I agree 2 colors is a bit over the top in this deck.Quote:
Teeg is a powerhouse, and so is Mage, but going for both might be going too far
I do think that green is the thing this deck needs however.
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I agree 2 colors is a bit over the top in this deck.Quote:
Teeg is a powerhouse, and so is Mage, but going for both might be going too far
I do think that green is the thing this deck needs however.
I'm still not seeing Teeg. Granted, combo probably isn't the measly 15% of the format that it was a few months, but it doesn't look like it has any real impact on any combo matchup unless you follow it up with Explosives for Empty the Warrens or a discard spell -- or just...SOMETHING. It does nothing to Ichorid unless you run Explosives or Prison and all Breakfast has to do is run a different bounce spell and actually use their Forces and Therapies.
And let's be real - you can't even consistently make Tarmogoyf much bigger than SotPC unless your opponent does the work for you. On top of that, I don't think it'll be bigger than Grunt that much and Grunt has a very nice bonus. Where is all of the Dark Confidant, Brainstorm, Meddling Mage, Stifle, Duress, and Cabal Therapy hype?
As things stand, I'm going to need much more proof that green is the best color to splash. I've been winning far too many games against other decks with black and blue cards and Explosives.
It's not because you win the mirror that your deck is better.
I may be misunderstanding you (and if I am, I'll change my post), but how does running green make the mirror matchup better? Pumping Tarmogoyf sure isn't easy and Teeg is just a 2/2 legend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maveric78f
Resolving Dark Confidant or getting two shots out of a Therapy is far better than anything green can do in the mirror. I would probably argue that blue is better in the mirror too if you're using Brainstorm.
Does green fix the card quality problem D&T has? Nope. Teeg can be card advantage though, and I do like it because of that. But more often that not, Teeg isn't Bob.
Alright i think gaddock teeg is great but i dont think him and goyf warrant the green splash over the blue or black. Storm combo is on a huge decline so teeg wont be hitting tendrills, etw, and belcher often enough. Also this deck wont be able to utilize tarmogoyf effectively or as effectivley as the oter decks in the format can. The green splash doesnt realy improve any of the matchups or it improves the wrong matchups. Aggro has always been easy for this deck to deal with and the goyf only makes this deck beat on a dead horse. The black splash gives this deck the card advantage problem it has and better tools against combo, plus it gives it a bunch of other great sideboard options. Also we have neo duress to look forward to.
Also in the non green lists i have been noticing a lack of maindeck grunt. This card hits on all the goyf decks hard and makes the ichorid matchup easier
Do you mean that our tarmogoyfs will be smaller than the opponents' tarmogoyfs ?Quote:
Also this deck wont be able to utilize tarmogoyf effectively or as effectivley as the oter decks in the format can.
I think he meant you won't be able to make it grow by yourself when you're playing with it.
Damn, that sounded bad.
Geek, we have been hearing about your build with black for some time How about a list?
Umm i havent worked on this deck for a while. My current list is the one is posted on the first page.
Im thinking of taking out the mana tithes and putting in some of the new neo duresses in its place. I dont run stonecloaker in my black list because there is much better things i can be doing with my mana when im drawing 2 cards a turn off of confidant.Quote:
Originally Posted by technogeek5000
Theres a new artifact coming out, :2: noncreature spells costs 1 more; seems like it could be a very very good anti combo bomb.
Mine grows just fine when i play with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
(yes thats supposed to sound bad)
all that matters is it's bigger than anything else at 2 mana, since it's usually a 3/4 or a 4/5
glowrider bettter?Quote:
Originally Posted by ebbitten
Depends. The fact that Glowrider's a clock is a major boon against combo. Then again, the fact that it's a full turn slower is one of the things making it a questionable inclusion in the first place; turn 3 disruption for combo is often going to be a turn too late.Quote:
Originally Posted by burkey_boy
Eck
This card actually presents a bit of a problem. A good proble, don't get me wrong, but a problem. With the removal of Glowrider, the deck has gained a lot of noncreature spells. Glowrider was too slow by a turn quite often. It was maddening at times, so this sucker fits the bill. It is certainly better than Sphere of Resistence. We just have to watch the problems it can create. That said, I played Sphere right up until recently, when I exchanged it for Orim's Chant. Now, I suppose it deserves some reconsideration.
