I submitted and won Brian Coval’s brewing contest with this deck.
Thanks for everyone’s help, check out how it does in a week or so.
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I submitted and won Brian Coval’s brewing contest with this deck.
Thanks for everyone’s help, check out how it does in a week or so.
A new history of Benalia was spoiled. This may be better than court of grace due to its higher floor (removal + guaranteed 4/4) even if its ceiling is not as insane.
https://i.redd.it/j239y1n176b61.jpg
As a maindeck card for your list I agree this _might_ be better than court of grace, I would test it
I mean, this could be history of Benalia 5-6. It's a bit heavy on the mana though.
EDIT: Could this be a wincon in a Wb Pillow-fort deck?
In pillow fort court of grace just seems better due to the inherent synergy with island sanctuary, moat, and Solitary confinementQuote:
Originally Posted by aedemiel
The reason to play this would be the synergy with aminatou (instant 8 power), 2 turn clock with any blink effect, and less risky to play out from behind (immediate blocker, Extra removal vs delayed blocker, possibility of losing the monarch)
Vs Benalia this has several advantages but I can’t be certain it’s worth the extra mana. Flying 4/4s vs 2 2/2s seems attractive vs Marit Lage, bolt, delver, plague engineer, gy decks, dha, elves, and elks.
First, congrats on winning that contest. The list you submitted looks a lot tighter than the earlier versions, more streamlined, without giving up the unique blink engine. Do you have a link to the video where he played it?
I'm not sold on this new card. The floor is just a 4/4 token.
Removal isn't guaranteed because the token has to actually survive for parts II and III to do anything. In a vacuum, this card may not do much. The failcase is spending 4 mana to create 1 token that trades with a 1-2 mana removal spell or turns into an Elk. The ceiling is good, but the floor is a 1WWB Serra Angel.
The ceiling kicks in with Aminatou. If you can blink it on your mainphase, then you get 2 4/4s right away, then you kill stuff, then you can keep making 4/4s and winning. That seems pretty good. Does Court of Grace do almost as much though, with less set up? The card draw is pretty big.
Estrid's Invocation is a bit awkward with it. It'll make a 4/4 on your upkeep, but then it goes to II on your mainphase and your token won't have haste, so you miss out on the removal ability. Estrid works better with History of Benalia, making two 2/2s a turn.
I think the main reason History was good in other formats is having one card that produces at least 2 bodies, so your opponent is not trading 1-for-1 with it easily. 2/2s looks bad against Elks, but you make 2/2s at a much faster rate than they can make Elks, so you can threaten to go wide or just beat through with the +2/+1.
Thanks for the advice you gave me! He records well in advance so it’s recorded but not posted rn.
The floor is indeed a 4/4 vs removal and without engines. What is answering the Serra angel though? If it’s an oko court without estrids is suicide. If they have arcanist double bolt I’m just dead with court in that situation. Vs vial plow decks introducing monarch is risky. The angel is naturally protected from coatl. Worst case is probably Snowko plows it but I am winning that mu with entreat anyways. VS uninteractive deck this does 12 damage by the time court has done 4, and doesn’t just straight up lose to EoT coatl or fetch a dryad.
Grace is way better with estrids, ahead, or vs creatureless decks,, but this has more synergy with aminatou/Yorion/3 feri and is better when behind or needing to clock.
I’m not sure it’s better but I think it’s worth testing.
Edit: I do want to try to fit a few etutors into the md. Do you think even without dedicated targets it’s better than preordain just for the CB synergy? Additionally what do you think on mystical dispute vs spell Pierce? It’s better vs fair blue and Urza echo, and ups your CB 3 cmc blind flip % for free. Several games the opponent immediately conceded to a blind flip oko counter.
Yeah it might be worth testing the split to see how it does. Getting a guaranteed body is nice when you're behind. Either way, I think 3 Court of Grace is too risky if you can't reliably defend the Monarch, so it may be that a split of these is better.
