[Deck] TarmoTog!

I'm toying with both decklists (original by gowensjengen and by hanni).
I found a feeling of "slowness", I mean compared threshold we have an higher casting cost with deed + intuition, the last is very key for the deck to work.
I thought about throwing in some mox diamonds, but they require:
1) more lands, more slot to "manabase" so we lose something
2) not so sexy with pernicious deed.

Smother is ok, together with deed we have a removal for everything. So UGb is ok for me.

As regards mongrel I think this:
1) often I play intuition for loam-wonder-genesis, they give me genesis, and I need a discard engine. Genesis works from graveyard, out there would be plowed.
2) daze replace mongrel in a more controllish.... it's a good card, and with 4 duress sideboard can do some disruption to combo.

Explosives:
Often Cret belcher play all the hand for say 14 goblin turn 1. It's the only out against them, other than playing diamond for a turn 2 deed or having a force active.

Sure the deck ha potential but it's a bit slow and has few counters compared to threshold...

The reduced combo matchup, when compared to thresh, is more than tolerable if your meta has hand/board control decks (truffle, landstill, etc.) since your creatures recur; threshold's don't. You also have a better chance of out-pacing survival decks.

Mox diamond is not at all possible, but not because of deed. You need at least 22 (or so) lands to run them, plus the moxen themselves. That cuts a total of 8 or 9 useful cards from this deck (including potential tutor targets).

Mongrel is only needed to pitch genesis if you don't have gigapede, which should be in your pile. Really, there are two intuition splits you want: gigs, genesis, and wonder; or loam, coliseum, __. That __ will change based on your deck/what you need. Another great split is deed, deed, deed or FoW, FoW, FoW in a pinch.

The creature split is for if you already have a bunch of creatures (in play/dead), as it gives you a beater, a way of bringing your dudes back, and a way of using your creatures to finish off the game.

The loam/land split is for regaining control of the game, or for getting to spells you really need asap. IE, if you need combo protection use this split to set up a draw engine (or trip FoW I guess), or if you have a puny psychatog this can make it a threat. The extra card can be variable. If you run wasteland, you can get it. Or, grab a genesis. If they give it to you, dredge loam for some fuel for later (if genesis hits the bin, like, from coliseum) and cast loam. You then have a 4/4 in hand, that they don't want to kill, as well. Not too bad. If they give you loam...what are they stupid?

Anyway, this is pretty much theory as I haven't had a chance to test much at all, so ppl can tell me if I'm way off, but that's how I would play the tutors.

Of course, this gets back to the 'mongrel or no' debate. I, for one, am an advocate for keeping them if only to speed up the deck (since yeah, it's pretty slow).

What would this deck look like if the loam engine was dropped, by the way? The mana would be a tiny bit better, and the loam could be a stinkweed imp to preserve dredge but improve genesis...well, maybe that would just be a worse version, nevermind.

Holy crap, long post!

Even with Mongrels in the deck, I usually played aggro for at most two turns. On turn 3, against pretty much every deck, I wasn't playing more threats, but rather casting Intuition for dredgers/Incarnations/Gigapede.

IMO, Mongoose and Goyf both clearly deserve a spot in the deck, both because they're so darn difficult to get rid of. But Mongrels and Psychatogs are far less critical to the deck.

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Originally Posted by slyfer

Explosives:
Often Cret belcher play all the hand for say 14 goblin turn 1. It's the only out against them, other than playing diamond for a turn 2 deed or having a force active.

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Depends on which version of the deck/sideboard you're going with, but my own still has Crime/Punishment in the board, which deals with EtW tokens just as easily as Explosives does. It's a little better, actually, in that it can't get hit by Pithing Needle, and it's harder to hit with Chalice.

The real problem with CRET Belcher and storm combo in general is Tendrils of Agony, which is a lot harder to stop if it's not chained off of Ill-Gotten Gains.

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Sure the deck ha potential but it's a bit slow and has few counters compared to threshold...

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It runs about 3-4 counters less than your typical Threshold build, yes. On the other hand, it's got more pro-active solutions (like Deed, for example) that don't actually need to be in your hand to be effective. I feel that it's an even tradeoff.


By the way, I've been testing the post-Lorwyn maindeck with Portent and Shriekmaw, and it's awesome! Sshriekmaw is an excellent complement to Smother, especially since he can be recurred and Evoked for the same cost as casting a Gigapede. Ponder is also proving itself more than worthy of its inclusion over Serum Visions, especially since it makes the decision to dredge that much easier. I'm really loving these two small changes.

I just want to point out that I'm very excited to see that a VERY similar list made ninth at a fairly large tournament in Japan recently (http://f18.aaa.livedoor.jp/~nameless...C_29th_E.html). Granted, a lot of the decks being played there were weird/sub-optimal, but it's still nice to see that a similar list managed to do well. The list was the following:

4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Barren Moor
1 Lonely Sandbar
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Brainstorm
3 Gifts Ungiven
1 Life from the Loam
1 Smother
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
3 Cunning Wish

1 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal Witness
2 Psychatog
4 Tarmogoyf

SB:

1 Seedtime
1 Plagiarize
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Hideous Laughter
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Constant Mists
1 Teferi's Response
1 Stifle
1 Forbid
1 Misdirection
1 Krosan Grip
4 Extirpate


As you can see, it's very similar: Replace Stronghold with Genesis and Gifts with Intuition, and you've almost got TarmoTog. The creature package is smaller, but still based around Tarmogoyf and Psychatog. Clearly, s/he opted for a larger control package. S/he is also using some ideas that were considered at one point or another in the deck's history: cycling lands and Wishes foremost among them, but even Coliseum, Shriekmaw and Witness recursion, etc.. I don't want to be arrogant enough to say that this person's deck is based on my own, but the similarities are striking; our concepts are very similar. Looking at it and its placement, however, I definitely think that my own list presents a stronger option overall (at least in the generalized internet Legacy metagame) due to its much more aggressive component. Anyway, enough stroking my ego: congratulations are in order for a high placement with a very similar list, regardless of the weird metagame.

