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Against UGW you need a Medling Mage on Mystic Enforer and it is safe...
btw I had a mirror today: MIRROR SUXX!
Its just "Draw Meddling Mage, drop it on the stuff, that you don't have in your hand and would suck for you now!"
On game there was 4 meddling MAges online:
Jitte (he)
StoP (Me)
Ghastly Demise (me)
FoW (Me)
page 3 is broken atm so i can't read Windux's post... EDIT: there, fixed
But I took the deck to my local tournament once again last friday and again did semi-well... I played burn first round which was surprisingly more dificult than I thought it would be; however, he did play MD pyrostatic (funny enough he had 2 out game 1 and he was at 4 and i was at 2... it was his 3 remaining fireblasts against my 2 remaining FoW's)
I completely slaughtered the rest of my matches for a 3-1 ending match record (7-2 game record).
Won't an AEther Vial be very good in the deck? You get 2 counters and then you don't need to pay mana for nearly all your guys, while using mana for other spells. Not to mention creatures become uncounterable and it sometimes can help you to alive through mana problems.
While I am a massive supporter of Vial in Type 1 UWb Fish, I don't believe it is proactive enough to fit in this deck. The creatures are cheap enough that you can cast them with little fear, because Daze and FoW are your primary counter backup, which obviously require no untapped land. Vial is pretty slow for this deck's gameplan, and it doesn't enable Ninja/Mage/Voidmage Prodigy/Kataki tricks like it does in type one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meatwarz
I tested with Aether Vial for a while and it doesn't really fit in this deck. Combat tricks are nice and it does give a little manabase consistency, but it just doesn't fit the deck. I run only 16 creatures, meaning that 27 spells in the deck cannot be cast by Aether Vial. Mid-late game Vial topdecks are completely dead draws. I suppose that in a variant with a ton of creatures, Vial could be useful... but it was very subpar in my testing.
Many people tend to think Vial is good in Fish... but let's examine why it is good in Goblins. Goblins is a mana hungry deck and the additional creature it puts into play helps them to cast multiple threats in a turn. The casting cost of the Goblins themselves are pretty high in cost. Fish doesn't have expensive creatures, so it's never really an issue to hardcast creatures. Fish has far less creature density than Goblins as well.
It can be nice to Vial in creatures to save for Counterspells early on... but the countermagic is free anyway (FoW and Daze). It can be nice to help put multiple threats into play early on... but your still spending your first turn playing Vial and then 2 upkeeps worth of counters to be able to Vial creatures into play. It doesn't really speed anything up early on... although the deck doesn't need increased speed anyway. The fact that all of the spells in the deck cost 1cc and 2cc makes the deck incredibly fast as it is.
Vial may be good in Vintage Fish, but Legacy is much different than Vintage.
Anyway, rather than try to make arguments for why I don't run it, just know that I tested it and I found it to be subpar. You can test it out for yourselves as well, and if you like it, go ahead and run it. However, I just don't think Vial is supposed to be in Fish. Goblins, yea. Fish, not so much.
Im about to unveil the number one way to destroy threshold with non other then meddling mage. As a 2 drop, mage is at worst Meddling mage is a grizzly bears but it also prevents spot removal from coming into play. Ideally you could cut STP and start running condemn as it is just as strong an answer. But what is the tech play? Slaping down a meddling mage and naming swords of course!! HOLY CRAP ARE THOSE DEAD CARDS IN YOUR HAND?!?! Yeah man, his mage is raping me…. While it does not seem like such a good play, if condemn is played, you should be able to have just as much spot removal and still take home victories.
Just a little idea, I was doing it in the mirror threshold =D but instead of condemn I was brining in joten grunt…. Pwnzor
O RLY?Quote:
Originally Posted by aznfoodgood
Condemn is suboptimal and doesn't stop Nimble Mongooses... which is why I drop 2 StP postboard for 2 Perish. Personally, I think Perish is a much stronger card than Condemn against Threshold. I also bring in the 4th Duress, and sometimes I'll bring in E Explosives if I see Pithing Needles game 1.
So that gives me, for the Threshold matchup:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Duress
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Perish
0-2 Engineered Explosives
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mother of Runes
Every single one of the cards mentioned above is amazing in the Threshold matchup, although Jitte and Mom (and E Explosives to an extent) can be wrecked by Pithing Needle.
Regardless, the Threshold matchup is a very favorable one.
Ok so we have some what covered the threshold matchup but I wanted to quickly ask one question, WHAT ABOUT GOBS? There are many decks that claim to beat them but I don’t think that this deck packs the punch… as it is the best ago deck in the format, it just seems there are to many dead cards cough cough Duress… yeah although there are some answers to gobs, jitte is not… as your average gobs player as tinkerer or tin street hooligan < SAY WHAT?!?! Or even korsian grip out of the sb as I believe that goblins will soon take on the color green rather then white to access some new cards
Just some quick thoughts before I go.
Cop red?
Wrath of god?