I have been in Athens, GA for three weeks (Go Bulldogs!!). Got home Monday night. I only had two decks with me, and they were just for emergency - you know the kind. One was classic U/W Landstill and one was D+T. To my shock and delight, there was a Legacy tournament with 28 entries at a nearby card store my first weekend there and another one with 17 this past Sunday. I can't recall the name of the store. I chose D+T of course.
I have never had such a run in all my life. I had one game loss in 13 rounds of play and picked up 4 duals for each of my two 1st place finishes. I had no idea that there was anything going on for Legacy in these places. Why don't we ever hear about it?
This is what I used.
White
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Mana Tithe
2 True Believer
4 Serra Avenger
3 Silver Knight
2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
3 Cataclysm
Artifact
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
Land
4 Karakas
4 Rishadan Port
4 Flagstones of Trokair
10 Plains
board
1 Silver Knight
2 True Believer
4 Orim's Chant
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Tivadar of Thorn
1 Disenchant
1 Seal of Cleansing
Some of the decks I saw were:
Goblins (lots)
Burn
MUC
Threshold
Belcher
Zoo
ATS
various Tarmogoyf decks
random crap
I faced Threshold in the finals both times. UGr Thresh was my one game loss. He had me down with Counterbalance.
Wow man. Congratulations. That is awesome! I think that DL is the latest, right? Which was your toughest matchup besides that loss to Threshold?Quote:
Originally Posted by chmoddity
Faluzure stole the words right out of my mouth. One game loss in 13 rounds...now that's what I like to hear. :)
Are the True Believers holding their weight for you? I really like them but they just turn out to be vanilla bears too many times. It might be because my luck just seems to have other ideas though.
I'm about to play in a small casual tournament with a group of MtG players. Word on the street is that lots of them play MUC or W/B Control.
The latest decklist shows that we took out Chalice for Orim's Chant. What is the strategy vs. MUC? chmoddity, since you had the most recent experience in a Legacy tournament, how did the matchup with MUC go for you?
Resolve Vial.Quote:
What is the strategy vs. MUC?
And, resolve Cataclysm.
Funny you should say that. I faced MUC and won game one due to drawing two Stonecloakers and making his Vedalken Shackles fail just long enough to pound him. He got flustered and kept a one land hand game two. I had a very aggressive hand and he scooped by turn 6 or something. I played no Vials or Cataclysms in either game, but both would clearly have been bombs.
That matchup scared the hell out of me. I do not recommend this deck against MUC. None of the disruption is geared towards it, so all you get is a deck of small creatures. Unless you get Mangara lock. Or vial. Or Cataclysm.
Shit... That's what worries me. Resolving a Vial means I have to be on the draw with a good hand or I have to somehow bait the MUC player. Resolving a Cataclysm is that much harder. My meta has a lot of MUC & W/U Control, so I'm torn on whether to use this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by chmoddity
I also have Angel Stompy, Scepter-Chant, Armageddon-Stax, & Enchantress' decks as my other options.
Na, it isn't that bad. If you resolve a Vial, you win, but your other cards are basically all credible threats too and they definitely don't want Mangaras, Avengers or even 2/2s resolving if they can help it. The fact that you can punish them for tapping out for their Vedalken Shackles really helps (Cataclysm if possible). MUC isn't optimal against decks that try to swarm. If they get Shackles down, don't panic, you can still win. If they can't steal Mangara, they'll either have to keep what they stole or give it back. Just don't attack into their blockers unnecessarily. It's pretty much the same as any aggro vs. MUC which honestly tends to be somewhat difficult for MUC, especially when you play cards that can remove Shackles, that can stifle Shackles (Karakas, uncounterable too), a bomb they have to counter (Cataclysm) and a huge number of creatures. They've always had trouble with Goblins for the same reason and they can't bring Hydroblasts in vs. you. Your best cards in the MU in addition to Vial and Cataclysm are really your lands; Karakas is awesome vs. Shackles and Rishadan Port is great vs. them in general.
So... has anyone besides me tested Auriok Champion in place of Silver Knight? My findings, I wouldn't consder going back to Silver Knight.
Basically there are precious few match-ups where Silver Knight is actually better, and in those match-ups it is minimally better at best.
A quick list comparing my findings about which creature is better in what match-up.