I mentioned this list because I think that it reaffirms many of the choices that I've made in building the deck, but also because lately I've been wondering whether I should include Volrath's Stronghold in the maindeck or SB to combat Genesis-hate. My own inclination is to say no, since it would both eat our draws as well as dilute an already tenuous manabase.

Just for reference, here's the list that I'm running (with, might I add, great success--all I need is some kind of local Legacy scene):

3 Windswept heath
3 Polluted delta
3 Tropical island
2 Underground sea
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Eternal witness
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Shriekmaw

4 Force of will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Pernicious deed
2 Smother
2 Extirpate
1 Life from the loam


SB: (This one's very much a metagame choice, but a good general sideboard.)

1 Extirpate
1 Tundra
2 Pithing Needle
3 Crime/Punishment
4 Stifle
4 Cabal Therapy/Duress


I've got to say that I'm so very, very impressed with Shriekmaw. The added possibility of aggression is nice, but what's even better is that he easily avoids Counterbalance--although Stifle can be a problem. I've been wondering about increasing their number, but I'm not sure if that's a wise decision, metagame considerations aside.

I really like the japanese list. Cause it's more towards controll (my playstyle)

What I wonder is if all those wish targets are actually needed and if wish is even needed for that matter.

Also I like gifts more because of gaining 2 card. This could also just be my Controll player talking there.

Is the combo matchup good enough with only force and counterspell. Isn't some sort of discard needed?

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Originally Posted by Waikiki

Also I like gifts more because of gaining 2 card. This could also just be my Controll player talking there.

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Two cards is sweet, but the problem that I have with it--even in that list--is that all of those cards must have different names, which prevents you from using what Bardo has so eloquently called the "Oh Shituition" (grabbing three of any card--usually Force or Deed--because otherwise you'll die). Four mana also means that it's going to come online a turn slower, which is unfortunate. The increased land count will help, but it's worth remembering that a number of those lands come into play tapped, and you usually just want to cycle them.

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Is the combo matchup good enough with only force and counterspell. Isn't some sort of discard needed?

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I agree: I don't think it's enough. I think that list clearly sacrificed a stronger combo matchup for a stronger general aggro matchup--and if we look at the other decks there, combo didn't exactly have a strong showing. Even my build has some issues with combo, and it runs (when you include the SB) 12 disruption pieces plus 6 cards to deal with EtW tokens, and a possible three more disruption pieces against graveyard-based combo.

I don't think we should get too hung up on that list, simply because it was gunning for a vastly different metagame. If you want to go the control route it's a good example, but I feel that it runs too many sweeper effects for anything like the "current online metagame" (by which I mean the metagame promoted by The Source and other sites). Also, I think that a Wishboard is simply too distracting--it's a cool thing, sure, but not game-winning. Besides, Intuition is basically Cunning Wish here. If you're bent on running Wishes, Living Wish will be better for you because it will get solutions for problematic matchups (Tabernacle/Maze of Ith/Glacial Chasm, Yixlid Jailor/Withered Wretch, etc.--plus it could nab whatever Swords to Plowshares removes), and it will do it a turn faster. By the way, I think that even the control-ish build could use Gigapede. He's my big game-breaker; I don't know how I managed without it.

I'm testing a deck similar (counters to control hand, and pernicious deed to control the board) but with 4 tarmagoyf 3 tombstalker (and i have also 2 slot more for other creatures).

the rest of the deck is fow, snare, stifle, counter, cunning wish, smother, braisntorm and 3 fact or fiction.

It's like tarmohold in extended

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Originally Posted by Goaswerfraiejen

Just for reference, here's the list that I'm running (with, might I add, great success--all I need is some kind of local Legacy scene):

3 Windswept heath
3 Polluted delta
3 Tropical island
2 Underground sea
2 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Wasteland

4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Wild mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Eternal witness
1 Genesis
1 Gigapede
1 Wonder
1 Shriekmaw

4 Force of will
4 Intuition
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Pernicious deed
2 Smother
2 Extirpate
1 Life from the loam


SB: (This one's very much a metagame choice, but a good general sideboard.)

1 Extirpate
1 Tundra
2 Pithing Needle
3 Crime/Punishment
4 Stifle
4 Cabal Therapy/Duress

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I honostley have been in desperate need of green a couple times, has this ever been a problem?

I haven't been able to give your version a spin yet, Bardo, but I'll let you know when I do. My MWS is sort of broken at the moment. =/

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Originally Posted by ebbitten

I honostley have been in desperate need of green a couple times, has this ever been a problem?

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Nope, not since moving to three Tropical Islands. Unless you're facing heavy or recurring land destruction, in which case it's definitely going to be a problem. Are you having trouble with the lands in discard/LD situations, or in your opening hands? If it's the latter, you basically only want to keep hands with at least two lands or one land and 1-2 cantrips.