More spot removal? In what form? Condemn? Hydro blast?
Is joten grunt that effective? Seems like he gets chumped so much and then dies when you run out of cards…
Moat? It’s a far cry from being good even though it says, hahahaha you cant get me hahahaha…
Or even… should I say it? Tivadars crusade…. ROFL EAT WRATH BITCH
Just a couple ideas and things to think about
Please reply
Hahahaha I just remembered that the black version you guys are running can play endeared plague but seriously goblins can win with a plague on the board and with korsian grip… it will still be tough… just kidding, but seriously take into account the suggestions I have brought forth, perhaps there is a better way to beat the best agro deck in the format
And I leave you with a quote “there are two types of decks in legacy, those that beat goblins and those that think they can”
-food
I don't understand why do you use sideboard cards for a very favorable match up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
While favorable its not guaranteed, and you will be seeing Threshold decks a lot. Part of the reason that it is favorable is because of proper sideboarding, although 1st game should be in your favor. It also lets you name StP with Mage more reliably, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lejay
The main reason would be because your just going to see the deck so much, and its not THAT favorable.
aznfoodgod, this deck isn't nearly as bad against Goblins as many people think. I believe it to be one of the hardest matchups for this deck but it's not an autoloss by any means.
Game 1 you really want to see a countermagic heavy hand (and/or StP). If you can keep their first few threats off the table and win the early game tempo advantage, it's usually not that hard to win. Of course, you want to fetch basics early to protect against Wasteland... and stopping the early Vial can win games. Turn 1 Stifle on their fetchland can create amazing tempo on the play, and I've won several game 1's against Goblins by starting off that way. Stifle really helps in this matchup, protecting guys against Fanatic and Incinerator or shutting off the opponent's draw/search Ringleader/Matron. Mother of Runes and Umezawa's Jitte are both amazing to see. Game 1 is about 40/60.
Game 2 is much better. You drop the 3 Duress (which I agree is underpowered against Goblins) and you gain 4 Engineered Plague and 3 Pithing Needle. Engineered Plague may not stop Goblins dead and win the game alone, but cutting off the opponent's removal via Fanatic (as well as permanent Wrath'ing all of their x/1 guys) and making Siege Gang Bang less amazing really helps. It turns the rest of the survivors into 1/1's (aside from Piledriver), allowing Fish's aggro to dominate the combat situations. Engineered Plague is a major crutch for Goblins and will generally give Fish a major advantage. The only concern then becomes keeping threats on the board, but that's not too hard after E Plague hits play. The problem with playing E Plague, though, is that it costs 2B. The Goblins players mana denial can make it difficult. That's where Pithing Needle (and Stifle to a lesser extent) come into play. Needle can shut off Ports and Wastelands. Needle can also cut off their Vials, making them far less explosive and sometimes causing them to lose far too much tempo to recover. It's also a permanent answer to both Fanatic and Incinerator or even Tinkerer. 3 Stifle, 3 Pithing Needle, 2 Umezawa's Jitte, 3 Mother of Runes, and 4 Engineered Plague are all very strong cards in this matchup. I'd say that games 2 and 3 are about 60/40 if you've playtested the matchup extensively enough and know what your doing.
As far as your considerations go, CoP: Red pretty much sucks vs Goblins. It might stop a Piledriver from doing some big damage, but Goblins swings with more sources than I have mana to pay for. Wrath of God is completely counterproductive to my own strategy. I don't think more spot removal is necessary... I'd rather have mass sweeps (Tivadar's Crusade) if anything. Although I feel that Engineered Plague is far more powerful than Tivadar's Crusade vs Goblins... and the fact that it doesn't require a double source is helpful. Moat could be a solid idea, though 2WW will mean it probably won't come online till it's too late most of the time and I only have 2 fliers in the deck. It also seems pretty narrow against the rest of the (aggro) field, since the 3rd Jitte will almost always be a better play. Jotun Grunt isn't too bad vs Goblins, since it is a 4/4 body (which can sometimes be hard for Goblins to deal with), though he does cause me to play the beatdown, which can be a bad thing. I drop 1 Grunt for games 2 and 3, since in games 2 and 3 the Engineered Plagues allow me to play the control more effectively.
Lejay, I sideboard in Perish because it's not a bad sideboard card vs random green aggro decks that occasionally have a presence that can be hard to deal with, such as G/r Beats or 9 Land Stompy. It also makes games 2 and 3 vs Threshold very good, making for savage Meddling Mages (on StP). Threshold is an extremely popular deck at large events and it doesn't hurt to make already favorable matchups even better... I want to make sure that I beat Threshold every single time.
Valor, Threshold is THAT favorable. In my last 15 2/3 w/ SB test games vs Threshold, I haven't lost a single match. 2 of the 2/3's were vs UGr and the rest were vs UGw. It's possible to lose this matchup, especially depending on playskill of both players, but the only times I had problems with Threshold was at the D4D Day 2 where my misplay of forgetting Jotun Grunt's upkeep is what made it difficult.
