifacts you're willing to shove in the main, it feels like for your build at least running more artifacts for Opal probably isn't worth it.
Veil for Duress seems like a decent swap, although I guess it depends on your local metagame.
I think it will end up duress main, Veil side. My local is fairly blue-light.
I have officially switched to Surgical main, Blossom side. Too many games where it showed up too late to matter. It's a grindy matchup kind of card for 4c/miracles, anything that gives me time to leverage my life total.
As far as attacking mana, Wasteland + Ashiok is very good. Ashiok actually makes the mill plan realistic, too. Once it gets rolling its 5-6 cards a turn, each time taking more out of opponents deck that could get them out of the Bridge or Lantern lock.
I wasn't super big on Bitterblossom to begin with tbh but I haven't really had any experience playing with/against the card so I figured I was probably just understating its value lol. I'd assume that it probably isn't super fantastic if it doesn't show up early in the game, taking it out for Surgicals is probably a good call. I think that Lantern decks should always try to find a way to shove Surgicals in main tbh considering how much synergy we have with it
Agreed. Blossom was, originally, a metagame call to fight the blue-stew dominated scene. It's still very good, in the right matchups.
EDIT: Updated OP list, thinking about Dark Confidant sideboard again.
I would love suggestions for the Burn and Storm matchups. I have a couple ideas, but none seem fantastic. Do I just let the matchup go or do I try and maneuver into 2-3 slots to address them?
Short list:
Witchbane Orb
Lodestone Golem
Damping Sphere
Mindbreak Trap
Dragon's Claw
I'm leaning towards 2x Witchbane Orb. I have Dark Ritual to power it out and Stirrings to find it.
Witchbane looks like probably the best answer out of those, although Damping Sphere also gets bonus points for coming down t2 without dark rit. Dragon Claw is too narrow, don't think I'd side cards for the burn matchup specifically. Mindbreak could be ok. Not sure about Lodestone, being a 4/4 body is nice but does mean burn can potentially out it with a fireblast or something. Not sure if it being a creature comes up in the storm matchup though
Lodestone is 5/3, and would be better against Storm and terrible against Burn. I think Orb is best. The idea behind Lodestone is that most people will board out creature removal. The real issue is they won't ever board out their Okos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sella
In my defense I haven't had my morning coffee yet, hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Yeah, Oko as always will continue to be an issue. The main problem I see is that we don't have much of a clock and the lantern soft-lock isn't super great against past in flames so they'll eventually find an out if we durdle. I guess Lodestone would be nice for the beats, then again they could just go for a Warrens turn and even if we throw down lantern + they have >5 cards in hand they still have a bunch of chump blockers to stall. Not having the win button really hurts in this matchup.
I think with maindeck discard into surgical, plus Ashiok exiling graveyards, Storm isn't an atrocious matchup. We're likely still less than 50% against them pre-board, but post board we get Hymn to Tourach, Veil of Summer to stop Tendrils, Maelstrom Pulse for Warrens, and potentially Engineered Explosives/Ratchet Bomb for Warrens. Wasteland helps keep them off lands if we can slow them down with a Thoughtseize/Duress, Abrupt Decay can deal with Chrome Mox/Opal. There are definitely ways to attack what they are doing, but none of them alone are enough to stop them cold.
So Burn is obviously the worst matchup that I've tested so far. Not only can they just burn us out quickly but Bridge being an artifact lets their sideboard hate come online. Hell, Bridge is known technology for Burn sideboards anyways. This matchup was the primary reason for attempting the Depths sideboard; Burn has a hard time racing Turbo Depths. The other option is to try and leverage something like Witchbane Orb, which has utility against other matchups but is again an artifact that turns on Smash to Smithereens/Abrade. Another idea would be to transition into a Thopter Foundry/Sword of the Meek deck post-board. It doesn't win on the spot, but the lifegain would easily put us out of burn range if allowed to untap. That last line is what makes it sketchy: will they allow you to untap or just unload into a Fireblast and win? Not to mention Sulfuric Vortex is a common strategy for Burn. If I were on Burn, I'd be leaning on Vortex really hard due to Oko.
Another combo to try is Reanimator: sideboard Entomb, Reanimate, and Iona, Shield of Emeria. It couldn't be traditional Reanimator lie with Griselbrand because we could still get burned out. It would have to be Iona to lock Burn out. I can't think of any other reanimate targets that would be worth including, maybe Blightsteel Colossus, Platinum Emperion, or Platinum Angel. I like that Angel is actually hard-castable with Dark Rituals, but I wouldn't rely on that plan too heavily.
So in reality, the options are basically: ignore the matchup and board a couple broad spectrum cards in the sideboard (Orb) or transform into some sort of combo deck in the sideboard to address the Burn matchup along with other problematic matchups.
