Remand is intersting. I would like to see someone test it. I don't know how good it will be since it doesn't completly stop the spell, but I would like to see how it would work.
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Remand is intersting. I would like to see someone test it. I don't know how good it will be since it doesn't completly stop the spell, but I would like to see how it would work.
I've messed around with Remand in Thresh before and it's kinda hot, kinda not. On the one hand, when you have a clock on the board and you're close to winning, it's sweet since it stalls your opponent, gets you closer to winning and you draw a card. On the down side, when you're losing / under pressure, it's crappy since you need to stop a threat or not die--and there Remand, just stalls your own demise.
In this way, the card seems more of "win more" kind of thing. It's only really good when you're winning, but "not great" at all other times, where Counterspell is just the opposite, or at least even.
Remand, I think, is more fitting in pure combo, to stall for a turn and then just kill you. Thresh kills over several turns--that's why I'd rather just stop a spell for good.
Anyway, this was my experience with Remand in my techy UGbw list ("Witch-Maw Threshold") from a few months back.
Yes, but the card Remand isn't Counterspell. The card it's replacing is Portent (or Predict if you choose not to run Mental Note and run Portent in it's place). And it really does feel like you're casting Time Walk.
Thresh uses the cantrips to fill up the Graveyard, and making an otherwise 60 carddeck to something like a 52 carddeck. This way it didn't have to play average cards to fill up the last slots.
Remand is an average card. Not a hard counter, sits dead in the hand when your opponent doesn't cast anything, doesn't dig deep in your library. It is only nice when you are winning next turn, but counterspell does the same thing at that moment. It is only usefull against Blue based control with counters. Than you can remand your own spell and let a counter fizzle. But you are probably slowed down a turn and the power of this deck is that it got a fast clock for an aggro-controldeck.
But Remand isn't a draw spell either. Yeah, it draws a card, but it's not the same thing. Thresh's draw spells unconditionally draw cards and can be chained together to rip through your library and find what you need. Remand can never do this. It can support you when you're already winning, but we can ask that of a lot of cards that we don't play.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuckerPunch
I don't know if this has been done before, but it probably has. I play in a Meta that has a lot of black, so for the last couple of weeks that I played thresh, I have played with compost in the sidebord. I have never been upset to draw that card in any black matchup. It is a great way to keep your hand full against discard, and also good for drawing a counterspell or some other amazing peice of this deck. Think about it, if you play in a Meta where black is in:Compost FTW!
Just a thought! It works for me.
~AoD
I am currently testing a version of this deck (the Daniel Krutil more or less) and since I expect quite some mirror matches and a meta with more then average control presence to switch (some) galineas knights for river boa's.
The biggest offset would of course be that you can't pitch it to FoW. On the other hand I have difficulty breaking the mirror (I lose the creature war but stay alive because of Worship). And Islandwalk would be nice.
Anyone tested this? And if yes why does or doesn't it work.
I would be inclined to take it as a 2-of because I would be needing it when the game has come to a stalemate.
I personally haven't tested it. I would try it in the sideboard first before deciding to put it in maindeck. That's what your sideboard is for, your own personal touch to your deck. I have mixed feelings about this card. It doesn't seem right for this deck and here is why i think it wouldn't work:Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
1 It doesn't pitch to force
2 StP
3 When its not being blocked, Werebear and Mongoose can swing FTW.(And they're bigger)
It seems good with the regenerating island walk though..but that doesn't help it against StP. I would be interested to see how you do with it though.
If you want to win the mirror, Play Nanutuko Monastary as an additional Critter.
I took second at The Mana Leak Open 1 yesterday with UGW Thresh. My list and report can be found here.
I attempted to play Legacy @ DragonCon, but only ended up playing one game of casual against Rw Goblins w/ Bolts since not enough people to play. My brief report and list can be found here.
Besides it basically being the defacto build, I do play 2 impulses and Grunt in the SB.
As for impulse, my cantrips go 4 Brainstorm, 4 Visions, 3 Notes and 2 impulses. 3 notes feels right in all the testing I've done. I use to play Sleight of Hand until I remembered that impulse exists. Which is just awesome late game.
As for Grunt, he is what he is. By now most people realize how effective he is against so many decks.
How are most people here preparing for Grunt now? Hes showing up maindeck alot now which is bad for Thresh. Is there any good sb tech?
(well, it's my first post here, have been playing a lot of legacydecks for a while now, lurking the boards here and active posting at salvation.)
I'll be packing a little more digger spells, to find the necessary StP's for the grunt. Currently playing 4 Brainstorm, 4 Portent, 1 Serum Vision, and 4 Predicts. Though I must say, I didn't get to play against it (yet). I'll let you know my experiences.
Hey all, my first time posting here as well. I've been scanning these forums for about a year now, but I think I finally need to add my two cents.