Silver Knight
- Goblins
- The Mirror
Auriok Champion
- Anything w/ Empty the Warrens
- Ichorid
- Suiblack/Deadguy/RedDeath
- CounterSlivers
- Survival
- Burn
Roughly Equivalent
- Threshold
- Landstill
- 43 Lands
- Cephalid Breakfast
I suppose it's not any sort of dynamic breakthrough to the deck. But I've been touting it for a bit now and I think others should atleast give it a try, especially now that it appears Goblins is on the wane.
Auriok seems ok. I dont know if its better against suiblack. I myself am a sui black player and i would just shrug and over whelm you if i had to face that down. Also, since i play the white splash, all my removal hits it and the negator still tramples over it.
The version I am currently working with includes trinisphere. I also run wastelands and ports. Here is my list, I would like some feedback:
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stonecloaker
4 Mangara of Corondor
4 Glowrider
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Mana Tithe
3 Trinisphere
4 STP
4 AEther Vial
3 Jitte
4 Wasteland
4 R. Port
4 Karakas
4 Flagstones of Trokair
8 Plains
61 Total Cards
SB:
4 Hokori, Dust Drinker (meta is about 1/3 landstill...)
4 Jotun Grunt
3 Disenchant
4 Tividar's Crusade (could run fewer, not many goblins anymore...)
Why did you choose Trinisphere over Thorn of Amethyst? While you probably won't be hurt by the extra manacost incurred by Trinisphere half as much as your opponent will with the mana cheating of Aether Vial and Wasteland/Port disruption, I do think that Thorn of Amethyst would be better because I see it coming out quicker, and hurting yourself even less. If you've got Mana Tithe or Aether Vial in hand, that will almost definitely be played before you drop Thorn of Amethyst. Jitte and StP may be a bit hampered by it, but no more than Trinisphere would hamper them.
Other suggestions... cut to 60 cards :). Oh, and if you haven't tested Cataclysm, try it out. I'm not saying it's a must, but it seems the more successful builds run it (this is a purely subjective observation). Flagstones of Trokair were included primarily to better abuse Cataclysm, otherwise there legendary status hardly makes them worthwhile. Even with Cataclysm, I only run three. And Tivadar of Thorn is equally as cool as Tivadar's Crusade in your sideboard - worth a glance.
Otherwise I think you're list is pretty cool. I speculate that a build incorportating Thorn of Amethyst and Glowrider could possibly be even better than those using Cataclysm in a combo or control heavy meta. Good luck.
Galroth, I have been thinking along these lines as well. Here's a summary of my thought on the topic of Silver Knight - and beyond.
1. Goblins has been perceived by enough people to be no longer good enough that it is destined to be down for a good long time whether or not that is true(ala Landstill two years ago).
2. Threshold (and other decks for that matter) can now alter their gameplan in favor of card advantage over tempo ever so slightly. That means more of Accumulated Knowledge and Predict over cards like Serum Visions.
3. That's a problem for this deck. We need to adapt. The first card I would cut without batting an eye is certainly the Knight.
4. That got me going in a direction. Here's what I came up with.
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Stonecloaker
3 Cataclysm
3 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Aether Vial
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Karakas
2 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
sb:
3 Daze
3 Tivadar of Thorn
2 Seal of Cleansing
4 Meddling Mage
2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Stifle
So you lose Rishidan Port and a lot of game against Goblins. And you lose a lot of frankly, random creatures. I really like the upside a lot. The land supply is slightly on the tender side, but only a bit.
Ultimately, I think this build loses very little. Even Wasteland is not a guarantee against you with Stifle around.
What dya all think?
The old build, although good, made you rely on topdecking if you encountered some major problem. I really like the inclusion of Blue. The new "Brainstorm" (Ponder) really helps you dig deeper into your library to try and find an answer to a problem. That gives you 8 ways to filter your draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
One thing I'm worried about though is the weaker Goblin game. Despite the decline of Goblins as a DTB, I don't think we're quite done with them yet. Every major tournament had at least 1 Goblin deck make it to the top 8. It seems a lot of the Gob players are really excited about the new cards in Lorwyn. With more options with the black splash, we might see some a resurrected goblins because of Lorwyn.
Is the removal of Samurai of the Pale Curtain for Jotun Grunt worth it? Apparently Cephalid Breakfast is the new DTB with UGx (specifically UGr) Threshold right behind it. Cephalid Breakfast also has a somewhat rough time against UGx Threshold due to the amount of counters it has. Wouldn't maindecking SotPC be better than sideboarding it?