What kills the 4/4? At 1-2 mana:
Swords to Plowshares
Fatal Push
Bloodchief's Thirst
Abrupt Decay
Drown in the Loch
Brazen Borrower
Terminus
Dismember
Engineered Explosives
Assassin's Trophy
Stingscourger
Munitions Expert
Echoing Truth
Liliana's Triumph
At higher mana:
Flickerwisp
Skyclave Apparition
Barrin, Tolarian Archmage
Oko, Thief of Crowns
Teferi, Time Raveler
Liliana of the Veil
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
It's a 0 cmc token. It dies to any bounce, edict effect, or low cmc removal. That doesn't mean its not worth playing, but I think it is worth considering how easy it is to neutralize the token and leave the other 2 abilities dead in the water. Court wouldn't necessarily be better there if you're behind. Maybe History would? Or something different altogether.
Edit: No, I think the earlier discussion was right, ETutor is probably not right here. You're playing a control game with an incremental value engine so card disadvantage is bad for you. It's a cool trick to do with counterbalance, countering any spell at instant speed for 1 mana while also getting a useful card, but that's not enough reason to play it.
I do think ETutor is an underrated card, but I also use it exclusively in unfair decks where the card you get more than makes up for the card disadvantage. Tutoring for a 1-for-1 (Trial, Detention Sphere, Omen) leaves you behind in the game. I use ETutor for cards like
Energy Field
Serenity
Helm of Obedience
Underworld Breach
Necropotence
Mystical Dispute seems good if you have SB room. I would not run it main. Fair blue is rampant, but a significant chunk of the meta is still nonblue. As for the counterbalance blind flips, you control that by controlling your curve. Dispute doesn't necessarily fix that more than any other card would. I guess it does let you cheat in more 3 cmcs because it functionally costs 1 so it won't hurt your mana. But cards like Force of Negation and Brazen Borrower accomplish that too.
Great points. I agree that with so many flash flyers and haste elks terminus isn’t as foolproof at defending the monarch as it used to be. So I can’t support multiple courts without etutor and moat to compliment it.
I do want to have more than 3 actual wincons though. Maybe just replace the reality acid with the saga and split pierces 3/1 with a dispute and call it a day.
FTW has correctly identified that the problem with the 1WWB saga is that it's easy to exploit the fact it can be just a 4 mana Serra Angel
History has the a similar problem in this deck in the sense that it doesn't really have any synergy with the rest of what you are doing
What this deck really wants is a nonlegendary Oath of Kaya
I don't like E-Tutor maindeck in a deck that isn't assembling some big combo (Rip helm maybe, this kind of thing) because against efficient decks like RUG you need all of your cards to be effective and E-tutoring for a card and having it get countered is a pretty backbreaking way to 2-for-1 yourself
Ok, I could buy that it’s too risky to turn on opponents removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Etutors have moved back to the SB just to increase hate density vs unfair decks.
I realized I want a few 2 drops for sanctuary plus counterbalance reasons. Could Dovin’s Veto replace spell Pierce? It does what I want spell Pierce to do (answer some big t3 haymaker like oko OTD through daze)
This is fine, I like maindeck veto in uw sharkstillQuote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
There is also a new card:
The Raven's Warning 1WU
Enchantment - Saga
I: Create a 1/1 blue flying bird token and gain 2 life
II: Whenever 1 or more creatures you control with flying deal combat damage to a player this turn, look at that player's hand and draw a card
III: You may put a card you own from outside the game on top of your library
Pretty interesting
- Less mana than the 1WWB Angel one but has similar main drawback in that if you lose the token to e.g. Plow then the rest of the card becomes much less effective
- Lifegain on the first stage is pretty good
- Flying token -> moat
- 3rd stage can be used as a way to find those tutor targets g1, can also do stuff like stack a terminus on top of your library or get a replenish/sevinnes to return this saga for value, set up counterbalance etc
Has the usual Wish problem that it makes SB decisions confusing i.e. are you supposed to board your cards in so you can draw them (or E tutor for them) or leave them in the SB to wish for.
The smaller size and damage clause makes this a lot worse vs coatl, bolt, or even flipped delver.
Also creatures earlier down the curve makes terminus more awkward. The wish is really interesting with an entreat the angels though.
I could see this functioning but I think you would want to drop the miracle package for bitterblossom (lifegain covers the weakness of BB and guaranteed flyers covers the dies to bolt weakness of this)
boshnroll finally posted the league
It went extremely well for a brew, and he enjoyed the games immensely.