Ever since grunt came out I've been wanting 2 additonal removal spells (in addition to StP) to include maindeck to stop him from eating my grave entirely. I've tried repeal, boomerang, echoing truth, psionic blast, afterlife, and temporal spring, but each of these seems subpar for this deck (and for the job of dealing with grunt).
If no good, maindeck-worthy creature removal besides StP exists, then I may think about adding some mental notes back in, but MAN do I hate running mental notes in place of portent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solpugid
Condemn?
Yeah, I just wrote a post saying condem as well... then I got logged out!
Anyhow, i think condemn would be the best choice, as it'll be of use in other matchups as well where you can commonly run out of answers, namely in my mind, faerie stompy.
I'd rather use Psionic Blast over condemn, but the 3cc is just too much (though it helps if you run disrupting shoal... i only own 2 FoW)
Yeah, I thought about condemn, but never tested it because most of the creatures I desperately want to target don't attack at all. Grunt can often just sit back and eat your grave, acting as a great blocker without entering the red zone until the damage is done. Plus, in so many match-ups (like Iggy or solidarity) is has no purpose at all (besides gaining yourself a bit of life at the expense of tempo and card advantage).
Overall I've not been unhappy with echoing truth. Could it run as a 1 or 2-of, almost as a catch-all answer?
First off, you should get 2 more FoW's! It's soo worth it. this deck isn't thresh without 4 Force of Will! secondly, I run 4 Mental Note, and 2 Portent. I cut a 4th Daze for the second Portent. I made top 4 a couple weeks ago with this deck, and I would have this week, but I gave my last opponent the win, because I wanted to leave. Mental Note helps a lot with recovering from the Grunt. More cantrips help too. Daze isn't that great late game anyway. I managed to play through 3 grunts on the Source Tourney, and if I can do it, anyone can!
Good luck all with the Grunt!
AoD
I was going to save this for Roanoke, but due to an irrational fear of Affinity, I cut the card from my sideboard.
The additional removal spell you are looking for, that both fits the mana and color curve, and deals with Grunt, as well as a great deal of problematic creatures for Threshold?
Reprisal.
That's awesome!Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Reprisal sounds awesome for the sideboard, but I was hoping to have a more versatile removal spell for game one. Engineered explosives fits, but I just can't justify running it. I mean, it wipes out a lot of threats, but also wipes out yours. I know Bardo runs it and it seems to do well for him. It is just a matter of playing around it, knowing you have it in your deck?
I think maybe my problem is I'm looking for a removal spell that doesn't exist...
Engineered Explosives is also an excellent choice. I play 2 MD as well. Trust me, you will not mind losing a Werebear if you have a goose and an enforcer that can recover and beat face. There is no shortage of creatures in this deck that can make up for a lost bear. My deck hasn't really been horribly devistated by Jotun Grunt. Maybe its Mental Note, maybe its Portent, maybe its Explosives...I dont know, but that little bitch will never make me scoop!Quote:
Originally Posted by Solpugid
Threads of Disloyalty seems promising because creature control is always better than removal. Its blue so it also pitches to FoW. You dont need to worry about having white mana for it. The ability to steal an opposing Werebear or even the dreaded Grunt would be amazing in the mirror match. Imagine forcing your opponent to swords their own grunt? The only slop I see is the sorc speed. But its not like you dont play 7-8 free counterspells.
Reprisal is nice but there are so many creatures in Legacy it doesnt kill. It does kill Enforcer, Fledgling, Grunt, and Negator, but thats about it.
And exalted angel, and a pumped-up goblin piledriver, and sea drake, and werebear. I'm not trying to be rude here, I'm just saying that as a sideboard card it has a lot of good targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
On another note, I'll try out two explosives in my build and see how I like them. I suppose i should have tested them already, though.:rolleyes:
My 2 cents about Threads of Disloyalty; It is Sorcery speed, rough in this deck. It costs three, also rough. The big problem is that it's double Blue. There are usually only three cards in the deck that require this.
The other problem is that there are way more targets for, say Reprisal, than Threads. It can give a much larger swing, but that matters little when Akroma is swinging on turn two. Or an Myr Enforcer on turn three. It also gives the option of naming Swords with Meddling Mage
I think Explosives is the best of the lot, but I have tested Threads, and as tight a sideboard as Threshold runs, I can't see it.
How is this a problem for a deck that plays all blue produceing lands or lands that get blue produceing lands(with the exception of the forest and if you play it, the plains)? Call me crazy but I dont think thats a big problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
@Reprisal: In what match ups would you rather Reprisal over Radiant's Judgement?
Really, just try the Explosives; they're nutz. I've been running them for more than two years in this deck and haven't dropped them yet. Since April I've had one in the maindeck and one in the sideboard--and they're really good, wherever you run them.