This is my theoretical Depths sideboard plan:
4x Dark Depths
4x Thespian's Stage
3x Crop Rotation
3x Vampire Hexmage
1x Sejiri Steppe
Maindeck would have this change:
-2 Blooming Marsh
+2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sideboard plan:
-3 Wasteland
-1 Buried Ruin
-4 Ensnaring Bridge
-2 Cursed Scroll
-3 Ashiok, Dream Render
-2 Ghoulcaller's Bell
EDIT: A sideboard plan of 4x Lotus Petal, 4x Cabal Ritual, 4x Manamorphose, 3x Tendrils of Agony could also be spicy. There isn't any synergy with Ancient Stirrings so it's likely worse than Depths, but it's still seems just crazy enough to get the job done.
Forgot about Ashiok. Yeah, Storm seems winnable.
I still really like the Depths sb plan just because it seems funny, but the biggest question for me is what matchups it helps against other than burn. I just don't feel like Burn is a deck worth dedicating sb slots for, but rather that its always good to pick sb cards for other matchups that also help against burn, and honestly burn being our worst matchup is something I can live with. That is of course assuming your locals isn't over-saturated with Burn (I once went to a tourney at a smaller shop and every local player there was on burn, one of the dudes from our shop was on Lands, he got price of progressed like 20 million times. Not a great day for him haha)
Yeah, that's the other option: ignore burn. I can see an argument for playing maindeck Collective Brutality instead of Duress, which has pretty good value against burn, especially if I can turn dead cards into a 3-fold effect (gain 2, kill a Guide, take a burn spell.) It has pretty good potential against a lot of other decks, too. I think I'll find a way to get CB into the maindeck and then find a couple reasonable options for 2-3 sideboard slots that address burn but have other applications.
Good reasoning, I love your feedback!
Brutality is good, I definitely like the flexibility.
The most important card in the deck is Bridge, so I need to find a way to either duplicate its effect or play a tutor that gets it. Talisman is too risky without Ashiok, Scheming Symmetry is only good of I have a mill rock, Infernal Tutor needs me to be hellbent, and Dark Petition costs 5 mana. I do like that Petition, if its live, gives me the mana to play Bridge. That's where I will start. Petiton also gets me Lantern, which is the 2nd most important card. It would be nice to have another way to make Dark Ritual relevant in the late game.
The deck is great, and very consistent, but it has a few crucial cards it needs to see every game. Then again, most of my testing has been against Delver, which I expect to be one of the more common decks I face along with Snoko. That could be affecting my perspective
I think you're on to something with Brutality. There were a lot of instances when I was testing my old pox-focused list where I'd find myself casting Thoughtseizes for no reason just so mana dorks couldn't slip under Bridge. Brutality is a good card by itself anyways and doubling as a discard outlet is icing on the cake.
The importance of Lantern/Bridge really comes down to the matchup. I don't care much about seeing Lantern right away vs. a deck like Show and Tell since if you land a bridge that's pretty much game anyways (at least in g1). Same deal with reanimator, just gotta slam t1 dark rit + bridge and hold a Surgical for Tidespout Tyrant.
If we aren't seeing our pieces consistently enough and have to add more searchers petition could be decent. If we do go with petition I feel like we have to prioritize mulling for lantern over bridge since seeing bridge later is usually fine while in most fair matchups we pretty much always want to have lantern + mill rock down t2. Getting mana back does mitigate the cost once we actually cast it, being able to petition into bridge is pretty nice, but the main thing I'd watch for in testing is how often the mana cost comes up - not coming down until t3-5 could be a bit problematic with some hands (although it could come down earlier if we open something silly like double dark rit). Plus using dark rit to cast it means that's mana we're not spending for something like t1 Ashiok. So I guess that leads me back to my prior conclusion that it's pretty much a bridge searcher, which might not be too big a deal since bridge coming down t5 is probably fast enough most matchups.
How's Delver testing been? I'd imagine that we have a decent matchup into them as long as we see Lantern and mill rocks since we can manipulate their topdeck to stop delver from flipping until we find a bridge or Ashiok to sweeten the deal, but playing against Delver isn't always as simple as I wish it was haha. Same with Snowko, I had real trouble the last time I played that matchup, but I feel like my old list was just badly tuned for it since my mana denial (which my list was heavily leaning on) just didn't do as much as I hoped against it (same deal with that uw yorion deck that draws 20 million cards). Another matchup I'm really curious/worried about is D&T. They have a lot of tools maindeck and even more in the sideboard. I feel like if they stick a t1 vial and we don't have the Pithing Needle on hand for it that's probably a loss in and of itself.
I have found that the Delver matchup is decent, but they can still just tempo us out of the game with a t1 Delver backed up by Daze/Force. It's one of the biggest reasons I ended up adding the 2nd Library, we need a critical mass of must-answer threats against them. If we stumble at all it gives them a window to cast cantrips and race before we can land bridge.