Props: estrids, Yorion, reality acid, and Aminatou
Slops: spell Pierce, few generic answers to pw, entreat.
Counterbalance performed way better than any other post top deck but he still wasnt super stoked about it.
Not sure what the best way to deal with the pyroblast problem is though.
Fixed hyperlink
It seemed that the blink engines were the best part of the deck and the miracles part was the most iffy. Perhaps cutting the miracles/cb/sanctuary package for a most focused tappout/blink list would be better. That would probably require going from UWb with pierces to UBw with discard. I probably have to lose plow to the sideboard to not have double off colour t1, but Bloodchief’s thirst could help with the pw removal problem.
Yeah this is probably true I think, I was dreaming it's like a History with other upside but it needs more flying support to be a decent card because otherwise by itself it's too easy for the opponent to unravel it with 1 removal/blockerQuote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Jotting down thoughts from my own matches, the league and above:
- Miracles/sanctuary/CB package was not horrible, but it introduces more low floor cards and has tension with the sorcery speed rest of the deck. Moat seems like the best option to deal with the lack of boardwipes if I cut terminus (vs fair decks I have enough spot removal, and vs elves/gaak/goblins it is better than terminus after t3 anyways).
- The ceiling on the deck (Yorion plus aminatou blinking everything each turn) is already great and can hang with uro/library. I should concentrate on quicker interaction and high floor cards.
- Spell Pierce is hard to hold up early and is bad late. -> discard. 3feri raises the floor on late game discard considerably.
- I need 1 cmc interaction that is decent vs pyroblast but I want to tap out -> discard
- I can only choose one of: double off colour t1, mystic sanctuary, lots of basics. The third option is probably the best. Due the above, I need to become base UB instead of base UW.
- Estrids is the lowest floor 3 drop engine and baleful strix is the highest floor 2 drop blink target. I should probably switch CB/estrids for strix / 3feri.
- Many clunky PW answers are better than a few clean PW answers vs the 6 forces 4 pyro decks. Bloodchief’s Thirst seems pretty good then to supplement strix/Oath/discard. It’s Weaknesses compared to plow are big or flash threats. Extra Karakas solves the former, discard/3feri deals with the latter.
- None of the 3 cmc generic answer blink targets like dsphere are great, so I might as well fit the highest floor etutor targets in that slot. 3feri solves most of the nonPW threats you would want councils judgment for anyways in combination with discard.
- I want my grindy gy cards in the same matchups as gy hate -> cut hall/sevinnes.
List:
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flats
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Bloodchief’s Thirst
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Arcum’s Astrolabe
4 Omen of the Sea
4 Trial of Ambition
4 Baleful Strix
4 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
4 Teferi, Time Raveler
1 Moat
1 Disinformation Campaign
1 Reality Acid
2 Court of Grace
1 Oath of Kaya
4 Force of Will
2 Force of Negation
4 Enlightened tutor
1 Yorion
1 Torpor Orb
2 Force of Negation
1 Damping Sphere
3 Rest In Peace
1 Stoney Silence
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
This deck has a pretty cohesive plan of just tap out for a bunch of interactive spells and then use Yorion to go over the top. This isn’t too different from Snowko plans of force everything, resolve library/Uro, but is both more interesting and better vs combo (hate permanents plus discard plus counters are much better than just a stack of counters).
Mana might look a bit weird but my best T1 plays are all black, not blue. Souces (basic/non basic, not including cantrips/labe):
- B 14/4, recommend 19.
- U 11/7, recommend 19.
- 2W 8/9, recommend 15
- UWB 18/8, recommend 30.
- 2WW 8/9, recommend 21.
Strix plus oath seem like the lowest opportunity cost way to deal with both low loyalty planeswalkers and the surgical court problem.
Thoughts @kombatkiwi, @FTW, @Fox, or others?
Sounds goodQuote:
Miracles/sanctuary/CB package was not horrible, but it introduces more low floor cards and has tension with the sorcery speed rest of the deck. Moat seems like the best option to deal with the lack of boardwipes if I cut terminus (vs fair decks I have enough spot removal, and vs elves/gaak/goblins it is better than terminus after t3 anyways).