Carry on.
I keep hearing this from you over and over, and still am completely unconvinced. See, I have played this matchup many times, and here is what I have found:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
1) All of Threshold's creatures are both larger, and more resiliant than any of Fish's.
2) Threshold runs both more countermagic, and quicker, more efficient ways to access it.
3) Fish runs one extremely slow answer to graveyard-based decks that is easily removed. Even if Grunt is resolved and not Plowed, the rest of Fish's clock is so slow that taking eight just to let him die, then filling the graveyard immediately after to achieve Threshold is easily accomplished. Conversely, if he is successfully cast later in the game, his ability will not come into play quickly enough to negatively affect Threshold's creatures, which will by then be either as large, or larger than he.
4) 7 of your listed cards for the Threshold matchup are stopped by Pithing Needle, which you have no way to remove.
5) Duress is an extremely poor card against Threshold without other discard. If the card can't be protected with Brainstorm, it can usually be cantripped right back. Or you nab a cantrip. Duress is superb at forcing through a win condition against control, but there are no game-ending cards in this deck.
6) Two Perish with the draw mechanisms in this deck gives about a 60% chance of drawing one. With Threshold's much faster clock, and greater countermagic suite, there is little chance of resolving one.
7) Threshold runs no dead cards. Stifle is dead against a competant Threshold player.
8) Dark Confidant will never in the course of a game compete with the card quality that Threshold's cantrip suite has. It is actually one of the cards I intentionally allow to resolve, as it is extremely easy to stymie the remainder of Fish's attacking creatures, and allow the Confidant to bring them within easy striking distance.
The matchup is two Tempo based decks vs. one another. Who can establish, and maintain pressure best usually wins. Since one of these decks has bigger, better, faster, more resiliant threats, with more ways to protect them, and more ways to continually draw them, I am quite certain it can make up for the minor advantages Fish has in hand and graveyard disruption.
Some time ago, ObfuscateFreely said that in the metagame clock, Threshold not only underlines the aggro-control, but against opposing aggro, it's also the midgame deck. What made this so strong was the fact that it can play two roles in the metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Also, I had no idea how Obfusctae Freely lost... really.
The only resiliant threat is Nimble Mongoose, which can either be named by Meddling Mage (usually I name either StP or Nimble Mongoose, though in certain situations I can also name Needle). He can be blocked by Jotun Grunt or Mother of Runes, Jitte outsizes him, and Avenger trades with him. Werebear and Enforcer are both an StP away if not countered. They also rely on having a state of Threshold, which Jotun Grunt removes. Also note that my creatures double over as utility while Thresh's creatures are just big post-Threshold.Quote:
1) All of Threshold's creatures are both larger, and more resiliant than any of Fish's.
Jotun Grunt is a house in this matchup.Quote:
) Fish runs one extremely slow answer to graveyard-based decks that is easily removed. Even if Grunt is resolved and not Plowed, the rest of Fish's clock is so slow that taking eight just to let him die, then filling the graveyard immediately after to achieve Threshold is easily accomplished. Conversely, if he is successfully cast later in the game, his ability will not come into play quickly enough to negatively affect Threshold's creatures, which will by then be either as large, or larger than he.
If Countermagic or Duress doesn't get rid of them first, I have 2 Engineered Explosives in the board that will also remove Nimble Mongooses with it.Quote:
4) 7 of your listed cards for the Threshold matchup are stopped by Pithing Needle, which you have no way to remove.
Duress is a house against Threshold. Threshold runs no card advantage, aside from Predict, which means that while its card quality will be good, it's card advantage won't be. Duress lowers their hand count. Duress makes my Meddling Mage namings typically better. Duress might not have much to grab when the opponent has a hand full of cantrips but it does help pull out the business spells like FoW and StP. I don't see Threshold as having multiple cantrips in hand during every possible turn in the game. It makes putting my threats into player easier, since it pulls out Countermagic beforehand, and it helps keep them their so that StP and Pithing Needle don't stop them.Quote:
5) Duress is an extremely poor card against Threshold without other discard. If the card can't be protected with Brainstorm, it can usually be cantripped right back. Or you nab a cantrip. Duress is superb at forcing through a win condition against control, but there are no game-ending cards in this deck.
I'm not relying on drawing Perish to win. It's already a favorable matchup. Perish just puts it over the top. It makes my Meddling Mages on StP savage, and it can also be complimented by Engineered Explosives.Quote:
6) Two Perish with the draw mechanisms in this deck gives about a 60% chance of drawing one. With Threshold's much faster clock, and greater countermagic suite, there is little chance of resolving one
Well, I can Stifle a fetchland if I think it's going to help me. Otherwise, it's not really dead in my deck since it stops Grunt's upkeep if he'd otherwise die the next turn. Within my deck itself, Stifle is useful... so I don't see how it's a dead card. It also gets boarded out (1-2) for games 2 and 3 anyway.Quote:
7) Threshold runs no dead cards. Stifle is dead against a competant Threshold player.