EE, Threads, and/or Reprisal... wow.
EE I have used forever as a metagame card. It's been doing very well for me. The fact that the mirror, or something random pops up makes it godly in so many match ups.
Threads and Reprisal look promising. I'm going to give it a shot.
Has Condemn been considered as alternate removal. Granted it doesn't permanently get rid of the critter but putting it on the bottom of the library is pretty close.The life loss could be a problem but hey you run Swords.
It's a problem because this deck under optimal conditions rarely has more than three lands on the table. Since against almost any Aggro deck, at least one of these will be a Basic, it means you lose the ability to even bluff a Counterspell. No, it's not a big problem on it's own, but it is one of many.Quote:
Originally Posted by overlord95
And since I only consider Reprisal as a sideboard card, I would choose it over a card costing one more every time.
EDIT:@Bardo: Since you run a version of the deck that is dependant on playing Mental Note, how often do you find your singletons milled? I agree about the overall applications of Engineered Explosives, but with only one maindeck(and only one Enforcer), I wonder how often it is either undrawn or milled.
Explosives really is great vs. a lot of decks. I've been playing 2 SB since, well, since i started to build this deck.
Another card I recently ran into: Worship. It's not a solution for the grunt, I know, but for a lot of other deck, it certainly works well. Vindicate, Humility and hardcounters are the only things you have to fear with a Mongoose + Worship. I've been planning to run 1 copy of it mainboard, mainly 'cause I didn't want to make room for it in the sideboard. The advantage of running one random copy is that there's no good sideboard option for the opponent. Is he packing enchantment removal, he has 2 or 3 dead cards. Isn't he packing it, you will have an additional win condition.
What do you guys think of this random option?
It does happen, which is why I'm running the two basic Islands--by far, the most important basic in the deck (but regardless of MN, 2 Islands just feels right). Anyway, I've dredged Enforcers and EEs away before but have gone on to win those games anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
There are few matches--game 1 anyhow--where you absolutely need Enforcer or EE (my only nonland maindeck singletons), I think you can go down to 0 in the maindeck of both and still pull out most of matches.
In games 2/3 where you really want EE and Enforcer, the mirror let's say, then you're not dredging singleton's there either and the basic land isn't a problem since hardly any Thresh decks run Wasteland, etc. In fact the only "land destruction" you may run into is Stifle.
Basically, you really can't be afraid of dredging stuff, for the reasons explained very well here:
Magical Myth #1: Milling Away Good Cards
"John is playing Dredgeatog against Affinity. He lost the first game, but in the second game he's managed to stabilize at a healthy sixteen life against an unimpressive attack force of Frogmite and Blinkmoth Nexus. Both players have no cards in hand. John decides to use this opportunity dredge up his Life from the Loam. He has a couple of fetchlands and a Barren Moor in the graveyard, so this choice is well-justified.
“'Dredge my Life from the Loam,'” John announces. The cost of dredge Millstones away, in order, Smother, Counterspell, and Counterspell.
“'Ugh!'” he says. “Look at all that juice! Worst dredge ever. Thanks a lot, Life from the Loam.”
"John plays Life from the Loam, cycles the Barren Moor, and draws Pernicious Deed. He slams down the enchantment, destroys his opponent's entire board, and wins the game a couple of turns later with Psychatog.
"Meanwhile, in a parallel universe, the exact same game of Magic is taking place… Except in this one, John decides not to dredge that Life from the Loam. Instead, John draws the Smother that is on top of his library. The Affinity player draws and plays a Cranial Plating, attaches it to the Frogmite, and attacks for seven damage.
“'Ouch!”' John thinks. “I could really use a Pernicious Deed about now.” John draws Counterspell – the same Counterspell that was milled away by Life from the Loam in the alternate universe. “Bummer,” he says. “That's not a Deed.”
"The Affinity player draws and plays an artifact land, so John takes eight damage. He enters his draw step at a precarious one life and rips another Counterspell. Facing certain death, John extends his hand in defeat, signs the match result slip, and flips over the top card of his library – just to see what was coming up next.
"Pernicious Deed.
"He slaps his forehead. “Of course it was the next card. God, I hate Magic.”
“'Thanks a lot, Life from the Loam'” indeed.
"My point is this: Milling away “good cards” means nothing over the course of your average, medium-length game of Magic. All that matters in most games is the specific card waiting on top of your library when you reach your draw step. Since your deck is randomized, you have just as good a chance of drawing any one of your cards in any one of your draw steps.
"Yes, it's demoralizing when you Mental Note away two cards you really wanted. But, it's no reason to get angry and think about cutting the Mental Note entirely from your deck. The Note had a chance to peel away two lands you didn't need and move the card you were looking for from “four draw steps away” to “right on top.” People tend to remember the bad mills they get, and overlook the good ones. Unless you're setting up your deck with cards like Sensei's Divining Top, it's all completely random.