I would be careful about this because Omen of the Sea and the Edict enchantment are pretty clunky on their own by legacy standards and without Estrids Invo I am less sure if you have enough support to justify them. (I'm not categorically stating your new build is wrong in this regard, it's just something I would pay attention to)Quote:
The ceiling on the deck (Yorion plus aminatou blinking everything each turn) is already great and can hang with uro/library. I should concentrate on quicker interaction and high floor cards.
Yes I don't think this deck applies enough pressure to justify pierce and the Teferi point is also relevantQuote:
Spell Pierce is hard to hold up early and is bad late. -> discard. 3feri raises the floor on late game discard considerably.
OkQuote:
I need 1 cmc interaction that is decent vs pyroblast but I want to tap out -> discard
Idk how to figure out a manabase for an animatou deck I'm not going to look at this and will just assume you know what you are doingQuote:
I can only choose one of: double off colour t1, mystic sanctuary, lots of basics. The third option is probably the best. Due the above, I need to become base UB instead of base UW.
Estrids has the lowest floor but also the highest ceiling, similar to my previous comment about this cut I would just try to be careful that you aren't making yourself too vulnerable to e.g. Oko by building the deck like this (i.e. if all your value engine are monarch/pw related then protecting them from elk might be hard and there aren't too many ways to deal with Oko. Again this is not something I am confident is a definite flaw but I would pay attention)Quote:
Estrids is the lowest floor 3 drop engine and baleful strix is the highest floor 2 drop blink target. I should probably switch CB/estrids for strix / 3feri.
I think this is probably fine logic, main concern would be Lage/Uro but like you say you have the triple karakasQuote:
Many clunky PW answers are better than a few clean PW answers vs the 6 forces 4 pyro decks. Bloodchief’s Thirst seems pretty good then to supplement strix/Oath/discard. It’s Weaknesses compared to plow are big or flash threats. Extra Karakas solves the former, discard/3feri deals with the latter.
I'm actually not sure if Reality Acid is a better maindeck card than Dsphere here but it's interesting to think aboutQuote:
None of the 3 cmc generic answer blink targets like dsphere are great, so I might as well fit the highest floor etutor targets in that slot. 3feri solves most of the nonPW threats you would want councils judgment for anyways in combination with discard.
makes senseQuote:
I want my grindy gy cards in the same matchups as gy hate -> cut hall/sevinnes.
These are good comments. It’s true that if I don’t put enough payoff cards in the deck, my setup cards get weaker. The problem with estrids is that labe and strix are much better than the 3rd best cheap etb enchantment, which creates a risk of it being dead. Courts were iffy with the double white and up the vulnerablility to being behind on board as mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
Aminatou plus Yorion is where I go over the top of the opponent; so I tried a version focused around assembling that. That still justifies the clunky permanents and but Yorion and 3feri have higher floors. The deck feels very clean, and has a clear game plan of play a bunch of interactive permanents, cast an uncounterable Yorion, win. Dsphere was clunky, so I tried md gy hate (cling) but that conflicted with post board rips. I’m going to try Kaya Orzhov usurper. Additional wincon, lifegain, synergy instead of anti synergy with rip, nice with aminatou, keeps oko/uro/chalice under control.
Etutor/discard continues to make the unfair matchups really good, giving you a reason to play this over snow. Thoughtseize plus rip just wrecked oops hands that would destroy Snowko (like spy, pact of negation, xantid swarm).
Elspeth's Nightmare to be tested in the “blink target that is decent vs decks that don’t care about trial” slot. Compared to reality acid or disinformation campaign it interacts better vs arcanist/Uro/oko. The deck is very mana hungry so I added More lands.
List:
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Snow-Covered Island
3 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Bloodchief’s Thirst
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Arcum’s Astrolabe
4 Omen of the Sea
4 Trial of Ambition
4 Baleful Strix
4 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
3 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Yorion
2 Kaya, Orzhov Usurper
1 Elspeth’s Nightmare
4 Force of Will
2 Force of Negation
4 Enlightened tutor
1 Yorion
1 Torpor Orb
1 Force of Negation
1 Damping Sphere
1 Rest In Peace
1 Engineered Plague
1 Moat
1 Graffdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Mystical Dispute
Mana might look a bit weird but my best T1 plays are all black, not blue. Souces (basic/non basic, not including cantrips/labe):
- B 13/9, recommend 19.