Dark Confidant is a house against Threshold. On average, I'm taking like 1.1 life per turn from Confidant (when I'm not manipulating the top of my library). Card advantage (especially since I also have cantrip for card quality) gives me more threats and answers than Threshold can deal with. Dark Confidant, aside from Jotun Grunt, is the most powerful card in my deck vs Threshold.Quote:
8) Dark Confidant will never in the course of a game compete with the card quality that Threshold's cantrip suite has. It is actually one of the cards I intentionally allow to resolve, as it is extremely easy to stymie the remainder of Fish's attacking creatures, and allow the Confidant to bring them within easy striking distance.
I agree to an extent. They both use tempo elements. However, there is alot more going on than just a battle of tempo. Card advantage and board control are also very important. I wouldn't necessarily say Threshold's creatures are bigger, although generally they are, and I wouldn't say they are faster, since they usually have less threat Density and don't get much creatures into play early game. I will concede that they are bigger post Threshold, and that size in the sense of an aggro clock makes them kill me faster if unchecked. As for resiliance, I think that Mother of Runes and Meddling Mage on StP is pretty resilient on my part, so I'd say it's about even. As for more ways to protect them, I strongly disagree. The opponent has possibly 1 more Daze and around 2 Counterspells (maybe 3) that I don't have. I have 4 Duress (post board) and 3 Mother of Runes (and Meddling Mage on StP), so I think I have way more ways to protect my guys. I also disagree when you say that Fish has less ways to continually draw it's answes/threats, since it still runs 8 cantrip and Dark Confidant is nuts.Quote:
The matchup is two Tempo based decks vs. one another. Who can establish, and maintain pressure best usually wins. Since one of these decks has bigger, better, faster, more resiliant threats, with more ways to protect them, and more ways to continually draw them, I am quite certain it can make up for the minor advantages Fish has in hand and graveyard disruption.
All I can really say is, I'll PM you on AIM when I get the time and we can playtest this matchup as much as you'd like. I've played against Threshold numerous times and I can say with great certainty that my deck has a very favorable matchup for Threshold, hands down.
Well, you can read my tournament report or ask him, although I'm not sure how detailed my report is. Basically, I saw and resolved Dark Confidant in one of the games and I saw and resolved Jotun Grunt in another.Quote:
Also, I had no idea how Obfusctae Freely lost... really.
I wont argue here, but if they're smart, they will board in more men aganst you. Also, they have Engineered Explosives too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
So is Swords to Plowshares and Countermagic.Quote:
Jotun Grunt is a house in this matchup.
Quote:
If Countermagic or Duress doesn't get rid of them first, I have 2 Engineered Explosives in the board that will also remove Nimble Mongooses with it.
What? They dont need Card Advantage, they just need card quality. It's hardly a problem that they ever draw dead.Quote:
Duress is a house against Threshold. Threshold runs no card advantage, aside from Predict, which means that while its card quality will be good, it's card advantage won't be. Duress lowers their hand count. Duress makes my Meddling Mage namings typically better. Duress might not have much to grab when the opponent has a hand full of cantrips but it does help pull out the business spells like FoW and StP. I don't see Threshold as having multiple cantrips in hand during every possible turn in the game. It makes putting my threats into player easier, since it pulls out Countermagic beforehand, and it helps keep them their so that StP and Pithing Needle don't stop them.
Threshold does the same. Meddling Mage seems to be overrated at the moment.Quote:
I'm not relying on drawing Perish to win. It's already a favorable matchup. Perish just puts it over the top. It makes my Meddling Mages on StP savage, and it can also be complimented by Engineered Explosives.
Stifling fetchlands are that efficient? I bet Threshold players would do the same.I'm sure their Stifles can hit yur EEs as well.Quote:
Well, I can Stifle a fetchland if I think it's going to help me. Otherwise, it's not really dead in my deck since it stops Grunt's upkeep if he'd otherwise die the next turn. Within my deck itself, Stifle is useful... so I don't see how it's a dead card. It also gets boarded out (1-2) for games 2 and 3 anyway.
What if you dont draw it? Threshold has a stronger Cantrip base than you do. They'll find their answers and threats much more quickly.Quote:
Dark Confidant is a house against Threshold. On average, I'm taking like 1.1 life per turn from Confidant (when I'm not manipulating the top of my library). Card advantage (especially since I also have cantrip for card quality) gives me more threats and answers than Threshold can deal with. Dark Confidant, aside from Jotun Grunt, is the most powerful card in my deck vs Threshold.