Eh i think it was just MWS being weird, i'm not really having any trouble any more.

Edit: Wild mongrel's been feeling a bit weak, has anyone else been thinking it would be better of being something else?

Ok, I throw in my list
@Bardo: tombstalker is not good with mongoose and atog, he is just a finisher that let you play it with mana open to counterspell. I play 3 tombstalker and wins with only 1 in

play

I think I will cut force of will, because
1) I realize that in legacy there is simply no "bombs" like in vintage
2) blue card count problems, expecially after board, I don't want dead card in hand, fow with no blue card is a dead card and you think "oh, would I cast this fact or fiction or

not?"
3) the second force of will is a 5UU counterspell, too expensive
4) force is only a response to a turn1 lackey, but we have tons of removals for that
5) The suite duress- spell snare - counterspell can handle everything

So my list
27 mana sources (4 mox diamond 4 wasteland 6 cycle-land, the rest all duals and fetchs)

8 wins: 3 tombstalker 4 tarmagoyf 1 genesis

25 spell:

4 pernicious deed (best mass removal)
4 counterspell
4 spell snare

3 life from the loam (cycle, dredge, wasteland rec, pro land destruct., mox diamond)

4 braisntorm
3 fact or fiction
3 cunning wish (take cards removed for stalker, take more cards)

SIDE (really customizable, it's just an example)
4 extirpate
1 hideous laugther
1 constant mist (tech with life from the loam -> goblin = bye)
1 fact or fiction
1 slaughter pact
1 krosan grip
2 blue elemental blast
4 sun droplet (burn = bye)

Deed doesnt seem so hot with mox diamond. Why not just run damnation. Usually faster, (save vs EtW tokens) and this deck doesnt seem worried about chalices. (genesis, TS) I think the additional colored mana is worth killing the board instantly and not killing your own moxen. (genesis recursion next upkeep)

I'm testing mox diamond because
1) I play 3 life from the loam
2) I play expensive spells like fact or fiction or wish or deed.

It's never been a problem nuking my one/two mox, it's better to have some chances to make a turn 2 wish or turn 3 fact...

I just want to quote a post made by Nihil that got merged into BUG Threshold because I think that it hits pretty damn close to the truth, and it starts to really show the difference between the two decks:

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Originally Posted by Nihil

A key part of TarmoTog (which, by the way, desperately needs a better name) is its ability to "switch gears" and Intuition into some sort of recurring engine, whether it's Genesis, Gigapede, or Life from the Loam. This gives it a great lategame, especially against aggro-control decks.

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Before I say anything else, I want to acknowledge and reiterate that the deck desperately needs a better name. Calling it TarmoTog was really cool at the time because it was the only deck that mixed the two, and it was pretty much the only Tarmo-deck hanging around (in name, that is). Now that the metagame is saturated with Tarmo-This and Tarmo-That, it's horribly uncool and probably turns people off. Also, now that every Tog deck runs Tarmogoyf, it's not really descriptive, either. And since claiming first doesn't work in Magic.... kudos and maybe a free crap card of some sort to whoever can suggest something better and more descriptive (preferably without "Tarmo" in the title).

Also, Nihil is right to point out that one of the key features I had in mind while I was developing the deck was versatility of role assignment; while it's possible to win without switching, usually it's the switch that wins you games. That, and the fact that everyone assumes you're playing funky Threshold until you cast Intuition.


Now, to actually address concerns:

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Originally Posted by ebbitten

Edit: Wild mongrel's been feeling a bit weak, has anyone else been thinking it would be better of being something else?

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Testing showed that you can indeed play without Mongrel, it just means that your role assignment is going to lean much more heavily toward control. That's not to my own personal taste, but it can work--certainly, there's no complaint about the potential for increased control elements. I don't think that there's another creature in the same mana class (1-2) that can quite compare, however--the closest you'll find, I think, is River Boa (and while I haven't actually tested it and I'm sure it's awesome), but I have some problems with that idea:

1.) Mongrel is first and foremost a discard outlet, second a beater.
2.) Mongrel is a deterrant. I actually stumbled on this accidentally: while you usually won't discard much of your hand to kill an enemy beater, you can, and this alone will keep away armies of 2-3 beaters for a few turns--even Tarmogoyf (usually one with less than five toughness). It makes it hard for your opponent, because while attacking seems like the best option, s/he has to weigh in the fact that you don't care too much about what goes to the grave, and you also get to choose what to kill. Attacking thus seems like a good choice, but perhaps not the best. Basically, what I'm saying is that it helps to increase your opponent's potential to make mistakes.
3.) Mongrel changes colour to avoid Shriekmaw and most black removal, which is nice. Hasn't been necessary yet, but just having that extra protection is nice.

To Boa's credit, he would survive a Deed, and the mana investment isn't so bad given what the Boa does (like block Tarmogoyf). Islandwalk is also awesome, although it's unfortunate that it also means that you can't force trades to save removal, but that's only a minor issue at best. The bigger problem is that the Boa will only ever swing for two, and he'll never help you to discard.

So yeah--I'm fond of the Mongrels and I think that they're the best creature to occupy the slot, but I'd definitely love to hear and try any suggestions that you might have. My penchant is for aggro, so I like the critters, but good non-creature options are important to test, and I'm not unwilling to try anything.



slyfer: I'll be open in that I don't like the list that you're proposing. Part of the reason for that is that it's too control-y for my taste, but the other part is that I'm not convinced that Wish and FoF are actually better options than Intuition. Cunnish Wish just doesn't seem to grab anything particularly important, and FoF... well, it's a great card, but the mana investment is hefty and I'm not sure that the gain is significant enough, given the lack of early options and so on. I think it's the right choice for the deck that you built, but I think that a deck built around an Intuition engine is just stronger overall.