- U 13/9, recommend 19.
- 2W 9/7, recommend 15
- UWB 19/6, recommend 30.
Looking at md answers to common legacy threats:
T2 spell combo kill: 6 counters, 8-12 t1 cantrips, 6 discard.
Uro: 2 Kaya, 1 nightmare, 1 Karakas. Repeatable removal.
Arcanist: gy hate above plus 12 2 cmc or less removal.
Oko: discard, thirst, Kaya.
Chalice: 3 Teferi, 2 Kaya, sometimes discard.
Marit Lage: 1 Karakas, 7 flying blockers into 9 sorcery speed answers.
Pyroblast: 3 cavern of souls, 6 discard.
I watched this league and it was a blast!Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
I agree that the blink engine seemed strong and the strongest interaction is resetting teferi to bounce and draw for three turns.
I think CB is okay in this deck. I noticed a lot of times where he wouldnt sac omen to scry and instead blind flip. I guess he was saving them for Yorion
I think you have to be kind of active to utilize CB and build you own top via omen, bs, ponder with teferi, sac omen, fetchlands, aminatou. I think you have to settle for that cb is a one sided chalice most of the times.
Moat seems like a good addition. I’ve like Kaya, Usurper in other esper lists. It’s great vs snoko killing food/elk and exiling uro.
Edit i like your latest list. Going the value route is probably correct.
Continued testing. Etutor plus discard continues to be great against unfair decks. Yorion plus cavern has been strong vs blue soup. Got to beat Bryant cook by trading my Stoney silence for 2 of his carpets with aminatou. Kaya did perform quite well vs chalice, delivers, and elks.
The major problem I had has been lack of lifetotal pressure if Yorion gets plowed and I can’t resolve Kaya. Lost several matches to time.
Elspeth was too slow without fast mana and 2 md Yorion are probably too many.
Trial plus aminatou has been quite strong and can hold off oko/uro for a while until I can draw into answers. Because of the above three points, perhaps I should try 2 Oath of Liliana instead of Elspeth/yorion? Nonveilable trials for aminatou, and a non plow/pyroblastable/attachable clock. They also chump haste elks nicely. It also makes free value while doing the 3feri/aminatou thing.
I inspired more qualified miracles pilots to 3-1 yesterday’s prelim. The list was less janky than mine: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EsvhN3xX...jpg&name=small
Continuing with my more janky UBx control build, My favourite card was estrids invocation but with strix it didn’t have consistent enough enablers. Planeswalkers were strong but without terminus it was difficult to keep them alive even with all the spot removal and strix. I stumbled upon sarcomancy. It is the closest 1 cmc enchantment to being worth a card on etb, provides a clock, provides people pressure, helps with the hasty elk problem, and turns aminatou/estrids into Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Between that and on thin iceI can have 12-16 enchantments that are 0.5 mana or less overpriced, making estrids invocation consistent at minimal cost. This fixes the find and resolve one of your 8 2 drops problem estrids has, and makes it less vulnerable to removal in response.
In testing the 2/2s were good blockers vs rabble masters and pressured narset well. On thin ice has downsides vs Marit Lage, Flickerwisp, and flash threats, but being able to reset to higher priority threats (Thassa oracle in scry 2 mode to a lord of Atlantis vs merfolk) was an upside. Detention sphere lets estrids blink astrolabes/yorion/aminatou with a turn delay which is something nice I hadn’t realized.
Here is a list based on the 1 cmc enchantments to consistently enable estrids. Previously the mix of 2 drops and 1 drops made the curve awkward so This list has tried to max on the 1 drops to enable double spelling on t2.
Witches cottage is an idea because yorion is guaranteed to eat a fow/pyro, whereas we don’t have a ton of great instants to recur. Fetchable/basic black is an improvement on cavern in a non strix deck.