Based on my playtesting... I would say it's 50/50. It's exactly like the mirror's match-ups, but they have to be played differently.Quote:
I agree to an extent. They both use tempo elements. However, there is alot more going on than just a battle of tempo. Card advantage and board control are also very important. I wouldn't necessarily say Threshold's creatures are bigger, although generally they are, and I wouldn't say they are faster, since they usually have less threat Density and don't get much creatures into play early game. I will concede that they are bigger post Threshold, and that size in the sense of an aggro clock makes them kill me faster if unchecked. As for resiliance, I think that Mother of Runes and Meddling Mage on StP is pretty resilient on my part, so I'd say it's about even. As for more ways to protect them, I strongly disagree. The opponent has possibly 1 more Daze and around 2 Counterspells (maybe 3) that I don't have. I have 4 Duress (post board) and 3 Mother of Runes (and Meddling Mage on StP), so I think I have way more ways to protect my guys. I also disagree when you say that Fish has less ways to continually draw it's answes/threats, since it still runs 8 cantrip and Dark Confidant is nuts.
Damn... I have my AIM. IM me, I dont trust other people with their playskill. I would much rather play the pioneer of this deck.Quote:
All I can really say is, I'll PM you on AIM when I get the time and we can playtest this matchup as much as you'd like. I've played against Threshold numerous times and I can say with great certainty that my deck has a very favorable matchup for Threshold, hands down.
Damn... I wish I knew his sided for games 2 and 3.Quote:
Well, you can read my tournament report or ask him, although I'm not sure how detailed my report is. Basically, I saw and resolved Dark Confidant in one of the games and I saw and resolved Jotun Grunt in another.
Sigh.....
Y'know, Hanni's being mature enough not to take this discussion as a personal attack, so I guess I can let this snipe at my skill by someone who hasn't the first clue of what they speak slide.
I don't think this needs to be drawn out any longer, as it may just be a disagreement based on point of view. No one is claiming that Threshold is even favored against Fish, only that the opposite is equally false. It's strange that for a deck with such a small presence in the meta that Hanni's matchup statistics have been eerily accurate. Perhaps it is simply the myriad variants of both decks being played that give such a broad amount of results. Perhaps the Hatfield version is worse than other's against Fish.
With the high degree of success of many different versions of Threshold, and the same possible flexibility of diversity in Fish's builds, it may simply be who drew what, who played first, or who has a more applicable sideboard. This is why I refuse to allow that either deck can definitively claim a favorable matchup against the other.
Not saying this deck is terrible, but I would like further proof on this deck's match-up against Threshold. I have tested this match-up extensively, and I would like tok point out that Thresh doesnt get slaughtered like crazy, but more of a 50/50 match-up. Also from my testing, I have concluded that they both have somewhat different functions. Hanni Fish is stronger against the field and is not reliant with the graveyard, but in return it posts weaker match-ups against Goblins Post-Board. Threshold is the same, but versus Aggro, Threshold tends to do much better, but has to prepare for graveyard hate game 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Parcher
Hatfield Thresh is doing as well against this deck due to the lack of Mental Note. In fact, this would be the reason why I would run Mental Note again. I learned that if you inflict a ton of damage from your opponent, it will force him to either play Bob or keep in in their hand, as this is one of the biggest sacrifices to make within the course of the game. Also, Mage is by far the most dangerous creature in that deck, as well as Bob. Make sure they dont resolve... ever. I know this because I tested two different variants against this deck.
Just looking at Aether Vial in the list for this deck looked sub par.
Hello to everybody!! I would like to comment some impression that had taken with this deck(my own version of uwb fish):
--Instants--
4 fow
3 daze
2 counterspell
4 branstorm
4 stp
3 stifer
--sorcerys--
4 pserum visions
-- leg. artifacts --
2 jitte
-- beast --
4 meddeling
4 dak confidant
3 jotun
3 serendib
3 isamaru
--lands--
1 island
1 plain
1 karakas(T: white or T:return target legend criature to owner's hand)
4 flooded
2 polluted
4 tundras
3 underground
1 scrubland
This deck is similar to of hanni, but with light differences. Out duress, needle and mom, and IN 3isamarus and one serendib.
The basic problem is that loses lives with many facility...fow-cnfidant..:s and one serendib or two with one or two cnfidants...
For this motive I have decided to realize (or not...)the following changes:
-1 serendib, -1 isamaru, -1 counter and +2 avenger and +1 jitte.
Karakas help me becouse I can return my isamarus to my hand, or other legend that wold be dangerous to me.
About the matc against thershold...I hope that it's favorable for my!!
I tested against white wenne whit a incredibol results: 8-0 to me jejej
This deck might turn in tier1 some day?? I wish it!!
Ah!! I'm from barcelona!
I can see that you're from Barcelona. Nice Engrish.:wink:
Sorry...:frown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_Van_R
This is the version that I'm currently playing I was running serendibs up till very recently when I switched over to Serra Avenger's at first I thought the WW and can't be played till 4th turn and can't be pitched to FoW was all negatives but now that I actually tried them I actually like them.
I don't like duress maindeck cause I don't like fetching out a sea and having it wasted and having the set back unless i really need the colored i usually fetch for the island or plains if I can also don't like duress wiffs against goblins the most popular deck.
