@Jaynel, I find 10 to be the best number of dredgers. 8 is definately too little, and 12 would be awsome if we had the room.
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@Jaynel, I find 10 to be the best number of dredgers. 8 is definately too little, and 12 would be awsome if we had the room.
Is there a reason for this random and unprovoked flame that doesn't warrant a report to the moderators for its adolescence and inability to articulate anything of actual worth?Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesomator
On to something constructive, I think it's important to use at least a full set of Golgari Thug, i.e. at least 12 Dredgers, in order to be certain that the deck has the odds it needs to draw at least 2 Dredgers for the LED/Deep Analysis play and simultaneously support Ichorid's with enough gas to be a reliable win condition. In this sense, I feel that Dredgers should get the nod over Street Wraith because of their general necessity for fueling the deck's explosive plays and the possibility that the Street Wraith isn't objectively doing anything the deck vitally needs.
How are Putrid Imps working out with only 4 ways of actually casting them?
Calling you a turd is probably his way of saying changing the deck into Übermadness is a bad idea. I hope you dont get offended by being called a turd. Its not like he called you a turd-sandwich or a turd-burgler. Just a turd.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Putrid Imp is very hard for me to cast right now so Im thinking of dropping them again and going with additional Carefull Studies. A slot is basically needed to just get the ball rolling. Blue needs to be primary due to Coliseum.
Tolarian Winds I actually want to try sbing against decks not running counterspells. Its just not worth it otherwise. It helps dredge a massive amount early against goblins to focus on a Dread Return Troll win or multiple Ichorid attacks. Bridge from Below can maybe come out for it. It doesnt seem like we'd be able to keep it out well enough, or is that course of action still reliable? Ive been testing mostly against Thresh; and btw Tarmagoyf is a serious threat to this deck.
Somebody should upgrade this to the open forum.
BTW Street Wraith is at his absolute best in this deck. I dont understand how you can climb into a belcher thread and declare it the king of cards when here it has the most functionallity.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
The decks most basic play is to play and activate LED with SW's on the stack. Dredging your first couple guys this way for free is key. Every 'draw a card' in this deck powers it up. The only other 'free' dredge you have in the deck is your draw phase and we're aiming for manaless remember?
Lets not forget how much better it is to revive an Ichorid with SW rather than Stinkweed and Thug.
Because in Belcher Street Wraith is better than the cards its replacing, while in Mana-Less Ichorid it's removing cards that have an equal or abstract comparitive value such as Shambling Shell, Ashen Ghoul, Tolarian Winds, Zombie Infestation, Putrid Imp, Unmask, Force of Will etc. It's a lot more difficult to include Street Wraith in a deck where Street Wraith is replacing a card that could be objectively better even if it isn't directly comparable. I understand that Street Wraith is a perfectly good card, but it's absolutely the last card I would add until I was certain that the rest of the deck's needs were met.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Did you read anything I posted or did you just scurry to a counter arguement? I understand your reasoning for including it in a belcher list. But do you understand the reason why its actually functional in this deck? The free dredge is irriplacable. When the decks goal is to maximize the threat density and dredge capacity the card only compliments your strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Unmask and Force are terrible in the deck. I wouldnt want to add 4 Forces over draw spells or therapies since both are more synergistic to the deck. Therapy allows you to trigger Bridge and put Narcomeabas to good use. I wouldnt want to pitch Deep Anal to Force and I feel the same for Breakthrough. The decks goal is to pitch its hand with LED which completely backhands the strategy of holding force for the key spell.
Zombie Infestation and Tolarian Winds are generally too slow for the deck at this point. We have better options (LED, Bridge).
Shambling Shell is absolutely terrible. Theres a small chance you can actually cast Thug and Stinky to get back Street Wraith or chump block something big. Shambling would be dredger 13-16 which is unneeded and worse than the other 3 options.
Ashen Ghoul is terrible in the deck. He's situational, slow, and requires mana. You realize Ichorid isnt even the primary win condition anymore?
As far as I can see the only cards that have a chance of making it are Dryad Arbor, Carefull Study, Cephalid Sage, Putrid Imp, and Lotus Petal.
This deck is far from ready for Open.
@Bane
I agree with all of your points, except the one about Careful Study over Putrid Imp. Sure, you can cast Study off of 8 out of 10 lands, but it's only a one shot deal. Putrid Imp is AMAZING because it's a discard outlet that can be used over and over again. I've found myself Dread Returning a Putrid Imp just so I can have a steady discard outlet on the table. Pitch a dude during upkeep to give the PImp flying, then dredge in draw step is such a good play, especially when you can do it for a few turns until you get better options in your yard (i.e. Flashback DA or just win with tons of hasty 3/3s). Breakthrough is a good enough "Careful Study" for this deck if you're interested in one-shot deals to dump some cards in the yard and maybe dredge. Imp also gets Threshold really fast and gets in for some damage in the early game. Sure, you won't always have PImp and a black mana source, but if you don't then you probably have better plays in hand. PImp can always feed Ichorid once it gets discarded or dredged.