4 Prismatic Vista
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
1 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Witches Cottage
1 Karakas
2 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 On Thin Ice
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Arcum’s Astrolabe
4 Omen of the Sea
2 Trial of Ambition
4 Sarcomancy
4 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
4 Estrid’s Invocation
2 Court of Grace
2 Detention Sphere
1 Oath of Kaya
4 Force of Will
3 Force of Negation
4 Enlightened tutor
1 Yorion
1 Nevermore
1 Damping Sphere
1 Rest In Peace
1 Graftdigger’s Cage
1 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing needle
2 Swords to Plowshares
With the list above I got one 5-0! I registered it in the challenge sat. But did terribly. Overall though the win rate is up to around 50%.
A good deal of my wins came from early sarcomancies instead of grinding value. Sarcomancy, Sarcomancy, estrids is actually a faster clock than deliver, delver + ponder, flip x2, bolt. Perhaps I should make the deck a bit closer to a token aggro deck? Aggro instead of durdle makes yorion stronger as flood insurance, improves big mana matchups, and keeps aminatou alive longer. Wrath’s are at an all time low and durdle cards like narset and library are much easier to deal with if you are ahead on board.
Sounds like you have discovered why I like History of Benalia lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
History by itself seemed iffy but if it is on top of additional token aggro stuff it could be good. Not sure how we ever beat elves/goblins other go wide without terminus or flyers.
I like where this deck is going. I’m putting it together for some testing in the near future. Sarcomancy was a sick find!
I think the best direction to go for a tokens list would be an Esper delverblade shell
Compared to delver and SFM, token based threats are a bit lower power but we would be quite resilient to removal and have insane catchup mechanics (estrids or yorion as an army in a can). We don’t need as many spells as delver so we can curve threat into threat, making up for the lower individual power level.
Draft aggro list:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
4 Sarcomancy
4 Intangible Virtue
4 Bitterblossom
2 Legion’s Landing
4 Daze
4 History of Benalia
2 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
4 Estrid’s Invocation
4 Force of Will
2 Force of Negation
4 Enlightened tutor
1 Yorion
1 Torpor Orb
1 Damping Sphere
1 Graftdigger’s Cage
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing needle
1 Detention Sphere.
4 Mystical Dispute
The deck has a lot of 3 drops for a wasteland deck but so does Esper vial which does fine. No catch alls in the 80 card deck, instead we are trying consistency through redundancy. Make a bunch of dudes, kill them. Deck should have an excellent combo my due to having all 4 pillars of combo hate: discard, counters, clock, hate. Not sure about delver or fair non blue matchups but at least on paper this is a lot of things control doesn’t like seeing.
Enlightened tutor for humility/moatQuote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
The most recent list you posted (the esper tokens one) just feels like unsound deckbuilding,
- mana is super greedy in terms of colour requirements + wasteland
- so many 3drops when very vulnerable to wasteland
- so many 3drops when trying to play daze 4x
Esper Vial also has some of these issues but they have Aether Vial itself to smooth over a lot of these problems
Then you only have 8 "good" targets for Estrids and all they do is make creatures (History / Sarcomancy) it almost feels like you might as well play Lingering Souls in that slot instead
Maybe this list has a very good control MU but other matchups seem pretty suspect
Yah perhaps that idea was too deep and trying to make delverless delver is a bad idea. It’s hard to decide the best way to take the deck. Should it be more aggro with tokens, more prison with etutor and CB, or etb value plus discard?Quote:
Originally Posted by kombatkiwi
the 5-0 got a shout out
I am feeling like the deck could use some proactive disruption. Do you think that the Confounding Conundrum plus parallax tide combo could be worth including here (upheaval their lands every turn)
Not sure how to progress after labe ban.
- The miracles version relied on it quite a bit to make mystic sanctuary work.
- Great blink target for aminatou and yorion.
- the tokens mana is just bad, scrapped.
- But haste elks were a massive problem for the deck: aminatou, courts and trial go way up in value.
- I think sarcomancy in a heavy black build similar to my 5-0 is required. The deck needs a blinkable 1 drop to function and that is the best one in colours.
- E plague’s stock went way up, could probably mains deck it.
- An Esper mentor deck just won the challenge so maybe the pyroblast problem isn’t as bad as I think.
- Cards in hand matter again so maybe I can play disinformation campaign again.
Witching Well for 1 drop blink? Good with CB
Pyroblast is probably not a problem. Fewer Okos and Veils means less need for blue decks to maindeck Pyroblast, as well as no Arcanists to abuse it.