"A lot of people were afraid to play Commune with Nature during Kamigawa Block Limited. “What if I put my Dance of Shadows on the bottom of my deck? That would suck!” Well, what if your Dance of Shadows is already on the bottom? That turn 1 Commune is the only way you'll ever see it.
"Seriously, folks, don't freak out about this stuff.
"For the sake of thoroughness, I will mention that Milling away good cards is relevant in very specific situations. It becomes an issue, for example, when you remove one-ofs from your library that you were planning on tutoring for. It's an issue when you're playing a very long war of attrition in which victory by decking may come into play. It matters when your deck has a very small number of threats, all of which you must fight to keep in your deck (In the Flores Blue mirror match in Standard, for example, you don't want to be Milling away any of your creatures for any reason. If you lose copies of your Meloku, Jushi Apprentice, and Keiga, you might find you are left with no ways to win).
"A majority of the time, however, Milling past random unknown cards doesn't hurt you one bit. Don't worry about it!"
Thank you for your, as always, well thought out reply. I am familiar with the both the article, and it's application. I have played more games with Life from the Loam in a control deck than I care to adimit.
More directly to the point; Why would you choose to run a card that while is potentially game-breaking when properly applied, you statisically have little chance to use?
A Visions, or Brainstom can set up a Mental Note to avoid this, so the mill effect itself may be inconsequential, but with the relatively limited amount of cantrips run in your version of the deck, the chance of milling, and the fact that the card is only a one-of, I would be more concerned with a potentially wasted slot or two than fear or dredging my only out.
It's not that I consider this a bad strategy, and I'm certain you have run through almost every possible scenario with this deck. I was more forming the opinion that you could take more advantage of Game one if you had access to an additional copy of a card like Explosives or Enforcer, which give such a large swing against a mulititude of decks.
I run two enforcers maindeck, and I wouldn't even consider dropping one. This may be due to my metagame (very aggro and deadguy heavy), but I absolutely love him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
I'll also be trying engineered explosives as a 2-of maindeck to see if I like it. I'll be sure to let you know how my testing turns out.
I'm no mathematician, but with the deck's drawing power, you find the singletons far more than you'd think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
I'm running 12 cantrips, starting from 16 a year ago (and 14 sometime in the middle there) and you still see a ton of cards in your deck. SV and Brainstorm/fetch moves you through your deck quickly and MN essentially makes the deck a 56-58 card deck alone. Mathematically, I really can't explain it, but you see the 1-ofs frequently. Though I'm having a hard time explaining the phenomenon. :)
@ Solpugid - I think you can go down to 0 Enforcers and still do well. Going back to my first article on the deck (written in early December 2004), you can see I was running 3 for the same reason you mentioned.
But I've learned that the deck is still really strong without them. And I'm surprised by the amount of times I sideboard out my only maindeck copy. I think this position is also validated by Summersberger's First Place GP: Lille deck which didn't run any guys that cost more the 2 mana (i.e. no Enforcer/Dragon).
Mental Note does little to help you find singleton cards except to trash those cards from Brainstorm that are bad. It essentially draws 1 random card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
Nonetheless, I stand by what I said earlier: I find the singletons in my hand far more often than you'd think.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnwarA101
I think what Parcher was trying to get at is that finding the singletons "more often than you'd think" isn't necessarily better than finding them more often than that. On the other hand, if seeing the cards more often would actually be bad for some reason, it's very possible you shouldn't be running any copies at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
The bottom line is that unique singletons are very difficult to justify as optimal, even in a deck with velocity.
I completely agree with Bardo here and actually came to the same conclusion spereatly. I love the two one-ofs and would never drop to 0 or bump up to one. At least not in this meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bardo
My reasoning for 1-of EE and Enforcer goes something like this:
I'm running a deck with 17-18 land. If I run enough draw to get 4 mana reliably, then I'm running enough draw to find a one of somewhat reliably. Also, there are virtually no matchups which hinge on either of these cards.
Also, these two cards are often dead, unneeded (namely in the combo matchup) or uncastable. That's where the shuffle and scry effects come in handy. When I bury a one of, I'm unlikely to see it again. What's even more useful are the 6 mill effects I run. If you can set up a mill of a one of, you never need to worry about it popping up again.
I don't know that this is 100% and it may vary from meta to meta, but it's worked very well for me at least.
I run 2 Mystic Enforcers, and 2 EE. I also play 4 Mental Note. I have been doing really well at my local tournaments with this build. I win a lot of games because I draw into both of my Enforcers. It feels awesome to beat your opponent with 2 Enforcers and a goose and/or a bear. Mental Note is simply amazing! I play 4 MN and 2 portent. It works really well for me..