I've always run 61 cards since my keeper days of old when i wanted to fit in that extra silver bullet.
I had 2 counterspells but took one out to put maindeck needles going down to 2 stifle and I didn't like that couple times I needed a stifle to stifle grunt or confidant to not die or swing for the wing so i went back up to 3 stifle since its randomly good on grunts and confidant among other things so I was left with the 1 needle, might change that to a counterspell but I really hate wastelands from my keeper days so things look a little weird with those 2 one ofs.
I also run 3 jitte cause equipped jitte is win its just that good so why not maximize drawing with 3, you don't want 4 cause its legendary.
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [UNH] Island
1 [LND] Plains (5)
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [B] Scrubland
4 [A] Tundra
4 [R] Underground Sea
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [CS] Jotun Grunt
4 [PS] Meddling Mage
3 [UL] Mother of Runes
2 [TSP] Serra Avenger
// Spells
4 [BD] Brainstorm
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [FD] Serum Visions
3 [SC] Stifle
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
1 [7E] Counterspell
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [7E] Disenchant
SB: 3 [7E] Duress
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [6E] Serenity
Might actually try out maindeck duresses again but what to cut.
As far as the 3rd Jitte goes, I board a 3rd one and bring it in vs aggro matchups but if your going to run 61 cards, the 3rd Jitte is the obvious 61st card.
I like maindeck Duress for what it does for the deck. If you fear Wasteland, don't try to play turn 1 Duress. You still need the black source to cast Dark Confidant though, so keep that in mind. Against Goblins, they come out for Engineered Plagues anyways. I decided that it wasn't worth it to try and make game 1 vs Goblins any better because I would sacrifice too much to other matchups and I still wouldn't make it favorable. It's about 40/60 pre-board and 60/40 post-board and I don't mind that.
As far as Serendib vs Avenger go, they both have their pros and cons. I run Avenger because she owns.
As for the random 1 Pithing Needle, I'd rather run an extra Stifle maindeck, or in your case, another Counterspell. Needle can be dead in some matchups but Stifle has inherent synergy within the deck when it's not useful, so it's never really dead. Needle also doesn't pitch to FoW. Pithing Needle is a very strong card though, which is why I sideboard 3 of them.
Which are the pros and the cons??Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
Serendib is a 3/4. The difference of resistance in one does that lightnings, the mongeese don't affect him. Serendib can be pickef with fow...but the point of life that we lose, added to the points of life of the confidant make ideal the incursion of the third jitte.
Avenger is 3/3 fling wiht vigilance. Can't be picket with fow, cost WW and can't be played till 4th turn.
Slightly more?
Serendib Efreet
Pros: 4 toughness, pitchable to FoW, single blue in the casting cost.
Cons: 1 damage per upkeep, 3 mana casting cost.
Serra Avenger
Pros: Vigilance, 2 mana casting cost.
Cons: Double white in the casting cost, can't be played until turn 4.
Examining them further is necessary to understand their fundamental roles in the deck.
Serendib Efreet does 1 damage per upkeep, so more often than not he's going on the agressive... he doesn't sit back to block. The 1 damage per upkeep in itself isn't too bad, but Confidant kinda makes me not want any more lifeloss.
Serra Avenger cannot come down until turn 4 but Serendib cannot come down until turn 3 anyway. The turn that it can come into play is highly irrelevant in this deck... and you would agree if you'd play this deck at least a handful of times. The double white cost is the biggest drawback, although I can usually manage. Costing 2 mana instead of 3 can be a good thing sometimes. It doesn't pitch to FoW, but it can block Goblin Piledriver. It lacks 1 point of toughness, though most removal besides Chain Lightning and Lightning Bolt will either kill both Serendib and Avenger, or neither, so I'm not too worried. Mother of Runes or countermagic can stop a Bolt if necessary. Vigilance is extremely impressive and the whole reason why I run Avenger.
if its soo sweet than why didn't you run it in the last d4d?
Because Serra Aevenger wasn't legal for the D4D. It had been released a few days prior and wasn't legal until Oct 20th. The tournament was on the 7th and 8th. I decided to run Azorius Guildmage rather than Serendib Efreet and it did well for me both days. Azorius Guildmage is still a good creature in this deck, I just like the Avenger a bit more. If ever there were extra spots available, I'd definitely fit some Guildmages into those slots.
Might try 2 counter and remove the maindeck needle but then I need to find board space for the 3rd needle. I like to have 3 needles against goblins and decks with wastelands.
I been liking serra avengers ever since I made the switch, there were a few cases where they got lightning bolted but for the most part they work out a little bit better then dibs since dibs damage adds up with confidant damage as well. especially if you don't get a jitte. Only thing was I had pimp arabian nights dibs.
How is 17 land working? I'm running 18 land 17 just seems like one too low.
17 Lands doing fine for me.
Also I board out 1 Land in the Mirror and against NQG, without having problems. Just try it, how it works out for you.