To summarize in a neat pros and cons column:
Pros:
Putrid Imp
Cons:
Careful Study
Okay, seriously. Here it is:
+ Putrid Imp:
Swings for 2
Multiple discards
Incredibly useful in the early game
Moderate use in the late game
Feeds Ichorid
- Putrid Imp
No draw effects = no dredging
Need black mana to play
+ Careful Study
Cast off of blue mana
Draw effects = dredge
Incredibly useful in the early game
- Careful Study
Does absolutely nothing in the graveyard
Useless in the late game
One time discard effect
I think PImp is the right choice.
You missed the point, I wasn't advocating that those cards should replace Street Wraith, but that there are other cards to consider in Street Wraith's place and that the answer isn't as clear cut as you would make it seem. Under the premise that the point of Street Wraith is to maximize the deck's Dredge capacity, is there really a clear indication that it's superior to Shambling Shell or Cephalid Sage at Dredging or Careful Study at setting up your Dredge?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
You realize that what I'm getting at when I say that a hand that has GGT and Street Wraith isn't necessarily as good as a hand with GGT and Thug when you are popping LED/DA, right?
Im sorry I thought you were recommending other cards for the Street Wraith slot and still seem to be. Where do you get the idea he needs to go? None of us have been complaining about him in the deck. Infact he's MvP if you ask me.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
He maximizes dredge capacity because he draws a card for free, letting you do other things with your mana such as cast Breakthough or activate Coliseum. Stuffing 16 dredge creatures into the deck wont make it work better, you'll just get stuck with too many and no business spells. Chephalid Sage needs to be in the bin already and get Dread Returned to be of any use. A turn one staple dredge enabler is far more important and I see no need to further debate his automatic inclusion as a four of.
A hand with GGT and SW is much better than GGT + Thug hand. With GGT/Thug you pop LED and discard them then either wait till your next draw phase or hopefully had a Deep Anal as well. A hand with GGT + SW can immediatly dredge 6 cards by putting the SW on the stack and popping LED. You'll usually chain into several dredge cards this way anyways.
I've been trying a version of this deck out on MWS, and to me it seems horribly inconsistent compared to just regular Friggorid. I mean sure if you draw LED, DA, dredger and u get LED and DA to resolve sure ull prolly win turn 1-2, but even with Serum powder to find LED/DA I dont see how this deck is consistent at all too often I have to mull to oblivion. Maybe its the list i was running (mine was similar to what is on the first post). Some other versions here that add more mana and 1 CC spells/Imps seem like theyre trying to do too much with both Friggorid like stuff and LED, seems like you would be better off playing Friggorid. Am I missing something?
I never I said that I thought that Street Wraith should be removed from the deck, I said that I don't think that Street Wraith should be the first card in the deck, and it's not clear to me that he's better than the alternatives. I don't think that Dredger + Street Wraith is better than 2xDredger tho', because with an average Dredge of 5 there's a strong chance that you'll miss another Dredger in your discard pile and that Dredger may miss a Dredger etc. Shambling Shell has really saved my ass in numerous instances because of his odd Dredge, and that's the reason I'm really hesitant to cut him. Your mileage may very, but I think getting 2 Dredgers in your hand is more important than getting a Dredger and a Street Wraith with the way the original deck was built.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Um, not necessarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
With a hand of LED/Deep Analysis/Wraith/GGT, you can do the following:
1. Play LED
2. Announce the cycling Street Wraith.
3. Crack the LED in response to the cycle, floating blue mana and discarding Golgari Grave-Troll Deep Analysis.
4. Dredge the Golgari Grave-Troll off the Street Wraith's trigger, rolling you six cards into your graveyard. Chances are you'll roll into at least one more dredger off this.
5. Play Deep Analysis, dredging if you got the extra dude.
BreathWeapon perhaps you'd like to reveil your list to us. Im curious to see what it looks like if its running 13+ dredge creatures. You dont really need to dredge other dredge cards into the bin as much as just business cards and this is why we use SW so effectivly. He allows for the earliest possible dredging. Theres a huge difference between starting a game with and without him.
What do you guys think about Phantasmagorian? He helps you discard everything and rfg's to Ichorid.
phantasmagorian is decent, but I doubt it's better than any of the slots currently in. Good job breathweapon.. Street Wraith shouldn't be the first card in the deck.. bridge from below should be.