With Parallax Tide the real combo is to remove/blink it at instant speed in response. Then 0: exile up to 5 target lands.
I’m really would rather not play a card that isn’t worth a full card to blink if possible, and can’t be used by estrids... medomai’s prophecy lets you do similar things but card positive instead of negative.
Another option is mystic remora.
I am wary of the parallax because it pushes into more “bad standalone cards” like Teferi A’s time twist or confounding conundrum.
Draft list post banning:
Sanctuary and cottage are unreliable to enable vs decks that attack your mana, relegated to sideboard. Slightly upped curve and land count because no more good 1 cmc blink targets, other than maybe mystic remora.
2 Prismatic Vista
4 Polluted Delta
4 Marsh Flats
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Karakas
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Snow-Covered Island
2 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Fatal Push
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Medomai’s Prophecy
4 Omen of the Sea
2 Cling to Dust
3 Trial of Ambition
4 Sarcomancy
4 Aminatou, the Fateshifter
4 Estrid’s Invocation
2 Court of Grace
2 Detention Sphere
1 Oath of Kaya
1 Engineered Plague
4 Force of Will
3 Force of Negation
4 Enlightened tutor
1 Yorion
1 Nevermore
1 Damping Sphere
1 Rest In Peace
1 Moat
1 Graftdigger’s Cage
1 Witch’s Cottage
1 Mystical Sanctuary
1 Pithing needle
2 Swords to Plowshares
There are many options at 2 cmc. I assumed it was a curve thing, where you need some at 1 cmc to replace Astrolabe (also not an enchant). Unfortunately there isn't much at 1. Abundant Growth is off color.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reeplcheep
Remora has always been mediocre in Legacy compared to Vintage. You could try it out, but it's bad tempo.
Sarcomancy seems risky in a slow control deck with no other zombies. It's questionable whether a 2/2 token is worth a full card in this shell too, though it does help slow down aggressive starts. Any positive results with it?
Maybe it's better to just play Preordain in that slot. Less synergy with the engines, but it will lead to better curve outs and better overall value for 1 mana.
It was a curve thing, but I am not sure 1 mana is worth card disadvantage. Yah without the mana of enchantress I probably can't afford the upkeep on remora.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
It got me a bunch of wins in my 5-0, and pressured planeswalkers and sylvan library well which other cards don't do. The main thing was turning any of my engines into a 3 cmc gideon AoZ was strong.
I could easily run Tymaret's blessing if I wanted to have more pressure; they have light synergy together and would let me trim court of grace (strong, but not sure i can support WW anymore)
I'm very bearish on this archetype now with the astro ban.
Let us know how the testing goes but I'm not optimistic
Ran a league and got a 4-1!
Basically the list above but trimmed aminatou, prophecy, courts, and oath for 4 tymarets blessing plus 2 sevinnes reclamation. Tymarets blessing is not as strong as history in a vacuum but milling sevinnes or cling was #value. More reliably turning off sarcomancy life loss was also strong. Only having white cards t3 or sb means the loss of labe isn’t felt as much.
highlights:
Zombie beats got there vs Bant miracles with the help of some discard and forcing the terminus.
beat lands post board through loam plus 2x sphere with just 2 sarcomancy beats. 0 castable spells but he sided out removal and loaning through 2x sphere to find depths was too slow.
Lost to turbo doomsday with the t2 double disruption nuts, but that’s to be expected in a yorion deck.
Ground out the most ridiculous bug fit deck with the new 6 cmc cosmos serpent and hydroid Krasis and uro by making 4 zombies a turn. Witches cottage rebuying yorion was also strong there.
4c loam deck just folded to trial of ambition doing an abyss impression.
Overall the heavy black version benefits from the bans I think. No labe and oko means less pyroblast and elks. More creature threats that aren’t as snowbally means the trial of ambition lock is easier to run (don’t absolutely need t1 removal) and stronger. Average toughness has gone down so 2/2s are real bodies now.
I am wondering if preordain is better than ponder in this deck since we want to open on t1 swamp discard, t2 removal/zombie island most of the time, meaning we don’t have t2 ponder fetch as an option.