I think that a powerful creature like serendib is necessary, overcoat against aggro deck's(rg beats, fairie stompy...). It is true that the points of damage caused by the serendib, added to that of the confidant can be considerable, because of it, I believe that the incursion of two dibs would be more suitably.(like Fleury Laurent, starcitygames: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=19316
17 beast, with 4 meddeling, 4 cnfidant, 3 jotun, 2 serendib, 2 avenger and 2 mom it's the suitable quantity...
It's only an idea... that has not been proved.
Yes, but I can say that his english is like his spanish XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Alex_Van_R
G'day, all.
I've been playing this deck for a good long time now. Slightly tweaked for the meta in my area, but still, the same overall concept.
In regards to the Avenger vs. Serendib arguements. I'm going to have to go with Avenger. The first and foremost reason = Vigilent Jitte carrier. When this happens, the game might as well just start over. The thing with this deck, is that you have mother of runes. So, burn shouldn't be that large of an issue on your avenger. I mean, unless they've burnt every threat you've dropped. Mother is a house, and if Avenger gets a Jitte with an active mother, you effectively have a permanent 7/7. It's rather ridiculous.
I still can't find a reason to remove Ninja from the deck. Ninja of the deep hours just works well with the other creatures in this deck. You can swap with an avenger to almost gain the card. You can swap out confidant if you're getting low on life. You can swap out grunt to keep it alive, let your yard refill, and cast it again. I don't know if anyone has tested the deck with this in there, but it's uses are massive. It's also another card to pitch for Force early. Which in most cases, is a lot better to pitch than the other blue card in your hand (whether it be daze/stifle/mage).
Anyway. I haven't read all the pages of this thread, so I apologize if this has already been covered, but. It's a reasonable idea.
Though at the last tournament I played at, I found the deck that can just wreck this one. Affinity seemed to just plow over me. Too fast. And really, aside from getting a bomb in game two, that will answer their entire board, you just lose. Or so it seemed for me. I had good hands too. And then, I die, with absolutely nothing I can do.
I'm also finding it hard to believe that people think this deck has a hard game against goblins. In the last 4 tournaments I've played in, and in testing, I haven't lost a match to goblins in 12 tries now. 12 matches, I'm 12-0. You can basically tell them before the game starts that they'll win game one. And if they don't, there is no chance they can beat you.
+4 plague, +2 needle, +1 jitte, -3 serum vis, -3 duress, -1 ninja (in my case).
I don't see how if you keep any hand that has any threat, you can lose. I mean, it's just ridiuclous how badly they have to deal with plague against this deck. There are some decks that run plague that goblins can still plow through, however. This deck is not one of them. When I arrive at a tournament, I want to play goblins, rounds 1-x, simply because I do not see how this deck can lose to them. Especially if they don't know you're going to stifle their land drops, laughing that they lose a life, and pass their turn with no plays on no land.
And, for the record, 1st turn Duress, 2nd turn Meddling Mage, is the biggest slap in the face to any deck other than aggro I've ever seen. God they just get soooo pissed when they see that happen.
how does this deck seem to do against angel stompy? from the looks of it, it doesn't seem like the match-up is in fish's favor...what about farie stompy?..just wondering...ohh yea and I keep hearing about how this deck doesn't really have any problems with r/g beats? I play r/g beats and Ive never lost to a fish/landstill deck in my entire life...trol + rancor and or jitte = gg
The explosives are not very effective against r/g beats. The only thing that us can useful is perish(against 24-26 beats or more...uff :S)or the needles to aszeta and sofi.
I believe that this deck has many possibilities in legacy but his beats are too weak. Sincerely I think that rg beats is not a favorable match.
I've found Affinity to be an easy matchup in my experience and I would consider it favorable. They empty their hand fast with few ways to refill and most of what they drop isn't extremely amazing on it's own. Ornithopter, for example, is crap on its own. As long as you keep Ravager, Atog, and Cranial Plating off the table, you won't have too many problems. That's not really too hard considering the deck has Meddling Mage, Countermagic, StP/Duress, Pithing Needles in the board, and Serenity's in the board. Myr Enforcer can sometimes be a problem but Grunt can trade with him. Mother of Runes is, more or less, worthless in this matchup and I usually board them out. Serenity is cruel and unusual punishment. I also board in the 3rd Jitte... I've wrecked Affinity everytime I've played it and got Jitte active. They sometimes get very explosive starts and win off of that but that doesn't usually happen. This matchup is at least 60/40 preboard and only gets better postboard. You say the Goblins matchup is easy but you think Affinity is hard... we have totally opposite assesments.
Angel Stompy is a very hard matchup for this deck. I'm not sure I'd necessarily say it's unfavorable, but it's not better than 50/50. Post board it gets a little better when bringing in the 3rd Jitte and possibly Serenity, Engineered Explosives, and/or Pithing Needle. It's still a difficult match though. I've beaten Angel Stompy before but I've also lost to it. At the D4D, I played both 3c Angel Stompy and Mono White Angel Stompy. I went 2-0 vs 3 AS and 2-1 vs Mono White AS. On MWS, I win some and I lose some.