This is the rough list I'm using,Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Underground Sea
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dread Return
4 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 (Open)
And from there I shift the open slots in between Shambling Shells, Street Wraiths, Cephalid Sage/Flame Kin Zealot to figure out what's the best Dredge card in that slot.
@ BreathWeapon: I was playing a list very similar to yours today on MWS with pretty good success, but I was wondering why there are 4 Underground Sea, wouldn't they just be better off as Islands so wasteland doesn't hurt as much? the only use I can see black mana having is MAYBE hardcast cabal therapy once in a while but that seems like a really desperate situation to be in, almost worse than EOT discard on urself, altho you could use on opponent too...Is there any black in yalls sideboard or are the Useas just in there for therapy?
I don't care if the opponent Wastelands the land, because as long as that land resolved Breakthrough, it did its job against Goblins. I do care that if I have a Cabal Therapy in hand, I can cast it to protect the outlet from Force of Will as opposed to discard/dredging and letting my opponent find a Jotun Grunt or Tormod's Crypt.
So I guess to sum it up, what is Wasteland hurting?
I was thinking maybe you would want it to stay around if you drew a hand with Land, Coliseum, Careful Study, in some cases wasteland could inhibit you from activating the Coliseum turn 2, or in some rare cases for the cause of flashing back DA with 2 lands. I guess these situations would come up even less often than Therapy being useful from the hand, so maybe it is worth it.
Ive been using Therapy on myself quite a bit. Sometimes Ill get stuck with 2 Bridge in my hand or have my Grave Trolls in hand with Dread Return ready to get him into play. Being able to actually cast it is more significant than Wasteland.
Meddling Mage on Deep Analysis hurts this deck alot. Heres my updated ever changing list yet again..
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Underground Sea
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough
2 Putrid Imp
1 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Dread Return
4 Deep Analysis
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Street Wraith
Im testing Chrome Mox over more lands and petals since theyre perm mana sources and still allow you to activate Coliseum turn one. Its usefull to imprint Narcomeabas and such. The couple extra Putrid Imps are nice discard outlets. Still not sold on this list tho. =/
Breakthrough is in my list over Tolarian Winds now. Its a solid turn one play - a One With Nothing plus four cards from the top of your library. It gets even nuttier when LED is involved, because you get to dredge a LOT on your first turn. If you can get LED + Breakthrough and any dredger on turn 1, you're looking at a turn 2-3 win.
My list now:
Manas:
4 Underground Sea
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Polluted Delta
Men:
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
Dredgers:
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Golgari Thug
Draw that never actually draws:
4 Street Wraith
4 Deep Analysis
4 Breakthrough
Holy fuck why did they print these :
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
Sideboard/Anti Graveyard Hate:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Reverent Silence
3 Emerald Charm
2 Tropical Island
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wooded Foothills
I've gotten rid of Dryad Arbors maindeck. They kinda suck, actually. They're good in Vintage because you literally NEVER pay mana for a spell. This deck needs a good turn 1 play that involves blue or black mana, and Dryad Arbor was never able to provide it. I was always unhappy whenever I had a great hand... but only Arbor as a mana source. So, the manabase has been adjusted accordingly to maximize the availability of blue and black mana on turn 1.
I run 10 Dredgers (6-5-4, obv) and I feel a lot more comfortable. I very rarely whiff when I go to dredge. When I was running 8, I'd sometimes go in on a Deep Anal with only one dredge guy in the yard, and end up having to draw a card with Deep Analysis (which, undoubtedly, was always Golgari Grave-Troll). Now my hands start with at least one Dredger and I can feel reasonable certain that another one will be in the next few cards.
Thats about it. It would be nice to fit in another FKZ, but it's not a high priority. I've sometimes had to dig really deep to get him into the yard. It's sometimes a pain in the ass, but I'm just bitching. It's not a huge issue.
I already talked about Breakthrough. It dodges Daze and stupid stuff like that. Its effect isn't optimal obviously, but I see no better option for a 1cc slot. Careful Study is a shitty version of this card. If Careful Study discarded then drew, it would most likely be in over this.
Serum Powder, in my opinion, still sucks the big one. I really don't think it's the right direction to be going with this deck.
On another note, I was going through one of my boxes yesterday and I found a Golgari Thug and a Flame-Kin Zealot. That 2 less really narrow cards that I need for this deck. Sweet.
What are your sideboards ?
I would play something like this :
4*Leyline otV (because fanatic is a pain)
4*Chain of vapor (because Leyline is a pain)
4*Needle (because tormod is a pain)
3*island (because I don't play enough lands to play answers)
Ive been testing the two most important matchups (Thresh + Gobs) quite a bit. Heres my developed list..