Also, like I said earlier, I think that Living Wish gives far more options to help resolve problematic matchups--Cunning Wish mostly helps matchups that are already pretty good. I just don't see it being as good as Living Wish would be--especially since Living Wish can grab Tarmogoyfs that have been removed by Swords to Plowshares.

Also, I don't think that Genesis is pulling its weight in your list. The fact that there's no easy way to put it into the graveyard if you draw it is really turning me off--I think that Volrath's Stronghold is just stronger, unless you want a beater--in which case Gigapede is amazing.

I like that everyone's coming back to Tombstalker, but I'm not sure that it can really fit into the deck any more. Certainly, it fits if you make some pretty hefty modifications (such as Slyfer's list). I will say this, though: a build with Tombstalker and Living Wish sounds like it could be formidable. :wink:

I am not testing tarmo tog but the deck i am playing looks really like tarmotog.
If you want a creature that has the same role of wild mongrel i ld suggest vinelasher kudzu. I really think this card has a lot of potetntiel and isnt enough played.In my testing kudzu is usually bigger than tarmogoyf (when i play it turn two or three)He do can easily become a 5/5 or 7/7.
My list is different cause i am more aggroish and i am playing the dreadnought kill.

creatures

4 dreadnought
4 tarmogoyf
4 vinelasher kudzu
3 psychatog
3 sylvan protector

draw engine

4 intuition
1 life from the loam

utility

4 brainstorm
4 stifle
3 trickbind
4 force of will
3 cabal therapy

mana base

3 tropical island
3 island
1 cephalid coliseum
1 bayou
1 underground sea
4 polluted delta
4 fetch green
2 flooded strand


The cards i need more testing are sylvan protector cabal therapy.
What i am hesitating to play is trinket mage or counterbalance or spel snare+daze
or removal(smother shriekmaw) or dark confidant.
Thanks for the comments.
What i ll never do is playing wild mongrel instead of kudzu kudzu is nearly has good as tarmogoyf.Try it with at least 10 fetch and you will see that he is gold.

Is Sylvan Protector supposed to be Sylvan Safekeeper? If so, that's pretty fucking cool.

The Therapy, though, doesn't look terribly awesome - it would be if it could sac a stranded Dreadnough, but it can't since it is a sorcery. Duress or Thoughtseize would work better in that slot. Or Dark Confidant, which is always awesome, and twice as much when it's protected by the Safekeeper. Removal is also an option, but I guess you're counting on always having the biggest guys on the board, right?

Regardless, 1x Genesis is almost surely worth a slot somewhere: it allows you to Intuition for a satanic laugh in the face of control players.

Yes sylvan safekeeper i wanted to say^^
But actually the two cards i like the least are sylvan safekeeper
(i know it s game when you have the dreadnought in play but it doesn t do anything on his own testing to see if its worth) and cabal therapy i play it only because i play sylvan safekeeper i dont like dead cards .That s it; some options are as you said dark confidant .
Maybe the best option is 3 sensei+3 counterbalance it has been proved in all others aggro control decks.
And because of that i lost a lot of time against counterbalance deck's;
the best way of beatings it is playing it maindeck???
So trinket mage could be tested also.
Lots of possibilities are vailable....

Having finally arrived home from New Zealand, I was reunited with all my cards and decided to test this deck. I tried a few lists before settling on my own, which is the mess that follows:

Lands: 19
3 Tropical island
3 Underground sea
1 Bayou
4 Polluted delta
2 Windswept heath
1 Flooded strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid coliseum
1 Volrath's stronghold

Creatures: 15
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Shriekmaw
1 Eternal witness
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis
1 Psychatog
1 Wonder

Other spells: 26
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of will
2 Spell snare
2 Daze
4 Intuition
2 Pernicious deed
2 Engineered explosives
1 Life from the loam
1 Darkblast

I have a feeling some of the splits (daze and spell snare in particular) may be better as one or the other, but this deck has done well in testing. I was really close to cutting the last psychatog, but I liked being able to swing for 15 or so late-game to just to knock a player out. Plus, he provides an extra way of getting incarnations and such in the yard.

I was originally skeptical about witness and gigs (they both seemed extraneous), but they have both been stellar for me. I was also originally dying to get white in here for StP, but I found that the removal suite this deck can support is more than enough. Pretty much every creature that can't be killed via shriekmaw is weaker than goyf (who'd-a-thunk-it?).

I added the volrath's stronghold as a 19th land, because this deck can get very mana-hungry AND because it can be part of the intuition split of loam+coliseum+stronghold, which sets up most of your game. This could be wasteland, but seeing as mana-denial is not a theme in this deck it seemed sorta underwhelming.

Deed, despite the fact that mongoose/goyf+deed=not a combo, has been awesome as well. I started with four, then cut one (then two) for EE, but I'm thinking of going back up, especially now that the land-count has increased.

So, spell snare in place of daze? Daze is fantastic, but there were plenty of times when I needed to ramp my mana for intuition or deed and was unable because of daze (i.e. I needed to counter something, and didn't have the choice to just let it resolve). Has anyone else had this problem?