I think Faerie Stompy is a tad easier. They are more explosive but they are also much less consistent. An early game StP can really wreck them sometimes and so can Daze. They have mana consistency issues and they tend to empty their hand very fast. The biggest problems this deck has against Faerie Stompy is the equipment and Chalice. Engineered Explosives and Serenity come in and usually do a good job at keeping them off the table, although that's not always the case. This matchup is probably around 50/50 as well, at least preboard, but I have found it easier than Angel Stompy by a little bit. Post board, the matchup obviously gets a little better, though I'm not sure if it's favorable or not. I haven't done a ton of testing vs Faerie Stompy... but then again, Faerie Stompy isn't a very popular deck.
As far as G/R Beats goes, I usually win this one way more often than I lose to it. 2/2's and 3/3's aren't bad but they tend to run out of gas easily. Duress is great here, since it draws out their burn/removal, and Mother of Runes makes this matchup much easier. Unless they can nail me really bad early on, I don't usually lose this matchup. Obviously their Jitte will be one of the main focuses for my countermagic, supposing I draw any. The 3rd Jitte comes in game 2 and makes it easier too... especially since I have a draw engine and cantrip to ensure that I see mine first/more often. Sometimes I board in Perish or Engineered Explosives, depending on their build. Either way, I've never had serious problems with this matchup. Maybe the UWb Fish players you played against either sucked with the deck or didn't have it tuned very well to handle aggro.
I don't really think my beats are that weak either. Avenger is a 3/3 and Grunt is a 4/4, while Meddling Mage and Dark Confidant are pretty good aggro when Mother of Runes is on the table. I may not run as much muscle as Threshold does but my beats are around the same size as those found in Angel Stompy (aside from Exalted) and G/R Beats.
Either way though, how popular are those decks? I really don't expect to see a whole lot of those matchups at a large tournament. I'd rather have worse randomness matchups than worse Tier 1 matchups anyway. I saw Angel Stompy a total of 2 times at the 2-day D4D (and the 3c AS is alot less aggressive), I saw 0 Faerie Stompy (I think there was only 1 Faerie Stompy deck at the whole thing), and 0 G/R beats (not sure how many G/R Beats were played, if any). This is what the metagame will typically look like at most big events, at least in the U.S.
Alright. Maybe I was just unlucky as hell, to see turn one thopter + mantle, and turn two, I saw thoughtcast, and turn 3 brought down ravager and plating, then atog, on turn 4, and I was dead due to fling on turn 5. There were just too many threats fast for me to ever have a chance of dealing with them all. Oh well. As per usual, I dominated everyone else around.
Perhaps we just play the deck a little differently, to cater to the matchups at hand, as you said. I find goblins a joke with this deck, every time. Stifle is just too much against goblins. They empty their hand, you stifle ringleader, and then they have nothing left. And you can still be in a dominant place. Especially with a well placed mage on turn 3 or 4.
I also have had no trouble with the R/G beats I've faced with this deck. The thing is, is that jitte will never be a factor, since we maindeck them as well, so it's basically a 2 colorless "destroy target jitte" in our case, and aside from that, Avenger is a house. 3/3 vigilent flier will definitely cause some problems for r/g beats, Especially once a mother gets online. Then again, whoever gets the better hand, should win out. Fish's job, is to answer all its problems in the first 4-5 turns, then start pounding face and gaining card advantage. Once things get working, it's tough to shut it down.
I find affinity to be highly draw dependent, sometimes they just get the nuts your dead draw and there really isn't much you can do about it unless you have just the right hand to deal with it. Other times though affinity is very beatable
I haven't seen angel stompy or faerie stompy at my local shop. I haven't been to a big tourney in awhile tho and online testing is highly random.
I do see alot of goblins though which I have a good mach up against.
2 counter seems good so far but only 2 needle in the board is meh. needle is so good against goblins. big question is how to fit in another needle in the board :(
current board
2 pithing needle (goblins mostly)
2 disenchant (enchantments/artifacts)
3 duress (combo)
2 engineered explosives (aggro)
4 engineered plague (goblins)
2 serenity (affinity)
You can drop a Disenchant for a 3rd Needle. Many times, Pithing Needle to artifacts/enchantments like Engineered Plague is to Goblins... in that, it does the job and keeps on doing it rather than being just a 1 time effect like Tivadar's Crusade.
Of course Needle doesn't work against every artifact/enchantment, but 2 Serenity's in the board is enough for them already. I don't even run Disenchants in my sideboard.
only problem about serenity is it blows up my jitte if I have one thats why I had disenchants. I primarily bring in Serenity against affinity in which case it wipes their board so I don't care if I had to blow up my Jitte. Considering trying 3 needle 4 duress in the board removing the 2 disenchant but they are nice to have and I usually board out 3 stifle for duress assuming I am on the draw against combo or control.