SotPC is the card to use vs Cephalid Breakfast since they use the GY quite heavily. Jotun is too slow vs that deck. However, UGr threshold has a lot of burn, meaning it can take out your SotPC to start having it's GY filled again. In this matchup, Jotun Grunt is the card to use since UGr Threshold has to use 2-for-1 trades to get rid of him.
I don't know though, I guess it all depends on your metagame. I do like the blue splash though.
Samurai of the Pale Curtain only works on permanents going to te graveyard, it is not useful against Cephalid Breakfast since they mill their library. It is however good against Ichorid and Wasteland recursion (shouldn't be a problem) and very nice against ******** to keep them off lands in the graveyard and as a treshed mongoose blocker. But, I also have replaced him with the Grunt, since my meta is not Ichorid heavy, and the Grunt simply is better against ********.
Gah... gg reading comprehension. Sorry about that. I guess that answers my question. Samurai in SB & Grunt in MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by smoky squirrel
I like the suggestion of Thorn of Amethyst. It would definitely hurt my opponent more than it would hinder me. I have experimented with Sphere of Resistance and Tangle Wire, also, but Trinisphere seemed to hurt other decks the most. I will grab a few Thorn's and try them out. Thanks for the input!Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
Given this mana base, have you considered cutting a Island, and putting in a Minamo, School at Waters Edge?Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
It is sort of a second Karakas in many ways, and has to potental to be stone cold nuts with Mangara.
Seems like the (slightly) increased vulnrability to wasteland might be worth the savage midgame beatings it would enable.
BTW, first post in this thread. I fully support all the work people have been doing in developing this deck. It is very cool. Props.
I agree, Minamo seems like it would be broken with Mangara. You could pull off some sick tricks for little mana. For those of you that don't know MinamoQuote:
Originally Posted by TheCramp
http://resources.wizards.com/Magic/C.../Card79179.jpg
Like Isamaru w/ Jitte is nothing to scoff at for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacearuse
Hey, we could use it to untap the Jitte!!!! Excellent.
Seriously, though. That is a pretty good idea. I used this card back when the deck was only casual and it was actually quite good.
I haven't heard much from Phaerimm Archlord. Is he still playing Magic?
A question in general, but particularly directed at chmoddity.
The weakest spots in my build are the two drop creatures. I have 12 slots dedicated to them and I wouldn't mind using less if somebody can present a fantastic 1 drop or 3 drop beyond isamaru, mangara, and glowrider. Wizards just makes alot of great 2 drops... like I said though, they're still my weakest slots.
I feel 4x Serra Avenger and 2x Jotun Grunt are a must (Jotun for any meta bound to see a good turnout of thresh). But that leaves me with 6x spots left. I really like how Samurai of the Pale Curtain has been performing, so 3x went to him. I chose Auriok Champion over Silver Knight, but there are a whole slew of fantastic 2-drops out there that I want to know if I'm missing something. I was considering True Believer for awhile. He was pretty much main-decked or sideboarded. I saw your tremendous winning streak included 2x True Believer main-deck. Do I have recommendations for True Believer or any other creature?
Believer, it makes it so you don't scoop to combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Galroth
Combo will just EtW for 12 in the face of a True Believer. Or Belcher the Believer first. I have never really liked Believer in the MD.
I remember those decks. You had a W/G and a W/U. I really liked the W/U because you had multiple tricks and Cloud of Faeries was in that deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Hmm.... I'm really liking this dual color blue list. I need to decide if I'm going to chance it and play it at a small local legacy tournament. I banked on playing the mono-white. The problem is that I have no clue what my local metagame is.
I first thought of maindecking Auriok Champion for Empty the Warrens. Turns out she's pretty damn good and usually buys you enough time to deal with all of the tokens.
Where does True Believer really shine? In the Belcher matchup I don't know if Believer or Champion is better. Tendrils combo believer is better. Deadguy and other black disruption decks True Believer is probably better, but Auriok Champion would still be my second choice for a creature on account of pro-black. Solidarity Believer is strictly better. Do I worry about these matchups enough to weaken my aggro matchups slightly?
I'd really like to here some peoples experience concerning the viability of True Believer.
Or I could just run a splash and not worry about these slots...