Finally, here's the sideboard I'm considering:

4 Duress (if you're boarding them in, you usually don't need to hit creatures; plus, I don't have thoughtseizes yet)
4 BEB (could be E plague if goblins is around)
4 Leyline otV/crypt/extirpate (thoughts?)
3 Krosan grip

[/necro]

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Originally Posted by Solpugid

Having finally arrived home from New Zealand, I was reunited with all my cards and decided to test this deck.

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Yay! Glad you like it, by the way.

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I was originally skeptical about witness and gigs (they both seemed extraneous), but they have both been stellar for me. I was also originally dying to get white in here for StP, but I found that the removal suite this deck can support is more than enough. Pretty much every creature that can't be killed via shriekmaw is weaker than goyf (who'd-a-thunk-it?).

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Knew you'd come around. Gigapede is actually probably the best creature in the deck, in my opinion--pretty much every game that I win is won by him. :tongue:

I myself have been considering more Shriekmaws (at least one, anyway), just because they're so great. I still like the Mongrels, though, so that takes up a few slots that I could otherwise devote to other cool things.

What interests me most about the list you're testing is Mongrel's absence. We established a while ago that the deck could function perfectly well with or without them. That was some time ago, however, and now that we've got Shriekmaw and stuff, I'm curious as to how you're finding that games play out. On paper, it looks like the deck would need a little more mana, but I'd like to know how true that's proving for you. Five mana or more is obviously going to be ideal for both our builds, but I don't usually feel too uncomfortable with just three or four. Would you say it's about the same, or that the increased number of control elements want a tad more?

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I added the volrath's stronghold as a 19th land, because this deck can get very mana-hungry AND because it can be part of the intuition split of loam+coliseum+stronghold, which sets up most of your game. This could be wasteland, but seeing as mana-denial is not a theme in this deck it seemed sorta underwhelming.

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I've been considering it as well, and I'm glad to see that you've had some positive results with it. Wasteland is a nice trick, but too often that's all it is, since it's just a singleton. It certainly has its uses (notably versus Lands, Landstill, and Karakas), but it's--as you rightly said--hardly a pillar of awesomeness.

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Deed, despite the fact that mongoose/goyf+deed=not a combo, has been awesome as well. I started with four, then cut one (then two) for EE, but I'm thinking of going back up, especially now that the land-count has increased.

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Again, I agree; my own experience showed Deed to be much more useful than EE. With only three colours, EE only really destroys things that the deck can already handle. Deed is useful as a reset button, but also because you can smack just about anything out of the way if the game drags on. Things that cost four mana tend to be far more threatening for the deck (like Leyline, for example :wink:).

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So, spell snare in place of daze? Daze is fantastic, but there were plenty of times when I needed to ramp my mana for intuition or deed and was unable because of daze (i.e. I needed to counter something, and didn't have the choice to just let it resolve). Has anyone else had this problem?

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I tried and dismissed Daze early on for the same reasons: you need that mana early on. Your early game is crucial for setting up Intuition--->win, and losing that land drop is awful. You can survive some early attacks on your mana base, but Dazing lands away on top of that really sucks. Personally, I don't think that, in this case, Daze's benefits outweigh its shortcoming. The only decks I'd really want Daze against would be storm combo decks, but that's not really enough to warrant including it. Plus, it's absolutely useless later on. I liked Mana Leak in its place, but Spell Snare is really probably a better option at the moment since it counters anything you'd want Daze to.


[qupte]
4 Duress (if you're boarding them in, you usually don't need to hit creatures; plus, I don't have thoughtseizes yet)
4 BEB (could be E plague if goblins is around)
4 Leyline otV/crypt/extirpate (thoughts?)
3 Krosan grip

[/QUOTE]

Duress should be fine; I don't think Thoughtseize is really necessary at all: the matchups you need to sideboard for are mostly combo matches (perhaps a little less so for your version, which has more counterspells)

How's BEB playing out for you? It's not something I've ever considered, but I can definitely see it being useful. It might be worth running Stifle instead, though.

Personally, I've really had a good experience with Extirpate, but Leyline or Crypt are obviously better if you're expecting a heavy graveyard presence--Ichorid especially. If you're planning on seeing a lot of Ichorid and burn, one amusing trick might be to just run Energy Field (since a lot of Ichorid decks MD LotV now), but that's a tad janky. :tongue:


And so I come to my one quibble with your sideboard: Krosan Grip. I really don't think it's necessary if you consider that Deed (and, in the above list, EE) does (do) the same thing, and often more. I suspect those slots would be better used by Stifle or Pithing Needle.


Thanks for posting (and necroing); I'm glad to see you're still interested. Your list has also given me a few things to think about for my own, which is great (except for the fact that it's exam season :wink:).

Thought I'd also post how the deck's been evolving in my hard disk in the last weeks. For what it's worth, I have also moved the file from my 'Aggro-Control' folder to the 'Midrange' one... because after dropping the Mongrels, that's how it's been playing like.

My main changes were:

- Dropped Mongrels: this has already been discussed.
- Cut Wonder: with the addition of Shriekmaw, achieving board superiority is easier than ever. This card just clogged the hand.
- Cut Daze: same thing you've seen, this deck loves its land drops.
- Cut Darkblast: the card just doesn't do enough in the meta.