4 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Dread Return
1 Flame Kin Zealot
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Deep Analysis
3 Breakthrough
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomeaba
4 Street Wraith
4 LED
4 Underground Sea
1 Polluted Delta
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Cephalid Coliseum
My list is extremely close to Jaynels right now. I have a different land, one more dredger, and I maindeck Leyline over Imps.
Leyline became key to matchups since it basically allows you to slow roll into an innevitable win. We were testing a version of Thresh that had Counterbalance to hit Therapy and Pyroclasm to deal with Zombies. They still stood no chance. I got turn 2 and 3 kills when LED resolved, turn 4-5 when it didnt. You can really slow down Mongoose with Leyline altho Tarmagoyf is still a threat. I can often throw Narcomeabas and Zombies in his way till I animate an army.
Goblins became far better since Bridge cant be removed however I have a lack of lackey answers since Im not running Putrid Imp. Honestly though I have no problem going to 8 cards and discarding to get the game in motion. The fact Bridge stays is so so key.
Here's my sb at the moment..
3 Pithing Needle
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Blazing Archon
1 Sundering Titan
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Unmask
Chalice and Unmask take care of combo while Chalice and Needle hit Crypt. Chain of Vapor is my only answer to Leyline but this deck is so broken Ill rightfully take the unfavorable Leyline when I see it.
Im beginning to have second thoughts about Serum Powder actually. Ive been playing with the card alot in belcher and its use is mirrored in this deck. Getting the LED hand will just win you the game usually.
Ive also contemplated a singleton One with Nothing just for laughs because its literally playable..
I just won a tournament with the deck Sunday.
Round 1 Stax
This is a necroling we brought with us who I lent geddon stax. I went 2-0 against him in playtesting before we got paired for our game. He turns around and kicks my ass in the real tourny by dropping early Ghostly Prisons and killing me with Magus and Duskrider Peregrines.
Round 2 Boros
I can tell his deck sucks and only worry about getting Leyline going. I start with it both games and Ichorids and Zombies kill him easily. Game 2 I do it again with some help from Darkblast.
Round 3 Thresh
This is my gf Jessi playing playing a new version of thresh with counterbalance and the gofy. Shes prepared for Empty the Warrens and my zombies by making a small splash for Pyroclasm. I still take both games, but the second was close when I was at 8 about to die from 2 7/8 goyfs. Hes so big against us..
Round 4 Stax
Its the same kid. This time I womp him easy game one. Game two he dropps a Ghostly Prison. I combo into Dread Return to get a 9/9 troll. I sadly start to you my draw phase the way its intended to get some mana. I dredge back a Dakmor Salvage and draw into an underground a couple turns later. Then he drops a Tabernacle at Pendrel Vale. I sadly keep drawing cards. 2 more and I see another land. 5-6 attack phases and chump blocks later the troll does the job.
I split for 1st/2nd with my teammate playing Death and Taxes.
I have been getting better results with Ashen Ghouls and Nether Shadows over Narcomoeba and Golgari Thug.
I also found a full complement of Breakthrough and Careful study more relevant than a way to keep going once you get going (Deep Analysis is quite mana-hungry as well).
Am I overlooking something and playing the deck wrong?
Which of you was playing Bound in Silence?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
What about running "The Tabernacle at the Pendrell Vale"?
Killing your own Tokens is not the way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJones
Also it doesn't make mana, so it has no synergy at all.
Lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Illissius
I'm sure now that leyline MD is the way to go. It will probably slow your opponent more than you and it prevents you from losing on a fanatic.
Ok they were 6/7's they did see all the 'classic' card types.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
MD Leyline is so huge its basically all you need against aggro decks. Its also a nice foil to Iggy, Loam, and Reanimator.
Tabernacle sucks since it kills your zombies. If you want a gimicky land add Dryad Arbor or Mishras Factory. Both can flashback Dread Return and Therapy. Arbor is obviously the way to go if your playing green enchantment hate.
@Iranon
Its very possible your miss playing or keeping mediocre cards. I did this for a while actually. It can be easy to misplay.
First pick up either my, Jaynel, or Awesomator's build. All are solid, I think the differences are mostly preference. Try to find yourself hands that look like..
1 LED
1 Deep Analysis
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Golgari Thug
3 ?
Hands like this are elementary. Drop your land and LED; sac for 3 blue discarding your hand, flashback the DA to start dredging.
1 Underground Sea
1 Breakthrough/Street Wraith
1 Golgari Grave Troll
4 ?