Death and Taxes doesn't seem too difficult, honestly. They have no answers to Bridge in the maindeck, we have Dark Ritual to power through Thalia, and then they are locked out with Bridge. Their mana-disruption is a little annoying, but we have Pithing Needle and Wasteland for Ports and enough basic lands to work around their Wastelands. The only real problem is Flickerwisp phasing out Bridge for a few turns to attack. However, their clock isn't incredibly fast so it won't happen in one turn, unless it's super late game. If it's that late in the game Lantern-lock should keep them off Flickerwisp. Ashiok also prevents their Stoneforge and Recruiter toolboxes, so we actually have some decent tools for that matchup. Sideboard they bring in Disenchant or Council's Judgment, which is still not that worrisome considering their lack of cantrips. I haven't tested this matchup yet, but I'm not really that worried about it. Pithing Needle on Vial is definitely one avenue to slow them down, but it's not as good as just playing out our hand into a Bridge. I don't see how they beat Bridge g1 without Flickerwisp.
The great part about this deck is that you really only need to worry about a few specific interactions. A ton of information flows through the turns, but only some of it really matters. Once you land Bridge you just need to keep them from removing it, which makes the Lantern plan so powerful. It snowballs into an unwinnable position for opponents so you just need to find a way to win (mill or Scroll.) I've been mentally drafting a matchup write-up, which lays out the specific cards you need to deal with.
I'm really looking for this ideal situation
T1 - Thoughtseize, Lantern, Stirrings
T2- Dark Ritual into Bridge/Ashiok, Sylvan Library, Abrupt Decay, Collective Brutality, Lantern + Millrock
T3- Bridge, Maelstrom Pulse, Ashiok
T4+ = play out my cards, find a Scroll or enough mill-rocks/Ashiok to finish them off
Regarding Dark Petition: it makes mid-late game Dark Rituals better while also being pretty good early if enabled with Rituals. I think it's the most feasible and will be my next test. Wishclaw was ok, just dangerous without Ashiok.
Fair point about Taxes, I guess I'm just biased because I'm used to somehow losing to them even when I really shouldn't lol. I'll be looking forwards to a possible matchup write-up, I haven't really had much time to test so most of my matchup knowledge is just theory
Mine is just goldfishing, lol, so mostly theoretical as well. It can always be updated once I get some real testing in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sella
I played your list through a MTGO league because I used to play Lantern in Modern a lot and wanted to give it a try.
Unfortunately, the 'Lantern engine' Lantern+Mill rocks was not able to control either 1) density of cantrips in blue decks 2) tutor effects/library manipulation from Goblins and Food Chain 3) Oko and Teferi that both deal with Bridge or the Lantern lock very easily, backed up by countermagic or blink effects. Yes you have discard, Needles and Ashiok, but it never seemed enough because there's a bunch of mill rocks that don't help there.
I'd imagine that other typical decks such as Delver (aggro + counters/Oko) or Maverick (tutors and hate) would be just as hard.
Although I won the round vs SneakShow due to the high amount of good cards vs that deck, I lost all my other matches (Goblins, Snowko, Lands, Food Chain) and it wasn't really close.
I wish the Lantern shell could compete in Legacy, but I wouldn't hold my hopes up.
Yuck!
Thanks for the feedback, I really appreciate it. Without any real experience the list was 100% theoretical. If Bridge can't get the job done, the deck is dead. I think the main reason it was so good in Modern is because Bridge was fundamentally a lock against so many decks. In the newer era of Oko and Teferi, it seems riskier. I could play a full set of Pithing Needle, which would help offset some of your matchups. I don't think that would be enough though, if it's that bad.
What do you think about re-tooling into a blue-deck like the earlier posts of the thread? Maybe even something with Urza.
That was always my skepticism of Lantern Control making it in Legacy, and it looks like your testing validated that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
Legacy just has better cantrips and tutors to break the lock, so even when you have everything assembled the potential ceiling is lower than what it can do in Modern. Then there's also FoW, Daze, Chalice and Oko to just break the combo. Modern is a creature-heavier format that basically can't beat Ensnaring Bridge as long as you can stop them from drawing some specific cards.
I wonder if it would work better in a blue shell with Teferi, Time Raveler to lock the opponent out of instant-speed interactions and/or Narset, Parter of Veils to stop card draw.
Lantern-Echo
//Artifacts: 20
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
3 Mox Opal
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Codex Shredder
2 Ghoulcaller's Bell
//Planeswalkers: 8
4 Narset, Parter of Veils
4 Karn, the Great Creator
//Creatures: 7
4 Emry, Lurker of the Loch
3 Urza, Lord High Artificer
//Spells: 8
4 Force of Will
4 Echo of Eons
//Lands: 17
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Seat of the Synod
8 Snow-Covered Island
//Karnboard: 6
1 Mycosynth Lattice
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Liquimetal Coating
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Walking Ballista
Emry has natural synergy with the mill rocks as a source of recursion and card advantage. Echo also has synergy with mill rocks.
Both Bridge and any other janky artifact tools (Needle, extra mill rocks) get better when you can hide them in the SB with Karn.
Maybe splash white for Teferi, Time Raveler and Auriok Salvagers, or green for Oko, Thief of Crowns and Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath (and Arcum's Astrolabe).
Edit: Oops, already suggested something like this on the 1st page and you don't want to play blue.