This was replaced with:

- 3x Shriekmaw: I'm not thrilled with it costing two and not hitting black creatures, but it's too effective not to adopt. Plus, Deed and EE can take care of the odd Dark Confidant.
- An Academy Ruins toolbox: 1 Ruins, 1 EE, 1 Crypt, plus additional copies in the SB (there used to be a Needle too, but it was cut for not doing enough). Frankly, this should have been in from day 1. Ruins+EE lock is so powerful against so many decks. Drop a Tarmogoyf to stall the ground, then Intution for Loam, Ruins, EE and you've almost locked the game out.

The latest version of the deck:

// Lands
1 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [UNH] Forest
3 [PR] Underground Sea
2 [PR] Tropical Island
3 [PR] Bayou
2 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [UNH] Island
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [UNH] Swamp

// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [PR] Eternal Witness
2 [OD] Psychatog
4 [OD] Nimble Mongoose
1 [JU] Genesis
1 [ON] Gigapede
3 [LRW] Shriekmaw

// Spells
4 [PR] Brainstorm
4 [TE] Intuition
4 [PR] Force of Will
3 [AP] Pernicious Deed
1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
4 [LRW] Ponder
2 [DIS] Spell Snare

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [PLC] Extirpate -> These were extra Crypts, until I realized that Crypts will never eat a Life from the Loam.
SB: 2 [RAV] Life from the Loam -> Questionable use of SB slots, but I think the easiest way for this deck to lose is to get its lands destroyed
SB: 4 [9E] Bottle Gnomes -> Can be recycled with both Genesis and Academy Ruins. I like to have them against Burn and Sligh, but in a more Goblins meta these slots should go to Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [PR] Duress

You already play a Trinket Mage toolbox, so how about...Trinket Mage. 2 of them are not bad. Plus you can add one Top which is a great card with Dredge and a SB Needle.

If you really need Lifegain play Darkheart Sliver over Gnomes. Cheaper, more power and randomly strong against Counter Sliver.

The Trinket Mage is an option I'd considered and dismissed. Realistically, I'd have to cut either Togs or Mongeese for it; I don't like cutting the first because of their finishing ability, and the second because of curve issue. Besides, after dropping Needle I am left with just two targets in the deck - although I suppose I could add a Top.

Darkheart Slivers were actually what I ran before the Bottle Gnomes. I switched to Gnomes admittedly on a whim, after getting cut off from green mana in one game, and being forced to blow up EE@2 in another, losing to a topdecked Keldon Marauders that I couldn't block.

Yeah, EE is awesome, but I think I'd rather have recurring witness/goyf/shriekmaw than recurring artifacts. That's why I went with the stronghold over academy ruins. But let me know how the artifact toolbox pans out, since it's something I haven't tested.

I tested mongrel in this deck for two game and yanked his ass. It quickly became apparent that he didn't play along with how I wanted to pilot this deck, and I really feel his slot is better used for other cards.

I think I'm going with you guys and pulling the dazes, but I'm pretty sad about it. This deck was starting to feel like black threshold early game, but with a recursion engine for late-game, and cutting daze sorta ruins that feel.

Darkblast, on the other hand, isn't going anywhere. I didn't appreciate how influential -1/-1 can be until I tested, but winning the goyf-goyf brawls and taking out random confidants, lackeys, en-kor creatures, etc. is just so friggin good.

I also don't agree with dropping wonder. Besides allowing goyfs to block angels, it allows gigapede to becaome a serious threat, and not one that falls flat to a mother of runes or late-game lackey.

19 lands has been fine in my testing though, especially since I often go for the loam package with intuition first. That means the next turn WILL have a land drop, and the first three are found quite easily with the cantrips.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nihil

Darkheart Slivers were actually what I ran before the Bottle Gnomes. I switched to Gnomes admittedly on a whim, after getting cut off from green mana in one game, and being forced to blow up EE@2 in another, losing to a topdecked Keldon Marauders that I couldn't block.

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Yes. And the next time you'll randomly lose against Krosan Grip on Gnomes. Darkheart seems better, except for Mogg Fanatic I know no card where the 1 toughness could be relevant. And even with Mogg, they usually ping you. Sliver is recurrable for 5, Gnomes for 6, that's a BIG difference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Solpugid

Darkblast, on the other hand, isn't going anywhere. I didn't appreciate how influential -1/-1 can be until I tested, but winning the goyf-goyf brawls and taking out random confidants, lackeys, en-kor creatures, etc. is just so friggin good.

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QFT. My petdeck GBw Survival play similar like this deck and Darkblast is one of the few cards that are always in the sideboard. Grips, Explosives, Plagues all go in and out but Darkblast is fixed.
It was already good when the prime targets were Lackey and Confidant, plus sometimes Mother, Soltari Priest and Lavamancer. But now that it can win Goyfwars (if that deck has a second target) and that it is awesome against Ceph. Fast it became one of my favorite cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Solpugid

Yeah, EE is awesome, but I think I'd rather have recurring witness/goyf/shriekmaw than recurring artifacts. That's why I went with the stronghold over academy ruins. But let me know how the artifact toolbox pans out, since it's something I haven't tested.

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Run both, the number of games that come down to recurring threats or Engineered Explosives in the aggro-control mirror is ridiculous. I tend to run the Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, Cephalid Coliseum and Cabal Pit package over their spell counter parts and much prefer the additional mana to the unnecessary threats.

You only need one Shriekmaw, if you use a set, you'll be kicking yourself over not being able to remove black creatures and artifacts. You should also be looking into even more unfair interactions, like the Spore Frog and Volrath's Stronghold lock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Run both, the number of games that come down to recurring threats or Engineered Explosives in the aggro-control mirror is ridiculous.