When this is all there is to start with Ill often draw my card and go to my discard phase. Get the fatty in the tank then start with a dredge next upkeep or start a dredge up immediately with a Street Wraith.
2 LED
1 Breakthrough
1 Coliseum
1 Golgari Grave Troll
2 ?
These are the super broken hands you always want. Whether or not LED gets FoW'ed you have another one. If Chalice for zero is out you still have Breakthrough to start you off. In this particular example you can start with your land and LEDs, put Breakthrough on the stack and sac an LED so you start your Breakthrough draws with a dredge.
2 Street Wraith
1 Golgari Grave Troll
1 Deep Analysis
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Underground Sea
1 ?
These are nice hands as long as you know what your doing. Rather than mindlessly cycle into nothing sit on 8 cards and discard the troll on discard phase. Altho you'll feel like a fool sitting doing nothing for 1-2 turns your street wraiths will accelerate the lost dredging quite easily.
1 LED
1 Street Wraith
1 Leyline
1 Gravetroll
3 ?
Ill usually keep a hand like this too. You get your leyline opener and you have an outlet for your whole hand. Start by playing LED then crack it with your SW cycle on the start to get the troll dredged.
The more games you play the more comfortable you'll start to feel with hands and realize your plays easier.
Ashen Ghouls just wont do anymore. Your aiming for manaless so you cant depend on having black mana for him to recur. Its also a problem getting him stacked under other creatures, likewise for Nether Shadow. You dont get to choose what you dredge your already gambling, having to rely on the order of your dredging is even worse.
Also Ichorid is a total backup plan now. Bridge is the real contender.
Hope that helps a little.
For your consideration, here is a list that took first place at a large German tourney:
Main Deck
4 Breakthrough
1 Cephalid Sage
4 Deep Analysis
4 Narcomoeba
1 Wonder
4 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return
2 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Dakmor Salvage
4 Underground Sea
4 Watery Grave
Sideboard
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
That single Wonder could be really techy.
Wow, almost my exact list. I was using fetches over Grave, but still.
I think the sideboard absolutely needs some way to deal with enchantments other than bounce. I can think of 4 enchantments off the top of my head that totally hose this deck (in 3 different colors too).
Cabal therapy should be a four of.
Why is this still in N/D?
Because IBA didnt post it. Maybe PR will move it for us? I just took another tournament with the deck this weekend. Maybe that will help.Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
Round 1
R/g Goblins
Game 1 I get Leyline and win easily on turn 3.
Game 2 I suspect Crypt and bring in 3 Needle 4 Chalice.
Gobs opens with Crypt, Chalice@0, Lackey. I lose after a short struggle.
Game 3 I win turn 1.
Round 2
Death and Taxes
Pete wins every tournament he brings this deck to but Ive got a good game against it. I see nothing both games, he has super necro tech which hoses my strategy.
One of these games I mull to 4 or so. Lame.
I just need to win the rest.. This is the first non Belcher/TES deck thats beaten me with this deck. Fuckin D&T.
Round 3
Brain fart.. I forget but I trounced it, Ill get back to you.
Top 4
Im very happy I avoided the 2 stax decks since Ghostly Prison = scoop.
Round 4
Fuckin Brian playing U/G Madness
Both games were easy. Zombies beat the shit out of everything. Game one was elementary. I combo into a huge grave troll and like 4 zombies.
Game 2 He opens up with 2 Crypts (im on draw with Chalice in hand =( )
I apply a little pressure by going to 8 cards and tossing stinky in the bin. I dredge into a bridge and ichorid. I give slow beats till he crypts. I do it again and he crypts again. Then I dump the LED into play and unload my hand and win.
Ichorid is broken. Playing through 2 Tormod's Crypts? WTF!?!
Yes, fellow team aYb member Florian "FlodO" Fischer just went undefeated (6-0-1 in the Swiss) in a 74 people tournament in Dülmen, Germany (http://www.trader-online.de/turniere...7-07-T15.html).
He didn't do much testing before the tournament, just some brainstorming with the lists that we discussed on the aYb forums. The deck is extremely strong.
How are you actually playing tolarian winds turn 1? I don't see any mana accel for you to cast it turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaynel
He's saying, Breakthrough is a solid turn 1 play.Quote:
Originally Posted by zulander
I don't know how to read apparently. I thought he was saying he had a breakthrough in his list and that breakthrough was tolarian winds. Lol...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldariel
What does your list look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bane of the Living
Moved to open. Decklist is fairly optimized, and has shown good placings in large events as well as more localized events in Mass.
(In the future, rather than whining about a deck being in N&D, you could PM a mod or admin and ask for it to be moved.)