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Truer words haven't been spoken often.

Quote:

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I tend to run the Volrath's Stronghold, Academy Ruins, Cephalid Coliseum and Cabal Pit package over their spell counter parts and much prefer the additional mana to the unnecessary threats.

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Cabal Pit puzzles me. It seems it has a heavy drawback for a very minor removal ability. I forgive Cephalid Coliseum for his annoyance since he is an Ancestral Recall every turn, but Cabal Pit's effect doesn't seem in the same league at all.

Quote:

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You only need one Shriekmaw, if you use a set, you'll be kicking yourself over not being able to remove black creatures and artifacts.

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I don't know about the meta you play in, but I don't see black and artifact creatures at every street corner. And thanks to Deeds and EEs, I'm not short in ways of dealing with them.

Quote:

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You should also be looking into even more unfair interactions, like the Spore Frog and Volrath's Stronghold lock.

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This doesn't excite me at all. First of all, Frog/Stronghold is a soft lock for your opponent... but a hard lock for you, unless you've also estabilished a Coliseum/Loam combo at the same time. You need Genesis/Frog to do something.

Secondly, Frog is a card that does very little on its own - it hardly made the cut in Survival, where tutoring for it was much easier, but I'd be wary of putting it in this deck. Besides, if I were to cut a slot for a card that does next to nothing when hardcast, Wonder is first on that list.

Thirdly, a Fog-lock is sort of redundant when you can already estabilish Boardsweep-lock.

Cabal Pit is a Darkblast that produces mana, as long as it ends a Goyf on Goyf stalemate and prevents another Goyf on Goyf stalemate from occurring, it's doing it's job regardless of whether or not you recur it turn after turn.

Dark Confidant is enough of a reason for me not to rely on Shriekmaw as my only source of spot removal, sometimes you're already committed to the board, so Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives are double edged, and sometimes mass removal isn't fast enough.

You want Shriekmaw, but you don't want a set of them. Diversifying your removal makes you more flexible, and in some cases makes you more resilient. You can play more than one Shriekmaw, but you still want your opponent to fear instant speed removal. It's the same reason you play Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed, to cover all of your opponent's outs in case he has an answer to one but not both.

Spore Frog lock was just an example, there are a lot of applications between Life from the Loam, Volrath's Stronghold and Sacrifice/Evoke creatures worth exploring.

Edit: Gnomes > Sliver, you can recur Gnomes with both Volrath's Stronghold and/or Academy Ruins.

All right! Now that my take-home exams are all done, I can finally get my hand dirty with the deck once more.

First, I've made a few modifications. For reference, this is what the deck looks like for me right now:

Lands: 18
3 Tropical island
2 Underground sea
2 Bayou
3 Polluted delta
3 Windswept heath
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Volrath's stronghold
1 Cephalid Coliseum

Creatures: 20
4 Nimble mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shriekmaw
3 Wild Mongrel
2 Psychatog
1 Eternal witness
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis
1 Wonder

Other spells: 22
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of will
4 Intuition
3 Pernicious deed
2 Life from the loam
1 Darkblast

SB:

4 Extirpate
4 Stifle
4 Duress
3 Crime/Punishment

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The major changes have been the turn to Shriekmaw for removal and the inclusion of Volrath's Stronghold over Wasteland. I did test out Darkheart Sliver, but more on that in a moment. Some results:

Volrath's Stronghold: Overall, probably more useful than Wasteland. I think it's worth keeping: it's a nice backup to Genesis, although not being able to draw a card while recurring is a little unfortunate, but being able to recur instantaneously (and draw with cantrips! Yay!). Still, backup is important.

Shriekmaw: Going up to three has panned out nicely, and I don't really miss Smother much. Losing instantaneity is a little less cool, but not much of a problem. Bringing Darkblast back is nice (especially for dominating combat), and it's nice not having to worry about weenies again.

Life from the Loam: Added one to see how it would go. I certainly like the increased consistency, but one worked fine as well.

Darkblast: Once more, Darkblast has become a good complement.

Darkheart Sliver: Not enough bang for the buck, in my opinion. Swinging for two was mediocre at best, and the life gain was only really relevant against burn. I think it falls under the "cool tricks" category. However, Spore Frog may be interesting as a possible solution to Ichorid ('course, there are other options). I'm not sure that another utility creature would do much at the moment, however.

Academy Ruins & Engineered Explosives: One thing I didn't like when I tested this (I tested them instead of Mongrel) was the fact that Ruins doesn't produce coloured mana, which I occasionally found problematic. I also had some trouble discarding cards when I wanted to. Has anyone else had these problems, or was it just me? In principle, I see no reason why this plan would be bad. From a personal standpoint, I prefer having the Mongrels and using Witness to recur Deeds, but I'm so biased that it isn't funny. :tongue:


Thanks for all the thoughts; hope to see more. I also hope that the next sets give us some sweet new toys to play with. :smile:

I just had an amusing thought: while I wasn't all that impressed with Darkheart Sliver, Briarhorn might well prove impressive. I'll be testing it and going back down to two Mongrels.

Is there a reason to run Pernicious Deed and Ponder over Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top? I find If I don't have board dominance, I will have board dominance thanks to the draw engine and recurring threats. Intuition is so good at assembling the Balance/Top lock that it seems like a waste not to use Balance/Top in the MD or at least in the SB.

Eh, in my testing running board sweepers is pretty awesome. Besides, deed trumps CB on the opposing side of the board.

@Goaswerfraiejen

Your lists are starting to look a lot like the ones I was testing before, but you're still holding on to those mongrels. Have you tested without them, and just disliked being less aggressive?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Is there a reason to run Pernicious Deed and Ponder over Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top? I find If I don't have board dominance, I will have board dominance thanks to the draw engine and recurring threats. Intuition is so good at assembling the Balance/Top lock that it seems like a waste not to use Balance/Top in the MD or at least in the SB.

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It was discussed at some point, but I can't remember when/where. Basically, they're as follows:

1.) Counterbalance costs UU, which puts some strain on the manabase. Obviously, that's not the whole reason, since Deed and Tog put a strain on it as well (speaking of which, I'm considering going back to one Tog for three Mongrels, but whatever). It can be done, but reason two is the real clincher for me:

2.) Deed can come down at any point in the game, and it will act as a reset button allowing the deck to shift gears (which is the point, really). Counterbalance has to come down ASAP, and it won't affect the game state that comes before it. In my opinion (and bear in mind that I'm a nobody) the deck doesn't need a Counterbalance lock as much as it needs a reset button.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Solpugid

@Goaswerfraiejen

Your lists are starting to look a lot like the ones I was testing before, but you're still holding on to those mongrels. Have you tested without them, and just disliked being less aggressive?

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Yeah, I tried the deck out without them a few times, including just recently when I tried Academy and EE instead. Part of the problem is that it doesn't suit my playstyle, and I feel uncomfortable without them. They're huge deterrants, dodge most black removal, and are easier to cast/more effective overall than Tog tends to be. Plus, without them, I don't feel comfortable with the number of discard outlets.

To be fair, however, I suspect that most of that is just me and in my head; I see no real reason why the deck wouldn't work well without them. I just don't like it, myself. :tongue:

Don't get me wrong, I loved mongrels when I tried them. I just think that running other spells is more important. Mainly, I have a growing concern with the number of blue spells in the deck. 4 BS, 4 ponder, 4 intuition, and 4 FoW are givens, but I really don't like running less than, say, 18 or 19 spells to pitch. Mongrel seems to cut into those blue slots quite a bit. As terrible as it sounds, being cared disadvantage and all, I think I'll test careful study.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Solpugid

Don't get me wrong, I loved mongrels when I tried them. I just think that running other spells is more important. Mainly, I have a growing concern with the number of blue spells in the deck. 4 BS, 4 ponder, 4 intuition, and 4 FoW are givens, but I really don't like running less than, say, 18 or 19 spells to pitch. Mongrel seems to cut into those blue slots quite a bit. As terrible as it sounds, being cared disadvantage and all, I think I'll test careful study.

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There are 18 at present with Psychatog. But sure, let us know how your testing goes.

Yeah, but every game I pitch a tog or wonder I regret it. I'll do some testing with careful study right now and get right back to edit this post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Solpugid

Yeah, but every game I pitch a tog or wonder I regret it. I'll do some testing with careful study right now and get right back to edit this post.

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Hmm, forgot about Wonder. That makes it 19. You definitely seldom want to pitch Wonder, but I rarely really regret pitching Tog.

Ok, I played quite a few games against my angel stompy deck (it's just what was on hand) and here's what I concluded about my list:

1. Shriekmaw pisses me off. On the one hand it's amazingly good when you get to five mana, or when you can start recurring it with genesis/stronghold, but on the other hand this deck's late game is already good. I think I'll go back to smother or edict as my removal, because I hate not being able to kill at instant speed, and I HATE not being able to kill razor golem. Yes, I realize golem hardly exists in this meta, but the same would go for confidant.

2. Careful study pisses me off. I was uber excited when I landed a 3/3 flying mongoose (with darkblast backup) off of double careful study in game 2. Next turn I draw a goyf, and I get even happier...and then it gets swords and I'm attacked by a golem, a serra avenger, and some other stuff I don't want to block. Why? Because my hand is shriekmaw, gigapede, deed, intuition. On my turn I draw another land with ponder, putting me to 4, and cast the deed. I figure, if I get land #5 I'll use shriekmaw to off the avenger and then double block the golem. But then I don't get a land...and then again next turn, and I realize I dumped 2 of them with careful study. Seriously, this deck does not like the card disadvantage.

3. I feel like this deck needs more early game protection, and I want that protection to do three things: pitch to FoW, counter combo players' attempts to go off, and block (and preferrably kill) some early creatures. So far all I can think of is spellstutter sprite or spiketail hatchling, and these would most likely take the place of the God-awful careful studies I disgraced my deck with.

4. Goyf is just busted. That's all, just busted.

Edit: can we call this deck Assassin BUG? Ok, nevermind.

Dredgers in TarmoTog? Stinkweed Imp is a nice recurring blocker, OK, but Troll?

Anyway, from Bill Stark's helpful database:

Psychatog
Michael Redford
2007 Worlds New York, NY
Legacy

Main Deck:
1 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Psychatog
1 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Wonder

4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Deep Analysis
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Ponder
4 Spell Snare

3 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground River

Sideboard:
3 Echoing Truth
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Hail Storm
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Stifle

I've seen Stinkweed used in Extended, I think it's to put a road block in front of Tarmogoyfs more than to grow Tarmogoyfs or Psychatog, it's in the Threads of Disloyalty slot a lot.